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John 10 and the Doctrine of Eternal Security (part 3)

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This is the third and last post in a series. If you haven’t already, please read the the introductory post. You can also read the first and second post.

In John 10:28, Jesus says the following concerning His “sheep”: “and I give eternal life to them, and they shall never perish (καὶ οὐ μὴ ἀπόλωνται εἰς τὸν αἰῶνα – kai ou mē apolōntai eis ton aiōna); and no one shall snatch them out of My hand.”

Obviously, the “hand” of Jesus in verse 28, and the “hand” of the Father in verse 29 are one and the same, as Jesus says He “and the Father are one” in verse 30.  Here, once again, we see the Subjunctive of Emphatic Negation used in an incredible way.  In a somewhat literal and amplified translation, the verses reads as follows: “and I continuously give eternal life to them, and they shall never/in no way cause themselves to perish (i.e., lose their salvation) throughout the eternity, and no one will remove, steal, carry off, drag away, or snatch and take them away out of My hand.” In order to see just exactly what Jesus is saying with reference to this truth, we are going to take a rather detailed look at this verse.

The first thing to note is that Jesus “gives us eternal life,” and no human being can, in and of himself, produce that life within himself or herself – it is indeed a gift from God through faith (Ephesians 2:8-10).  The Greek verb “I give” is in the present tense, and as we saw above, the present tense in Greek emphasizes continuous action.  Thus, an amplified translation would be, “I continuously give eternal life.”  The other thing to note is that it is “eternal life,” not “temporary life” that could be abrogated by some cause or action.  That has always been of interest to me with regard to the belief of some that a true and born again believer can lose his or her salvation – if that is the case, then the gift of “eternal life” would be better stated as the gift of “temporary life,” based on how well one performs as a professed believer here on earth.

Now without question, there is the very real matter in the Bible of the warning concerning professed believers who completely turn from and deny Jesus, and we will deal with that issue in following studies, but I want to emphasize the term “professed believers,” versus true, born again believers that Jesus is apparently referring to in John 10:28.  And please understand, as was stated earlier, every true, born again believer sins and fails God in some way, but when they do, God’s loving “discipline” described in Hebrews 12:4-11 comes into play, with the purpose of causing true believers to “share His holiness” (Hebrews 12:10), and this whole process is what is referred to as sanctification, whereby the believer is constantly being conformed to the “image of Jesus” (Romans 8:28-30).  This being the case, as we now begin to look at the actual Greek syntax of John 10:28, we are going to discover some fascinating truths.

The first thing is the obvious Subjunctive of Emphatic Negation with the Aorist Subjunctive verb, οὐ μὴ ἀπόλωνται (ou mē apolōntai), which translated in an amplified manner reads, “they shall never/in no way cause themselves to perish/lose their salvation.”  However, how do we come up with the translation, “cause themselves to perish/lose their salvation”?  Besides tense and mood in Greek syntax, you also find what is called voice, which is very important in properly interpreting what is being said.  The three voices in Greek are:

  1. active (emphasizing the subject performing the action – “Bill hits the ball,” which is saying that Bill is actively hitting the ball);
  2. passive (emphasizing the subject being acted upon by an outside force – “Bill was hit by the ball,” which is indicating that someone or something caused the ball to hit Bill);
  3. middle (emphasizing one of three basic concepts:
    • reflexive focuses on the subject himself or herself being the recipient of his or her own action – “Bill hits himself” – which is simply stating that Bill is not only performing the action, but he is the recipient of his own action that he has caused;
    • intensive focuses on the subject alone producing the action – “Bill alone and no other hits the ball”;
    • reciprocal focuses on several subjects acting toward each other – “They are hitting each other”).

