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Abraham's Continuous Need for God's Grace

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If you are joining us for the first time, please be sure to read the previous posts in this series:

After this wonderful encounter with the Lord and Abraham has entered into a true saving relationship with the Lord, another ten years pass, but he still does not have an heir through Sarai. At that point, when he is now a born again believer, Sarai becomes quite impatient and urges him to take her Egyptian handmaid, Hagar, and have a son by her, who would then, according to the legal customs of that day and time, become Sarai’s child and Abraham’s male heir. At this point, Abraham was a born again believer in the Lord, but due to the pressure he felt from Sarai, his wife, he once again compromised and embraced the cultural practice of his day, versus waiting on the Lord to provide him a male heir through Sarai. Instead, he decided to make it happen in his own, corrupt, carnal, but culturally accepted way of his time. In the Law Code of Hammurabi, #’s 145-146, such a provision was made for a wife to provide her husband her maidservant whereby a child would be born:

“If a man take a wife, and she bear him no children, and he intend to take another wife: if he take this second wife, and bring her into the house, this second wife shall not be allowed equality with his wife. If a man take a wife and she give this man a maid-servant as wife and she bear him children, and then this maid assume equality with the wife: because she has borne him children her master shall not sell her for money, but he may keep her as a slave, reckoning her among the maid-servants”

Therefore, even though this was acceptable in the culture of the ANE at that time, it was not God’s directive for Abraham, who was now a born again believer, and because of this serious compromise of impatience, serious consequences occurred that are still with us today (i.e., the birth of Ishmael, who for the Muslims is the progenitor of their belief system).

After fifteen years have passed, the Lord tells Abraham that Sarai is going to conceive, but at 100 years of age, he cannot believe that can happen, and tells the Lord to please let Ishmael be his heir, but God says no, He is going to do it His way, the way beyond man’s ability, planning, and scheming:

15 Then God said to Abraham, “As for Sarai your wife, you shall not call her name Sarai, but Sarah shall be her name. 16 “And I will bless her, and indeed I will give you a son by her. Then I will bless her, and she shall be a mother of nations; kings of peoples shall come from her.” 17 Then Abraham fell on his face and laughed, and said in his heart, “Will a child be born to a man one hundred years old? And will Sarah, who is ninety years old, bear a child?” 18 And Abraham said to God, “Oh that Ishmael might live before Thee!” 19 But God said, “No, but Sarah your wife shall bear you a son, and you shall call his name Isaac; and I will establish My covenant with him for an everlasting covenant for his descendants after him. 20 “And as for Ishmael, I have heard you; behold, I will bless him, and will make him fruitful, and will multiply him exceedingly. He shall become the father of twelve princes, and I will make him a great nation. 21 “But My covenant I will establish with Isaac, whom Sarah will bear to you at this season next year.” 22 And when He finished talking with him, God went up from Abraham.
(Genesis 17:15-22)

Thus, the Lord had very different plans from Abraham’s limited perspective, even as a born again believer in the Lord, and God was going to carry his plan forward, even in the face of Abraham’s doubts and carnal, disbelieving, and disobedient compromises. However, one very interesting thing to note is that even in the midst of Abraham’s carnal and disbelieving failures, God was always faithful, even to the blessing of Ishmael, his son, who was indeed, as Paul says, the product of Abraham’s carnal, fleshly actions:

21 Tell me, you who want to be under law, do you not listen to the law? 22 For it is written that Abraham had two sons, one by the bondwoman and one by the free woman. 23 But the son by the bondwoman was born according to the flesh, and the son by the free woman through the promise. 24 This is allegorically speaking: for these women are two covenants, one proceeding from Mount Sinai bearing children who are to be slaves; she is Hagar. 25 Now this Hagar is Mount Sinai in Arabia, and corresponds to the present Jerusalem, for she is in slavery with her children. 26 But the Jerusalem above is free; she is our mother. 27 For it is written, “Rejoice, barren woman who does not bear; Break forth and shout, you who are not in labor; For more are the children of the desolate Than of the one who has a husband.” 28 And you brethren, like Isaac, are children of promise. 29 But as at that time he who was born according to the flesh persecuted him who was born according to the Spirit, so it is now also. 30 But what does the Scripture say? “Cast out the bondwoman and her son, For the son of the bondwoman shall not be an heir with the son of the free woman.” 31 So then, brethren, we are not children of a bondwoman, but of the free woman.
(Galatians 4:21-31)

The next compromising action of Abraham was a sin that he committed before he was born again, and that was to pass Sarah off has his sister, and this time it was to Abimelech, king of Gerar. However, the big difference here was that the Lord had visited Abraham with three angels who told Abrham and Sarah that within a year Sarah would give birth to a son. Thus, when Abraham went to Gerar, Sarah was very likely pregnant at the time:

1 Now Abraham journeyed from there toward the land of the Negev, and settled between Kadesh and Shur; then he sojourned in Gerar. 2 And Abraham said of Sarah his wife, “She is my sister.” So Abimelech king of Gerar sent and took Sarah. 3 But God came to Abimelech in a dream of the night, and said to him, “Behold, you are a dead man because of the woman whom you have taken, for she is married.” 4 Now Abimelech had not come near her; and he said, “Lord, wilt Thou slay a nation, even though blameless? 5 “Did he not himself say to me, ‘She is my sister ‘? And she herself said, ‘He is my brother.’ In the integrity of my heart and the innocence of my hands I have done this.” 6 Then God said to him in the dream, “Yes, I know that in the integrity of your heart you have done this, and I also kept you from sinning against Me; therefore I did not let you touch her. 7 “Now therefore, restore the man’s wife, for he is a prophet, and he will pray for you, and you will live. But if you do not restore her, know that you shall surely die, you and all who are yours.” 8 So Abimelech arose early in the morning and called all his servants and told all these things in their hearing; and the men were greatly frightened. 9 Then Abimelech called Abraham and said to him, “What have you done to us? And how have I sinned against you, that you have brought on me and on my kingdom a great sin? You have done to me things that ought not to be done.” 10 And Abimelech said to Abraham, “What have you encountered, that you have done this thing?” 11And Abraham said, “Because I thought, surely there is no fear of God in this place; and they will kill me because of my wife. 12 “Besides, she actually is my sister, the daughter of my father, but not the daughter of my mother, and she became my wife; 13 and it came about, when God caused me to wander from my father’s house, that I said to her, ‘This is the kindness which you will show to me: everywhere we go, say of me, “He is my brother.”‘” 14 Abimelech then took sheep and oxen and male and female servants, and gave them to Abraham, and restored his wife Sarah to him. 15 And Abimelech said, “Behold, my land is before you; settle wherever you please.” 16 And to Sarah he said, “Behold, I have given your brother a thousand pieces of silver; behold, it is your vindication before all who are with you, and before all men you are cleared.” 17 And Abraham prayed to God; and God healed Abimelech and his wife and his maids, so that they bore children. 18 For the LORD had closed fast all the wombs of the household of Abimelech because of Sarah, Abraham’s wife.
(Genesis 20:1-18)

Once again, even in the face of Abraham’s fearful, disbelieving, and carnal compromise, God sovereignly intervened and protected Abraham, Sarah, and his unborn child from a possible disaster. But it is vitally important to see that Abraham was a man of great weakness, even though he was indeed a born again believer from Genesis 15:6 forward. However, from this point forward, there is an intense breaking that takes place in Abraham, so that this fearful, disbelieving, and carnally motivated, born again believer begins to become a man of God who is committed to trusting God to the death, even the death of his promised heir, Isaac, and quite frankly, this work of sanctification in Abraham is the very same work of sanctification that God works in all of his children through His loving “discipline” in order that “we may share His holiness” (Hebrews 12:10).

We will discuss this transition in the next post. Stay tuned!

Comments

  1. With regard to the promised child, it is important to note that Isaac was to be the child of PROMISE. For him to be a miracle child, he had to have been born out of an impossible situation. Thus, God waits 13 years until Abraham is no longer productive. Therefore, both Abraham and Sarah are unable to produce a child when God steps up and causes Isaac to be born when neither Abraham or Sarah could have a baby.

  3. I asked a similar question on Justin’s last post and Justin replied the answer was to be found in Gal: 3 HNV. I never found the connection; maybe you might have more success.

    I understand the phrase “born again” to represent the regeneration of a believer’s spirit at the HOLY SPIRITS indwelling of our bodies, the new Temple and GODS new dwelling place on earth and the fulfillment of the New Covenant GOD made with Israel thru Yeshua Messiah, King of the Jews as found in Jer 31: 31-34 HNV. Calling Abraham “born again” is a bit of a stretch for me since GOD had as of yet instructed HIS earthly dwelling the Tabernacles/Temples “Mercy Seat” be built.

    J.

  4. the examples of Melchisedec and Abraham do not include baptism. Does this indicate they are not able to enter the kingdom of God?

    Hbr 7, 1Pe 1:12, Luk 16:21-31
    1Cr 10:1 Moreover, brethren, I would not that ye should be ignorant, how that all our fathers were under the cloud, and all passed through the sea;
    1Cr 10:2 And were all baptized unto Moses in the cloud and in the sea;
    1Cr 10:3 And did all eat the same spiritual meat;
    1Cr 10:4 And did all drink the same spiritual drink: for they drank of that spiritual Rock that followed them: and that Rock was Christ.
    1Cr 10:5 But with many of them God was not well pleased: for they were overthrown in the wilderness.
    1Cr 10:6 Now these things were our examples, to the intent we should not lust after evil things, as they also lusted.

    This world only exists to prove the words spoken before the world began yet all have opportunity to partake of divine blessing.

    Jhn 17:5 And now, O Father, glorify thou me with thine own self with the glory which I had with thee before the world was.

  5. After reading Justin’s comments about Abraham being “born again,” I, too, had to stop and do some thinking because I had never heard this before either, and it does sound strange. We know that being born again is being born from above or being born of God, and it happens when we accept God’s call upon our lives. Because each one of us living today took this step after Christ died, an event that would allow for the promised Holy Spirit to indwell each person who makes that commitment, we just naturally assume that the two experiences, being born again and being filled with the Holy Spirit, happen simultaneously, that they are just two parts of the same one event. I now think that they are not, that they are separate. When we stop to think about what being born from above actually means, the only answer is that a person has accepted, by faith, God’s plan of salvation, something Abraham most certainly did as did Moses, Joshua, Ruth, and so many others in the OT. I also got to thinking that if the indwelling Spirit is the deciding factor as to whether one is saved, then where does that leave the Apostles? Do we say that they weren’t really saved because they hadn’t received the indwelling Holy Spirit prior to Pentecost, that they didn’t accept God’s call upon their lives, that they weren’t following Christ? I don’t think any of us would say that. Any thoughts?

