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Emphatic Negations in Hebrews 6: Part 2 (Comparing Hebrews 6 with Luke 8)

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The next phrase in Hebrews 6:6 is crucial in understanding what is being described here, and that is, “since they again crucify to themselves the Son of God, and put Him to open shame.” The verbs “crucify” and “put to open shame” are both present, active participles, indicating an ongoing and continuous action – ἀνασταυροῦντας (anastaurountas – “crucifying”) and παραδειγματίζοντας (paradeigmatizontas – “putting to an open shame”). Thus, in this last phrase, what we have being described is an ongoing, continuous lifestyle of someone who is constantly and indefatigably renouncing, denying, and mocking Christ in an incessant manner.

Therefore, as we put all of this together, what we have is the following explanation of what is being stated in Hebrews 6:4-6:

  1. The verbs in verses 4-5 – φωτισθέντας (phōtisthentas – “enlightened”), γευσαμένους (geusamenous – “tasted”), and γενηθέντας (genēthentas – “have been made”) – all indicate an action that occurred, but there is no hint of how long the “enlightenment, taste, and being made” actually occurred. That is, it could have been for an hour, a day, a week, a month, a year, a decade, etc., because there are not adjectival or adverbial modifiers attached to indicate a time frame.
  2. All of these participles are in a concessive mode, indicating the ultimate result or consequence of some action that has brought about the Ἀδύνατον γὰρ (adunaton gar – “for it is impossible”) adjective to be used and applied to this situation.
  3. The situation being described here is that of an individual who has “been enlightened, tasted of the heavenly gift, the good word of God, and the powers of the age to come, and been made a partaker of the Holy Spirit,” and then “they have fallen away,” continually and indefatigably renouncing, denying, and mocking Christ in an incessant manner.
  4. The consequence of all this occurring is that “it is impossible (Ἀδύνατον γὰρ – adunaton gar)” to “continually renew” such a person to a rear, genuine, and life-changing “repentance (μετάνοιαν – metanoian)” because they are continually and incessantly “crucifying (ἀνασταυροῦντας (anastaurountas) and putting to an open shame (παραδειγματίζοντας – paradeigmatizontas) the Son of God.”
  5. Thus, what we have presented here is not a true, born again believer who has backsliden into a compromising situation with some type of sin, but who is also constantly believing in and trusting Jesus as His Savior while under the constant conviction of the Holy Spirit concerning his sin, and with whom God is dealing through His loving “discipline” as already mentioned in Hebrews 12:10-11, but rather what we have is someone who is exhibiting a lifestyle of an absolute and constant denial of Jesus in every way as his or her Lord and Savior, with no pretense of any conviction of his or her sin as being wrong and a need for μετάνοια (metanoia), versus μεταμέλομαι (metamelomai). In addition, the word for “fallen away,” παραπεσόντας (parapesontas), in Hebrews 6:6 is made up of two Greek words: the Greek preposition, παρά (para), which means “from, as a marker of an extension away from something”; and the Greek verb πίπτω (piptō), which means “to move with relative rapidity in a downward direction so as to collapse and fall to pieces.” Together, therefore, the root verb παραπίπτω (parapiptō) means “to fail to follow through on a commitment, thus, to fall away.” In this instance, παραπεσόντας (parapesontas) is also an aorist participle, but unlike the three other verbs used in Hebrews 6:4-5 that were aorist – φωτισθέντας (phōtisthentas – “enlightened”), γευσαμένους (geusamenous – “tasted”), and γενηθέντας (genēthentas – “have been made”) – παραπεσόντας (parapesontas) does have an adverbial time element associated with it, and that is the Greek adverb πάλιν (palin), which means “to repeat in the same manner as was previously done in a time past, thus, again, once more, and anew.” Consequently, it is saying that for those who “have been enlightened, tasted, and been made a partaker of the Holy Spirit” at some point in the past, “after they have fallen away” from any pretense of believing in or following Jesus at a subsequent point of time, “it is impossible to continue to renew them again to μετάνοια (metanoia), or true, genuine, and permanent repentance.”

However, the question that presents itself to us is this:

Just how could such a person “have been enlightened, tasted, and been made a partaker of the Holy Spirit” and turn away from the Lord in such an all inclusive manner?

The answer to that question is found in the “Parable of the Sower”

And when a great multitude were coming together, and those from the various cities were journeying to Him, He spoke by way of a parable: 5 “The sower went out to sow his seed; and as he sowed, some fell beside the road; and it was trampled under foot, and the birds of the air ate it up. 6 And other seed fell on rocky soil, and as soon as it grew up, it withered away, because it had no moisture. 7 And other seed fell among the thorns; and the thorns grew up with it, and choked it out. 8 And other seed fell into the good soil, and grew up, and produced a crop a hundred times as great.” As He said these things, He would call out, “He who has ears to hear, let him hear.” 9 And His disciples began questioning Him as to what this parable might be. 10 And He said, “To you it has been granted to know the mysteries of the kingdom of God, but to the rest it is in parables, in order that seeing they may not see, and hearing they may not understand. 11 Now the parable is this: the seed is the word of God. 12 And those beside the road are those who have heard; then the devil comes and takes away the word from their heart, so that they may not believe and be saved. 13 And those on the rocky soil are those who, when they hear, receive the word with joy; and these have no firm root; they believe for a while, and in time of temptation fall away. 14 And the seed which fell among the thorns, these are the ones who have heard, and as they go on their way they are choked with worries and riches and pleasures of this life, and bring no fruit to maturity. 15 And the seed in the good soil, these are the ones who have heard the word in an honest and good heart, and hold it fast, and bear fruit with perseverance.
(Luke 8:4-15)

In this famous parable, Jesus is comparing the four soil types to four types of individuals who hear the Gospel.

The first soil

The first soil described in 8:5 & 11-12 are those individuals who hear the Word, but “then the devil comes and takes away the word from their heart, so that they may not believe and be saved.” Thus, these people never make any type of commitment at all, but as the saying goes, what they heard “went in one ear and out the other,” and Satan is the one who is facilitating their disinterest in the Word.

The second soil

The second soil, however, is quite different, as described in 8:6 & 13: “And other seed fell on rocky soil, and as soon as it grew up, it withered away, because it had no moisture. . . . And those on the rocky soil are those who, when they hear, receive the word with joy; and these have no firm root; they believe for a while, and in time of temptation fall away.” Agronomically, due to the rocky soil, the roots of this plant were not able to penetrate through to the alluvial soil whereby the plant could retain water and nutrients necessary for its survival and growth. Thus, as the sun came out, the plant eventually “withered away” and died “because it had no moisture.” Metaphorically, therefore, Jesus says these are the individuals who “when they hear, receive the word with joy.” In other words, there is apparently a great emotional response to their “receiving the word” of the Gospel, and others can obviously see it, giving the impression that these individuals have truly committed their lives to following Jesus as their Lord and Savior. However, Jesus then makes an important statement about these individuals and says, “and these have no firm root.” The word “firm” is in italics because it is not in the original Greek text, but it is put in there as implied by the text. Thus, what Jesus is saying is that these people who “receive the word with joy,” and apparently great emotional fervor, in truth “have no root (i.e., any real ‘spiritual depth’)” at all with their inward commitment.

