The BLB Blog

The official blog of Blue Letter Bible

Trusting God When Trials Hit

Posted on Posted by

20130916_trustinggod

Let’s face it: we know how difficult trials can be. We often lay wounded and troubled in the trenches of daily life. What’s worse is when trials test our trust in God. Where do we place our hope in these circumstances? Does my life reflect that God is my hope? Or, when trials hit, does my heart pour out to other things? Consider this psalm of David:

“For God alone, O my soul, wait in silence,
for my hope is from him.
He only is my rock and my salvation,
my fortress; I shall not be shaken.
On God rests my salvation and my glory;
my mighty rock, my refuge is God.
Trust in him at all times, O people;
pour out your heart before him;
God is a refuge for us.” Psalm 62:5-8

This is a battle-cry. It is the bold profession of a man who, though trudging through trials and attacked by adversaries, still embraces divine hope. It is a self-sermon of sorts, a homily to remind the heart that our God of eternal salvation is a God that we can trust in our present reality . What did David do when this trial hit and his faith was tested? He preached! Indeed, he preached the message of gospel hope to himself. “O my soul,” he cried (verse 5). O my soul, trust in God alone. O my soul, remember your hope is in Him. O my soul, turn to the Rock, the Refuge, the Redeemer.

Where does our hope come from? David answers, “God alone… my hope is from him.”

God in Christ is where we ought to turn when trials hit. After all, is there any other fountain of living water? Any other refuge of protection? God is not merely one among many hopes. He is our only hope! He “alone is [our] rock and salvation.”

Christians, if you ever doubt this, then consider the wonder of the cross: “If God is for us, who can be against us? He who did not spare his own Son but gave him up for us all, how will he not also with him graciously give us all things?” (Romans 8:31-32). He is the one who, through shedding perfect blood on the Cross, secured our eternal position in heaven. How much more would this mighty God provide for our temporal needs?

What about you? When sin seeps in, when trials strike, when temptations test, when all else is lost, will you preach this message to yourself? Will you then share this divine hope with others?

“Trust in him at all times, O people; pour out your heart before him…”

Comments

  1. “pour out your heart before him;
    God is a refuge for us.”

    That is trust. Sharing those things that concern us most – and out of that relationship comes the sheltering of our hearts and minds from worry

    A powerful psalm & lesson. Thanks for sharing

  2. Yes Chris where do we turn. I witness to the fact that we must trust fully not as a feeling but with the confidence of a person to their God.
    This is faith.
    This is truth
    2Cor 7:11
    pain can help get a better perspective, of God and His Love to us

  3. God confounds the wise, the natural mind has reasoned theology. What theology can the natural mind discover? Human theology spawns paganism. This is not much comfort for anyone who is asked why they believe. Explanations abound yet there is sure confirmation for us who have heard His call and believe His Gospel. Surely a review of our being, our personal life will find the guidance of His presence. Certainly we know that love awaits discourse, eager to share. The only stoppages after the fulfillment of the perfect sacrifice that opened access through the blood expended on the cross are our own reservations. Our Father is limitless, we must fall into His embrace.

  4. Amen Bob!

    Jerry S. to answer your question, No I never doubted your belief that Jesus is God. I just didn’t see where you’d answered the question and I did not want it left hanging out there. Your words have always affirmed Jesus as Messiah and Indeed God.

    Time and time again however when Christians focus on the Jewishness of Jesus, His culture, His people NT Christians will get upset. It worked exactly the same way in reverse when Jesus spoke of Gentiles to the Jews. The Jews believed THEY and only THEY were God’s people. The nation Israel and the Jews are not failures, their blindness was intended as the gate that allowed the Gentiles to be grafted in. The shoe is on the other foot now and Christians don’t like it anymore than the Jews did.

    THANK YOU CHRIS for this wonderful blog post. Blog posts like this one always makes me think of Job. God knows the end from the beginning. He knew, and always knows the outcome. The big realization for me about Job’s story is that Job honored by God to be an example for us. Job is memorialized throughout time.

    When we’re going through horrible, hard trials brought about, not by our sins, but by satan’s hatred and desire to destroy us and steal our faith, we’re given a great opportunity to shine as witnesses to others. To attest to the world that with God as our Lord and Savior none of satan’s attacks will succeed.

    God’s love for us never changes. He never sets us up to allow us to fail. He promises to uphold us through every horrific thing satan can ever visit upon us. Hebrews 13:5; Ephesians 6:10-16; 1 Corinthians 10:12-13. Because we are God’s faithful children satan will throw all he’s got at us but it will only serve to prove God’s point each and every time.

    With God there is no way to loose. Without God there is no way to succeed.

    • Tess,

      Something else we can add to your observations; Our Creator does not use Majority Opinion or Consensus of Opinion like we do, for whatever reason we may have, in declaring TRUTH or as Bob D. puts it “love awaits discourse, eager to share”. If I (or any of us) stood beside Yeshua alone opposite all of mankind, HE and I (or you) would be on the deciding end of things because HE alone is TRUTH.