    Barbara

    • Dear Barbara:
      Believe it or not, I am finally going to respond to your many critiques and questions as I have finally gotten some ‘breathing room’ in my schedule. This is going to be a very long response, but here goes. First of all, let me say with regard to “eternal salvation” or “temporal salvation,” you, Barbara, have every right to believe that you, Barbara, can effectively lose your salvation. However, I must tell you that I cannot, and the reason I cannot is based on the foregoing Scriptures I have attempted to present in the previous Blogs. However, this is not some intellectual exercise, arguing different philosophical concepts such as Kant’s “Critique of Pure Reason” in comparison to Hegel’s “The Phenomenology of the Mind,” but rather this is based on the spiritual reality that God alone can make real in our hearts and minds our eternal relationship with Him, which I am sure is what you believe as well (I Corinthians 2:1-16). On the other hand, as we as born again believers approach the Scripture, we all have different ‘grids’ of understanding through which we look at and interpret the Scripture based on a variety of factors. For example, with reference to eschatology, there are those who tend to interpret every, major, world event as THE SIGN THAT JESUS IS RETURNING WITHIN THE NEXT YEAR! This is based on a great many approaches to reading and understanding prophecies in the Bible that pertain to Jesus’ second coming, but in all such cases where people have tried to interpret current events as sure evidence that Jesus’ coming is next week, next month, or next year, THEY HAVE ALL BEEN WORNG FOR THE PAST 2000 YEARS! There are two very simple verses that give us direction as to what our approach toward eschatology should be:
      (1) Matthew 24:36: “But of that day and hour no one knows, not even the angels of heaven, nor the Son, but the Father alone” (Matthew 24:36).
      (2) Acts 1:6-8: “And so when they had come together, they were asking Him, saying, “Lord, is it at this time You are restoring the kingdom to Israel?” 7 He said to them, “It is not for you to know times or epochs which the Father has fixed by His own authority; 8 but you shall receive power when the Holy Spirit has come upon you; and you shall be My witnesses both in Jerusalem, and in all Judea and Samaria, and even to the remotest part of the earth” (Acts 1:6-8).
      Thus, Jesus clearly says “It is not for you to know times or epochs which the Father has fixed by His own authority,” but consistently, there are pastors and teachers who persist in doing just that, and that is to try and “know the times and epochs which the Father has fixed by His own authority” so as to determine when Jesus is coming back. But as stated above, from Montanus in the second century AD to modern pastors and teachers today, some who are very well known, they have every right and privilege to believe and teach that they think they know either specifically or in general when Jesus is returning, BUT THEY ARE ALL WRONG, and they are giving out wrong information. In the early eighties, I was in a church for a brief time where a very well-known pastor made a prediction that Jesus was coming back that following year because of his understanding of what he thought a “generation” meant in Matthew 24:34. I knew he was wrong, but I prayed for him and the congregation, and the following year when we were all still around, I had numbers of people coming to me who were confused and perplexed. I simply shared with them the above Scriptures and told them to live their lives daily as though His coming was that day, but to plan their lives as though His coming was a life-time away. Thus, here too, with regard to eternal salvation, versus temporal salvation, I firmly believe, as firmly as I believe in the inspiration of the Scripture, the deity of Jesus Christ, and the eternality of God, that for those individuals who have truly been born again, what Jesus said in John 10:28 is unequivocally true and unalterable. In contrast, for those who believe a true, born again believer can lose their salvation, I see that position as equally misdirected and incorrect as that of those who are continually attempting to guess and determine when Jesus is going to return.
      Having stated that position, therefore, I am now going to address your questions one by one, and I will do my very best to answer all of them as clearly and thoroughly as possible. On 10/10/12, you sent a post indicating you had asked me questions on the September 19, 26, and October 4, 2012, and I will address those.
      9/26/12 – On this post, you said you responded to Dee with: “four of the numerous examples that I found that demonstrate that believers can very much lose their salvation. So far, not one person who believes that a true believer cannot lose his or her salvation has given even one reasonable argument to contradict my findings.”
      1. Therefore, in the first one you give some 20 verses that you believe indicate that one who has been born again can lose their salvation, and we will look at them individually:
      (a) Matthew 6:9-15: “Pray, then, in this way: ‘Our Father who art in heaven, Hallowed be Thy name. 10 ‘Thy kingdom come. Thy will be done, On earth as it is in heaven. 11 ‘Give us this day our daily bread. 12 ‘And forgive us our debts, as we also have forgiven our debtors. 13 ‘And do not lead us into temptation, but deliver us from evil. For Thine is the kingdom, and the power, and the glory, forever. Amen.’ 14 “For if you forgive men for their transgressions, your heavenly Father will also forgive you. 15 “But if you do not forgive men, then your Father will not forgive your transgressions.” Barbara, the first thing I must say to you is that I perceive you are very sincere, but it appears that you are sincerely misdirected into a very legalistic, blinded, pseudo, self-righteous view of your salvation that is very much works-based. Indeed, the importance of forgiveness cannot in any way be diminished in our lives, and without any hesitation, I can tell you that for anyone who is a true believer in Jesus Christ, this truth will become a part of their lives. However, there are times in all of our lives when we harbor anger and resentment toward someone as a believer, but in the process of God’s sanctifying work, He will convict us as His children and bring us, through His loving discipline, to a place of “holiness” with regard to forgiving others, as I can attest in my own heart and life. On the other hand, what if someone who is a believer is harboring anger toward someone over a recent incident and they are killed in a car wreck. Is it your belief that they will then go to hell? If indeed that is your belief, then your and my belief are astronomically apart with regard to God’s grace in the face of the untold multitude of our sins that we do not even know about as believers in Jesus Christ. I have heard that concept preached by holiness groups over my lifetime, and it is, without any doubt, a works oriented belief that is false, and it produces a false sense of holiness and spiritual pride that blinds those who embrace that belief to other sins in their lives that they cannot even see. So, in short, I fully reject your theological approach to this Scripture, and I see your perspective on this particular verse as a pure, unadulterated, works-based approached to salvation, that is tragically blind to the depth of God’s saving and disciplining grace for His children. On the other hand, I have been around people who have been “professing believers,” and who at the same time harbor deep resentment and hatred toward others for various reasons. I have observed over the years that those people’s lives are wrecked spiritually, mentally, emotionally, and even physically by that hatred, and in times past when I tried to talk with them about God’s great forgiveness of their sins and their need to respond in like manner to those who have hurt them, quite frequently I would be cussed out and belittled in some way. Once again, God alone knows the heart of men and women, and all I can say of people such as that is that there was certainly no fruit in their lives of a relationship with Jesus, even though they claimed to be a believer in Him. But as I said earlier, I have also seen those who I know are believers, including myself, who God has convicted about unforgiveness in their lives toward others, and they, including myself, have repented of that sin, are walking in forgiveness of those who hurt them, and are experiencing Jesus’ victory in their lives. The difference, once again, that I see in this passage about forgiveness, as well as in all of the other passages you reference, is that for a true believer, God’s sanctifying work will produce His desired fruit in His time in their life, but for the non-believing “church member,” that change will never occur, regardless of their “outward show.”

      (b) Matthew 18:21-35: “Then Peter came and said to Him, “Lord, how often shall my brother sin against me and I forgive him? Up to seven times?” 22 Jesus said to him, “I do not say to you, up to seven times, but up to seventy times seven. 23 “For this reason the kingdom of heaven may be compared to a certain king who wished to settle accounts with his slaves. 24 “And when he had begun to settle them, there was brought to him one who owed him ten thousand talents. 25 “But since he did not have the means to repay, his lord commanded him to be sold, along with his wife and children and all that he had, and repayment to be made. 26 “The slave therefore falling down, prostrated himself before him, saying, ‘Have patience with me, and I will repay you everything.’ 27 “And the lord of that slave felt compassion and released him and forgave him the debt. 28 “But that slave went out and found one of his fellow slaves who owed him a hundred denarii; and he seized him and began to choke him, saying, ‘Pay back what you owe.’ 29 “So his fellow slave fell down and began to entreat him, saying, ‘Have patience with me and I will repay you.’ 30 “He was unwilling however, but went and threw him in prison until he should pay back what was owed. 31 “So when his fellow slaves saw what had happened, they were deeply grieved and came and reported to their lord all that had happened. 32 “Then summoning him, his lord said to him, ‘You wicked slave, I forgave you all that debt because you entreated me. 33 ‘Should you not also have had mercy on your fellow slave, even as I had mercy on you?’ 34 “And his lord, moved with anger, handed him over to the torturers until he should repay all that was owed him. 35 “So shall My heavenly Father also do to you, if each of you does not forgive his brother from your heart.” This is in essence the same as the previous passage in Matthew 6, and my response would be the same. I do believe, Barbara, that your perspective is quite distorted with regard to the grace of God in relation to His children, and especially so with regard to the whole process of sanctification that God works in our lives. However, as I said initially, you have every right to put yourself under this type of legalistic, distorted, Pharisaical, and grace-blinded pursuit whereby you are attempting to establish your own righteousness, but it is entirely misdirected. On the other hand, as the Holy Spirit leads us into walking in this level of forgiveness, it is by His grace and power that we do it, and I personally take no credit in my life, whatsoever, for this truth that He has made real to me, but I do know that He has enabled me to walk in forgiveness, and because of His love in me that cleanses and sets me free, I must choose daily, by the indwelling power of His Holy Spirit, to walk in this forgiveness that He has made real in my heart because I am His child, and I really have no other choice as a result of the love relationship I have with Jesus.

      (c) John 8:31-32: “Jesus therefore was saying to those Jews who had believed Him, ‘If you abide in My word, then you are truly disciples of Mine; 32 and you shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you free.’” Barbara, as I read this verse, knowing that you are using this as a verse to support your view that one who is a true believer in Jesus Christ can lose their salvation, my heart breaks for you because you are apparently living under an incredible, self-made, ungodly bondage that has nothing to do with the liberating truth we have in knowing Jesus as our Lord and Savior, but rather it appears you are in a self-deceptive, works orientated perspective of salvation. First of all, this verse has many ramifications, but I will attempt to deal with three specific ones that I hope will be helpful:
      [1] I would assume that you are saying, with reference to one who is truly a believer in Jesus and can subsequently lose their salvation, that it is possible for one to truly believe, but then not “abide in Jesus’ Word,” with the result being that they would in turn not “truly be disciples of His.” Once again, Barbara, your works-based approached is tragic for not only yourself, but also for others who may be influenced by your comments of what I consider to be a misdirected theology. There are, as the parable of the sower indicates, a “rooted” belief that is indicative of someone who has truly been born again, and there is the ‘superficial, emotional’ belief that is not that of a truly born again believer, and both of these are very real in real life (Luke 8:4-15). It is also interesting that in the Book of James, 2:19, we read the following: “You believe that God is one. You do well; the demons also believe, and shudder.” The word for “believe” in this instance is pisteuousin, which is an ongoing and continuous belief, but it is obviously not a “rooted” belief, if you will, of a born again relationship with Jesus by “demons.” Rather, it is an intellectual and cognizant belief that God is who He says He is, but there is certainly no faith commitment on the “demons” part to follow Him as their Lord and Savior as a result of having been born again.
      [2] Secondly, I am assuming that you are saying that being a “disciple” of Jesus is equivalent with being a born again believer in Jesus, and that is not an unreasonable assumption. However, in looking at how the word “disciple” is used in the New Testament, we do find what I consider to be some interesting parallels once again with the parable of the sower. In the synoptic Gospels (Matthew, Mark, & Luke), they each give a list of the “disciples” of Jesus, including Judas Iscariot (Matthew 10:1-4; Mark 3:13-19; & Luke 6:12-16). However, John’s Gospel has no such list, but he does make mention of nine of the “disciples” (Peter, Andrew, James and John [sons of Zebedee], Philip, Nathaniel [who is also considered by many, including myself, to be a reference to Bartholomew], Thomas, James [son of Alphaeus], and Judas Iscariot). Now what is important to note, is that Judas is listed as a “disciple” among the other “disciples” of Jesus in the Synoptics, but in each case there is what we would call a ‘parenthetical note’ stating that Judas was the one who betrayed Jesus (Matthew 10:4; Mark 3:19; & Luke 6:16). In John’s Gospel, at the end of Jesus’ discussion about “eating My flesh and drinking My blood” (John 6:52-59), we are presented with the following account of what happened subsequently:

      Many therefore of His disciples, when they heard this said, “This is a difficult statement; who can listen to it?” 61 But Jesus, conscious that His disciples grumbled at this, said to them, “Does this cause you to stumble? 62 “What then if you should behold the Son of Man ascending where He was before? 63 “It is the Spirit who gives life; the flesh profits nothing; the words that I have spoken to you are spirit and are life. 64 “But there are some of you who do not believe.” For Jesus knew from the beginning who they were who did not believe, and who it was that would betray Him. 65 And He was saying, “For this reason I have said to you, that no one can come to Me, unless it has been granted him from the Father.” 66 As a result of this many of His disciples withdrew, and were not walking with Him anymore. 67 Jesus said therefore to the twelve, “You do not want to go away also, do you?” 68 Simon Peter answered Him, “Lord, to whom shall we go? You have words of eternal life. 69 “And we have believed and have come to know that You are the Holy One of God.” 70 Jesus answered them, “Did I Myself not choose you, the twelve, and yet one of you is a devil?” 71 Now He meant Judas the son of Simon Iscariot, for he, one of the twelve, was going to betray Him. (Joh 6:60 NAS)

      There were indeed a number of people who were following Jesus who were termed “His disciples,” but their “belief” in Him, however, was not a “rooted” belief, but rather a ‘superficial, emotional’ belief that was only temporary, like the second soil (Luke 8:6 & 13). Those whom the “Father has drawn to Jesus” (John 6:44) are the ones who truly believe unto eternal life because “it has been granted him (them) from the Father.” The phrase, “has been granted,” is in the perfect tense, which indicates a completed act at some point in the past with an ongoing, continuous result. Thus, for those whom the Father has drawn to Jesus through conviction of their sin, the righteousness of Jesus, and the reality of the eternal judgment awaiting them if they refuse Christ (John 16:8-11), and these call out to Jesus in repentance and faith, receiving Him as their Lord and Savior (Romans 10:8-13), they have thus, been given “the right to become children of God, even to those who believe in His name, 13 who were born not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God” (John 1:12-13), and the result of that “rooted” belief is an ongoing and continuous relationship with their Heavenly Father into eternity (John 10:27-29). Judas, therefore, as well as many others, was one of Jesus’ “disciples,” but, as stated above about the other disciples, “many of His disciples withdrew, and were not walking with Him anymore” (John 6:66), so too did Jesus eventually “betray Him” because even though he was a “disciple,” he was in no way a “rooted” disciple, but was in the same category as the other “disciples” who “were not walking with Him anymore.”
      [3] This brings us to the third and final point, and that is Jesus’ statement again in John 8:31-32: “If you abide in My word, then you are truly disciples of Mine; 32 and you shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you free.” The phrase, “if you abide,” implies the potential of those to whom He is speaking of “not abiding.” The word “abide” in Greek is meno, and it means “to remain, persist, and continue to live,” and in this instance it is in the present tense, indicating an ongoing, continuous action, which involves repentance and brokenness over one’s sins through God’s loving discipline all throughout our lives as His children, wherein we are thereby enabled to “share His holiness” (Hebrews 12:10). Thus, those who do “abide in His word” are those who have a “rooted” belief in Him, and they have that rooted belief because the Father “drew” them to Jesus (John 6:44) and He “granted” or gave to them the ability to believe and call on the name of Jesus for their salvation, and they did, and at that moment for them, they were numbered with Jesus’ sheep of John 10:27-28: “My sheep hear My voice, and I know them, and they follow Me; 28 and I give eternal life to them, and they shall never perish; and no one shall snatch them out of My hand” (John 10:27-28). The other very important aspect of John 8:31-32 is the word “truly,” which is an adverb, describing what kind of a “disciple” is the one who “abides in His word,” and it is an “actual, real, and true disciple,” versus a “superficial disciple” whose belief is only “for a while” because it “has no root” (Luke 8:13). The result being that for these “true disciples,” they will in turn “know the truth, and the truth will set them free.”
      There is much more that could be said, but this is sufficient at this time, and once again, I hope this will be helpful and beneficial to you and others.