There is something very interesting and noteworthy in this verse: the word “have” in the Greek is ἔχουσιν (echousin), and it is in the present tense. This actually indicates a continuous and ongoing state. Thus, “they continually have no root” of any real, genuine, and permanent commitment to Jesus as their Lord and Savior. Indeed, these are the same individuals described in Hebrews 6:4-5, “who have once been enlightened and have tasted of the heavenly gift and have been made partakers of the Holy Spirit, 5 and have tasted the good word of God and the powers of the age to come,” but—once again—there was “no root” of a true and born again commitment to Jesus as Lord and Savior.

Of course, there is consequence of this counterfeit “root” in their commitment to Jesus: “they believe for a while, and in time of temptation fall away.”

The word for “believe” here in the Greek is πιστεύουσιν(pisteuousin), and it too is in the present tense, indicating an ongoing and continuous belief. Yes, there is an emotionally superficial appearance that is “for a while.” The Greek translated for “a while” is καιρὸν (kairon), and in this instance it means “a period of time that is limited and not permanent.” Thus, these individuals “continue to believe for a period of time,” which could be for a day, a week, a month, a year, a decade, a quarter of a century, etc., but “in time of temptation fall away.” This in turn coincides with what we described about the aorist verbs in Hebrews 6:4-5 – φωτισθέντας (phōtisthentas – “enlightened”), γευσαμένους (geusamenous – “tasted”), and γενηθέντας (genēthentas – “have been made”) – that they simply state that something happened without making any reference to the time allotted for their being “enlightened, having tasted, and having been made.” Thus, in Hebrews 6:4-5, these people too “were enlightened, tasted, and were made partakers of the Holy Spirit” at a point in time, just as the individuals of the second soil in Luke 8:6 & 13. However, just as with the emotional, superficial belief of those in Luke 8:6 & 13, whose belief was temporary “for a while,” so too with the temporary and emotionally superficial belief of those described in Hebrews 6:4-5 – it was not permanent, but simply happened for an undetermined period of time, and then “they fell away.”

“Fall away” in Luke 8 is different than “fall away” in Hebrews 6

The Greek word for “fall away” in Luke 8:13, however, is different from παραπίπτω (parapiptō), “fall away,” in Hebrews 6:6. In Luke 8:13, it is ἀφίστανται (aphistantai), but it is also, like παραπίπτω (parapiptō), made up of two Greek words: ἀπό (apo), which is a preposition. And like παρά (para), it indicates a “a marker to indicate separation from a place, whether person or thing, from, or away from”; the Greek verb, ἵστημι (histēmi), which means “to cause to be in a place or position, to set, place, bring, and allow to come.” Thus, together it means “to cause someone to move from a reference point, to cause to revolt, go away, and withdraw.” What is also important with ἀφίστανται (aphistantai) in this instance is that it is in the present tense and middle voice, with the present tense indicating a continuous, ongoing action of “revolting and going away” from Jesus, and the middle voice in this instance emphasizes the fact that “they are choosing to continually revolt and turn themselves away from Jesus of their own accord,” and it is because of some form of “temptation” they have encountered.

The actual Greek word for “temptation” is πειρασμός (peirasmos), and it means “a trial, test, or temptation and enticement to sin.” Thus, for those who “have no root” in Jesus of a true, genuine, and eternal relationship with Him as their Lord and Savior, either because of some external trial or tragedy in their lives, or through some sin and failure in their own lives, “they continually revolt and turn away from Jesus,” versus coming to the end of themselves and trusting in Him implicitly in their intense trial, or coming to Him in brokenness over their sin and failure, confessing, repenting, and turning from their sin unto Him in His loving restoration and discipline.

—–to be continued—-

Are you enjoying this series? Finding it helpful? We hope so!

Stay tuned for next week, when Justin walks us through the next two soil types.

Comments

  1. Amazing, God bless you Justin. It is an answer to my prayer from colossians 1
    ‘ you may be filled with the knowledge of His will in all wisdom and spiritual understanding, that you may walk worthy of the Lord, fully pleasing Him, being fruitful in every good work and increasing in the knowledge of God;strengthened with all might, according to His glorious power, for all patience and longsuffering with joy; giving thanks to the Father who has qualified us to be partakers of the inheritance….in whom we have redemption through His blood, the forgiveness of sins’

    Looking forward to your next posts.

  2. Yes I do enjoy this site…renewing of the mind is a continual process not something relegated to just Easter or just on the weekend.

  3. Justin, next year starting with Passover go on the journey that Jesus went on in John…..He went from one feast to the next…..this journey (WAY) has a purpose…..God has hidden His understanding and knowledge IN his feasts…..after joining Jesus in this way you will be teaching with greater understanding and knowledge…..and you will see who wrote hebrews and what these scriptures are truly saying…..this is your invitation!!!!

  4. There are some aspects of these verses that I think get overlooked because of our focus. Though not in written order, the first that I think needs to be considered is verse 6 with its “since they crucify again for themselves the Son of God, and put Him to an open shame.” I believe that this talks of a rejection of Christ as the means to atone for sins and/or the nature of Christ as God. This was the rejection explicit in the crucifixion, and in this rejection, it is as if Christ is crucified again. This is not a slip into sin. It is a rejection of Christ.

    Also, because it is impossible to renew them against to repentance, this is not speaking to anyone who is seeking repentance. Those of whom these verses speak will not desire to repent.

    Most importantly, though, and the area I desire to study more is the list given in verses 4 and 5. The writer of Hebrews is giving us five ways in which God reaches out to man, revealing Himself to us. The key is that this individual has hardened themselves to each of these ways. This hardening is not from a simple rejection. As Justin points out with the parable of the sower, these are people who “have tasted the good word of God” and then turn away in total rejection of Christ. The Bible (the word) is one of the five ways mentioned. The others are enlightenment, the heavenly gift, the Holy Spirit, and the powers of the age to come.

    Whether or not this is thought to be a saved or unsaved person describe, the end result is that it is an individual who has been fully exposed to God’s wooing grace, in all its forms. At that point, Hebrews says there is nothing left with which to call them to repentance.

    If we are worried about loved ones, this is crucial. There is hope. First, not all wandering away from following Christ is a total rejection of Him. Second, the individual in question may not have yet experienced all the different ways in which God call us to repentance.

    There is room to repent…to a point.

    I have purposefully avoided the question of whether the individual in Hebrews 6 is saved. It’s a fair question, but however you answer it, I think there is hope in the limitations found in these verses and also an area for further study in these listed ways in which God reaches out to man.

    P.S. Justin, I’ve had the pleasure of briefly meeting you as you spoke on Islam at Calvary Chapel Fairhope and as you served on the board at Calvary Gulf Coast. May God bless you both at home and in your ministries.

  5. I appreciate this study very much as my Father used to profess Christ and has since, for the last 31 years, continually denied Him. This scripture had vexed me and caused me a lot of grief for years, but the Lord began to change my heart recently. To begin to pray that he stop “continually” denying Him and enter into true repentance.

    I don’t believe that Hebrews 6 was meant to discourage the believer from praying in faith for those who are currently in that fallen away condition. But rather to make clear that while in that condition repentance will not occur. Its impossible to be denying Christ and be repenting! I am praying hopefully for my Father, and I hope that others do the same! Thanks for all the amazing insight.

    Julie

  7. Justin at BLB~

    I think I am a little confused. I thought that I had read in one of your earlier lessons something to the effect that you don’t believe that true, born-again believers can lose their salvation, but it seems that your position regarding Hebrews 6 and the Parable of the Sower is that believers can. I’ve read so many different viewpoints regarding the Hebrew passage, but I think they either ignore or manipulate what is being plainly written. The reason that I usually hear to rid so many verses of the idea that true believers can lose their salvation is that they weren’t really saved to begin with, which I find a dangerous and totally unsubstantiated premise. I know you are going to look over the information I posted when you get a minute. The Parable of the Sower is one passage I found to be a strong support against eternal security.