      Take caution when generalizing and not lump and entire “people group”, Jews or Christians, under any contrived thought i.e., “NT Christians will get upset”, “The Jews believed”, “The nation Israel and the Jews”, “their blindness”, “Christians don’t like it anymore than the Jews did.”. There exist many, many “Jews” who know and follow their Messiah and still remain “Jews”, not Christians. There is no reason for these Jewish believers to do anything else than to continue being Jewish. Is there?

      Through these “horrible times” there will always be a “faithful remnant” 1Ki 19:18 HNV, Rom 9:27 HNV, Rom 11:5 HNV, and remnants are usually found to be in the minority.

      J.

      • You’re absolutely right Jerry S. God plus one is always a majority provided the Holy Spirit is present.

        You’re also right we shouldn’t pigeon hole folks into categories but neither should we point to what we know someone is not doing and make that the issue. When we speak of the church we need to say the church, when we speak of the jews we need to say the jews. Labeling in order to be specific is not clumping every person into the issue(s) you are discussing. Not to be able to address the topic in the context we know is being discussed and derailing’s points that are being discussed. If folks choose strawman tactics
        (refute a proposition by replacing it with a superficially similar yet unequivalent proposition) we cannot prevent them from doing so but it quickly becomes apparent.

        You state:
        There exist many, many “Jews” who know and follow their Messiah and still remain “Jews”, not Christians. There is no reason for these Jewish believers to do anything else than to continue being Jewish. Is there?

        My answer:
        If their Messiah is Jesus I don’t see why there would be a problem. If that is not the case and your argument/proposal is that Jews can remain Jews and not profess Jesus as their Messiah and Lord then I believe Hebrews 6:4-6 defeats that position. The context of Hebrews 6 was that folks were wanting to go back to Judaism to escape persecution and not be identified as believers in Jesus. They were told quite emphatically “No” by Paul and it’s not my position it is scripture.

        Open identification with and commitment to Jesus Christ as Lord and Savior is not an option. All of scripture from Genesis 1 to the end of Revelation is divinely inspired and infallible. There are transliteration and translation errors but they do not change core biblical teaching into what we’d rather it say.

        Hebrews 8 points to the resolution of this problem. Stephen story in Acts 6 and Acts 7 point out that you can’t straddle the fence. If it had been ok for the Jews to simply remain within their jewish faith and customs then both Stephen and Paul (all the apostles, disciples and martyred faithful suffered agony, persecution and death in vain. I don’t see anyway to avoid that fact but if that is truly the issue here and you can point to biblical scripture that disproves this then by all means make the case.

    • Gen 11:7 Language imparts and impairs communication. Look to your own preference for a biblical translation, inter-generational disconnects or merely that any different language or custom/culture is foreign to the native understanding. Rom 8:26-37 The uniqueness of the baptism, wilderness events and the commencement of His Gospel introduce the vital reality Jesus communicates. Jesus tells us that the Father is in Him, He is in the Father, He and the Father are one and those that saw Jesus saw the Father. True communication comes from unity. The potential for union with the divine Jesus purchased with His blood. There can be no doubt what Jesus wants for His friends Jhn 15:15, His body. Eph 1:17-23
      Jesus is knocking on your door. Luk 24:49, Act 1:4

      • Bob your comments remind me of the Emmaus Road (Luke 24) account. There’s SO much in them to learn. I took note of a couple of things about this account relative to the topic we’re discussing here.

        #1. I noticed that divine revelation and a journey was needed. Luke 24:5-7 The angels pointed out to them Why do you seek the living among the dead and told them Remember what/who He spoke..and THEN they remembered. (Our natural minds try to discover spiritual things amoung the dead when we encounter a risen Lord.)

        #2. Luke 24:13-16 Then the two embark on a trip (T humans trying to work it out in their minds. Once we encounter God we consider the matter with another fleshly person. We ponder Spiritual things with our human brains. Kinda cool that it was a ” 7 ” mile journey (prefect number).

        #3. Luke 24: 17-27 God/Jesus points out that they are sad. We’ll never get it relying on our human understanding only and that will make us sad. Then, and I laugh, they ask God if He’s a duffas and doesn’t know what’s been going on. Our Mighty God let’s them tell Him what their sad brain conclusions are. He listens and then calls them foolish and expounds spiritual truths to them. Of course they still don’t get it because their still missing the Spirit. (Human reasoning will never be sufficient but God/Jesus will travel all the way with you until you get to where you’re desired destination)

        #4. Luke 24:28-29 This part always brings tears. Jesus wouldn’t and won’t impose upon us to enter in. We can let Him travel on or out of love, wanting Him to Abide with us invite Him into our house (soul) The realization that the day is almost over, to me means there is a point of decision that comes into play. He’ll go on unless you want Him to come into your house. They were going to a village. That’s interesting. A place where people abide with each other. Maybe symbolic of a crowd of people all living in a similar manner. (Denomination or Doctrine??) Doesn’t matter because inviting Him into your house is the key not conforming to what village mentality. If the village were important He’d have revealed himself once they got to it.