      (d) John 8:51: “Truly, truly, I say to you, if anyone keeps My word he shall never see death.” In your quote on the Blog, you quoted John 8:51 in this way, “Verily, verily, I say unto you, IF a man keep my saying, he shall never see death.” I indeed hope John 8:51 is the verse you were pointing to, but if it was not, I have no idea what you wrote represents. At any rate, I will address John 8:51 in the text. In this instance, the word “keeps” is what is called an aorist subjunctive, with the subjunctive implying the possibility of someone not “keeping” Jesus’ word. On the other hand, the aorist in this particular aspect would be indicating a view of the totality of one’s life as a believer, which would include, once again, brokenness and repentance over one’s sins and failures as a believer, brought about by and through God’s loving discipline for His children, whereby one is then enabled, as a true, born again believer in Jesus Christ, to “share His holiness” (Hebrews 12:10). Therefore, everything I shared with regard to John 8:31-32 applies here as well.

      (e) John 15:5-6: “I am the vine, you are the branches; he who abides in Me, and I in him, he bears much fruit; for apart from Me you can do nothing. 6 “If anyone does not abide in Me, he is thrown away as a branch, and dries up; and they gather them, and cast them into the fire, and they are burned.” Here again, what I would say concerning this passage has already been covered in John 8:31-32, with the addition that the word “abides” is a present participle, indicating an ongoing, continuous action, which would include, as stated previously, brokenness and repentance over one’s sins and failures as a believer, brought about by and through God’s loving discipline for His children, whereby one is then enabled, as a true, born again believer in Jesus Christ, to “share His holiness” (Hebrews 12:10).

      (f) Romans 8:13: “for if you are living according to the flesh, you must die; but if by the Spirit you are putting to death the deeds of the body, you will live.” I want to quote this passage in its context, which if quite important: “So then, brethren, we are under obligation, not to the flesh, to live according to the flesh– 13 for if you are living according to the flesh, you must die; but if by the Spirit you are putting to death the deeds of the body, you will live. 14 For all who are being led by the Spirit of God, these are sons of God. 15 For you have not received a spirit of slavery leading to fear again, but you have received a spirit of adoption as sons by which we cry out, “Abba! Father!” 16 The Spirit Himself bears witness with our spirit that we are children of God, 17 and if children, heirs also, heirs of God and fellow heirs with Christ, if indeed we suffer with Him in order that we may also be glorified with Him” (Romans 8:12-17). Verses 16 and 17 are essentially important for this passage as a whole, because as God’s children, “The Spirit Himself continually bears witness with our spirit that we are children of God,” and I put the word “continually” in there because that is what the word “bears” is indicating as a present tense verb – that is, as a true, born again believer, even in our sins and failures, the Holy Spirit convicts us, brings to a place of brokenness and repentance, and through God’s loving discipline, we turn from the “flesh” and its carnal appetites, and we turn to “denying ourselves, and take up our crosses daily, and following Jesus” (Luke 9:23). This is, therefore, an ongoing and continuous walk, in that as we grow in Jesus, we discover sins in our lives that we didn’t even know were sins, and this is the process of God’s continuous sanctification in our lives as His children, which end is expressed in the following passage:

      You have not yet resisted to the point of shedding blood in your striving against sin; 5 and you have forgotten the exhortation which is addressed to you as sons, “My son, do not regard lightly the discipline of the Lord, Nor faint when you are reproved by Him; 6 For those whom the Lord loves He disciplines, And He scourges every son whom He receives.” 7 It is for discipline that you endure; God deals with you as with sons; for what son is there whom his father does not discipline? 8 But if you are without discipline, of which all have become partakers, then you are illegitimate children and not sons. 9 Furthermore, we had earthly fathers to discipline us, and we respected them; shall we not much rather be subject to the Father of spirits, and live? 10 For they disciplined us for a short time as seemed best to them, but He disciplines us for our good, that we may share His holiness. 11 All discipline for the moment seems not to be joyful, but sorrowful; yet to those who have been trained by it, afterwards it yields the peaceful fruit of righteousness. (Hebrews 12:4-11)

      On the other hand, for those who makes a profession of belief in Jesus, but they are “continually living according to the flesh (the verb “living” is in the present tense, and is implying an ongoing, continuous action),” which means there is no fruit of a changed life at all, which would include, once again, a continuous brokenness and repentance over one’s sins as the Holy Spirit convicts and brings about God’s loving discipline in one’s life, but rather there are merely words in the face of an ongoing worldly lifestyle of open rebellion to the Lord, then that person will in turn reap the consequences of their disbelief and ‘superficial belief’, which will be eternal separation from God. What is interesting about the phrase in Romans 8:13, “you must die,” is that it is in the present tense, indicating the following interpretive translation, “you must continually experience death,” which would imply a “death” here without really knowing Jesus as one’s Lord and Savior (thus, “living according to the flesh”), as well as the “eternal death” of being separated from God in hell (Revelation 20:11-15).
      Again, much more could be said, but this is sufficient, and I hope it is helpful for you.

      (g) Romans 8:17: “and if children, heirs also, heirs of God and fellow heirs with Christ, if indeed we suffer with Him in order that we may also be glorified with Him.” I answered this verse above in Romans 8:13 with the whole contextual passage.

      (h) Romans 11:22: “Behold then the kindness and severity of God; to those who fell, severity, but to you, God’s kindness, if you continue in His kindness; otherwise you also will be cut off.” Once again, this verse needs to be seen in its context:

      But if some of the branches were broken off, and you, being a wild olive, were grafted in among them and became partaker with them of the rich root of the olive tree, 18 do not be arrogant toward the branches; but if you are arrogant, remember that it is not you who supports the root, but the root supports you. 19 You will say then, “Branches were broken off so that I might be grafted in.” 20 Quite right, they were broken off for their unbelief, but you stand by your faith. Do not be conceited, but fear; 21 for if God did not spare the natural branches, neither will He spare you. 22 Behold then the kindness and severity of God; to those who fell, severity, but to you, God’s kindness, if you continue in His kindness; otherwise you also will be cut off. 23 And they also, if they do not continue in their unbelief, will be grafted in; for God is able to graft them in again. 24 For if you were cut off from what is by nature a wild olive tree, and were grafted contrary to nature into a cultivated olive tree, how much more shall these who are the natural branches be grafted into their own olive tree? (Romans 11:17-24)

      Paul is here writing about the Jews who disbelieved in Jesus and the Gentiles who have believed in Him as their Lord and Savior. Thus, in verse 22, we read, “Behold then the kindness and severity of God; to those who fell, severity, but to you, God’s kindness, if you continue in His kindness; otherwise you also will be cut off,” with the word “continue” in the Greek being epimenes, which is a present subjunctive verb, implying the possibility that those to whom he is writing have the potential of not “continuing in His kindness.” The word epimenes is made up of two Greek words: epi, which is a preposition meaning “on, upon, or in,” and meno, a verb, meaning “to remain, persist, and continue to live,” which is the same as John 8:31-32 above. Thus, when put together, epimeno means “to continue in, persist in, and persevere in an activity or state,” and in this instance, that “state” would be the “kindness” of God. And as I pointed out above, it is in the present tense, which indicates an ongoing and continuous action, but with the important aspect as has continually been stated, a continuous brokenness and repentance over one’s sins as the Holy Spirit convicts and brings about God’s loving discipline in one’s life, whereby one is enabled to “share His holiness” (Hebrews 12:10). Thus, as Paul is writing this incredibly important epistle, chapter 11 is a summation of chapters 9-10, and he is emphasizing the importance of one walking in the truth of one’s relationship with Jesus, versus walking in a lie, as Romans 8:12-17 above indicates. This verse in particular brings me back to my days at Mississippi State, when as a new believer who happened to be a football player, I was being invited to go and speak at churches in the area. There was a passage that God had given me as I was reading and studying His Word, and it was II Corinthians 13:5: “Test yourselves to see if you are in the faith; examine yourselves! Or do you not recognize this about yourselves, that Jesus Christ is in you– unless indeed you fail the test?” At that time, almost everyone in the South went to church, but not everyone had a saving relationship with Jesus, as was my case until I got saved my freshman year. However, as I would go out and give my testimony, the Lord continually gave me this verse to speak from, and I saw two Methodist preachers, a Baptist preacher, several deacons and Sunday School teachers come to Christ for the very first time as a result of my speaking from that verse and giving my testimony! It was amazing, but I soon realized as a young believer, that “church membership” was no assurance, and neither was one’s “position” in a church an attestation of one’s salvation, but only one thing could give that assurance, and that was a genuine, real, and authentic born again relationship with Jesus as Jesus described in John 3:1-8:

      Now there was a man of the Pharisees, named Nicodemus, a ruler of the Jews; 2 this man came to Him by night, and said to Him, “Rabbi, we know that You have come from God as a teacher; for no one can do these signs that You do unless God is with him.” 3 Jesus answered and said to him, “Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God.” 4 Nicodemus said to Him, “How can a man be born when he is old? He cannot enter a second time into his mother’s womb and be born, can he?” 5 Jesus answered, “Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is born of water and the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God. 6 “That which is born of the flesh is flesh, and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit. 7 “Do not marvel that I said to you, ‘You must be born again.’ 8 “The wind blows where it wishes and you hear the sound of it, but do not know where it comes from and where it is going; so is everyone who is born of the Spirit.” (John 3:1-8)

      Once again, I hope this helps to answer your question on this verse.

      (i) Galatians 6:9: “And let us not lose heart in doing good, for in due time we shall reap if we do not grow weary.” Once again, this verse needs to be seen in its context:

      Brethren, even if a man is caught in any trespass, you who are spiritual, restore such a one in a spirit of gentleness; each one looking to yourself, lest you too be tempted. 2 Bear one another’s burdens, and thus fulfill the law of Christ. 3 For if anyone thinks he is something when he is nothing, he deceives himself. 4 But let each one examine his own work, and then he will have reason for boasting in regard to himself alone, and not in regard to another. 5 For each one shall bear his own load. 6 And let the one who is taught the word share all good things with him who teaches. 7 Do not be deceived, God is not mocked; for whatever a man sows, this he will also reap. 8 For the one who sows to his own flesh shall from the flesh reap corruption, but the one who sows to the Spirit shall from the Spirit reap eternal life. 9 And let us not lose heart in doing good, for in due time we shall reap if we do not grow weary. 10 So then, while we have opportunity, let us do good to all men, and especially to those who are of the household of the faith. (Galatians 6:1-10)

      Barbara, as I stated at the beginning of this response, you have every right to believe that you can lose your salvation, and even to live in continuous doubt as to whether or not you have committed a sin that will negate your salvation and send you to hell. However, as I stated, not only do I not believe that, I cannot believe that because of the whole of Scripture that asserts the absolute opposite. And as I initially stated, I really hurt for you and the legalistic, pseudo-form of self-righteousness that you have apparently placed yourself in, which is robbing you of the peace, joy, freedom, liberty, and assurance Christ came to give us, and for you to interpret this verse as one that indicates you can lose your salvation really grieves me for you. In this passage, Paul is talking about a host of things, including restoring someone who has fallen into sin, “looking to yourself, lest you too be tempted.” Now Barbara, you may view this as a true, born again believer losing his or her salvation, but I absolutely do not. I see it as a ministry to a believer who has fallen into Satan’s trap, as can all of us, and Paul is exhorting us as believers to reach out to this brother or sister and, by the power of the indwelling Holy Spirit, “continue to restore such a one in a spirit of gentleness, each one looking to yourself, lest you too be tempted.” He then is talking about each one of us not being deceived by pride and arrogance, but rather walking humbly before God and man, and realize that each of us is responsible for our own walk with the Lord. He then says we ought to minister to those who minister to us God’s Word, and he then warns us about not being deceived about our relationship with the Lord in how we live: “Do not be deceived, God is not mocked; for whatever a man sows, this he will also reap. 8 For the one who sows to his own flesh shall from the flesh reap corruption, but the one who sows to the Spirit shall from the Spirit reap eternal life.” In verse 7, the word “sows” is in the present tense, implying a continuous, ongoing lifestyle of worldly, fleshly, living in open rebellion to the Lord, and in verse 8, the word “sows” is also in the present tense, and it is talking about a ongoing lifestyle of values, whereby one is either “continuously sowing to his own flesh,” or one is continuously sowing to the Spirit,” and in each instance, as just stated, these represent a lifestyle. However, with the lifestyle of “continuously sowing to the Spirit,” this unequivocally includes a continuous brokenness and repentance over one’s sins as the Holy Spirit convicts and brings about God’s loving discipline in one’s life, whereby one is enabled to “share His holiness” (Hebrews 12:10). Thus, when we come to verse 9, Paul is saying that as we continue to walk in all of the things he has just been talking about in the previous 8 verses, we shall see God’s victory in our lives, as well as the lives of others, but for us to see that victory, we must not give into Satan’s trap of becoming “weary,” or more literally, “being made weary” by Satan’s spiritual, mental, emotional, and even physical assaults, whereby self-pity, bitterness, jealousy, resentment for not being recognized or appreciated for helping and ministering to others, etc. Now once again, Barbara, if you choose to see this verse referring to you losing your salvation, then you have every right to do so, but you are entirely wrong, and I grieve for you and the bondage you have placed yourself because of your incorrect and misguided interpretation and legalistic entrapment. As believers in Christ, we have all at some point or other “been made weary” with the trials, pressures, failures, and discouragements we have faced, perhaps even to the point of not wanting to go on with life. When I was a young believer at Mississippi State, this happened to me when they fired the entire Athletic Department after my Sophomore year. I had the opportunity as a Senior in High School to go and play for Bear Bryant at Alabama, but I chose State, and when they fired everyone, for the first time in my life, I experienced real depression. It was at that time I read the following passage, and it set me free:

      Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Father of mercies and God of all comfort; 4 who comforts us in all our affliction so that we may be able to comfort those who are in any affliction with the comfort with which we ourselves are comforted by God. 5 For just as the sufferings of Christ are ours in abundance, so also our comfort is abundant through Christ. 6 But if we are afflicted, it is for your comfort and salvation; or if we are comforted, it is for your comfort, which is effective in the patient enduring of the same sufferings which we also suffer; 7 and our hope for you is firmly grounded, knowing that as you are sharers of our sufferings, so also you are sharers of our comfort. 8 For we do not want you to be unaware, brethren, of our affliction which came to us in Asia, that we were burdened excessively, beyond our strength, so that we despaired even of life; 9 indeed, we had the sentence of death within ourselves in order that we should not trust in ourselves, but in God who raises the dead; 10 who delivered us from so great a peril of death, and will deliver us, He on whom we have set our hope. And He will yet deliver us, (II Corinthians 1:3-10)

      This entire passage set me free, as I realized that Paul the Apostle and those with him came to a point where they wanted to die, but it was all part of God’s plan in order to bring them to a point of death to themselves, “in order that we should not trust in ourselves, but in God who raises the dead.” That is what God began to do in my life, and He has continue to do so over these past 47 1/2 years I have been walking with the Lord.