    Luke 8:11-15 (Parable of the Sower)
    Verse 11 says that the seed is the Word of God, and each subsequent verse tells us what happens to the seed depending upon the soil in which it is scattered. Verse 12 is about those who are unsaved, those on the “wayside.” Because they are unsaved, the devil snatches the word out of their hearts “lest” (except that, in order to avoid) “they should believe and be saved.” Skipping, first, down to verse 15, the seed here falls on “good ground,” speaking of those who are saved and have an “honest and good heart,” who, after they have heard the word, keep it, and then act upon it, bearing “fruit with patience,” all characteristic of a Holy Spirit-filled life. It is verses 13 and 14 that illustrate that one can lose salvation. We know that the people in verse 13 are born again because they “receive the word with joy” and “for a while believe.” However, because they have not studied and shown themselves approved by God (II Tim. 2:15) and have not grown in the grace and knowledge of Jesus Christ (II Pet.3:18) as commanded, we are told that they “have no root” in themselves. Consequently, “in time of temptation,” they “fall away,” meaning they ‘apostatize.’ Similarly, those people in verse 15 are saved because we are told, “they…heard” and “went] forth,” actions of a believer. However, just as in the story of the rich young ruler, these people were not willing to die to themselves, to surrender all to the Lord, so they become “choked with cares and riches and pleasures of [this] life, and bring no fruit to perfection.” The verse says that they have fruit, which is the evidence of salvation, but because their loyalties and energies are spent in worldly pursuits and not godly ones, the fruit that began to grow never became fully ripened, or perfected, by a life submitted to the Holy Spirit. As we know, parables are short stories that present spiritual truths. If verses 13 and 14 of this passage aren’t about losing one’s salvation, then what is their purpose?

    God bless you~
    Barbara

    • How can you argue against eternal security? Do you not believe in salvation by grace? If you do believe in salvation by grace then do you think that once God has forgiven someones sins through the cross and resurection of Christ then he would revoke that gift of forgiveness? That is what you are implying. Eph 2:8 says For by grace you have been saved through faith. And this is not your own doing; it is the gift of God, not a result of works.

      • Noah~

        I don’t know if you’ve read any of my previous posts, but I can argue against eternal security because I studied the topic for a year due to my ignorance of it. I know it is an objectionable doctrine to many, if not most, in the body of Christ because so many people have not studied to shew themselves approved (II Tim. 2:15), but it doesn’t change the facts any. I do absolutely believe in salvation by grace, according to Ephesians 2:8-9, and I am not “implying” that God would “revoke that gift of forgiveness,” I am emphatically stating it because that is what the Word teaches. In fact, as I’ve written many times, it is one of the most thoroughly documented doctrines in the entire Bible. However, many believers, rather than approach the whole of Scripture as we are commanded in II Timothy 3:16, do little more than proof text, and even in that, they sometimes misinterpret what the verse or verses are saying. With all due respect, this is exactly what you’ve done. In order to disprove me, you used exactly one verse, ignoring the hundreds of verses and scores of passages that very clearly imply that salvation can be lost. The second thing you did was to misinterpret Ephesians 2:8-9 by incorrectly projecting an idea into them that just isn’t there. These verses, companions of John 1:8, are very much teaching, as you wrote, that we our saved by God’s grace alone, that it is a gift and that our human works have nothing to do with it. However, you have mistakenly inserted a conclusion about a doctrine that isn’t even mentioned in them. Please read them again carefully. Nowhere is the doctrine of eternal security even mentioned, let alone a conclusion given. The purpose of these verses is to define how we are initially conveyed into the kingdom of God from the world (Col. 1:3), not whether we enter God’s final rest in heaven.

        I’ve written on this topic several times and have given several examples that imply that true believers can lose their salvation. Two of these posts are quite lengthy, so rather than repost them here, I will refer you to them for you to study. On the September 19 blog, I posted my comments on how I had I reconciled Scripture and some other thoughts. They can be found on the introductory page (This blog page was split) by doing a word search for “It is true.” In addition, on the main page of the September 19 blog, I have given four examples to study that support that believers can lose their salvation. You can find them in a post I wrote to Dee by doing a word search for “I had written.” I would very much like you, or anybody, to study what I have written and give your comments, keeping in mind that we are to reconcile Scripture, not proof text it. I’ve given these verses and examples several times, but not one person has even discussed what I’ve written, let alone rebutted it. This is a problem. There have been a handful of people who had done their own study previously and posted that, yes, Scripture does teach that believers can lose their salvation, but not one person who disagrees with this has been able to reasonable and biblically prove us wrong, their entire argument being not much more than a short list of verses similar to Jesus saying that He would never leave us or forsake us. I would love it if just one person would honestly look at what I have written. How about you? I even have more examples if you want them.

        My prayer is that each one of us will study God’s Word and that He will open our spiritual eyes and hearts to His eternal truth as we do.

        Yours in Christ~
        Barbara

        • I like your point about studying the whole of scripture and not just taking one verse and basing your theology off it. That is true however it is also true that there are no contradictions in scripture. This means that if one verse is completely true that there is no single verse in the bible that would teach something contrary to that. There are dozens of verses on eternal security that teach that ones salvation cannot be lost. THis means that there is no single verse in the bible that can teach that your salvation could be lost. If there was then there would be contradictions in the bible and we could not rely on its authority. In John 10:28 Jesus says about his sheep, “I give them eternal life, and they will never perish, and no one will snatch them out of my hand.” Eternal life is eternal. Very simple, when someone is made alive in Christ (born again) they will stay alive in Him for all of eternity. What you are saying is that eternal life can be lost. That doesnt make sense to me because it is eternal.

          • Noah~

            You are absolutely right that there are no contradictions, which is exactly the point of reconciling all relevant Scripture. One of the most important considerations in beginning to study this topic is that there is not one verse that emphatically states, “You can lose your salvation.” However, neither is there even one verse that emphatically states, “You cannot lose your salvation.” Whether one can or cannot lose his or her salvation can only be determined by studying the examples given throughout Scripture as well as reading Scripture for what it is really saying rather than through the filter of eternal security as seen by your comment that “There are dozens of verses on eternal security that teach that ones salvation cannot be lost.” Noah, there aren’t “dozens of verses on eternal security.” There are, however, dozens of verses, that when isolated from the greater portion of God’s Word, that are used to support eternal security, but that cannot be considered honest scholarship, can it?

            In your first post, you gave exactly one verse as evidence that believers cannot lose their salvation, and you have done the same thing in this post. However, what I don’t see is any reference to the scores of verses and passages that imply that believers can lose their salvation. I’ve given at least two posts, including the ones to which I referred you, in which I have shown how verses such as John 10:28 can be reconciled with verses such as Revelation 3:5 and John 15:1-6. Did you read either of them? What is your opinion of the reasoning I used and the conclusions I reached? How do you fit the four examples I gave, which are every bit God’s Word as John 10:28, into a theology that supports eternal security? If the examples I gave are not teaching that believers can lose their salvation, what spiritual truths are we to glean from them?