        #5. Luke 24:30-35 He goes into their house (soul/heart) Now normal jewish culture would dictate that the head of the house break the bread but Jesus does and they let Him signifying making our Lord the head of our house. Once we do that we partake in the Lords supper (bread and blood analogy of the Lords supper) and our eyes are opened (symbol of our true conversion. The person of Christ disappears and the Spirit and truth burns in their hearts and prompts them to jump up that very hour and go to (Jerusalem-symbolic of the correct people village) that very hour to go tell the others that the risen Lord truly appeared to Simon and how He was known by the breaking of bread.

        Loads more in the next verses but what jumps out is the honeycomb and broiled fish and yummies are eaten. Honey (symbolic of God’s love).

        I know all of you must know all this but I just had to share it because of the aspects of our conversions and attempts to understand with our human minds what is Spirit enlightened.

        • Last night I was part of a community recognition event at a board of trustees meeting. Later some mentioned that they did not care to be mentioned in this way. Well that recognition was vital to encourage others to support community. A person could maneuver in a culture to support themselves with selfish opportunism or rather, share their abilities and skills to build community. The honorees were encouraged in this example and felt even better about their efforts. Whew, and you thought you were too wordy. It is of great importance to share that which may be already familiar to you but a mighty message of the Spirit for others. Our Father blesses all the audience with these comments. Let us pray that Jesus gifts Chris Poblete with abundance of blessings for the benefice of this forum.

  7. Thanx, Chris, for putting the Psalms out there at this time. I needed a way to encourage a friend who is in the hospital recovering from a stroke … and the news that they found cancer in his liver and pancreas as well. Centering this brother on “the rock,” and the hope that we have before us really buoyed his spirits.
    Blessings for being the catalyst for what I could share with him at the time he needed to hear it.

  8. Great word Chris, I have been a Christian for most of my days. A rebellious son many of them. It wasn’t until recently that I fully grasped the grace and love that God has for me (us). As David writes in Psalms 139 O Lord You have searched me and You have known me. You know my sitting down and my rising up; You understand my thought afar off.(vs.1-2) To fully submit to my Lord (2 Cor. 3;17), is Liberty. I would constantly feel condemnation from the enemy due to my rebellion. David goes on to say in Ps. 139 that, Such knowledge is too wonderful for me; It is high, I cannot attain it. As you read this chapter you truly see David’s understanding of Gods mercy and grace and love for us. God knew me and all my days while I was still a secret thought in my parents minds. Jesus knew all of those secret sins that nobody else knews of before I ever committed them; yet He still died for me, He protected and still protects me, He loves me just as I am. The freedom and liberty in that? It truly is a breath of fresh air. No trial, no tribulation will overtake my Lord, my God, my Savior by surprise. Indeed the darkness (vs.12), shall not hide from You, But the night shines as the day; The darkness and the light are both alike to You.

  9. Chris, To answer your question,

    Will you preach the message to yourself?

    Yes I do with the help of the Holy Spirit, in fact if not for Him etching of the Word Of God into my heart to be heard by my ears and sunken into my soul I would never make it.

    That is in those times when you feel lost and weary and the flesh wants to give up.

    What the Holy Spirit has taught me allows me to stand, to grow, and to see the Hope and Promises from My Father when I can see none in this lost world.

    He always delivers those who keep seeking, keep hoping, and keep Loving. Delight yourself in the LORD

    Donna

    • AMEN! (((((((DONNA)))))) hugs
      So nice to see you Sis! I’ve been missing your sweet words and godly wisdom and encouragement!

  10. Tess, over here!

    One thing for sure… there’s no straw men involved with me. I write just what I feel lead to write with little held back.

    Thanks for the meaty discussion. The “I’m OK, you’re OK”, “Can’t we just all get along” flow of discussion concerning the WOG makes it difficult for “Iron to sharpen Iron” and can help to serve many a false teaching with the use over analogizing and mysticism, Tts 1:13-16 HNV.

    To your answer –

    A few posts back you mentioned speaking to a friend about what a Christian experiences when witnessing to a nonbelieving Jew. This is the topic string I’ve been following with you and anyone else who is brave enough to join in.

    You write “I don’t see why there would be a problem”. When witnessing to many nonbelieving Jews the mention of the Christian Jesus can bring to light the horrific atrocities perpetrated against the Jewish race by Christians throughout the last 1500 years or more that many Christians are not aware of or simple ignore for whatever reason the chose to. Yes, this can be a problem and a very difficult barrier to break through. Many believing Jews are disowned by family members for their faith in Messiah. I having trouble following the second portion of your sentence, did you intend to write the words “and not profess”?

    The letter to the “Hebrews” is just that. A letter to the “Hebrews”. Believing gentiles can apply all that is written in this letter, but to understand it, it must be taken from the Jewish stand point. The majority of this letter concerns Yom Kippur (The Day of Atonement), Lev 23:27-28 HNV.