      (j) Colossians 1:21-23: “And although you were formerly alienated and hostile in mind, engaged in evil deeds, 22 yet He has now reconciled you in His fleshly body through death, in order to present you before Him holy and blameless and beyond reproach– 23 if indeed you continue in the faith firmly established and steadfast, and not moved away from the hope of the gospel that you have heard, which was proclaimed in all creation under heaven, and of which I, Paul, was made a minister.” Barbara, once again, I grieve for you in your thinking that this passage indicates that you, Barbara LeFevre, can lose your salvation, but once again, that is your right and privilege to do so. Verse 23 is once again speaking about those who are mere ‘professors’, not ‘possessors’ of the “faith.” The word for “continue” in verse 23 is epimeno that we talked about in Romans 11:22, and here too, it is in the present tense, meaning “to continue in, persist in, and persevere in an activity or state,” and here, that state is the “faith.” What is equal importance is that the phrase “firmly established” is from the one Greek word tethemeliomenoi, and it is a perfect passive participle, indicating an action that was completed in the past by someone else, but with an ongoing and continuous result. Thus, as we read Hebrews 12:1-2, we discover just who initially established this faith in the hearts and minds of true believers: “Therefore, since we have so great a cloud of witnesses surrounding us, let us also lay aside every encumbrance, and the sin which so easily entangles us, and let us run with endurance the race that is set before us, 2 fixing our eyes on Jesus, the author and perfecter of faith, who for the joy set before Him endured the cross, despising the shame, and has sat down at the right hand of the throne of God” (Hebrews 12:1-2). Jesus is both the “author and perfecter of faith” for all of those who have been truly born again, but for those who have not, they know nothing of Him in a personal relationship with Him as their Lord and Savior. The only thing they know of is an appeal to their works, which is what Jesus describes in the following passage: “Not everyone who says to Me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter the kingdom of heaven; but he who does the will of My Father who is in heaven. 22 “Many will say to Me on that day, ‘Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in Your name, and in Your name cast out demons, and in Your name perform many miracles?’ 23 “And then I will declare to them, ‘I never knew you; depart from Me, you who practice lawlessness” (Matthew 7:21-23). Thus, those who have been “firmly established” in the faith are those in whom Jesus is both the “author and perfecter” of their faith, and the ongoing, continuous result will be a life that presses on in Christ, through all of their ups and downs, their sorrows and disappointments, and their failures and mistakes, accompanied by their continued brokenness and repentance over those failures and mistakes, and then walking in the victory of Jesus in their lives, made possible by God’s loving discipline, whereby, through the indwelling power of the Holy Spirit, they are enabled to “share His holiness” (Hebrews 12:10).

      (k) I Thessalonians 3:6-8: “But now that Timothy has come to us from you, and has brought us good news of your faith and love, and that you always think kindly of us, longing to see us just as we also long to see you, 7 for this reason, brethren, in all our distress and affliction we were comforted about you through your faith; 8 for now we really live, if you stand firm in the Lord.” This last phrase in verse 8, “if you stand firm in the Lord,” is a repeat of the truth just stated above in Colossians 1:21-23, with the addition that the phrase, “stand firm” is the present tense verb in Greek, stekete, which implies an ongoing, continuous action.

      (l) II Timothy 2:8-13: “Remember Jesus Christ, risen from the dead, descendant of David, according to my gospel, 9 for which I suffer hardship even to imprisonment as a criminal; but the word of God is not imprisoned. 10 For this reason I endure all things for the sake of those who are chosen, that they also may obtain the salvation which is in Christ Jesus and with it eternal glory. 11 It is a trustworthy statement: For if we died with Him, we shall also live with Him; 12 If we endure, we shall also reign with Him; If we deny Him, He also will deny us; 13 If we are faithless, He remains faithful; for He cannot deny Himself.” This whole passage needs to be read in context, as Paul says of himself, “I endure all things for the sake of those who are chosen, that they also may obtain the salvation which is in Christ Jesus and with it eternal glory.” The “chosen” are those whom God “chose us in Him (i.e., in Christ – my note) before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and blameless before Him” (Ephesians 1:4). Thus, because of God’s having “chosen” His children, He knows from the very beginning what their choices will be, etc., but most importantly He knows them, and these are the “sheep” Jesus is speaking of in John 10:27-28: “My sheep hear My voice, and I know them, and they follow Me; 28 and I give eternal life to them, and they shall never perish; and no one shall snatch them out of My hand.” Consequently, those who might “deny” Jesus are of the second soil (Luke 8:6 & 13), and whose faith Jesus is not the “author and perfecter” (Hebrews 12:2). Again, this is a repeat of all that has been said before in Colossians 1:21-23, et al.

      (m) Hebrews 3:1-6: “Therefore, holy brethren, partakers of a heavenly calling, consider Jesus, the Apostle and High Priest of our confession. 2 He was faithful to Him who appointed Him, as Moses also was in all His house. 3 For He has been counted worthy of more glory than Moses, by just so much as the builder of the house has more honor than the house. 4 For every house is built by someone, but the builder of all things is God. 5 Now Moses was faithful in all His house as a servant, for a testimony of those things which were to be spoken later; 6 but Christ was faithful as a Son over His house whose house we are, if we hold fast our confidence and the boast of our hope firm until the end.” Once again, verse 6 is a restatement of all that has been said before. However, in verse 6, the phrase, “if we hold fast,” is an aorist subjunctive, which is implying that it is possible for someone who is a ‘professer’ of faith in Christ not to “hold fast until the end,” and in this instance, it is taking into account the whole of a person’s life. That is, it is stating that the person who is a ‘professer’ of faith in Christ and does “hold fast until the end” is a true believer, and thus, a ‘possessor’ of true and eternal, saving faith from the inception of his or her rebirth, but the person who does not “hold fast until the end” is merely a ‘professer’ without true, eternal, saving faith. Again, this is a restatement of all that has been previously stated.

      (n) Hebrews 3:14: “For we have become partakers of Christ, if we hold fast the beginning of our assurance firm until the end.” The phrase, “have become,” in Greek is genonamen, and it is a perfect tense verb, indicating a completed act, with an ongoing, continuous result. Thus, in very simply terms, for a person who has truly been born again, the result will be one that “holds fast the beginning of his or her assurance until the end.” In other words, the completed act of true, spiritual regeneration will result in a person’s walk with the Lord being continuous, which includes a continuous brokenness and repentance over one’s sins as the Holy Spirit convicts and brings about God’s loving discipline in one’s life, whereby one is enabled to “share His holiness” (Hebrews 12:10), which results in joy and victory in Christ and the “abundant life” He came to give His children (John 10:10). The phrase, “if we hold fast” in this verse is the exact same as in Hebrews 3:6, with the exact same appliction.

      (o) Hebrews 12:4-11: “You have not yet resisted to the point of shedding blood in your striving against sin; 5 and you have forgotten the exhortation which is addressed to you as sons, “My son, do not regard lightly the discipline of the Lord, Nor faint when you are reproved by Him; 6 For those whom the Lord loves He disciplines, And He scourges every son whom He receives.” 7 It is for discipline that you endure; God deals with you as with sons; for what son is there whom his father does not discipline? 8 But if you are without discipline, of which all have become partakers, then you are illegitimate children and not sons. 9 Furthermore, we had earthly fathers to discipline us, and we respected them; shall we not much rather be subject to the Father of spirits, and live? 10 For they disciplined us for a short time as seemed best to them, but He disciplines us for our good, that we may share His holiness. 11 All discipline for the moment seems not to be joyful, but sorrowful; yet to those who have been trained by it, afterwards it yields the peaceful fruit of righteousness.” I have been over this passage numerous times, and verse 8 tells it all, “But if you are without discipline, of which all have become partakers, then you are illegitimate children and not sons.” In other words, if someone is living a lifestyle that is consistently opposed to following Jesus, and there is no “discipline” of the Lord in their lives, leading to brokenness and repentance, then that person is not a true, born again believer in Jesus. On the other hand, if someone who is a true believer in Jesus Christ is living a compromised lifestyle, then it is not a matter of “if God will discipline them,” but it is only a question of “when will God discipline them, how, and the intensity of that discipline” because God, who is our Heavenly Father, loves too much to let us self-destruct, and His discipline will cause us to “share His holiness” and experience “the peaceful fruit of His righteousness.” Consequently, a non-believer will not be disciplined, but they will indeed self-destruct under the consequences of their sin, but the true believer will grow in the “holiness” of God in his or her life, and they will “endure” because of the indwelling power of the Holy Spirit living and abiding within them.
      (p) Hebrews 12:25-29: “See to it that you do not refuse Him who is speaking. For if those did not escape when they refused him who warned them on earth, much less shall we escape who turn away from Him who warns from heaven. 26 And His voice shook the earth then, but now He has promised, saying, “Yet once more I will shake not only the earth, but also the heaven.” 27 And this expression, “Yet once more,” denotes the removing of those things which can be shaken, as of created things, in order that those things which cannot be shaken may remain. 28 Therefore, since we receive a kingdom which cannot be shaken, let us show gratitude, by which we may offer to God an acceptable service with reverence and awe; 29 for our God is a consuming fire.” Verse 25, which is the verse you are focusing on, is giving a general warning to all who read this epistle, first of all using Moses’ example, and then, using the coming of Jesus and His prophetic Word, that if those who hear this turn away from the message of the Gospel, then they will experience the ultimate “consuming fire” of God’s final judgment. This verse doesn’t even remotely refer to one “losing his or her salvation” from my perspective, but rather an intense warning that those who first heard the message under Moses should have responded in repentance, faith, and commitment to God, but because they did not, they reaped the consequences, and how much more so is this true for us today who have heard the Gospel, but then turn away from it and reject it. Once again, you may try and make this verse to be addressing “believers” losing their salvation, but if that is your direction and perspective, I would say to you it is as misdirected as those pastors and teachers who try and make the word “generation” in Matthew 24:34 as the “sign post” for us being able to determine today when Jesus’ return will be, and they have completely set aside Matthew 24:36 and Acts 1:6-8. What is necessary, therefore, is the “whole counsel of God,” not merely a “cut and paste” approach.

      (q) I John 1:5-10: “And this is the message we have heard from Him and announce to you, that God is light, and in Him there is no darkness at all. 6 If we say that we have fellowship with Him and yet walk in the darkness, we lie and do not practice the truth; 7 but if we walk in the light as He Himself is in the light, we have fellowship with one another, and the blood of Jesus His Son cleanses us from all sin. 8 If we say that we have no sin, we are deceiving ourselves, and the truth is not in us. 9 If we confess our sins, He is faithful and righteous to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness. 10 If we say that we have not sinned, we make Him a liar, and His word is not in us.” In the passage above, the two verses that you were focusing on were verse 6 and verse 9. Once again, as I read this entire passage, this has absolutely nothing to remotely do with one “losing his or her salvation,” but rather with the fact of what it means to truly be a born again believer in Jesus Christ. I saw this as a young man at Mississippi State when I was speaking at churches, as I already shared above, when I saw pastors, elders, deacons, and Sunday School teachers get saved, who had been “church members” most of their lives. Thus, verse 6 is stating what has already been addressed many times in this response, and that is, it is not “mere words” that are the key to a person’s relationship with Jesus, but a transformed life through the re-birth, and that will include a lifelong walk of brokenness and repentance over one’s sin as a result of God’s loving discipline, whereby, as believers, we are enabled by the Holy Spirit to “share His holiness” (Hebrews 12:10). Verse 9 speaks for itself: “If we confess our sins, He is faithful and righteous to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.” This is true the moment we accept Jesus as our Lord and Savior, as well as throughout our lives in keeping the channel clean in our relationship with the Lord, which is what I have been saying repeatedly through this response, and that is that our lifelong walk with the Lord includes a continuous brokenness and repentance over one’s sin as a result of God’s loving discipline, whereby, as believers, we are enabled by the Holy Spirit to “share His holiness” (Hebrews 12:10).