In this instance of ἀπόλωνται (apolōntai), therefore, what we have is an Aorist, Middle Subjunctive, Third Person Plural form from the root verb ἀπόλλυμι (apollumi), which means “to ruin, destroy, perish, and lose.”  Thus, in this instance with the Middle Voice, the context clearly points to the reflexive middle, whereby Jesus is stating that those to whom He gives “eternal life will never at any time cause themselves to perish/lose their salvation.”  With reference to the Aorist tense, once again it simply points out the reality of an event happening without any reference to time as such, apart from some time modifier, such as an adverb, adjective, etc.  In this verb, we have just such a modifier in the prepositional phrase, εἰς τὸν αἰῶνα (eis ton aiōna), which means, “throughout the eternity.”  With the Aorist, therefore, we have three basic aspects of its meaning and application:

  1. constative (this looks at the whole of an action, either in a second of time, or a century, or throughout eternity, such as Hebrews 11:9: “By faith he lived as an alien in the land of promise, as in a foreign land, dwelling in tents with Isaac and Jacob, fellow heirs of the same promise,” and here the “he lived” talking about the totality of Abraham’s life as a single event);
  2. ingressive (this focuses on the beginning of an action, such as Mark 11:12: “And on the next day, when they had departed from Bethany, He became hungry.” The phrase “He became hungry” is emphasizing the act of hunger beginning in Jesus);
  3. culminative (the emphasis here is on the culmination of action viewed as a whole, such as in Luke 1:3: “it seemed fitting for me as well, having investigated everything carefully from the beginning, to write it out for you in consecutive order, most excellent Theophilus,” where “it seemed fitting” is the culminating statement of Luke in describing the process he went through in coming to the decision to write a Gospel of Jesus’ life and ministry).

Therefore, in the context of John 10:28, it would clearly appear that ἀπόλωνται (apolōntai) is a constative aorist, emphasizing the totality of a believer’s life, from the moment of their rebirth and “throughout the eternity.”

Thus, in putting all of this together, we read the following in an amplified format of John 10:27-28: “My sheep continuously hear My voice, and I continuously know them, and they continuously follow Me, and I continuously give them eternal life, and they shall never/in no way cause themselves to perish/lose their salvation throughout the eternity, and no one will remove, steal, carry off, drag away, or snatch and take them away out of My hand.”  Consequently, it would appear that Jesus is clearly indicating here, in no uncertain terms, that a true, born again believer, cannot, in any way, cause themselves to lose their salvation, or if you will, “take themselves out of God’s hands.”  However, once again, I want to emphasize that this passage is in no way stating that we, as true, born again believers, cannot commit egregious sins and reap the consequences of those sins – sadly we both can and do.  But as has already been emphasized several times, Hebrews 12:4-12 is the means by which God deals with sin in the believer’s life.  From this point forward, therefore, we will begin to look at other important passages throughout the Bible, both in the Old and New Testaments, regarding the “eternal life” God gives His children, versus the false or superficial “religious life” of “professed believers” who have no real “root” of regenerating faith in their lives.

Comments

  2. Awesome study Justin….

    Perhaps the title of this thread should read….

    “The Doctrine of Eternal Life”!!

    Hopefully, we all know Eternal Life is a PERSON!!

    You either have HIM or you don’t.

    Blessed be HIS Holy Name!!

  3. Good Morning Justin,

    I enjoyed your commentary and Greek lesson today! I rejoiced in your simple, childlike, faith filled belief in the Lord Jesus and the Life He gives. And while this truth is not just limited to the one verse of the text, I want to particularly look at what you said in clear, simple, inspired logic, although it takes more than “logic” to believe this. It takes a revelation from God to the spirit of the one receiving salvation. Is that not true? You said:

    “The other thing to note is that it is “eternal life,” not “temporary life” that could be abrogated by some cause or action. That has always been of interest to me with regard to the belief of some that a true and born again believer can lose his or her salvation – if that is the case, then the gift of “eternal life” would be better stated as the gift of “temporary life,” based on how well one performs as a professed believer here on earth…”

    So clear. Eternal salvation not a temporary, give it and take it back! I had to chuckle at the simplicity of your statements! One poster wrote that she had a thought from her daughter: what part of the word “eternal” do they not understand?

    Continuing, you said:

    “Now without question, there is the very real matter in the Bible of the warning concerning professed believers who completely turn from and deny Jesus,…but I want to emphasize the term “professed believers,” versus true, born again believers that Jesus is apparently referring to in John 10:28.”