    Heb 6:4-6 NHV, the point being made here simply is that the Perfect sacrifice need not be sacrificed again because it was once for all time and for everyone. If HE were to suffer again as HE did, it would be an open exposure of the firsts inability. These verses are not about losing our salvation. I dissected these verses back when Justin Alfred was submitting posts. Yes, Paul was pointing the Jews this letter was written to that the Promised Messiah, the High Priest of the Day of Atonement, Yeshua had come, Hallelujah! Reading the letter to the Hebrews from a Hebrew perspective, not a Traditional Christian perspective can remove scales from our eyes.

    Our faith in the Hebrew Messiah is based on the Hebrew scripture. A believing Jew, whether of our day or 2000 years ago, would not need to “discard” their scripture in exchange for faith in what has been written and promised in the Hebrew scripture. Luk 24:13-27 HNV, notice vs. 25 – 27, Yeshua taught the disciples of whom HE was, not from the Gospels, those writings did not exist. HE taught them of who HE was from TaNaK.

    I’m running out of room here. Continue if you want to. Forgive the errors, I’m rushing to finish.

    J.

    • Amen to the iron sharpening iron. I get so much of what I lack seeing different matters discussed from different vantage points.

      Allegory the mysteries contained in the bible are not the same as fables of men. Paul and John were not CRETANS and neither are most of the people who take the literal, allegorical and mystical meanings the bible holds and study them. It’s the misuse of them that is a problem. When they disagree with the literal interpretation THAT indicates real problems. There are all kinds are over 300 rhetorical devises used in the bible (allegory, symbolic language, parables, fables, synonyms, the list goes on and on. To deny that you’d have to say God has feathers and is a bird wanting to gather chicks under His wings for example. Also it’s WAY out of bounds paint folks with these sorts of broad brushes. I hope you aren’t making that mistake. Doing those sorts of things in where my frustration lies with all of us. Myself included. There’s a very interesting insight into the statement “Cretans are always liars….in Titus 1:12. Epimenides was a Cretan. If Epimenides was a liar and said Cretan’s are liars is he lying? The truth is the truth don’t paint with such a brush! The verse you sight is talking about “JEWISH FABLES AND COMMANDMENTS OF MEN” your misapplying it! Jewish fables are not the same as allegory or the mysteries contained in the bible and be careful my friend that you do not put yourself into the position of taking scripture OUT OF CONTEXT. The context is idle talkers that are not sound in their faith and I would respectfully submit that painting with broad stroking theology bible-babble comes closer to not being sound in FAITH than does applying allegory if done in a manner not violent to the literal interp. of the text.

      I think maybe we all should paint with a kinder brush. I love the discourse and you make so many great points. I have to go right now so haven’t read the rest of your comment but will.

      • Maybe I don’t need to do this but, it was the “reprove them sharply” portion of Tts 1:13-16 HNV that I was connecting to the “I’m OK, you’re OK”, “Can’t we just all get along” point. Not the fables and commandments of men portion. “OVER analogizing and Mysticism (not mysteries) are what lead to false teaching and it abounds more than we know.

        Funny about Epimenides being a liar because he was from Crete. I’m sure you know the statement of the prophet was the lie, correct?

        Look forward to what you think of the rest…

        J.

        If you don’t enjoy this kind of give and take, let me know straight on. Like I tell Bob, there’s no need to reply to my comments.

        • So sorry dear friend. I circle stuff from every angle. It can be so very annoying. I’m very guilty of being conversationally A R. I color code all my m&m’s before I eat them and what may appear to be a rebuke more often than an answer to a rebuke I brought up to myself and then went and made sure I wasn’t guilty of it.

          Actually I got a chuckle because I’d just finished typing a total analogy of Luke 24 then read your Titus 1 scripture. Then I thought oh my did I make an analogy I shouldn’t have, then I noticed the Cretan thing and said oh my what’s a Cretan and am I one then I found nifty stuff about it and thought I’d share it, then I rushed off the the grocery store where they forgot to put the cheese in my bag. LOLOLOL!!! And I wonder why you can’t follow my thinking!

          I wanted to let you know I ordered a HalleluYah Scriptures. I’m looking forward to getting it and better acquainting myself with more literal Hebrew wording it offers. A study friend has a Jewish bible and I’m going to get him one as well. I love my NKJV because the wording is comfy and I can then concentrate on what it’s saying but there’s so much deep meaning and help when we utilize more than one translation or go do word searches, etc.

          Jerry you can email me anytime if you’d like. I probably shouldn’t be going so off topic on BLB. Or if you use facebook I can be found at GodLink where I’m smart enough to just post scripture with beautiful pictures. I know I can really confuse folks and I don’t want to do that.

          • Understood… Mean while back on the dusty Road to Emmaus and Luk 24:27 HNV.

            Consider the TRUTHS revealed by Jesus with the Ruach HaKodesh to HIS walking companions. Two Jews with a knowledge of Hebrew scripture as complete as anyone, yet further enlightened by the revelation of the LAW the Writings and the Prophets. Something there for all of us to discover.

            J.