      (r) I John 2:18-25: “Children, it is the last hour; and just as you heard that antichrist is coming, even now many antichrists have arisen; from this we know that it is the last hour. 19 They went out from us, but they were not really of us; for if they had been of us, they would have remained with us; but they went out, in order that it might be shown that they all are not of us. 20 But you have an anointing from the Holy One, and you all know. 21 I have not written to you because you do not know the truth, but because you do know it, and because no lie is of the truth. 22 Who is the liar but the one who denies that Jesus is the Christ? This is the antichrist, the one who denies the Father and the Son. 23 Whoever denies the Son does not have the Father; the one who confesses the Son has the Father also. 24 As for you, let that abide in you which you heard from the beginning. If what you heard from the beginning abides in you, you also will abide in the Son and in the Father. 25 And this is the promise which He Himself made to us: eternal life.” The verse you focus on here is verse 24, and once again, it is assuming that the true believers will surface as those who indeed “let that abide in you which you have heard from the beginning,” and these indeed “will abide in the Son.” You may be fully aware that this epistle of John was written primarily to address a heresy called Gnosticism, which taught, among other things, the following: [1] some Gnostics taught Jesus was merely a specter, or ghost, but not a real person, while others taught that Jesus was merely a man, upon whom the “Christ spirit” descended at his baptism, but then ascended from him just before his crucifixion; [2] they believed that it was through knowledge that one ascended in his or her ‘godlikeness’, ultimately becoming one with the ultimate Monad, or god; [3] in order to have and understand this ultimate truth, you had to go to special teachers, who were called pneumaticoi, or “spiritual ones,” and you had to go their special meetings where they taught, otherwise you could never enter into the pleroma of ascendency to ‘godlikeness’. Thus, as you read I John 2:18-25, you can see what John is addressing and why. Consequently, when he comes to verse 24, he was writing for those who were professing Christ back then, as well as today, and he was making the point that for those who truly know Christ and have a born again relationship with Him, they “will abide in the Son,” but for those who do not, they will eventually be pulled away to some other pagan or self-deified belief system. When you read verses 26-27, you then see John’s apologetic against Gnosticism directly by saying that we who are truly born again do not have to have any man teach us because the indwelling Holy Spirit is our teacher, which is the antithesis of Gnosticism, as well as every other Satanic heresy and man-made, self-deified heresy as well: “These things I have written to you concerning those who are trying to deceive you. 27 And as for you, the anointing which you received from Him abides in you, and you have no need for anyone to teach you; but as His anointing teaches you about all things, and is true and is not a lie, and just as it has taught you, you abide in Him” (I John 2:26-27).
      I hope this was helpful, and now I will go to your second point.

      2. In this section, you are saying that six of the churches mentioned are in danger of losing their salvation because of Jesus’ warning to them. So I want to look at each of the churches individually and see if indeed that is what Jesus is saying:

      (a) Revelation 2:1-7 (Ephesus): “To the angel of the church in Ephesus write: The One who holds the seven stars in His right hand, the One who walks among the seven golden lampstands, says this: 2 ‘I know your deeds and your toil and perseverance, and that you cannot endure evil men, and you put to the test those who call themselves apostles, and they are not, and you found them to be false; 3 and you have perseverance and have endured for My name’s sake, and have not grown weary. 4 ‘But I have this against you, that you have left your first love. 5 ‘Remember therefore from where you have fallen, and repent and do the deeds you did at first; or else I am coming to you, and will remove your lampstand out of its place– unless you repent. 6 ‘Yet this you do have, that you hate the deeds of the Nicolaitans, which I also hate. 7 ‘He who has an ear, let him hear what the Spirit says to the churches. To him who overcomes, I will grant to eat of the tree of life, which is in the Paradise of God.” Barbara, you see the reference in verse 5 of Jesus warning that He will come and “remove your lampstand out of its place – unless you repent” as being synonymous with those believers as a whole losing their salvation. There is a Latin quote from an early Christian writer which sums up what this warning was about, efficiam, ut ecclesia esse desinas, which translated means, “it will in effect, indeed cease to be a church,” which simply means that God’s anointing and blessing that gives life to the church will no longer be there. Therefore, Barbara, as I read this passage, I in no way see it saying that true believers there will lose their salvation, as you assume and assert, but rather that the spiritual life they once experienced will dissipate and the church will effectively be an empty shell, which I have seen in my lifetime with some churches in the South. That is, there are professing believers there, oftentimes much older people, who profess their love for the Lord, but they are simply going through the motions of their “traditions,” versus really pursing spiritual life. Now only God knows their hearts, and indeed, some of those professing believers may not be born again at all, while on the other hand, others are, but they are in a spiritual decline and have simply settled in to their traditions. But to say that there were believers there in the church in Ephesus who have lost their salvation, and that is the reason the Ephesian church no longer has spiritual life, I do not see that here in Revelation 2:1-8, nor do I see it in the churches I was referring to in the South. However, I unequivocally see that in many of those churches in the South I went to as a young man and preached the Gospel, there were people there who were merely “church members,” versus truly “born again,” and I saw a number of those “church members” come to a saving faith in Jesus. Consequently, at Ephesus, as with every church, there were in the mix those who were merely “church members,” but who had never been born again. The Apostle John, who is the author of the Book of Revelation, was certainly aware of this truth with regard to those who were a part of the external church in his first epistle as he makes the following statement: “Children, it is the last hour; and just as you heard that antichrist is coming, even now many antichrists have arisen; from this we know that it is the last hour. 19 They went out from us, but they were not really of us; for if they had been of us, they would have remained with us; but they went out, in order that it might be shown that they all are not of us. 20 But you have an anointing from the Holy One, and you all know” (I John 2:18-20). The Gnostic heresy was beginning to become widespread, and thus, there were those who were professing believers in Jesus who were beginning to move toward acceptance of Gnosticism, which in essence, denied the deity of Jesus and His oneness with the Father. That being the case, John makes the following statement quoted above: “They went out from us, but they were not really of us; for if they had been of us, they would have remained with us; but they went out, in order that it might be shown that they all are not of us.” In other words, these were professing believers who were really not true, born gain believers, and the heresy of Gnosticism brought them to the surface with regard to their true state with reference to being a child of God, and they were not. On the other hand, those who were believers “know” the truth of who Jesus is, and wherein their righteousness is derived, and it is from Jesus alone, not their works attributed to their “superior knowledge,” which is part of what Gnosticism taught. Thus, genuine revival occurs when God’s people once again come broken before the Lord, hungering for Him and His truth in their lives, and they in turn begin to be a witness to those around them, leading non-believes to a saving faith in Christ, and that is a cyclical truth we see in the Church for the past 2000 years. Indeed, oftentimes before genuine revival can occur, there needs to be a “blessed subtraction” of those in the church who are merely “church members,” but not truly born again. So they will either truly get saved, or they will leave, and when the latter occurs, then the Spirit of God can move in a powerful way through a unified body of believers and bring the lost to a saving faith in Jesus: “No one can come to Me, unless the Father who sent Me draws him; and I will raise him up on the last day” (John 6:44). What is also interesting to note is that with every church that is addressed, the following phrase is appended with a different blessing attached to each church: “He who overcomes, . . .” Those who overcome, therefore, are indeed those who are truly born again, and they were “chosen in Christ before the foundation of the world, that they should be holy and blameless before Him” (Ephesians 1:4), and the “holiness and blamelessness” comes from His indwelling righteousness in His children: “He made Him who knew no sin to be sin on our behalf, that we might become the righteousness of God in Him” (II Corinthians 5:21).

      (b) Revelation 2:8-11 (Smyrna): “And to the angel of the church in Smyrna write: The first and the last, who was dead, and has come to life, says this: 9 ‘I know your tribulation and your poverty (but you are rich), and the blasphemy by those who say they are Jews and are not, but are a synagogue of Satan. 10 ‘Do not fear what you are about to suffer. Behold, the devil is about to cast some of you into prison, that you may be tested, and you will have tribulation ten days. Be faithful until death, and I will give you the crown of life. 11 ‘He who has an ear, let him hear what the Spirit says to the churches. He who overcomes shall not be hurt by the second death.” Once again, the command, “Be faithful until death, and I will give you the crown of life,”

      • Dear Barbara:

        Here is the remainder of the response:

        (b) Revelation 2:8-11 (Smyrna): “And to the angel of the church in Smyrna write: The first and the last, who was dead, and has come to life, says this: 9 ‘I know your tribulation and your poverty (but you are rich), and the blasphemy by those who say they are Jews and are not, but are a synagogue of Satan. 10 ‘Do not fear what you are about to suffer. Behold, the devil is about to cast some of you into prison, that you may be tested, and you will have tribulation ten days. Be faithful until death, and I will give you the crown of life. 11 ‘He who has an ear, let him hear what the Spirit says to the churches. He who overcomes shall not be hurt by the second death.” Once again, the command, “Be faithful until death, and I will give you the crown of life,” can only be accomplished by those who are truly born again, and as John wrote in I John 2:18-20 with regard to the heresy manifesting those who were merely “church members” and not truly saved, so too here the persecution will bring to the surface the true believers in Jesus.

        (c) Revelation 2:12-17 (Pergamum): “And to the angel of the church in Pergamum write: The One who has the sharp two-edged sword says this: 13 ‘I know where you dwell, where Satan’s throne is; and you hold fast My name, and did not deny My faith, even in the days of Antipas, My witness, My faithful one, who was killed among you, where Satan dwells. 14 ‘But I have a few things against you, because you have there some who hold the teaching of Balaam, who kept teaching Balak to put a stumbling block before the sons of Israel, to eat things sacrificed to idols, and to commit acts of immorality. 15 ‘Thus you also have some who in the same way hold the teaching of the Nicolaitans. 16 ‘Repent therefore; or else I am coming to you quickly, and I will make war against them with the sword of My mouth. 17 ‘He who has an ear, let him hear what the Spirit says to the churches. To him who overcomes, to him I will give some of the hidden manna, and I will give him a white stone, and a new name written on the stone which no one knows but he who receives it.” Clearly here, we see once again the truth expressed in I John 2:18-20 where the differentiation is made between the true, born again believers, and those who were merely “church members” who, in this instance, “hold the teachings of Balaam” and “the teaching of the Nicolaitans.” It is interesting to note that Jesus says he will “make war against them,” that is, those who have embraced these heretical teachings, not His true children.
        (d) Revelation 2:18-29 (Thyatira): “And to the angel of the church in Thyatira write: The Son of God, who has eyes like a flame of fire, and His feet are like burnished bronze, says this: 19 ‘I know your deeds, and your love and faith and service and perseverance, and that your deeds of late are greater than at first. 20 ‘But I have this against you, that you tolerate the woman Jezebel, who calls herself a prophetess, and she teaches and leads My bond-servants astray, so that they commit acts of immorality and eat things sacrificed to idols. 21 ‘And I gave her time to repent; and she does not want to repent of her immorality. 22 ‘Behold, I will cast her upon a bed of sickness, and those who commit adultery with her into great tribulation, unless they repent of her deeds. 23 ‘And I will kill her children with pestilence; and all the churches will know that I am He who searches the minds and hearts; and I will give to each one of you according to your deeds. 24 ‘But I say to you, the rest who are in Thyatira, who do not hold this teaching, who have not known the deep things of Satan, as they call them– I place no other burden on you. 25 ‘Nevertheless what you have, hold fast until I come. 26 ‘And he who overcomes, and he who keeps My deeds until the end, to him I will give authority over the nations; 27 and he shall rule them with a rod of iron, as the vessels of the potter are broken to pieces, as I also have received authority from My Father; 28 and I will give him the morning star. 29 ‘He who has an ear, let him hear what the Spirit says to the churches.” Once again, as with I John 2:18-20, we see another heresy here bringing to the surface those who are truly children of God, versus those who are not with regard to “the woman Jezebel, who calls herself a prophetess, and she teaches and leads My bond-servants astray, so that they commit acts of immorality and eat things sacrificed to idols. . . . And I will kill her children with pestilence; . . . and I will give to each one of you according to your deeds.” In this passage, Jesus is making a distinction between “His bond-servants” and “her children,” with the former belonging to Him, and the latter belonging to her. Thus, is it possible for God’s children to be misled into sin and compromise of various sorts? Without any equivocation it is, as is seen with David and Peter, but with God’s children who sin and fail, there will always be a genuine brokenness and repentance that will follow as a result of God’s loving discipline, whereby we as His children are then enabled by the indwelling Holy Spirit to “share His holiness” (Hebrews 12:10). On the other hand, for those who are not His children and do not repent, but grow even harder, God’s judgment awaits them, and indeed, they will experience the consequence of their deeds as is described in Romans 1:18-32.

        (e) Revelation 3:1-6 (Sardis): “And to the angel of the church in Sardis write: He who has the seven Spirits of God, and the seven stars, says this: ‘I know your deeds, that you have a name that you are alive, but you are dead. 2 ‘Wake up, and strengthen the things that remain, which were about to die; for I have not found your deeds completed in the sight of My God. 3 ‘Remember therefore what you have received and heard; and keep it, and repent. If therefore you will not wake up, I will come like a thief, and you will not know at what hour I will come upon you. 4 ‘But you have a few people in Sardis who have not soiled their garments; and they will walk with Me in white; for they are worthy. 5 ‘He who overcomes shall thus be clothed in white garments; and I will not erase his name from the book of life, and I will confess his name before My Father, and before His angels. 6 ‘He who has an ear, let him hear what the Spirit says to the churches.” This is as clear an example of I John 2:18-20 as any portion of Scripture I have seen with the following statement: “’I know your deeds, that you have a name that you are alive, but you are dead.” In other words, they were merely “church members” who did not have a true, born again relationship with Jesus. Jesus is calling them to repent, but if they do not, then they will reap the consequences of Romans 1:18-32. On the other hand, Jesus has “a few people in Sardis who have not soiled their garments; and they will walk with Me in white; for they are worthy,” and their “worthiness” does not come in any way from their “own works of righteousness,” because they have none, but it comes from Jesus’ righteousness within them (II Corinthians 5:21).