    Again, you point out the issue of true believers versus professing believers. I noted that you did not use the word Christian, since people who call themselves Christians can be both true believers and fake believers underneath that word. Your choice of word keeps the light focused on the issue of eternal life and not on religion.

    Jesus made it simpler when He declared: John 10:26 …but you do not believe because you are not part of my flock.

    You also said about the Greek meaning of John 10:28: “Thus, in this instance with the Middle Voice, the context clearly points to the reflexive middle, whereby Jesus is stating that those to whom He gives “eternal life will never at any time cause themselves to perish/lose their salvation.”

    This is important! Jesus says He gives eternal life (not security!), the one He gives life to will never perish, and “no one will snatch them out of my hand”. To create confusion, many theologians and “wannabe” theologians throughout the 1900 years of the Christian religion have taken this portion of the verse to mean that “no man, other than that man himself, can snatch them out of His hand”. As you point out, this is not what Jesus says or is meant according to the translation from the Greek.

    I say that doctrine is not only confusion but mental seduction because simple logic puts even that same person in the category of “no man”. The underlying Greek meaning, as you point out, says that Jesus is saying that whom He gives “eternal life will never at any time cause themselves to perish/lose their salvation.” And, this doctrine is not in the thoughts of God, there is no scriptural basis for that interpretation. Yes, one can take verses of scripture out of context and make it to mean that but God says….

    Only a lack of faith in Jesus would interpret His declaration as not being completely true. I believe the understated issue underlying eternal life as meaning “temporary life, if that person, not God, changes his mind”, is the issue of the sovereignty of God. Many who hold that a person can lose their salvation base their view on what is called the free will of mankind, stating that man, independently of God, has the ability, within himself to choose to accept the Sovereign God, despite God’s declarations to the contrary (Psalm 14:1-3 KJV, Romans 1:25 KJV, and much more). The question then becomes: if God is sovereign, as He has revealed to us that He is, then how does man choose to stop God’s plans without God sovereignly intervening, or slip through without his knowing, seeing as how He knows the end from the beginning? Is there anything He doesn’t see, direct, impact, create, destroy, etc.? I hope you will address this issue, if you haven’t already, in a future blog.

    Grace, Peace and Truth is in Jesus,

    Dee

    • Hello, i just simply wish to reply to Dee, it seems to me that you have already stretched the verse out of proportion as God was speaking about Him giving eternal life to a person. Your question seems to suggest that the verse states that God was talking about every single process of life. God have given us a free will and we use it however we see fit but the verse is very direct and carefully stated showing that whomever God gives eternal life to/ His grace that no one/entity can take that away from them not even themselves.
      Man cannot stop God’s plan, as God is the supreme Judge who sets the rules He cannot be judged. God says He does whatsoever pleases Him Psalms 115:3, just because you have the power to implement a system, if your son or daughter wants to do something contrary you can adjust your plans and at the same time allow your child to get what they want. In this analogy God would be you and men ( true believers, professed or non christian) would be your child

      • Hello Daniel,

        I am not sure what it is I wrote about the sovereignty of God that you have a problem with, if that is where the disagreement is. For the most part, I agree with you! My point was that in His sovereignty, it is Father God by the Lord Jesus, who gives eternal life–man does not choose it or earn it. Is this not true?

        John 10:26-28 bears that out, with Jesus saying that anyone who doesn’t have eternal life is not part of His flock, i.e., will perish. You say this also: “Man cannot stop God’s plan, as God is the supreme Judge who sets the rules He cannot be judged. God says He does whatsoever pleases Him.”

        But then, you flip flop and your analogy breaks down when you place the Almighty sovereign Jehovah God in the place of an ordinary man, making decisions as a man would. Even Jesus in His humanity did not do this! He only did what He heard and saw His Father doing. There is no comparison to God! He is the unique, sovereign creator of all things! Faith believes what God says about Himself. You said:

        “just because you have the power to implement a system, if your son or daughter wants to do something contrary you can adjust your plans and …allow your child to get what they want. In this analogy God would be you and men ( true believers, professed or non christian) would be your child.”