          • Notice also, Luk 24:20 HNV. It states the “chief Kohanim” and the “rulers” condemned and crucified Yeshua. Not the Jewish people as a whole. Logic paradox here – (If) the false teaching that the “Jews” rejected their Messiah was true, (then) the two Jews walking with the promised JEW would be lumped into the whole of those doing the rejecting, 1Cr 5:6-7 HNV, Gal 5:9 HNV.

            J.

        • Have you ever seen the Disney movie “Up”?

          LOL SQUIRREL! That’s me! Unless you’ve seen that movie the joke is lost.

        • Jerry,
          You wrote: Funny about Epimenides being a liar because he was from Crete. I’m sure you know the statement of the prophet was the lie, correct?
          ~~~~~~~~~~~
          Not exactly. v. 13 says the statement is true so you have to figure out the paradox.

          Titus is there setting up elders among the Cretes if they are all liars? The readers of the day would get this but a cursory reading without further study gives us something we need to figure out. If you don’t unravel it you’ll miss a gem.

          The statement is false but the prophet said truth and he said it about himself!

          Titus 1:12-13 One of them, a prophet of their own, said, “Cretans are always liars, evil beasts, lazy gluttons.” v. 13 This testimony is true.

          If you try to read it as though what he’s saying about the Cretes is true and you don’t know the history behind it you can mis-interp. it as the truth being “All Cretans are always liars.” and then it says this statement is true.

          Interestingly, Paul makes reference to this paradox, in a way that shows he knew of it but may not have understood it: He says of Cretans that “even one of their own prophets has said, ‘Cretans are always liars, evil brutes, lazy gluttons.’ This testimony is true.” But the context suggests that he took it seriously as a denunciation of Cretans. (which of course is not true he was using hyperbole and sarcastic humor.)

          If you don’t know the story behind it all you miss the gem. Remember I was talking to you earlier about rhetorical devises used in the bible. This is a dandy. Just a cursory reading can lead to a wrong conclusion but the Holy Spirit leads us to all truth. Epimenides was a Jewish prophet who professed a belief in Christ but was introducing false doctrine and that is why Paul said “REBUKE HIM STRONGLY” Gem of a thing really.

          http://c2.com/cgi/wiki?CretanParadox

          • With hopefully more clarity this time… the way I read Tts 1:12-13 HNV is this, starting with 10 and ending with 14.

            10: For there are also many unruly men, vain talkers and deceivers, especially those of the [CIRCUMCISION (dishonest Jews)],

            11: whose mouths must be stopped; men who overthrow whole houses, teaching things which they ought not, for dishonest gain’s sake.

            12: [ONE OF THEM (dishonest Jew)], a prophet of [THEIR OWN (dishonest Jews)], said, “Cretans are always liars, evil beasts, and idle gluttons.”

            13: [THIS TESTIMONY IS TRUE.(the truthful testimony here is referring to the fact that the words were actually was spoken and not a fabricated statement)] For this cause, reprove them sharply, that they may be sound in the faith,

            14: not paying attention to [YEHUDI FABLES AND MITZVOT OF MEN (dishonest Jews)] who turn away from the truth”.

            The Jews were commanded to bring the “God News” to the world, Act 1:8 HNV. This “Good News” took root in Crete and Paul (a Jew) advised Titus to instruct the native islanders of the ways of Torah. I believe these “mis-readings” happen due to the tradition of NT / Replacement Theology that in turns interprets scripture from something other than the scriptures original intent. That is the “over analogizing” and “mysticism” I speak of.

            J.

            P.s. I’m always careful of what I read from anything “Wiki”. It is an editable document and most of the internet is used for sales and self-promotion.

    • Thanks Jerry,
      I’ll go look at Hebrews with Yom Kippur within the culture. Thanks 🙂

      I hear your points about the horrific memories what the Jewish people have endured at the hands of “so-called” Christians. The same family responses happen all over the world.

      For example the ghetto’s in India are the lowest of the lowest level. Missionaries come with help and bibles in hand but if a person comes to a belief in Christ they will be run out of even the ghetto. There is a reality of what that newly converted person has to face within his or her own culture as a consequence. We also see similar reactions when people are raised around professing believers who aren’t really believers at all. How many people all around us say I won’t go to church because those people are hypocrites. In their past may be horrific experiences linked to man’s inhumanity to man under the guise of “Christianity”. It’s a very handy excuse satan hands them and then they hold against God what is more accurately ascribed to man. We can’t preach an other gospel and by no other name than His name but we can be loving in our approach and let the Spirit lead the way.

      I ask myself, can someone convert and keep it private between them and the Lord when they live in a Muslim country for example? I can’t honestly say I know the answer but I’ve read of many who do so until they can break free. And I think God always makes a way to break free or brings that person to right belief so strong that they willingly are martyred. I have faith that God is capable of handling all obstacles. This kind of thing highlights a need for sensitivity that a lot of times we don’t think about. For instance, someone may been made to kneel on rice as punishment when they were very young and it can be quite difficult to help that person get to know the real God. Then there’s the person who just uses whatever as an excuse. I talk about this because I think these things will be coming into play more and more. The term Christian already seems to be more and more successfully turned into a dirty word these days.