            I’ve had this exact discussion with several people on this forum, and for the most part, the verses and explanations that I give are met with nothing more than a verse that appears to contradict what I am saying rather than with a reasonable explanation with scriptural support to rebut my opinion. I mean no offense, but I cannot bear to, once again, enter into a discussion about finding the truth of God’s Word with half of it being purposely ignored. If you would like to study and pray about the two posts and then have a dialogue about them, I would truly be happy to do so.

            Your sister in Christ~
            Barbara

          • Noah~

            As I just wrote, I’ve been in several discussions in which my comments are met solely with a verse and no further discussion, which gets really tiring considering the time I put into writing my answers to meet other people’s objections. You brought up part of John 10:28 about Jesus saying, “I give them eternal life,” adding your opinion that “Eternal life is eternal” and that “…eternal life can be lost.” I believe that I clearly explained the rest of John 10:28 in the introductory part of the September 19 post; however, I realized that your particular concern about eternal life found in Jesus’ comments here, which I did address in the paper I wrote, is not something that I included in the two posts I had you read, so here are my thoughts on it.

            The following verses are just a few that discuss the idea of ‘eternal life’:

            ~John 5:24b says that believers “hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but [are] passed from death unto life.”
            ~I John 5:13b says that believers “may know that [they] have eternal life.”
            ~Titus 1:2a says that believers are “In hope of eternal life.”
            ~Titus 3:7b says that believers “should be made heirs according to the hope of eternal life.”

            There are many truths that can be understood from the above four verses, and, when harmonized, they formulate sound doctrine. When John says that believers “hath eternal life” and “hath passed from death to life,” which are written in the present tense, we understand these declarations to be only a partial fulfillment of the promise because believers, clearly, don’t have their final and complete eternal life because, currently, they are not in the realm of “eternity” but in the realm of “time.” The way in which we can understand the idea of having eternal life now can be seen in how the word “heir” is used in Titus 3:7b. It is an example of how the same word can have both a current and future application. A person such as Prince William, for example, because he is descended from royalty, is referred to as an heir because he currently benefits from his family’s estate. In this sense, we currently have eternal life because we have Christ, who is eternal life, dwelling within us, and we reap the benefits of that relationship although partially as Paul explains in I Corinthians 13:9-12. In addition, there is also a future application to the word “heir” because Prince William is also heir to the throne, which is the fullness of his inheritance. In like manner, believers will also, in the future, receive the fullness of their inheritance, being joint heirs with Christ (Rom. 8:17). In understanding how the word heir is used, believers can say that they have eternal life and support it biblically although they don’t have it in the present sense. This is why believers simultaneously “[have] eternal life” (Jn. 5:24b) and have the “hope of eternal life” (Ti. 1:2a).

            In Romans 15:4, Paul wrote, “For whatsoever things were written aforetime were written for our learning, that we through patience and comfort of the scriptures might have hope.” As I wrote on an earlier post to someone, part of what was written for our learning was the story of the Israelites, a lesson that we cannot afford to ignore. After crying out to God, He saved them through a physical deliverance just as we are saved through a spiritual deliverance when we cry out to Him. What is important to note, here, is that the Israelites didn’t go immediately into God’s final rest (Promised Land/Canaan) that He had prepared for them any more than we go into God’s final rest (heaven) on the day we were saved. On the contrary, He sent them, as He does us, into the wilderness for a time of testing to see whether their post-conversion lives would reflect a true and enduring faith in Him that would sustain them through to their final salvation, and as we know, it didn’t, with the entire first generation of God’s chosen people, save Caleb and Joshua, dying in the wilderness because of their unbelief. This is the exact reason that we are given the very strong warning in Hebrews 3:7-19.

            In your final comments to me, you wrote, “Very simple, when someone is made alive in Christ (born again) they will stay alive in Him for all of eternity. What you are saying is that eternal life can be lost. That doesnt make sense to me because it is eternal.” As we can see from just the one example that I gave above, your reasoning does not line up with the Word of God. Life, itself, whether physical or spiritual, is in the hands of the Creator, and the same God who gives life can take it away.

            I hope that this explanation helps, and I pray that you will seriously study the earlier posts because each one of us will be held personally accountable for how we handled the Word of God.

            I look forward to your comments.
            Yours in Christ~
            Barbara

    • Hey Barbara,

      Excuse my butting in. I struggle with similar questions. I don’t see the parable quoted as a proof text either way. There’s nothing wrong with your interpretation but it seems to depend on certain assumptions.

      My take on all this probably won’t satisfy you at all. There has been division over this subject for so many years because there are hints in both directions, and God seems to have written His word in way that avoids settling the point. At the point right now where I assume there’s a reason for this and perhaps this was a point that needed to be left slightly veiled.

      Of course, I have my view of the moment on the matter. I believe in security. No one can steal us away. I also think it’s possible for a believer to turn his back and walk away from it all. I don’t believe that negates salvation by grace; it is rather a rejection of grace.

      I read a little of what you had to say earlier about how Hebrews 6 warns about not growing in the Lord. Similar thoughts had occurred to me. The reason, I think, is simply that ignorance leaves us open to deception, cults and the like. I don’t think that really helps answer the question of the state of salvation of the individual prior to the deception, however.

      In the end, I’ve not encountered anything that works as a proof text for me one way or the other. The main of the New Testament speaks to me of security and our being sealed by the Holy Spirit, but the full implications of a one-saved-always-saved theology seem purposefully undercut on many occasions.

      • As noted with blasphemy and throughout scripture each individual is accountable. Absolutely no one bothers with the things of God before being called by the Holy Spirit. God is the Creator. God chooses to create. God will not interfere with personal choice because it is a gift, “for the gifts and calling of God are without repentance.” Choice is the most precious ability for individuals. Choice is the person; it confirms, expresses their presence, their existence. There is no purpose for judgment without choice. Human life is not an expression of the colony or hive but personal and resistant to compulsion.
        Salvation is a promise of God. God cannot lie. Hbr 6:18, Rev 21:22-27 No one can commune with God without the blood of Jesus Christ. Jhn 14:6, 2Cr 1:20 The Holy Spirit is almighty salvation. That God chooses to create is incontrovertible. God made man in His image and likeness Gen 5:1-2. God is a spirit Jhn 4:24. Choice is the image and likeness of God. The Glory of God is the victory over sin and death, the testimony of Jesus by those who choose in the image of God, His salvation. God is holy. Hbr 12:17-29, Hbr 10:31
        Gal 6:7, Jhn 17:9-12

      • Wade~

        Thank you for responding, and you are absolutely not butting in!

        With regard to the parable, you wrote, “There’s nothing wrong with your interpretation but it seems to depend on certain assumptions.” This is a little hard for me to address. If you would give me some examples of the assumptions that you think I am making, then I can discuss them.

        You are right about there being “division over this subject,” but my dear brother in Christ, do you, in your heart of hearts, actually think that “God [would] have written His word in a way that avoids settling the point”? Do you really believe that the God who promises us that the Holy Spirit will guide us into ALL truth (Jn. 16:13) and who gave us ALL Scripture (II Tim. 3:16) by which we can know All this truth is going to leave us dangling with what has to be the most important doctrine in the Bible, second only to the doctrine of salvation itself? When He commands us to “Prove all things; hold fast that which is good” (I Th. 5:21), isn’t it a rightful assumption that the truth is there and that it can be found? I think it very much does.