        This does not compute. God is not a man. Righteousness is of God. There is no unrighteousness with God. He makes no allowances for man’s “righteousness” or unrighteousness. Men can not get around God’s righteousness. This is why all of humanity is DESERVING of death, without exception. The only ones not deserving of death are God’s animal creatures, who are suffering under the depravity of humanity, waiting to be released.

        This is why God intervened and sent His wholly righteous Son Jesus to give us His righteousness for eternal life! Man cannot save himself or choose eternal life. (Psalm 14:1-3 KJV) Even regular natural life and breathing, is by God’s sovereign Grace, His choosing, His freely given gift to whosoever He chooses. You can not deserve Grace!

        Finally, you said: “Your question seems to suggest that the verse states that God was talking about every single process of life.”

        Daniel, He is talking about every single process of life. Eternal life, a new birth, is not just words, religion, or a 2-dimensional concept. The reality in Jesus covers everthing, both naturally and spiritually, here and in the hereafter. Being born again is the bases for everything a person does or becomes in the Lord in eternity. A true believer must learn to be led by the Spirit of Jesus and renew his mind in all things of God.

        Grace and Peace,

        Dee

    • Hi Dee,

      I think Romans 8:29 is key to understanding our role in salvation. “For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren.” There is always a big debate between God’s sovereignty and man’s free will. I think this verse shows that God is totally sovereign, and, in His sovereignty, has given man the free will to choose to believe the gospel or not. God foreknew who would use their free will to believe and who would not. Those He foreknew would choose Him, He predestinated to eternal life.

      By the way, I am not ignoring your reply to me on the other blog posting. I simply haven’t had a chance to respond.

      • Hey Eric,

        I agree with you. That is a key pivotal verse concerning God’s sovereignty, showing that His plan, purpose and goals are not being put together, willy nilly, as He goes along correcting mistakes, or that His plan to give eternal life to His chosen children is not an ad hoc plan for fixing Adam’s mistake. The doctrine of Free Will and its “believers” reject the truth of that verse. That doctrine is based on the assumption that God’s plan and operation is limited by how fallen humanity responds to Him in their choice. They believe that God is supposed to defer to His creations to get His Will done, and that He will not make unwilling people, save or unsaved, do His Will. (Can we say Pharaoh, Jonah, Saul, me?) That non-God glorifying, humanistic doctrine disregards what God says about man’s inherent, inability to respond in righteousness without His intervention (Psalm 14:1-3 KJV).

        Proponents of free will for salvation (or anything in life) point to the Old Testament behavior where, for example, Joshua says “choose you this day who you will serve, etc.”. But if making that choice could have given the nation of Israel the righteousness of God for eternal life, God would not have replaced the old covenant system of law and “choice”, with the new one of His grace with His righteousness and eternal life in Jesus. While that doctrine “says and teaches” Free Will and choice, the reality is that God does what ever He wants, without consultation unless He wants to, and saves whosoever He wills.

        Personally, I don’t think that most people in the Christian religion on the whole, really understand what the sovereignty of God means, seeing as how “self” is so actively promoted. It seems that this doctrine is taught as a theological concept in Christianity, but not transferred to reality. God said:

        Isa 45:18 For thus saith the LORD that created the heavens; God himself that formed the earth and made it; he hath established it, he created it not in vain, he formed it to be inhabited: I [am] the LORD; and [there is] none else.
        Isa 45:22 Look unto me, and be ye saved, all the ends of the earth: for I [am] God, and [there is] none else.
        Isa 46:9 Remember the former things of old: for I [am] God, and [there is] none else; [I am] God, and [there is] none like me,

        Wow! Does that make you tremble and want to give God mad respect, or not? And He didn’t say that just to Israel. He declared this to all His creation! In the KJV and several other translations, the word “awesome”, does not exist. It can be found in the NIV, of course. Christianity has been able to sell that word to the world, which makes God, His scripture and actions, or anyone and anything, seem like a cool buddy. Today, the world loves the word “awesome”; it is mainstream, not godly. That word is a substitute for the word “dreadful (fear, fearful, awe). God is Dreadful! (Dan 9:4 KJV) Now, there’s a word to make you sit up and take notice, looking around.