      Sorry to be so chatty.

      • Jews are in a unique situation though because their race/culture is their GOD and their GOD is their race / culture. Many Christians, due to the tradition of NT / Replacement Theology, believe when a Jew realizes who their Messiah is, that for some reason they are no longer Jewish, but are now Christian. This is a false teaching and the point of my comment.

        As you point out. Indians, or any nationality for that matter, who convert from Hindu, Islam, Buddhism to, let’s use the word Christianity here, do not stop being Indians because of it, but many believe this is not the case for a Jew. The false thought is that because of their belief in their own Messiah they are no longer Jews, but are now Christians. This is not only illogical, but unjust and makes it very difficult for gentiles to reach unbelieving Jews.

        J.

        P.s. this usually is where the “Inquisition” falls down on me.

        • Great points Jerry,
          Labels CAN carry connotations with them. The Christian label is one I’m proud to bare even though it can carry along with it unfortunate labels like NT/Replacement Theology. Interestingly though it doesn’t also identify the nation I’m from. It’s specific to Christ and can be a stumbling block to those who are weak. 1 Corinthians 1:23

          I would submit that your statement, “stating that that because of their belief in their own Messiah” leads to the inquisition problem you mention. There should be nothing offensive about the word Christ just as there should be nothing offensive about the word Jew. It’s a word issue that Messianic Jews have to deal with the same way Christian’s do. That’s why we can’t jump on folks when they use the term Jew. When folks use it it doesn’t always make them prejudice or indicate they are anti-semitic. Jumping to those types of conclusions can often derail the topics being discussed from all angles and cause clarification/linguistic issues. These are the issues I get frustrated with but sadly they are part of all our human frailties from all sorts of directions. We can find offense if offense is what we’re looking for but we can and should also use charitable techniques to point out ingrained truths. I’ve always found your posts charitable and your remarks very insightful but I see where the inquisition problem you mention can be a huge headache for you. Inquisitions can be everywhere for all of us.

          Your point about wiki is well taken. Any and all secular sources have the possibility of error. I’m in full agreement that the bible doesn’t and your statement about letting the bible translate the bible.

          • The post script was a tongue in cheek comment, an attempt to keep it light. Didn’t come across that way I guess. As long as we follow HIM, then HE goes before us, come what may. Inquisitions notwithstanding.

            Do you have anything else to share concerning my readings Heb 6:4-6 NHV, Luk 24:20 HNV, Luk 24:27 HNV, Tts 1:12-13 HNV? That’s what I’m really interested in hearing from you. If not, then we can leave it in the LORDS loving hands.

            J.

  11. Jerry you make very excellent points about Hebrews 6:4-6. It’s one of the verses that we need to come back to and study over and over and over until we are fully persuaded about it in our heart and our soul.

    Jerry said: Heb 6:4-6 NHV, the point being made here simply is that the Perfect sacrifice need not be sacrificed again because it was once for all time and for everyone. If HE were to suffer again as HE did, it would be an open exposure of the firsts inability.

    Dr. J Vernon McGee has an excellent teaching on Heb 6:4-9 that BLB has in it’s commentaries. http://www.blueletterbible.org/Bible.cfm?b=Luk&c=24&t=HNV#s=t_comms_997025

    Excellent points about Luke 24:20 & 27 too.

    • Yes, I’ve listened to his recording in the past. He does not hold to the majority reading of Heb 6:4-6 NHV either. I recall he provided four optional readings, but none from a Jewish POV.

      The new leader of the RCC stated today “We have to find a new balance; otherwise even the moral edifice of the Church is likely to fall like a house of cards, losing the freshness and fragrance of the Gospel.”. A new balance? What happened to the previous balance? Or the one before that one? How can the Creator of all things “lose” anything? These are the questions that arise when we over analogize what we want the WOG to say to serve whatever purpose needed. Scripture should interpret scripture with the origin(al) intent as its starting point.

      J.

      • Thanks Jerry,
        As for me, I know that God knows, I know that I will continue to study and search out His truth. I pray always in all things never to read into scripture what I want it to say. I pray always to be willing to ponder, discuss and even debate and always ask the Lord to help me with that but I try never to insist that “my” interp. is the right interp. or try to insist. I trust that God and the person will come to right understanding as we are promised that the Holy Spirit will lead us into ALL truth. I’m very interested to hear more about how you view these passages whenever you want to share them Jerry and you too Bob. Until the HS reveals 100% confirmation for me I just try to make sure I’m not guilty of anything it’s referring to. I write these hard scriptures down often and my views about them and ask God to honor His promise when He chooses to do so. Until He does I’m leary of any trap satan may throw in the mix to discourage, demean or damage the “body”. I’m not settling on Dr. McGee’s final understanding of these texts. I lean more toward the “if it were possible” and it’s not type of stance or that this scripture is specific to what they were going through at the time and that they were asking if they could believe in their hearts but outwardly deny verbally that Jesus is Messiah in order to escape the persecution that was going on around them.