        (f) Revelation 3:7-13 (Philadelphia): “And to the angel of the church in Philadelphia write: He who is holy, who is true, who has the key of David, who opens and no one will shut, and who shuts and no one opens, says this: 8 ‘I know your deeds. Behold, I have put before you an open door which no one can shut, because you have a little power, and have kept My word, and have not denied My name. 9 ‘Behold, I will cause those of the synagogue of Satan, who say that they are Jews, and are not, but lie– behold, I will make them to come and bow down at your feet, and to know that I have loved you. 10 ‘Because you have kept the word of My perseverance, I also will keep you from the hour of testing, that hour which is about to come upon the whole world, to test those who dwell upon the earth. 11 ‘I am coming quickly; hold fast what you have, in order that no one take your crown. 12 ‘He who overcomes, I will make him a pillar in the temple of My God, and he will not go out from it anymore; and I will write upon him the name of My God, and the name of the city of My God, the new Jerusalem, which comes down out of heaven from My God, and My new name. 13 ‘He who has an ear, let him hear what the Spirit says to the churches.” Here too, Jesus is making a very clear distinction between those who are truly His, versus those who are not – e.g., those “who say that they are Jews, and are not, but lie.” Indeed, Jesus says these are “of the synagogue of Satan.” Thus, once again, I John 1:18-20 comes into play.

        (g) Revelation 3:14-22 (Laodicea): “And to the angel of the church in Laodicea write: The Amen, the faithful and true Witness, the Beginning of the creation of God, says this: 15 ‘I know your deeds, that you are neither cold nor hot; I would that you were cold or hot. 16 ‘So because you are lukewarm, and neither hot nor cold, I will spit you out of My mouth. 17 ‘Because you say, “I am rich, and have become wealthy, and have need of nothing,” and you do not know that you are wretched and miserable and poor and blind and naked, 18 I advise you to buy from Me gold refined by fire, that you may become rich, and white garments, that you may clothe yourself, and that the shame of your nakedness may not be revealed; and eye salve to anoint your eyes, that you may see. 19 ‘Those whom I love, I reprove and discipline; be zealous therefore, and repent. 20 ‘Behold, I stand at the door and knock; if anyone hears My voice and opens the door, I will come in to him, and will dine with him, and he with Me. 21 ‘He who overcomes, I will grant to him to sit down with Me on My throne, as I also overcame and sat down with My Father on His throne. 22 ‘He who has an ear, let him hear what the Spirit says to the churches.” The “church of Laodicea” appears as a whole to be a false church, built upon a false premise, such as the Kingdom Hall of the Jehovah’s Witnesses, etc. In verse 17, the phrase, “you say,” is representative of the whole church, thus, the entire church represents a heretical church built upon its own self-deification. The very fact that this church does not know that it is “wretched and miserable and poor and blind and naked” is indicative that it has not seen its sin, which means it has never experienced the conviction of the Holy Spirit that leads to salvation: “And He, when He comes, will convict the world concerning sin, and righteousness, and judgment; 9 concerning sin, because they do not believe in Me; 10 and concerning righteousness, because I go to the Father, and you no longer behold Me; 11 and concerning judgment, because the ruler of this world has been judged” (John 16:8-11). Verse 18 is a clear statement that the people of this church as a whole have never been saved as Jesus tells them “to buy from Me gold refined by fire, that you may become rich, and white garments, that you may clothe yourself, and that the shame of your nakedness may not be revealed; and eye salve to anoint your eyes, that you may see.” Jesus then makes a clear contrast between those who are His children with the following statement, “’Those whom I love, I reprove and discipline,” and this is in keeping with Hebrews 12:4-11. Jesus then calls this church as a whole to come to a genuine faith in Him with the following statement: “be zealous therefore, and repent. 20 ‘Behold, I stand at the door and knock; if anyone hears My voice and opens the door, I will come in to him, and will dine with him, and he with Me.”

        3. This next section you bring up is the Parable of the Talents in Matthew 25:14-30: “For it is just like a man about to go on a journey, who called his own slaves, and entrusted his possessions to them. 15 “And to one he gave five talents, to another, two, and to another, one, each according to his own ability; and he went on his journey. 16 “Immediately the one who had received the five talents went and traded with them, and gained five more talents. 17 “In the same manner the one who had received the two talents gained two more. 18 “But he who received the one talent went away and dug in the ground, and hid his master’s money. 19 “Now after a long time the master of those slaves came and settled accounts with them. 20 “And the one who had received the five talents came up and brought five more talents, saying, ‘Master, you entrusted five talents to me; see, I have gained five more talents.’ 21 “His master said to him, ‘Well done, good and faithful slave; you were faithful with a few things, I will put you in charge of many things, enter into the joy of your master.’ 22 “The one also who had received the two talents came up and said, ‘Master, you entrusted to me two talents; see, I have gained two more talents.’ 23 “His master said to him, ‘Well done, good and faithful slave; you were faithful with a few things, I will put you in charge of many things; enter into the joy of your master.’ 24 “And the one also who had received the one talent came up and said, ‘Master, I knew you to be a hard man, reaping where you did not sow, and gathering where you scattered no seed. 25 ‘And I was afraid, and went away and hid your talent in the ground; see, you have what is yours.’ 26 “But his master answered and said to him, ‘You wicked, lazy slave, you knew that I reap where I did not sow, and gather where I scattered no seed. 27 ‘Then you ought to have put my money in the bank, and on my arrival I would have received my money back with interest. 28 ‘Therefore take away the talent from him, and give it to the one who has the ten talents.’ 29 “For to everyone who has shall more be given, and he shall have an abundance; but from the one who does not have, even what he does have shall be taken away. 30 “And cast out the worthless slave into the outer darkness; in that place there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth.” Barbara, of all the passages you have presented, including John 15:1-6 in your fourth section, this passage has the most viability, on the surface, of your position that a true believer can lose his or her salvation. In fact, this parable is quite similar to the one in Matthew 24:42-51 of the “evil slave” whom the master “assigned him his portion with the hypocrites” (Matthew 24:51). In both of these parables, there is a clear distinction between the “blessed slave” and the “evil slave” in Matthew 24:42-51, and the “good and faithful slaves” and the “wicked, lazy slave” in Matthew 25:14-30. The very first thing that strikes me are the adjectives “wicked” and “evil” that are applied to the two slaves in Matthew 24:42-51 and 25:14-30, which to me speaks of the essence of their very nature apart from God’s grace, versus the adjectives “faithful, sensible, and blessed” for the slave in Matthew 24:42-51 who serves His master properly, and “good and faithful” that are applied to the slaves in Matthew 25:14-30 who also “who were faithful with a few things.” When we go back and look at the parable of the sower, we see that the fourth soil individuals are described as “the ones who have heard the word in an honest and good heart, and hold it fast, and bear fruit with perseverance” (Luke 8:15). When Jesus was called “good” by a Jewish leader who was wanting to know what he must do “to inherit eternal life” (Luke 18:18), Jesus responded with, “Why do you call Me good? No one is good except God alone” (Luke 18:19). Paul makes a similar comment in Romans 3:12 when he quotes from Psalm 14:3 and says, “There is none who does good, there is not even one” (Romans 3:12). That being the case, from Jesus, David the Psalmist, and Paul, then why are the “slaves” and the individuals of the fourth soil called “good”? The only “goodness” we have, therefore, comes from God’s righteousness within us, and Paul states that quite clearly in the following passage: “Therefore, we are ambassadors for Christ, as though God were entreating through us; we beg you on behalf of Christ, be reconciled to God. 21 He made Him who knew no sin to be sin on our behalf, that we might become the righteousness of God in Him” (II Corinthians 5:20). Indeed, the very fact that in both parables of Matthew 24:42-51 and 25:14-30, the “good slaves” are also called “faithful” is of major importance because we are told that Jesus is the “the author and perfecter of faith” (Hebrews 12:2). Thus, I do not see the “evil” slaves in either parable as having once been “saved” and then “lost,” but rather as having never been saved, but rather merely “church members” who knew all about Jesus, but never “knew” Him as their personal Lord and Savior, and consequently, they would fall under the category of the 2nd soil in Luke 8:6 & 13 in which the “seed,” or Word of God, never took “root,” but rather was superficially planted, the result being that the surface roots died from lack of moisture and nutrients. Metaphorically, therefore, these are the individuals whose “belief” is superficial and never really took “root” in that person’s heart, and I see this as being the case for the “evil slaves” in both Matthew 24:42-51 and 25:14-30. And in the same way as Judas Iscariot was called a “disciple” of the Lord, but he never really entrusted Himself to Jesus, so too these men were called “slaves” of their master, but their hearts were never really with their master, and consequently, they were never really born again “slaves,” but were merely “church members.”

        4. This final section you bring up is John 15:1-6, but I want to include 7-8 as well: “I am the true vine, and My Father is the vinedresser. 2 “Every branch in Me that does not bear fruit, He takes away; and every branch that bears fruit, He prunes it, that it may bear more fruit. 3 “You are already clean because of the word which I have spoken to you. 4 “Abide in Me, and I in you. As the branch cannot bear fruit of itself, unless it abides in the vine, so neither can you, unless you abide in Me. 5 “I am the vine, you are the branches; he who abides in Me, and I in him, he bears much fruit; for apart from Me you can do nothing. 6 “If anyone does not abide in Me, he is thrown away as a branch, and dries up; and they gather them, and cast them into the fire, and they are burned. 7 “If you abide in Me, and My words abide in you, ask whatever you wish, and it shall be done for you. 8 “By this is My Father glorified, that you bear much fruit, and so prove to be My disciples.” Once again, with reference to verse 2, the mention of “Every branch in Me that does not bear fruit” is a restatement, agronomically, of the parable of the sower and the second soil that is the “rocky soil,” and thus, the seed never takes “root,” with the result being that it eventually dies and produces no fruit (Luke 8:6 & 13). Here too, the same is true, and I to give you some agronomical reasons for a branch “dead-wooding” (the term used by agronomists) so that it needs to be removed. The following two websites give some practical explanations:

        The most common cause of the damage described above is water stress inside the tree. Water stress results whenever water loss exceeds uptake long enough to cause plant damage or disturb its physiological processes. It usually results from a lack of available soil moisture due to drought, which in turn depends on the water storage capacity of the soil and on the rate at which plants take up water through their roots and evaporate it through the foliage. Water stress often affects groups of trees because they share common soil and environmental conditions that can affect their rate of uptake and the degree of water stress. (http://www.oregon.gov/ODF/privateforests/docs/fh/InteractionOfDrought.pdf)

        Deadwood is an arboricultural term normally used to describe the presence of dead-branches located within a living trees crown. A common arboricultural procedure is ‘dead-wooding’ or to ‘deadwood a tree’ where such dead branches are removed. Branches can die for a number of reasons. Many die as a natural process of becoming shaded out by other, higher, more efficient branches (it is pointless maintaining a branch laden with leaves if they can not receive sufficient light to manufacture foods). Many branches die due to root damage; this is a common problem on development sites where identifiable symptoms in the larger trees may not appear for several years. Or, the tree may be experiencing attack from a disease where either the branch itself has been directly harmed or the branch is reacting to a root or trunk attack. (http://www.users.globalnet.co.uk/~skellern/trunkline/aie_tr_deadwood.html)

        If you have an evergreen tree, watch for sections without leaves year-round. Otherwise, don’t worry about your deciduous trees until the leaves have appeared in the spring. Common causes of bare patches include: Nutrients and water not reaching those branches; Animals eating the leaves; Improper pruning practices; Pesticide damage; Insects and diseases. (http://treesandshrubs.about.com/od/treeandshrubhealth/a/healthytreesign.htm)
        As you can see, the reason for “dead-wooding” typically has to do with the branch not getting sufficient moisture from the trunk for some reason, which may be related to the soil, or it may be because of some type of disease or root damage. What is interesting to note, however, is that lack of moisture for these “branches” that are “dead-wood” is the same reason Jesus gave for the seed not producing any plant growth in the second soil in the parable of the sower: “And other seed fell on rocky soil, and as soon as it grew up, it withered away, because it had no moisture. . . . And those on the rocky soil are those who, when they hear, receive the word with joy; and these have no firm root; they believe for a while, and in time of temptation fall away” (Luke 8:6 & 13). Now in John 15:1, Jesus says “I am the true vine,” and that being the case, then there is a problem with the connection of the branch to the vine, so that the branch, for some reason, is not receiving the necessary moisture for growth and fruit-bearing. Once again, this is an identical scenario described in the parable of the sower, but with a different agronomical analysis, but one which the people of Jesus’ time could readily relate to and understand in that agriculture was a very real and integral part of their daily lives. Thus, the non fruit-bearing branch is like the non fruit-producing seed in the second soil, where neither are getting sufficient water and they die. In the same way, therefore, both of these examples represent those who do not have sufficient “root” in the soil or the branch, which metaphorically is Jesus, and thus, their belief is a superficial belief that is short-lived because of its “non-rooted” and “non-connected” relationship with Jesus.
        Now the reason I wanted to include verses 7-8 in this passage was specifically because of verse 8: “By this is My Father glorified, that you bear much fruit, and so prove to be My disciples.” The word “prove” in Greek comes from the verb ginomai, which means “to become or come into being through a process of birth or creation, etc.” In addition, in this instance in John 15:8, it is what is called an aorist subjunctive with the conjunction hina, and all of this implies the purpose and intent of God’s will and plan for their lives. However, the subjunctive mood implies probability, but not actual reality, and thus, the reason for the NAS translating this verb “prove” is to emphasize that the true disciple will “bear fruit,” but the one who is not will not “bear fruit.” And finally, the aorist tense in this instance would be what is called the consummative aorist, in that it focuses on the finished product of a process, and that process is their living as a believer and follower of Jesus Christ. Thus, those who are true believers and followers of Jesus bear the fruit of the life of Jesus within them, which is produced by the power of the indwelling Holy Spirit as a result of their brokenness and repentance over their sins, failures, mistakes, and misdirections, consummating in the victorious life through their growth in Him: “Jesus therefore said to them again, “Truly, truly, I say to you, I am the door of the sheep. 8 “All who came before Me are thieves and robbers, but the sheep did not hear them. 9 “I am the door; if anyone enters through Me, he shall be saved, and shall go in and out, and find pasture. 10 “The thief comes only to steal, and kill, and destroy; I came that they might have life, and might have it abundantly” (John 10:7-10). Therefore, in conclusion, Jesus said “My sheep hear My voice, and I know them, and they follow Me; 28 and I give eternal life to them, and they shall never cause themselves to perish unto eternity; and no one shall snatch them out of My hand” (John 10:27-28).
        Barbara, I am blessed and honored that God has given me the privilege and allowed me to write this response to you, and I pray that it will be of some help and use to you. On the other hand, if you choose to continue to believe that you can lose your salvation, you have every right to do so, but there is nothing more that I can say, nor that I am going to say to attempt to dissuade you, as I feel such efforts would be an absolute waste of my time and energies since you have encased yourself in this belief. Therefore, this is the last response I will make to you about this matter. On the other hand, if you want to ask me questions about Greek, such as the critique you posed about my assessment of the preachers and teachers in college who butchered the Scripture as a result of their lack of knowledge of Hebrew and Greek, that is fair game, and I am going to respond to you. Or the question about why I use the term “born again” with reference to Abraham, that too is fair game, as well as the matter of “works” and “faith” presented in James 2, and I look forward to addressing those, and any other theological, historical, linguistic, or biblical questions that you may have. But with regard to the matter of eternal, versus temporal life in Christ, that discussion between you and me is over and done because my response to you will simply be a repeat of what I have already written in various contexts and analyses. I pray that God will guide you as you continue to seek His truth, and thanks again for the opportunity to share with you about this matter.