        I have a real quick comment on what you said about Hebrews 6. While it is true that not in growing in the Lord very much “leaves us open to deception, cults, and the like,” I think the greater issue is that we are not growing in the Lord. Ephesians 5:27 says, “That he might present it to himself a glorious church, not having spot, or wrinkle, or any such thing; but that it should be holy and without blemish.” We are to be spending our time becoming increasingly sanctified so that we resemble Christ as true sons and daughters of God. We are to submit ourselves to God’s circumcism (Jn. 15:2), and we are to circumcise ourselves (Ja. 4:8). Our initial salvation was nothing more than a repositioning with regard to God so that we would be able to receive the things of God and become cleansed. Paul recognized this when he wrote, “But I keep under my body, and bring [it] into subjection: lest that by any means, when I have preached to others, I myself should be a castaway” (I Cor. 9:27). The people to whom the writer of Hebrews is addressing are believers because they are told to move beyond the fundamentals and onto maturity, something that wouldn’t be said to the unsaved. Basically, what I believe this passage to be saying is that one cannot be born again, accepting Christ’s sacrifice for salvation, and then live a life devoid of growth and then expect Christ’s blood to, then, provide
        the means of salvation. I think I worded it better in the original post.

        I very much appreciate the honesty with which you write and that you are seeking the truth of God’s Word. I’m not saying that we are all going to agree with each other, but we are to come together in love and discuss the Word. You are right on track when you say that “No one can steal us away. I also think it’s possible for a believer to turn his back and walk away from it all. I don’t believe that negates salvation by grace; it is rather a rejection of grace.” There are, as you wrote, Scripture to support both views. The challenge is to reconcile them because, only then, will the truth of God’s Word be manifest. I’ve given my thoughts on how God’s Word can be reconciled. As I told Noah in the post above, I don’t want to repost my comments because they are too long. However, if you will go to the sites that I gave him, you can read them. I would be very interested in your opinion of what I wrote.

        Thank you, again, for sharing your thoughts. We are, as Justin wrote, iron sharpening iron, and we all need to learn and grow in God’s Word together.

        God bless you, and I look forward to your thoughts.
        Your sister in Christ~
        Barbara

        • “Assumptions” here simply means that in the interpretation of scripture we bring our interpretation of other scriptures into play. These are the “assumptions” that you and I bring into looking at this particular text. Either you or I (or neither of us) may be correct in these assumptions.

          I pray that God bless you and that He uses your zeal for Him and His Word to His glory.

          I read where you’ve been studying this matter for over a year, and that seems like a long time, and it must feel like you have the answer to put to rest this age-old debate if people would only listen to you. If that doesn’t describe how you feel, it describes me about a dozen years ago.

          Keep sharing your message, and don’t be discouraged if everyone doesn’t come to agree with you. More importantly, when those moments come when you see the fallacies in your own logic or interpretation of a key verse here or there…don’t despair. God is using and will use this time dedicated to His study for His purposes, if you persevere.

          Look, right now, this might all be coming off wrong. If any of this sounds negative or is upsetting, it’s not meant to be. But one day, you’ll need to remember that the power and ability of God to use you does not depend on the infallibly of your personal theology. When what seems unshakable is shaken, know that God is still using you. When that time comes, know that He loves you and always has.

          God bless.

          • Barbara,

            Fair enough. I understand your disappointment. Perhaps at some point I’ll have the time to look up your earlier posts. I answered the way I did, however, because I felt the point I was making was more important that any debate you and I could engage in.

            There are two sides of the theological spectrum on this point that I don’t feel comfortable with. One is the “Once Saved Always Saved” mantra. The other adds something of our own work to the completed work of Christ. I am interested to see if you’ve managed find a medium between those two.

          • Wade~

            I have “managed find a medium between those two.” That, in part, is what those two posts are about. If you would like to discuss it after you read them, I would be happy to because, as you will find, it isn’t that hard to understand.

            Yours in Christ~
            Barbara

  8. Thank you Justin for doing an excellent job in describing difficult verses that have confused many. Your explanation is clear, concise, and comforting. At the same time it makes me want to constantly live for my Lord and Savior; not being one of those who draw back. God bless you!

  9. Barbara, I am reminded of Timothy 1:7 For God hath not given us the spirit of fear; but of power, and of love, and of a sound mind. As you and others read my words, know there is no tone or flaming. It is just calm words expressing a truth.

    In this simple statement Paul is reminding young Tim that the Blood Covenant through the body of Jesus The Messiah brings together mankind to The Father. They both understood covenant. Family “A” would send their first born son as a representative and family “B” would do the same thing. Both had to send the first born. Jesus, standing in as first born for Father God, because His seed was in Him and for mankind because Jesus was of Mary. Only Jesus was able to fulfill the need for a man that was clean and acceptable for the divine legal contract. Once on the cross Jesus said it is finished, He took captivity captive. He paraded death and hell for all heaven to see…which is why to this day Islam and all other devilish religions continue to say Jesus was only a good man. Devils knowing God spoke a thing and it became are trying to speak and undo The Blood Covenant. But they cannot for it is finished.

    So, when we read Romans 10:9-13 we can have assurance that God The Father through His Son meant exactly what He said. And God The Holy Spirit through the creative force of breathing life into the person that call’s “upon the name of the Lord shall be saved” is spiritually strong enough to enforce and keep that agreement. I honestly have no fear that God The Holy Spirit has created inside of me a new creation that can be undone on a heavenly pink slip of dismissal. Why? Because my Father God is not schizophrenic and the Blood Covenant Contract is not in my body but signed and sealed in The Body of Jesus my Messiah. The creative action is finished. It cannot be undone. Someone may try to destroy the human body or the human mind …may even succeed, but the spirit reborn is sealed in a binding blood covenant between God The Father and God The Son. True, we each miss the mark and so the human body will suffer. But just as The Father is related to The Son, Jesus being The First Born, I too am related to The Father. If I get to the point that I need correction, then in the manner of a father, God My Father will do so…but He will not murder my spirit. He corrects me.

    I am reminded of the times when I was a child and I disrupted a family function or a meeting and my earthy father would correct me. Depending on my maturity at that time I may even had told my dad I hated him. Did he beat me and tell me I was no longer his son? No. Did my exclamation reverse the creative process of how I was born onto this planet? No. The seed and the egg remained intact and I still have the body I was born with however many years ago. So what would happen? Sometimes I got scolded, sometimes I got a spanking in front of others, and sometimes my dad just told me….Son, go to your room and I will meet you there in a bit. My earthly dad dealt with my mind and body in my room. The room was always the last resort. So it is with my Heavenly Father. Father God will correct His kids openly for their own good because correction is good. Full grown ministers have “lost” their ministries, a married man or woman may lose their spouse, you may even get a speeding ticket because as you know we are suppose to obey the laws of the land. In other word, we each have received correction from our Heavenly Father for our own good. But if there comes a time the child has gone out of control that is detrimental to that child and others around that child, Father God will send that child to their heavenly room. Why? Because it is better for the child to lay down the earthy body and rest a bit in order to save the spirit. The spirit is eternal and to kill the “saved” or reborn spirit would be murder. If Father God were to do that then God not only would be breaking the commandment…thou shalt not commit murder but He would also be breaking the commandment of love. God cannot, will not and has not broken His Word. Father God loves His kids enough to send them to their room for some one on one teaching. It’s a family thing.

    Be at peace (shalom)
    Mark (Cov)

    • Mark~

      Taking your last paragraph first, you have given a false analogy because our relationship with our physical parents had nothing to do with us, so nothing can change the fact that they will always be our physical parents; however, our relationship with our heavenly Father is spiritual and only came about by a decision made on our part, and the same free will we used to choose Him through Jesus, we can use to reject Him.