        I am so glad He intervened, sent Jesus, and by His Grace, chose His sons, made me His daughter and gave me eternity. I am so grateful to Him that I have true brethren sharing an inheritance. I’m so grateful to Him that He is not going to squash me like the depraved bug I was (He says worm, Job 25:6 KJV, Isa 41:14 KJV), and have me waiting in hell, bound for judgement and the Lake of fire. Eternal life with Jesus is infinitely better.

        With all the strange doctrines of faith and prosperity for wealth, healing and abundant life; Christian reconstructionism; kingdom building with christian replacement theology and other popular ear tickler doctrines, the omniscience of God is not in view. God is portrayed as a benevolent, androgynous, indecisive, wimpy, slot machine, where you decide what you want and put in some prayers. Or repeat bible verses, ad nauseum, and you’ll get what you want, if you work at it, and obey God’s commandments! And if you don’t get what you want, you’re told you don’t have enough faith, even though, if you are a true believer, you had the faith to receive eternal life! Then, Christians are told that the way to fix that lack of faith is to study, pray, fast and repent to get what you want or think you need.

        The Christian church is ineffective for preaching the good news unto salvation. The free will doctrine and the new covenant misinterpretation prevents the good news of Grace from going forward. Its systems think it can talk or intimidate a person into receiving the Life of God from Jesus based on those doctrines. Impossible! The knowledge of being born again must come by God’s revelation, and He decides, His Grace, who receives it! The numbers of people in the Christian religion that are not born from above, and who regularly “drop out” (and “stay in”) is astounding. (Ask Billy Graham for his statistics.) The level of apostasy in the religion, compromise with worldliness and compromise in the church systems attest to this. As apostasy increases, many wonder, not what Life in Jesus is, but what that whole Christian experience is all about, and whether they are considered backslider! The apostasy and heresy situation is not a surprise to God and is actually part of His plan.

        Thanks Eric. Your comments gave me an opportunity to share what I have been praying about on this issue of God’s sovereignty. I am trusting God to continue to teach us, His children, to walk in the truth of Life in Jesus, not religion; removing blinders and having the eyes of our understanding opened; being led and following the Spirit of Jesus; teaching us to walk in God’s love as revealed in the scriptures, and not according to the reinterpreted love defined by the world.

        Jesus enjoyed His Life with His Father and His family and friends, and even though He was under tremendous pressure, He had Peace as He did His Father’s will. He wants the same for us.

        I wonder why my posts are so long. I have so much to say here. I always pray that they edify the believers.

        Grace and Peace,

        Dee

          • Hello Zachary,

            Thanks for the exhortation to acknowledge. God’s sovereign exercise of His Grace in the face of man’s depravity. I am grateful to Him for His Grace.

            Psa 103:14 KJV: For he knows our frame; [fn] he remembers that we are dust.

            His,

            Dee

        • To walk in love, is to not compromise Biblical morality…not call sin…

          …”the right to choose” (aka murder).

          …”an alternate lifestyle” (aka abomination).

          …”atheistic evolution” (aka unbelief).

          The world tries to redefine sin by calling it something other than it is, and then attempts to attack Christians for not going along with their imposing “political correctness” that dictates the terms, thereby forcing a Christian to surrender his will unto the will of liberal progressivism in a 21st century where God has been replaced with madness from the mind of man, that justifies sinning and condemns the righteous. The Bible doesn’t justify sinning, it calls sin what it is.

      • Eric~

        I would appreciate it if you also responded to my post when you have the time. Thank you!

        Barbara

  4. We need a program here. You can’t tell who the players are without a program.

    Using Jhn 10 KJV,
    The “sheep” as written, are the Jews.

    The “Jews” as written are the “hirelings”, or the Daddy God appointed Priesthood (GODS authority on earth) of Israel who were caring only for themselves and not caring for the “sheep” (Jews).

    The “other sheep” are the nations (goyim).

    Now read Jhn 10 HNV. Yehudim, is similar to the American word Yankee. Depending on who and where it is being said from or by defines it meaning.