        God bless you,
        Justin T. Alfred

        • Justin~

          I am so sorry. I hope that you don’t think that I have ignored your response to my comments and questions. I was scrolling down the page looking for something else and just happened to notice that you had answered me. I so appreciate your taking the time to provide such an lengthy answer. It’s a little late for me to get started reading it, but I will first thing tomorrow. I look forward to reading your explanations.

          God bless you~
          Barbara

          • Dear friends who edify us all in sharing yourselves, your choices; thank you. Concerning disciples. Belief, believe occurs throughout all instances of explanations. Belief witnesses unbelief. Hbr 11:6, Rom 11:29, Jhn 15:5 Do you believe God? Do you believe the testimony of Jesus? 1Jo 5:9-21, Luk 13:1-10
            Peace brethren. Believe God.

      • Sorry if this is out of bounds here but I couldn’t find where to comment without replying to a post. thank you for this study. Part 3 is missing or a broken link or something. I’m really interested in what you said on the third soil person.

        Please let me know if the link gets fixed

  6. Dear friends,
    Being ‘born again’ applies to a real and particular experience in one’s life where the Presence of the Holy Spirit which is the Reflection ( Christ Consciousness or mirror reflection of God) of God within us, less we be all dead or robbotic automatons living without the spirit, that gives life equally to all. Now in that passage ( Genesis 17:3) where Abraham falls down (H5307 – naphal ) which in Hebrew also means to experience ‘death,’ but in this case it represents death to the mortal self or the I-Consciousness allowing the AM- Ever-Existing or the Pure God Consciousness – that exists to take over his consciousness lower of flesh consciousness. Today this experience compares to a near death experience NDE, and unless one has experienced this state it is hard to imagine the separation of I-consciousness and experience the spirit or ‘Am’ consciousness. Thus in brief, Abraham overwhelmed by the Presence of ‘El Shadday- Almighty or the Almighty I Am Presence’ which he experienced and simultaneously was able to see his destiny and the ‘promise’ or ‘spiritual inheritance’ regarding that dimension of existence which he had to work towards for the rest of his life to secure It as It was promised to him from the beginning.
    I speak from experience,
    Peace and Love
    MJ.

  7. We not born again today. We are, rather, new creatures. II Corinthians 5:17 “Therefore if any man be in Christ, he is a new creature: old things are passed away; behold, all things are become new.”

    Being born again applies only to God’s program to save Israel. Exodus 4:22 “And thou shalt say unto Pharaoh, Thus saith the LORD, Israel is my son, even my firstborn:”

    Israel strayed from God, such that, by the time Jesus came to earth, they were Satan’s lawful captive. Isaiah 49:24-25 “Shall the prey be taken from the mighty, or the lawful captive delivered? But thus saith the LORD, Even the captives of the mighty shall be taken away, and the prey of the terrible shall be delivered: for I will contend with him that contendeth with thee, and I will save thy children.”

    To be God’s children, Israel had to be born again, which is what Jesus says in John 3:3 “Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God.”

    We cannot be born “AGAIN” today, because we were never born of God in the first place, like Israel was. Instead, God makes us a new creature in Christ and blesses us in the spiritual realm.

    • Eric~

      You need to read more than John 3:3 to come to correct conclusion about being born again. In verses 5 and 6, we read, “Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and [of] the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God. That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.” In the first place, the “man” spoken of is not Israel because it is indefinite. Secondly, we are told exactly what births are being referenced through parallelism. The “water” birth in verse 5 corresponds to the “flesh” birth in verse 6, meaning each and every person’s natural birth. The “Spirit” birth in verse 5 corresponds to the “spirit” birth of verse 6, meaning being born again from above, from God. We are born once, which is our physical birth, and we are born again, which is our spiritual birth.

      Barbara

  9. Justin~

    Thank you for your thoughts. I have to admit that I was a little jarred at first when you referred to Abraham as being “born again,” but after thinking about what that means, itmakes perfect sense.

    Given the topic of discussion over these past weeks with regard to Hebrews 6 and whether true, born-again believers can or cannot lose their salvation, I assume that your inclusion of Abraham’s life was given to contradict the former. Yes, everything you said about Abraham is true. He was a born-again believer who, like each one of us, was a “fearful” person of “great weakness” who displayed “impatience” and was guilty of “carnal and disbelieving failures,” “disobedient compromises, and “fleshly actions.” However, what I see missing from your consideration is Abraham’s free will with regard to his salvation. God is, indeed, sovereign, and He uses His sovereignty to bring out His ultimate will, that of reconciling the world back to Him. He also uses it to intercede in our lives, before and after salvation. However, He never uses it to usurp mankind’s only inalienable right, the absolute free will to either accept or reject Him and His plan of salvation, whether initially or finally. That is why the entire cosmos was subjected to sin and death and why over 2 million Israelites died in the wilderness. It is because their initial faith didn’t “endure unto the end” (Matt. 24:13b). It is because they didn’t “continue in [his] goodness” (Rom. 11:22b). It is because they didn’t “continue in the faith grounded and settled” (Col. 1:23a).

    Abraham, on the contrary, did continue in the LORD. Did he do it perfectly? No. Your assessment of him testifies to that. However, he did say ‘yes’ to the LORD’s call upon his life, which began when God called him out of the world and he agreed (Gen. 12:1, 4) and lasted until the end of his life, and that is the key, that he developed a relationship with God and allowed God to have His way in him, that he finished what he committed to God in Haran (II Tim. 1:12). It is what you said when you wrote that “…this work of sanctification in Abraham is the very same work of sanctification that God works in all of his children through His loving ‘discipline’ in order that ‘we may share His holiness.’” Yes, this is the plan, that through God’s “loving ‘discipline’” we “may share His holiness,” but I don’t know of even one verse that states or implies that every born-again believer will eventually submit to God’s correction. In fact, Hebrews 12:6-8 implies the very opposite. It is true, as I can personally attest, that God uses His sovereignty in numerous and creative ways to get His children’s attention, but the fact is, for God’s plan to have any credibility and worth at all, then His children must always be able to exercise their God-given free will, and that means being able to say ‘no’ as well as ‘yes’ at any point in their walk. Abraham’s story had a great ending because he used the same free will to submit to the Lord and to receive discipline from the Lord that he used to initially accept the Lord’s plan of salvation.

    Thank you for your time, and I would appreciate any comments or corrections that you have.

    Yours in Christ~
    Barbara

  10. Wow, good question,

    Here’s the layout for time dealing with having the spirit with in, or upon.

    ALL THE BELIEVERS before the day of Pentacost had spirit upon them.

    ALL THE BELIEVERS after the day of Pentacost has spirit with-in.

    It’s to simple guys, just think it logically through here.

    When was it available to be born again, to have Christ with-in? After he was raised from the dead, right? ok

    So it must not have be available yet before, so how did they have spirit with-in? That’s the thing, they didn’t, it was upon them, God could have taken it away if they didn’t stand on His Will. Just think through Kind Saul’s life.

    Even Adam and Eve, sorry, I didn’t right the book.

    Now, it’s available, not then.

    Question, thinking through different administrations, why did the children of Israel kill the lamb? Think through all that they went through and why.

    Here comes Jesus Christ, the subject of the Bible, comes along and NOW, notice we don’t kill lambs anymore?

    Kids, I think it’s great that we have questions, but remember, sometimes to get a quick answer isn’t available until you think through the administrations of the Bible.

    What are they, glad you asked,

    There’s 7 total, which is interesting, 7 meaning spiritual perfection. God had it all handled, all we have to do as students the the Word of God or the Will of God is to put it together and sometimes it takes time, doesn’t it?

    1– paradise
    2– patriarchal time
    3– The law
    4– Christ administration
    5– Grace administration NOW spirit with-in is available
    6– Christ’s return think through all those events
    7– Paradise once again, God’s good, just His Word, its there

    Anyway, God Bless this should help

    Happy Speaking
    never mind my spelling

    • Too much of us is, “ME”. The witness of God supersedes all else. The tragedy of Eden was the severing of God from all Adams. The Old Testament presages the glory of creation, Jesus. The Spirit of God was not in humans. Death and deceit are the works of the dead. The Spirit visits in the Old Testament. The sacrifices are no longer practiced when that which is perfect is come, the veil of the temple is rent, the temple is destroyed.
      Jesus is the Glory of God.
      Jesus is your purpose or you are dying. Jhn 1:4, 12:32, Col 1:27

      Adam and Eve did not heed God. The people, rulers of this world and Israel do not choose Jesus but desire to have according to their concepts thus participating in confusion and every evil work. Jam 3:16. God is not limited to our logic or constructions. 1Jo 5:9, Jhn 14:6

      God is perfect, we are not.
      Eze 18:22 All his transgressions that he hath committed, they shall not be mentioned unto him: in his righteousness that he hath done he shall live.
      Eze 18:24 But when the righteous turneth away from his righteousness, and committeth iniquity, [and] doeth according to all the abominations that the wicked [man] doeth, shall he live? All his righteousness that he hath done shall not be mentioned: in his trespass that he hath trespassed, and in his sin that he hath sinned, in them shall he die.
      Eze 33:12 Therefore, thou son of man, say unto the children of thy people, The righteousness of the righteous shall not deliver him in the day of his transgression: as for the wickedness of the wicked, he shall not fall thereby in the day that he turneth from his wickedness; neither shall the righteous be able to live for his [righteousness] in the day that he sinneth.
      Eze 33:13 When I shall say to the righteous, [that] he shall surely live; if he trust to his own righteousness, and commit iniquity, all his righteousnesses shall not be remembered; but for his iniquity that he hath committed, he shall die for it.

      • If we trust to our own righteousness we shall die. Jesus is the perfect righteousness of God. Please note in the scripture concerning Abraham that he believed God.

        Gal 3:6 Even as Abraham believed God, and it was accounted to him for righteousness.

        The witness is that Abraham chose. The witness is of decision. The value is that Abraham eventually chose the will of God to the end of his recognition in the scripture. He is recognized because he is so different. The significance recognized in biblical examples are the exceptions. The story of this world is rejection of the will of God. The rejection of Jesus.

  11. Abraham looked towards that place in time and we looked back at that place in time where the promise was sealed in the body of our Messiah. Both those before the cross and those after the cross must walk by faith energized by love. Both those before the cross and those after the cross must openly with their mouth proclaim this faith. So just as Abraham, I lift my hand of covenant to The Most High God…..El Shaddia, He is my Friend.
    Born again in time therefore I sojourn here until I enter eternity … a citizen of that city, The City of Peace.
    Shalom alechem,
    Mark (Cov)

  12. D., Thank you for the Heb 11:38-40 HNV reference.

    All, who is the “us” Paul is referring to when he writes “God having provided some better thing concerning us, so that apart from us they should not be made perfect.”? Keeping in mind the context of the passage, the list of souls who were just listed and who the book was written to. Answer; The Jews (Hebrews).

    D., I have yet to read a direct statement from Justin supporting your premise here. I do not disagree with you in that the inference has always been there, but nothing direct. So for me, unless Justin “emphatically” states “predestination”, “once saved, always saved”, “eternal salvation” call it what you will, it is only speculation on our part and we must give him the benefit of the doubt since so much benefit has been extended to me in the face of my sin. Concerning “eternal salvation” – Mat 6:34 HNV.

    Justin, would you like to clear up the confusion…,emphatically?

    J.

  13. Well D. Leland, your comment …”The reason this blog brings up Abraham’s difficult moments is to shore up the insupportable foundations of the “eternal security” doctrine.”…shows me you are way off base. Abraham through his entire walk messed up things…probably because he had a similar trait that King David had, Apostle Paul had, and I am quite sure both you and I have on this planet. We are human.