      As to the rest of what you wrote, I’ve heard it all before, many times. The problem here, though, is that not one single person who holds to your viewpoint has ever even tried to rebut my arguments. Sadly, many of the people who cannot offer an intelligent, well-reasoned argument with biblical support against my viewpoint have to rely, instead, on name calling and other argumentative fallacies, which is neither sound argument nor the way we are to correct an erring brother or sister, wouldn’t you agree? As I’ve written, I can’t, for the life of me, understand why a person who considers himself or herself a Christian would refuse to give an answer to another believer, especially when asked, but it has happened a lot.

      You wrote, “…my Father God is not schizophrenic…,” Mark, that is a fallacy in argument. We’re not here to judge God’s mental stability. We are here to judge our beliefs against the revealed Word of God. Now, I’ll tell you the same thing I’ve told everyone else. If I’m wrong, I’m wrong, but you’re going to have to do more than write a couple of paragraphs in which you express your opinion. I want a reasonable rebuttal to the examples and explanations I’ve given, using the whole counsel of God, not verses isolated from the rest of God’s Word.

      When you write, “The creative action is finished. It cannot be undone, have you forgotten about creation itself, something that the entire Trinity was involved in? The actions of two people took everything that God had created and called ‘good’ and reversed it, subjecting it all to sin and death, so the greatest “creative action” that has ever taken place was very much “undone.”

      You have given your opinion, so now I am going to put before you the same thing I’ve put before many others on this blog. Can you go to the two posts that I cited in my comments to Noah and Wade and tell me why I am wrong if I am? I have given four examples as evidence that a true, born-again believer can lose his or her salvation, and I have many, many more if you want them. Can you tell me, using reason and Scripture, why my conclusions are wrong, keeping in mind that they are based upon relevant verses and passages out of the Word of God? Can you tell me how they can be reconciled to your thinking? I would like just one person to come forth and back up their doctrine with honest scholarship. I don’t agree with some of the things you’ve said on this blog, but you do strike me as someone who would at least examine the findings of someone else.

      I pray that as we each study the Word and increasingly rely upon the Holy Spirit that we will receive God’s wisdom and truth. As we are promised in Matthew 7:7, “Ask, and it shall be given you; seek, and ye shall find; knock, and it shall be opened unto you.”

      Your sister in Christ~
      Barbara

  10. Mark (Cov)~
    What a WONDERFUL comment. It reminds me of the parable of the prodigal. The culture of the times would say…the son wanted his inheritance..therefore he wanted his father dead…and from the father’s perspective in that culture he (the father) was to see his son as dead and never take him back. So what did the son do? He went off and squandered the inheritance and eventually had to do what would horrify any good jewish boy…he had to feed the swine…he then realized that he could not live in such a state…since culturally he knew he could no longer be a son he decides that maybe he can be a servant and starts for home. What did the father do? He watched every day for his son and when he sees him coming up the road he shouts…get the feast ready…he runs and embraces his son…he in every way broke all the rules of the culture and welcomed his son back with open arms…he DID NOT say oh sorry….the rules dictate you must be dead to me now….Now the older brother wasn’t so very happy about it…but the father reminds the older brother that he still has his inheritance and has been in the family and always would be…possibly this points to the fact that the prodigal wouldn’t be able to rely on the inheritance he might have but he was still a son, still loved and cherished by the father and the other brother was no short changed in the deal in any way. To me the older brother is to be pitied. Why would he want the door closed to his brother?? But the parable of the prodigal is to me proof that we may loose a goody or two in heaven at the beama seat but not our right to be in the family and loved.
    Shalom and thanks so much for the wonderful comment. It warmed my heart. 🙂

    • Tess~

      Being a “prodigal” has nothing, whatsoever, to do with what I am talking about, and had you actually studied what I wrote rather than using that time to find and paste an unloving and condemning poem to a fellow believer, you would know that. I am truly sorry that you are unable to take the whole Word of God and explain it, but it doesn’t change what it says.

      Barbara

    • Glad it was an encouragement. That is the way it should be Christian to Christian.

      I too was a prodigal at one time. From the point of view of the prodigal, I did not know I was until shortly before I returned. The love of my earthly father taught me about the love of my Heavenly Father. Yes, my dad could have given up on me and quit but instead he kept the door open to my heart by prayer. I actually disappeared for 14 months and “somehow” he found me. Sent word to me via a not so a good person. And I reconciled. But did I, or was it the love of my father that kept the door open? We know the answer…my dad kept the door open and he did not throw me away like so much trash.

      And a simple common sense approach is I never un-became his son. The genetics were slammed into place when the seed and the egg united. So I will always be his son. It was and still is my choice to reap the benefits of being an heir to my father, but as to never having a place at his table that was settled at birth.

      And so it is with my Heavenly Father. True I may ditch the benefits of being joint heir with my big brother, Jesus the Christ, but I will always have a place at the table. I am a member of The Family…that was settled at my new birth. Neither man nor beast can remove me from the love of The Father. It is a done deal signed in The Blood of Jesus, my Messiah. Amen and Hallelujah!

  11. P.S. I’ve been the prodigal and I’ve also been the brother but I realize most I wanna be like my DAD…Abba Father! Thank you for always taking your kids and teaching them, training them, spanking them and loving them always.

  12. Well Sis, you are correct that you did not chose your parents. And believe it or not, if you are a true Christian then God chose you first and you only agreed once The Holy Spirit moved on you. You did not nor could not recognize you were in darkness until The Holy Spirit revealed that bit of info to you. It is not a false analogy, it is truth. What do you do with John 15? Specifically John 15:16, 19? Or how about Eph 1:4? How about 1 Peter 2:4? Father God knew you and I before the foundations of the earth….how do I know that truth? Simple…Jeremiah 1:5. You see, Father God is not a respecter of persons so what is and was good for Jeremiah is also good for me. I’m paraphrasing scripture which Jesus also did…and since we are taught to be like Him I do this as well. And yes I have read your comments in the September blogs. The problem is you keep using carnal man instead of the spirit of a man. But let us use your carnal man example of Prince William. At what point is the Prince no longer a Prince…or to be more precise…at what point is he no longer a son genetically tied to his parents? Simple answer…never. Why? Because the seed has been implanted into the egg. The difference between the Old Covenant and the New Covenant is carnal verses spirit. Through Jesus my Messiah there are many sons and daughters of which I am one. Praise God He chose me.

    And I was not passing judgment on Gods mental condition so don’t twist my words or intent. I was stating a common sense fact. And since we know what schizophrenic is by definition, then common sense is… the opposite applies to Daddy God. It is real simple for me to see that you have taken my words and are trying to twist them. How do I know that tidbit? You take a common sense statement twisting it that I pass judgment on our Creator. Give me a break Barbara. I would have to be dumber than a brick to pass judgment on El Shaddai doncha think?

    Here is another truth. God does not nor will He create putting into action creation in the natural and do something very odd in the spirit. Why? Well for starters everything began in the spirit realm first. Everything you as a human see right now started in the spirit realm. Truth! And if you would think it through you could see that fact. God is spirit Sis. He started everything in the spirit. The fundamental pattern was set in the spirit first. He created and then saw it was good. The good He saw was first in His mind. Then He spoke it into existence. A simple observation of logic in scripture. And just as God gave us each emotion, He also gave us logic. Why? Because all these things that are good and helpful have come from above.