    • This statement applies to anyone, Jews or goyim (not cattle, but gentiles). Read it straight forward, it is plain. The action is not with the perfect sacrifice it is with those who were once enlightened, those who fall away or in effect those who would require another sacrifice since they discount the perfection of God.

      • Historically, scholars have been prone to mangle the Word of God with human reasoning. Today this condition is exacerbated by word processing and communication developments that if it were possible, would deceive the very elect Mat 24:24. Pride afflicts self proclaimed high church and scholars by the nature of their pursuits in a manner different than other motivations. The called of God are to be lights of His presence. We cannot just get along with sin. Woe for anyone who presumes to alter the Word of God.

        • I’m glad the One who sits on Heaven Throne is my judge and not anyone else here on earth. Popes notwithstanding.

          J.

        • True Bob
          I like this quote I’m pasting but I think you’ve said it even better. I always pray to keep the teeny tiny size of my brain in comparison to that of my Creators in mind. When I don’t He soon reminds me to.

          “Sheer scholarship alone cannot reveal to us the gospel of grace. We must never allow the authority of books, institutions, or leaders to replace the authority of KNOWING Jesus Christ personally and directly. When the religious views of others interpose between us and the primary experience of Jesus as the Christ, we become unconvicted and unpersuasive travel agents handing out brochures to places we have never visited.”
          ― Brennan Manning

      • Yes Bob, as I wrote; “Believing gentiles can apply all that is written in this letter”.

        The action IS with the sacrifice; “crucify again”. The enlightened ones are not being crucified (maybe figuratively, but not physically here at least) as the “Son of God”. I’ll recant if shown to be wrong here.

        The letter is written to the Hebrews, read it from that starting point to understand what its original intent is using the entire WOG as backdrop and not using only those portions that fit our theology and then apply it to anything you like, cattle notwithstanding.

        J.

        P.s. This is the tongue in cheek inquisition I joked about and new would come. What do you say about the leader of the RCC statement from yesterday?

  12. the activity is with those who were once enlightened and have fallen away, who have partaken of the Holy Spirit. Rom 6:10, Heb 10:12-13

    • Bobby,

      Yes, the Hebrews “who were given light” (the candlestick in the Holy Place that lighted the way before GOD, Pillar of Fire by night, etc..), “tasted gifts from heaven” (Manna, quails from the sea, water from a Rock at voice command, etc.), partakers of the Ruakh Hodesh (Pillar of Cloud, Pillar of Fire, etc., etc.), “tasted the Good Word” (Mt. Sinai, etc.), “Powers” (the Ten Plagues, the entry into the Promised Land, , etc.), things that would certainly come to mind of any Hebrew who would have read or heard the letter read, yes also have “action” attributed to them, “fallen away” (g. parapiptō, verb).

      The Letter to the Hebrews as a whole has Messiah Yeshua as its main subject (our Yom Kippur High Priest) and the Greek words translated “crucify again” (g. anastauroō, verb) and “put to shame” (g. paradeigmatizō, verb) are as it says VERBS and verbs denotes the “actions” of the subject.

      Thanks for the opportunity to explain further for the benefit of those who may not know.

      J.

      P.s. College Diplomas notwithstanding.

      • A sentence does require a verb. There is more than one sentence in this matter. As to this being a Hebrew exclusive, the specific reference is to the crucifixion of Jesus. There are OT incidences of the Holy Spirit visiting or coming upon patriarchs and prophets. Jesus is the exception Who is one with the Father, the Father in Him. This was not possible before the crucifixion apart from the only begotten Son of God. There is no translation or special knowledge that alters this. Plainly this is not exclusively a Hebrew matter. We know the OT is prepared for all believers as is the NT. No man comes to the Father but by Jesus. Those of the OT who believed the Word of God are not prevented residing in Abraham’s bosom (figurative or literal) until the Lamb of God (born in their earthly lineage) fulfilled the covenant and redeemed them too. 2Cr 6:2

        • Anyone would be hard pressed to find me writing that the Letter to the Hebrews was excusive to the Hebrews or in denying all must go through the BLOOD for justification before the FATHER.

          Disingenuousness is not exclusive to unbelievers but, it is most certainly unbecoming of those who are one with the father and is a sign of a weak argument in a debate. Don’t despair because HIS Grace Reigns for all to draw from.

          I’m sure I provided a similar list of souls to you before but, none the less I’ll do it again. Adam and Havah were one with the Father, Hanokh and Eliyah were taken up to HIM, Avraham and Moshe spoke with the Father face to face, plus many more, see also Luk 2:25-39 HNV. All these before the death, burial and resurrection of Messiah and well before Acts 2 HNV. This is first year curriculum for any seminary student.

          Time for me to get off the round-a-bout with you.

          J.

          • ♪ ♫ Toot – toot! Toot! Toot – toot! Toot! ♪ ♫

            Before we continue on with your carousel of folly that the Church has replace Gods People Israel. Are you conceding that Heb 6:4-6 HNV is not about losing our salvation? Then I can help you understand more of the Letter written to the Hebrews and the verses you now cite.