    So if Abraham can tell half truths about his wife plus except except the hand maid of his wife yet still be considered faithful, and King David can murder his wife’s first husband plus refuse to correct his children, and Apostle Paul can even admit he was the chief of all sinners (1 Tim 1:15…history shows he had quit a mean streak)then I suspect there is room at the cross for folks that on the surface appear holy.

    What do Abraham, David and Paul also have in common with me besides being human? We each repented. And that repentance was guided by the hand of The Holy Spirit. I do know that nobody can come unless The Father draws them (John 6:44). And that English word “draw” is the Greek word helko which is a verb that means continuous drawing or leading. So I have figured out that I am a son of God that still has some growing to do because Father God has shown helko towards me.

    And I for one believe John 6:37 as well. I also know that every seed planted will reap a harvest. So folks that continue to walk in unforgiveness are going to keep on having trouble with others in their family, etc, with multiplied forgiveness problems. And folks that like to bait or torment brothers or sisters into conflict are going to reap conflict in their personal life. There will bubble up strife in their daily walk. Why do I know this? Because I believe Galatians 6:7…Be not deceived; God is not mocked: for whatsoever a man soweth, that shall he also reap. If someone is truly a child of God then The Holy Spirit will guide that person to quit poking at a fault in others life and instead pull that tree out of their own eye.

    As too the eternal security comment…..Matt 9:29…According to your faith be it unto you. But for me and my house I am going to keep living and believing that Jesus is the bread of life. I am not going to argue, be further baited, etc because it is plain to see some folks have a stick in their craw and so are uncomfortable. And instead of dealing with the stick and seeing were we can walk in agreement, poke at family. I simply believe the words of Jesus is John 6:36-40.

    Have a great week,
    Mark (Cov)

    • Mark~

      Before I begin, my intention is not to gossip about Justin or to show him any disrespect. I truly appreciate all the insights he brings, especially with regard to the languages, but I believe he is wrong about the doctrine of eternal security, and it is my prayer that what I write is not looked upon as gossip but godly correction.

      I believe you have missed the point of D. Leland’s comments because I, too, came away with the same impression about Justin’s post, that he was making the case that believers cannot lose their salvation because Abraham was weak, carnal, dishonest, etc, etc, yet God saved him. The problem with this reasoning is that no one is saying that believers lose their salvation because they sin, even repeatedly like Abraham, David, Paul, me, or any other believer. Unfortunately, this is only one of the two specific points that many people want to consider with regard to whether one can lose his or her salvation because it can always be proven that God saves sinners. The second argument that is put forth against losing salvation centers around God’s promises as found in the exact verse you cited, John 6:37. What you and so many others fail to consider in order to rightly divide the Word (II Tim. 2:15) is that while God is always faithful, believers are ALWAYS given the choice of being faithful or not, something you and others not only refuse to accept but explain away by saying that these people weren’t “true” believers, that they weren’t “truly [children] of God,” anything but acknowledge that believers can leave God, either through apathy or rebellion as scores of biblical examples prove. Yes, we have God’s assurance that He will never let go of us, but we can always let go of him, and your repeated attacks on those who disagree with you along with proof texting doesn’t change this fact.

      When you write that you are “not going to argue, be further baited, etc,” you are just avoiding the obvious, that you cannot defend your position, because you (and others) haven’t put forth even one reasonable argument against any of the examples and explanations that I or others have given these past months, something you would have quickly done if you had been able. If you want to “simply believe the words of Jesus,” then you need to believe all of them, not just the ones that appear to support eternal security. How about it, Mark? If the Bible truly supports eternal security, then you should be able to tear down my arguments with ease, and you will have brought many brothers and sisters into the truth of the Word. You said you were going to address my examples, so now would be a good time.

      Barbara

      • Barbra, just how close are you and D? And why is there such an intent coordinated pushing to disrupt? Is it not obvious the the Gospel is free but not cheap and this website is promoting Christian growth that has no cost to you? And I ask this question…who in scripture is always attacking trying to plant discord to disrupt the flow of The Holy Spirit?

        As to defending the life of Jesus that is in me…He Himself has taken on the responsibility by becoming a beacon of faith light energized in agape. I abide in Him and He abides in me and we are in The Father. My Messiah, Jesus, took upon Himself and paid the ultimate price. Jesus the Messiah of my life is my source, my foundation, and ultimate focus.

        As to a reasonable argument….why? It has been patiently explained, has been scripturally outlined, and methodically discussed yet you are never satisfied. Why is that?…where is and what is the actual deep seated root that would prompt someone to swing a sword molded in cutting words towards the tender mercy’s of Father God expressed by the men and women that come here to learn giving praise to The Most High? What gain or satisfaction is there in driving people from this site?

        I for a fact know you can contact directly Justin and others. If you truly want to learn…if you truly want to flow with the body then follow the proper methods and contact Justin, etc, directly with your outlined questions. Justin will answer. And how do I know that for a fact? Because Justin answered me. Simple. And why am I encouraging you to contact Justin directly? Again, a simple answer by looking at the directive life of Jesus, our Messiah. How did Jesus respond when someone kept disrupting a public meeting?…and asking questions to flame? I will not answer my own question…I ask it just to promote thought. The Word is simple…touch not mine anointed and do my prophet no harm.

        Have a great week,
        Mark (Cov)

        • Mark~

          D and I are just as close as you and I are, and if merely being in agreement with someone is proof that there is “an intent coordinated pushing to disrupt,” which is the only thing you have offered here as evidence, then I dare say that there is a greater coordinated effort to disrupt on your part because there are far more of you in agreement that believers cannot lose their salvation. In answer to your question as to “who in scripture is always attacking trying to plant discord to disrupt the flow of The Holy Spirit,” I guess the answer you are seeking is the Pharisees and other legalists. However, as far as your implication that I, and I assume, D, are those people, wouldn’t that really depend upon which one of us wrong?

          In your second paragraph, you wrote, “As to defending the life of Jesus that is in me….” Mark, I didn’t ask you to defend the life of Jesus in you; I asked you to “defend your position.” I have no intention of entering into a discussion about people’s personal relationship with God for the simple reason that people who are wrong say the same things as people who are right, meaning that I can say exactly what you did. Does that automatically make me right? Of course it doesn’t, and it doesn’t automatically make you right either. The determining factor as to who is right is whether our beliefs are in alignment with Scripture, all of Scripture.

          You wrote, “As to a reasonable argument….why?” I think the “why” is obvious. We need to correctly understand God’s Word in order to correctly live by it. One of us is wrong, and you did say that you would respond to the comments that I posted around the time of hurricane Sandy, which I took to mean that you could give me a reasonable answer as to why I am wrong if I am. You then wrote that everything has been “explained,” “outlined,” and “discussed.” You are right; however, nothing has been reconciled, and until that has been done, then the truth of God’s Word has not been brought to light.

          I’m not sure what you expect me to say with regard to your last paragraph because you are way out of line telling me that I should contact Justin directly. How Justin and I exchange ideas is between us, and not that it is anyone’s business, but when he is through cataloging my examples, he has assured me that he will address them. What this illustrates is that, although he holds to a different opinion, he at least has enough integrity to consider and respond to what I have written as he has promised. I will be honest, here. I am having a very hard time thinking of ways to politely respond to your very rude and uncalled for comments. This is an open forum, meaning that I can express my opinions within the stated guidelines, so your implying that I am “disrupting a public meeting” is also way out of line. In addition, who are you to pose questions to me, saying, “If [I] truly want to learn” and “if [I] truly want to flow with the body.” Your first accusation is not only insulting, it sounds a little silly considering I’ve been asking you repeatedly for months to teach me why I am wrong with regard to my four examples if I am. As far as your second accusation, I only want to “flow with the body” if the body is grounded in the truth of God’s Word.

          Well, Mark, here we are. Another dialogue has come and gone. Tell me something. Just what did you accomplish here? Have you proven me wrong? Did anything you write have anything to do with the issue at hand whatsoever? Is telling me that I am disruptive, that I “plant discord to disrupt the flow of The Holy Spirit,” that I “swing a sword molded in cutting words,” that I am “driving people from this site,” and that I don’t follow “proper methods to contact Justin” to be considered as actual evidence against what I believe is the truth? Is implying that I am guilty of “disrupting a public meeting” or “asking questions to flame” or touching God’s anointed or doing His prophet harm have anything at all to do with whether believers can lose their salvation?

          You have done exactly what so many people do when they are unable to provide reasonable evidence in support of their position; they attack the person with the opposing view, and you have used this fallacy from the beginning of your post to the end of it. Mark, please tell me how your remarks, in any way, have disproven my opinion and proven yours? Just give me one example. Since you have taken issue with D also, you can begin with John 15:1-6 because we both gave that as an example. Can you defend your position with solid biblical evidence and reasonable logic without writing one derogatory comment about either one of us?

          Barbara

          • Mark~

            I left a couple things out of my comments. If I am willing to open myself up to correction to be brought into alignment with God’s Word, and if I am willing to humble myself before God and everyone on this site to apologize because I have been “trying to plant discord to disrupt the flow of The Holy Spirit,” as you claim, then why wouldn’t you, as a brother in Christ, truly desire to honor my request so that I am no longer deceived and no longer a deceiver? If I were physically sick, would you just keep telling me that I was sick, or would you reach out with some kind of remedy? All I am asking for is the remedy, the reconciliation of all Scripture, not just the verses that tell of God’s faithfulness, even amid believers’ sinning, but verses that tell of believers choosing to refuse to continue to grow in faith in the Lord and the very clearly stated consequences of that decision. If you don’t like my four examples, then what about Hebrews 3:7-19? If this passage isn’t teaching what I, D, and a few others believe, then what, exactly, is the spiritual truth that is being put forth? Are we to believe that out of the millions of Israelites who left Egypt, that only Caleb and Joshua were “true believers,” that not even one of the others truly had the initial faith that God had provided their salvation, even after personally witnessing some of the greatest miracles recorded in the Bible?

            Barbara

          • Mark~

            I just want to make something clear so that there is no misunderstanding. When I wrote that Scripture had been “explained, outlined, and discussed” but not reconciled, I hadn’t realized that Justin had posted his response to me, so I don’t want my comment to be understood as a response to what he had posted above on the 6th. I just came across it today, quite by accident, and I haven’t even had time to read it although I will most certainly give it the time and effort it deserves.

            Barbara

        • Barbra, I had no clue Justin had answered either. I just scrolled down to the bottom then answered when I saw comments directed towards me. Wanted to let you know that because anything I have written was strictly me answering thus not shaded from someone else. I have not read either your entire post or Justin’s as of yet…I will though. The long post I generally read those late in the afternoon then think on them…sometimes for several days.

          Well have a peaceful weekend.

          Mark (Cov)

          • Mark~

            Okay, thanks for letting me know. Although I know that you may agree with other people, I don’t think that your answers are “shaded” from them. Justin’s answer is so long that I had to print it out so that I didn’t have t o spend my time scrolling to find things. It will take me a couple of days to get it read with everything else going on.

            I pray that you will have a good weekend also.
            Barbara

  14. Amen!

    Jesus will lose none of HIS sheep!

    HE is YHWH The Good Shepherd!

    YHWH = The Arm Behold The Nail Behold!

    ^ this is the Hebrew pictograph image of THE FATHER’S NAME!

    JESUS is THE HOLY ONE!!!

  16. Really?

    I am not usre who felt my post was not related and kept it off, but I wish they would at least tell me what they found so offencive about it!

    • If you are a first-time commenter, your comments are held in moderation until approved. We have a small staff, so it can take a couple days for us to get to them all. Thanks for contributing to the conversation!

  17. D., wonderful, “the incontrovertible truth of the Gospel when you let it speak in its context.”.

    See also Mat 15:1-20 HNV.

    Mat 15:12 HNV (oh my, we wouldn’t want to offend… I glad the talmidim were there to correct Messiah’s conduct!).
    Mat 15:14 HNV, “Leave them alone.”, Yeshua (GOD) is telling the 12 Jewish Ambassadors to the nations they no longer were under the GOD appointed authorities of Israel, (Mat 26:3 HNV), they (the 12 Jewish Ambassadors, (talmidim)) were now the GOD appointed authority of Israel. Luk 24:44-53 HNV (ask who was present at the time?), Mat 19:27-30 HNV (ask who was present at the time?)

    Mat 15:21-28 HNV, what humility it is to concede “to the Jew first”.

    J.

    PS, “erstwhile”, love it.

  18. D, I have been studying scripture and have immersed myself into the culture of scripture probably for more years than you have been on planet earth. I have witnessed the breath of El Shaddia as He protected me from those that would terrorize me even as a child. I have swam in the river of Yahweh-shalom, walked under the shadow of Yahweh-tsebaoth and am lead by Yahweh-roi.

    I forgive you for your scathing misjudgement and the cruelness that rushes from the belly like a spring. I understand and sense there has been some pain in the past…some endured abuse. And so I speak Yahweh-ropheka…..and that the oil of gladness encompass you.

    Baruck atah, shalom alechem,
    Mark (Cov)

  19. Justin, thank you so much for taking the time to respond in such a lenghty manner to Barbara’s questions.

    Reading your responses was insightful indeed.

    God Bless!

  20. Did Abraham’s wife, Sarah, who was blessed by God, experience the curse of labor pain in giving childbirth at 90 years of age in partial fulfillment of God’s promises to Abraham? How is Galatians 4:27 to be interpreted which says “…you who were never in labor…”?

    Also, Did the births of Jesus Christ (Mary) and John The Baptist (Elizabeth)come with the curse of labor pain for the two blessed mothers?

    I will await your answer; thank you in advance.
    Ron