    I have spoken truth, not my opinion. But it is your opinion, it seems, that common sense cannot apply to scripture. I ask you a question. Why do you deem it your duty to be argumentative and tear at people? How do I know this tidbit as well. Simple. I have watched you for some time. Have you not heard that love covereth a multitude of sins? That is why as soon as Adam and Eve hid from Father God, God Himself covered them, Genesis 3:21, with a covenant using skins of animals. How do I know that bit of info? Common sense. Abraham followed the example God taught him about the covering and covenant so Abraham copied the example with a ram as he was instructed. All through scriptural history, Father God taught blood covenant so that when the day came, His only Son would finish and seal those that heard the calling of His choosing by the New Covenant in His own body.

    The writers of these blogs have laid scripture after scripture and yet you argue. I don’t need to give you arguments or scriptures. It already has been done by those that put this blog on the Internet for people like you and me. I don’t have to rebut your comments. Again, the producers of this blog already have done so. Go back and read blog after blog. If you don’t agree, no big deal. If you want to believe you have done or could do the unpardonable sin, so be it and according to your faith it will be. Take it up with Daddy God. But for goodness sake quit poking and prodding arguments here. As for me and my house, we choose to serve The Lord. God is a gentleman, He leads…He does not push. So I strive to be a gentleman as well. I’m not going to push you into heaven on earth, but if you are a true Christian I will see you some day in heaven.

    Tell ya what Sis…read Proverbs 16:28 and Proverbs 28:25. Then go read James 3:16 and do a word study on strife. I will give ya a jump start on strife….electioneering or intriguing for office.

    Sis, I don’t need an office.. You see Daddy God chose me and I’m glad He did choose me. He has placed me and I am content.

    Have a great week…I mean that sincerely. My desire is you be blessed and may Father God’s face shine upon on you. Specifically, Num 6:24-26 The LORD bless thee, and keep thee:
    The LORD make his face shine upon thee, and be gracious unto thee:
    The LORD lift up his countenance upon thee, and give thee peace.

        • Sorry, again, Mark. I thought I could get my comments done, but I live in the path of Hurricane Sandy, so there’s been a lot to do to get prepared. Everything is pretty much done, so I’ll probably have it posted Monday. Just to let you know, if the power goes out, I won’t be getting back to you for awhile.

          Barbara

          • Barbara, be at peace concerning a reply to me. I just prayed concerning you and yours in the path of Sandy. I know the sounds of wind and rain…I was pretty much raised in Baton Rouge. Now I live in the Northeast part of Oklahoma. I’ve seen my share of hurricanes and tornadoes. Rest assured that the same power Jesus used in speaking to the waves and the wind lives in you. So fear not…and speak. I promise you, and I speak from experience, the powers of nature will hear those that move in bold faith.

            Just a quick preaching :>) from Matt 8:25-27 and Mark 8:30. The word rebuke here means to verbally censure, sort of as we would towards a bully. It is the same thought and word in Matt 17:18 and Luke 8:24 when speaking to those spirits of darkness that move to destroy. The sea that Jesus and his talmidim (disciples)suffered a sudden violence on was a mixture of natural events that had been harnessed by darkness for the purpose to destroy all those on that little ship. Jesus recognized it was not a normal storm because darkness entered into the winds and waves with an assignment against them. So Jesus spoke. I can just see Jesus, irritated at being awaken from a good nap and taking a stance on the ship. He told that wind and wave to shut up and git. He did not stand on the edge of the boat and have a polite chat. No, He directly ordered those elements harnessed by darkness to stand down because He instantly understood the enemies agenda.

            This is the same word used for “rebuke” in 2 Tim 4:2. We are to be instant in season and out of season to speak directly to the winds of darkness that would destroy us and those around us. To be more clear, we are to be instant in recognizing when the enemy sabotages nature to harness natural forces to disrupt or harm. Once we recognize, then stand therefore and speak with the Boldness of The Greater One that in in us. For He that is in me and you is greater than he that is in this world.

            Be safe, and sleep well…and don’t forget Gods will is to protect life. So assess your heart to vote on The Lords side.

          • Mark~

            Thank you for the extension! Although we got everything done, I probably won’t get my response finished right now. Also, thank you for the encouraging words and prayers. I spent my life in the West, so hurricanes are something new. We prayed at church yesterday, of course, and we’ve continued to keep it in prayer. We’re told not to be anxious for anything, and with God in control, I’m not. Over the last few hours, the wind and rain has really picked up. I think it’s supposed to hit pretty hard tomorrow.

            Well, thanks again. I do appreciate the thoughts and prayers. I know we don’t agree on a lot, but it’s a comfort that brothers and sisters can come together despite that.

            God bless you~
            Barbara

  13. Mark~

    Thank you, again, for your prayers. We were spared from Hurricane Sandy. We had a lot of wind and rain, but the power didn’t even go out in our part of the city. I thank God for His blessing. So many others experienced so much devastation, and my heart and prayers go out to them.

    You said quite a bit about what you perceive to be arguing on my part with the “producers of this blog” because they have given “scripture after scripture.” I have only written Chris and Justin a handful of times, and I don’t know of any of my responses that could be classified as arguing. Yes, I have disagreed with them and have given an explanation with Scripture to support my view, but there isn’t anything out of line with this. You aren’t implying that the people who produce this site can never be wrong, are you? Also, because you have followed my posts, you know that Chris hasn’t responded to my comments and Justin hasn’t had the time to read and respond to what I wrote, so neither has rebutted my comments.

    As far as your “schizophrenic” remark, I was not twisting your words. You clearly said, “Because my Father God is not schizophrenic….” Now, I have no doubt that you don’t believe that God is schizophrenic, but that’s not the point. The point is that were implying that I do because, in your mind, that is the only possible reason that anyone could use to support the idea that a true believer could lose his or her salvation. If you can give me another reason why you would have used that particular word, please let me know. I have given what I believe to be solid support, in the four biblical examples, to prove my viewpoint. If you are able to refute my evidence, then please do so, but to dismiss it with a general and unsupported comment that “The problem is you keep using carnal man instead of the spirit of a man” is not a valid argument because you have used no reasoning or Scripture. If you want to provide evidence in support of your comment, I will be better able to address it.

    Please reread my example on Prince William. I gave an analogy to explain one thing only, how the word “heir” has both a present and future application in order to explain and reconcile verses such as John 5:24 to Titus 1:2. I neither stated nor implied that it had any other application, so there is no need to defend a premise that I never suggested.

    As to what I do with Jeremiah 1:5, John 15:16, Ephesians 1:4-5, and I Peter 2:4, I reconcile them to the whole of God’s Word (Matt. 4:4, II Tim. 3:16). What I believe you are suggesting with these verses and your comment, “Praise God He chose me” is that God, before the “foundation of the world,” chose certain people for salvation, which means, of course, that certain other people were excluded from being chosen for salvation. What, then, do you do with John 3:16, which says, “For God so loved THE WORLD, that he gave his only begotten Son, that WHOSOEVER believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life” and with II Peter 3:9, which says, “The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that ANY should perish, but that ALL should come to repentance” (all caps mine)? Doesn’t the John verse emphatically state that Christ died for all humanity and all who believe and repent will be saved? Also, wouldn’t it be a silly sentiment, as given in the Peter verse, for God to declare that it is not His will that any person should perish if He, in fact, created people to perish? Finally, the viewpoint that excludes some people from salvation calls into serious question mankind’s inherent value above all creation. It seems more than absurd that God would create something in His image intentionally to perish, given that He, Himself, commands us to choose life (Deut. 30:19).