            J.

            P.s. I’m not sure if the musical note symbols will appear as such, but if they don’t that’s what they are that start my comment.

        • Great points Bob,
          http://www.blueletterbible.org/audio_video/missler_chuck/Hbr/Hebrews_Vintage.cfm#Eternal_Salvation_Question

          Here’s a link to Chuck Missler’s commentary on Hebrews 6. I think he makes great points. Listen to the audio for Eternal Salvation Hebrews 6. He also makes a statement that great men of faith have differing views on this. Funny how this “very smart” man doesn’t demand through insult or self righteousness that everyone see it his way. Pretty smart fellow.

  13. Creation did not just happen. God chose to create. The image of God chooses. The entirety of human existence and presence involves this ability to choose. The answer to the controversy over whether or not one can lose their salvation is those who abide in Jesus are saved. The word, “once” is the absolute extreme for choice. Lifespan, the gift of forgiveness and love do promise more than a single opportunity. Eze 18:20-25 The word, “crucify” is hideous yet it is also accompanied by the word, “shame”. Psa 139:12, 2Ch 6:30, Rom 8:26, Hbr 4:13

    • Great points Bob. You, my brother, always speak to the point with respect to the reader.

      When I’ve pondered Hebrews 6:4-6 there are a couple of things that I notice. The word salvation or loss of salvation is not within those verses. That may very well be what they mean and truths are truths however salvation is not the topic being discussed. It’s an admonition to mature in the faith.

      It further goes on “within context” to say…

      v.16-17 For men indeed swear by the greater, and an oath for confirmation is for them an end of all dispute. Thus God, determining to show more abundantly to the heirs of promise the
      –>immutability <–of His counsel, confirmed it by an oath, 18 that by two immutable things, in which it is impossible for God to lie, we might have strong consolation, who have fled for refuge to lay hold of the hope set before us.

      Immutable definition "unchanging over time or unable to be changed."

      If Hebrews 6:4-6 were a statement that one can loose their salvation I scarcely think the following verses would follow with a confirmation like
      vs. 16-17.

      No, if 4-6 were stating lose of salvation it would follow that thread. Such an important topic(lose of salvation once saved) would be important enough to expound upon and it doesn't implying to me that reading it as such collapses the context and using 4-6 to attempt to prove our conclusion about it. I also believe the bible is inerrant. It does not make salvation through faith alone statements only to contradict itself in other verses.

      Just things to ponder.

  14. IF Heb 6:4-6 HNV is not about loosing our salvation (and at the risk of the accusation of being too confident about it… it’s not) or at the least can be shown that the majority reading of it may need further study (as I did in my exegesis of it), THEN the question of “whether we can lose our salvation” goes away, at least concerning these verses, and not wanting to be continually drawn down rabbit trails, I’ll move on from this discussion with you. I like debating, but taking a ride on the never ending Merry-Go-Round of “the choices and reasoning’s of our Being” that don’t arrive anywhere is a tactic of the Accuser of Our Brothers Israel, 1Ti 1:1-11 HNV, 2Ti 2:1-19 HNV, Rev 12:10 HNV. As far as the question of salvation is concerned and the so called controversy the question creates, take your eyes off yourself and just follow HIM and HE will go before you. It’s a matter of trust.

    It doesn’t bother me for questions to be left unanswered in cyberspace. I know and understand with my mind along with my heart and spirit of who I follow. The Hebrew Messiah, Yeshua as described in the Letter written to the Hebrews and by using the entire WOG to decipher (not only portions of the WOG that fit the particular theologies we’re astute in) what is being relayed to me there from so many years ago even if I do have or don’t have plaques hanging on my walls certifying my intelligence. There is a reason Yeshua chose and traveled with the particular Jews that HE did.

    Remember, anti-Semitism is antichrist.

    J.

    P.s. I’ll allow you to have the last comment here because as I just wrote and as much fun as it can be joking and pushing back the walls of ignorance with you, it’s time for me to slide off your hobby horse and move on to more “meaty” and fruitful discussions with those who see a value in it, Mat 9:37-38 HNV. Peace. Love.

  15. Thank You Chris,
    That was a great word of encouragement through the word of God. That is exactly what I needed to hear. David spoke to his soul, he told his soul to “wait in silence in the hope of God.” My hope is in the salvation of Jesus Christ the finished work on the cross. Because Jesus Christ endured the cross for me; therefore, through his power I can endure and make it through my crisis.

    Chris, continue to let God use you.

    Helen,

  16. It’s so hard to believe all this pain and down times come from God. People who believe in God or don’t will have good and down times. How do we even know his will in it? It must be the persona attitude, you are in charge and have a choice to be happy I’ve learned. Knowing it’s Gods will isn’t the least comforting, knowing the things that go on in this world. I choose to believe in a loving good God, and I choose to believe I am going to be happy and strong, try my hardest and better myself. Life’s too short to be depressed, especially when we see others happy and getting things they want, let alone happiness and being normal.