    What the verses in Ephesians mean is that, because we are saved in Christ, then we are chosen out of the world to be holy, without blame, and predestined to the adoption of children Jesus Christ. In other words, God’s plan from the foundation of the world was that whosever calls upon the name of the Lord will be conveyed into the kingdom of God (Col. 1:3), becoming beneficiaries of all blessings in Christ Jesus as written in verses 4-7. The Jeremiah verse speaks only to God’s omniscience with regard to His plan for each person, not to any selection process wherein some are chosen at the exclusion of others. The verse in John carries the same idea as the others. It’s important to read everything in these verses, not just the word “chosen.” These verses speak of God’s plan for those who call upon His Son. We have been chosen out of the world for the express purpose of bearing fruit, for example. God’s plan is also seen Romans 8:28-30, companion verses to Jeremiah 29:11.

    Please reread my comments about the unpardonable sin. I never wrote that I “believe [I] have done” it. If you want to exchange ideas about whether my interpretation is incorrect, please offer Scripture and reason, not the dismissive comment that “If you want to believe you have done or could do the unpardonable sin, so be it….”

    You wrote, “…if you are a true Christian then God chose you first and you only agreed once The Holy Spirit moved on you. You did not nor could not recognize you were in darkness until The Holy Spirit revealed that bit of info to you.” Your comments, here, are correct except for the statement that “God chose you first” because you, as I understand what you have written, believe that God, before the foundation of the world, selected you for salvation over others, which contradicts John 3:16 and II Peter 3:9 as I wrote earlier. The rest of your statements agree with a sequence of events that I have posted before. I would have just referred you to the post except that I don’t remember the date, so I will repost it here:

    1. God, ALONE, draws us. This is God’s sovereignty.

    ~ “No one can come to Me unless the Father who sent Me draws him; and I will raise him up at the last day” (Jn. 6:44).

    ~ “”Behold, I stand at the door and knock. If anyone hears My voice and opens the door, I will come in to him and dine with him, and he with Me” (Rev. 3:20).

    2. Man, ALONE, either accepts or rejects God’s call upon his life. This is his free will.

    If anyone in the world (Jn. 3:16) “hears” and “opens the door” (Rev. 3:20), he or she will DO the following, keeping in mind, of course, that these are not human “works” that we offer a holy God in order to have our sins covered to receive salvation but, rather, an acknowledgement of our need for a Savior. (Caps mine)

    ~ “But as many as RECEIVED him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, [even] to them that BELIEVE on his name” (Jn. 1:12).
    ~ “REPENT therefore and be converted, that your sins may be blotted out, so that times of refreshing may come from the presence of the Lord” (Acts 3:19).

    ~ “that if you CONFESS with your mouth the Lord Jesus and BELIEVE in your heart that God has raised Him from the dead, you will be saved” (Rom. 10:9).

    ~ “For ‘whoever CALLS on the name of the LORD shall be saved'” (Rom. 10:13).

    The above verses are very clear. Whosoever “believes,” “receives,” “repents,” “confesses,” and “calls” will be saved, and one can only do this if he or she has free will.

    Note: In a previous dialogue, the other person refused to acknowledge that these verses even existed. While he was able to then prove that God’s sovereignty is all there is to take into consideration, I’m sure that you can see that this is a totally erroneous way to arrive at doctrine.

    3. God, ALONE, saves us, chooses us out of the world in accordance to His plan before the foundation of the world. This is His sovereignty.

    ~Matthew 19:25-26
    ~Ephesians 1, 2:8

    As you can see, once Scripture is reconciled (II Tim. 3:16), God’s truth will be manifest. God draws us to Him. If we accept, God saves us; He chooses us out of the world and into His kingdom.

    You wrote, “Why do you deem it your duty to be argumentative and tear at people?” You know, Mark, disagreeing with someone’s opinion and offering what I think is sound biblical evidence to support my view is not being “argumentative;” it is being a good steward over God’s Word, something we are all called to be. Believers, and that includes me, are to “contend for the faith” (Jude 1:3). If I think a believer is incorrect in his or her interpretation of Scripture, I will say something. There is nothing wrong with this. In fact, we should bring it to another believer’s attention, something, by the way, that I have always sought from believers about my interpretations, which you know because you “have watched [me] for some time.” There are also false teachers, people who handle the word deceitfully (II Cor. 4:2), and we are not to allow the leaven, or false doctrine, of the Pharisees (Matt. 16:12) to pollute the body of Christ. As I’ve written before, coming out of a cult that has perverted the Word, potentially sending 13 million plus people to hell for eternity, I take that duty very seriously. I’m not sure what you want me to do with your comment that I “tear at people.” If you want to give an example, I’ll address it.

    Finally, I have no idea what you are talking about with regard to your telling me that “[You] don’t need an office” or by implying that I am “electioneering or intriguing for office.” You have also called me “dishonest,” a “whisperer,” and “greedy” (Prov. 16:28, 28:25 respectively). If you’re going to accuse another person of such horrible things, don’t you think you should provide some real evidence, or do you actually think that Scripture supports personal attacks, especially with no verification?

    Mark, you had quite a bit to say to me and about me, but, unfortunately, nothing you wrote has any basis in sound argument or Scripture. The fact is that truth can stand on it’s own; it doesn’t need to use fallacy. Lest you think that I am falsely accusing you, go back through your response to me. If you take out every thought in which you have accused me of something or have called me a name, everything in which your response was not an accurate reflection of what I wrote, and everything in which your conclusion, whether to prove your point or disprove mine, consisted of one sentence with no scriptural support or reasoning, there is pretty much nothing except comments on unrelated topics and telling me that what you put forth is truth and logic and common sense, implying that mine is not.

    Mark, rather than call me names and accuse me of things, why don’t you take my four examples and reconcile them with what you believe? Why don’t you take the reasoning and conclusions that I put forth and disprove them, using all Scripture? If you can do that, then I will agree with your claim in which you said, “I have spoken truth, not my opinion.”
    God gave us His Word so that we would know the truth, so it stands to reason that it can be known. As I’ve written so many times, I don’t like be wrong any more than anyone else, but if I’m wrong, I’m wrong, but I expect to be presented with Scripture and logic, not personal attacks and unsupported premises.

    I pray that as we study and pray that God’s truth will be revealed to us as promised (Jn. 16:13. I will wait for your reply on my four examples and my conclusions on how I reconciled Scripture.

    God bless you~
    Barbara

  14. Hi Justin I just read your post and I’ve heard the same thing from others and thats really been a comforting to me but I recently heard a Seminary professor say that the idea of hebrews 6:6 being temporal based on the present tense is like saying “you can’t stop falling away while you’re falling away.” Or once you have fallen into the water, it is impossible to dry off, so long as you are remaining in the water. He said temporal explanation sounds good at first glance, but it is tautological. I’ve also heard other comentators say for the idea of the author saying someone cant repent while they are constantly renouncing and rejecting Christ is both illogical and should not even need to be mentioned because that is simply commonsense. Please help I dont know how to counter such an argument and they’ve really shaken me up see ive returned to the Lord but about a year ago I committed spiritual adultery I worshiped another being who is not God, I immmediatley repented but now I’m being attacked by hebrews. I departed from the living God, I feel like I did not endure, I feel like I have committed the unpardonable offence.