    Jhn 10:28, Here Yeshua is emphatically 😉 conversing with the “hirelings” (KJV) who are described as thieves entering thru another GATE in the parable. That is why they were upset and wanted to stone HIM. Yeshua is talking about Israel here! With that being the case, a whole other perspective appears. This other perspective does not remove anything we the “other sheep” have, but it does bring things into focus when the message is interpreted in context as a whole using the idioms of the times, the backdrop of where things were being said and the actual people who were conversing.

    J.

    • Jerry~

      As I understand what you have written, you are saying that the Jews wanted to stone Jesus because He had called them “thieves entering thru another GATE in the parable.” Doesn’t verse 33b tell us that that the reason was “because that thou, being a man, makest thyself God”?

      Also, what do you mean that it “does not remove anything we the ‘other sheep’ have”?

      Thanks~
      Barbara

      • Barb, you’ll find the answers to your questions in my comment and scripture references.

        • Jerry~

          I looked up your scripture references. That’s why I know that they don’t agree with what you said, and that’s why I responded to your post. Are you able to explain why your opinion about why they were going to stone Jesus contradicts verse 33?

          As you the other comment I had, what you wrote was vague, so I was merely asking for clarification. Referring me back to your vague comment is really of no help. Perhaps you could explain what you meant. Thank you.

          Barbara

          • Jerry~

            There have been several times in which I have asked you to explain your comments, but you never have. Why is that? Don’t you think you have a responsibility to back up what you say with Scripture and a logical explanation?

            Barbara

          • Jerry~

            When I don’t understand what the Lord is saying in His Word, I “Take it up with HIM,” but when I don’t understand what someone else has said, especially when it pertains to His Word, then I take it up with that person. Obviously, if a person makes a claim regarding the truth of God’s Word, the burden of proof lies squarely with him or her. What possible reason could one believer have to refuse to defend a statement about the Word of God when another believer asks? I can think of only one.

            Barbara

  5. This has been a very interesting discussion. I think that to have a fruitful debate on this topic there needs to be agreement by both sides of the argument about the definition of ‘a true believer’.(Pauline S. has also commented along these lines on the Sept.26 post.)A ‘true believer’ who falls away would seem to be a contradiction in terms.

    We know that all the relevant scriptures need to be reconciled and harmonised to produce sound doctrine. Maybe only the Holy Spirit does this for us over time. In the meantime we need to be ‘diligent to make our election and calling sure'(2Peter 1:10) And “when the trumpet of the Lord shall sound and time shall be no more, and the morning breaks eternal bright and fair, and the saved of earth shall gather over on the other shore, and the roll is called up yonder”, we may be gratefully surprised at who-all is there!

    God bless you all!
    Helen

  6. The doctrine of eternal security is a lie. “For if we sin wilfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins, But a certain fearful looking for of judgement and fiery indignation, which shall devour the adversaries.” Hebrews 10:26;27. This of course doesn’t mean slipping up by accident and sinning. It is knowing full well that it is wrong to do something, and doing it anyways. People who honestly read there Bible won’t get fooled by this doctrine.
    Amos

    • Amos~

      You are right. There are many, many verses and passages that, when examined alongside what is being offered here, illustrate that a true believer can, either through apathy or rebellion, lose his or her salvation. When all verses are reconciled, it becomes apparent that while God is always faithful, mankind is not. We are not robots, programmed for a certain course of action. We have free will, and the same free will we used to choose Jesus to author our faith, we use to choose to have him be the finisher of our faith. Yes, we are disciplined as sons. Praise God for that, but nowhere does it say that everyone who is given discipline receives it with a right heart.

      One of the greatest examples given that God’s covenant people can, indeed, lose their salvation is of the Israelites in the OT. Except for Caleb and Joshua, NOT ONE of the millions of God’s Covenant people who had experienced a physical deliverance (salvation) from Egypt entered the Promised Land. They were prohibited from entering because of unbelief. In other words, they did not continue in their faith. This is exactly the purpose of the warning given in Hebrews 3:7-19, which says that believers today can experience the same end of not entering God’s rest (i.e. heaven) if our hearts our hardened through unbelief.

      Part of this discussion centers around how God’s sovereignty works in conjunction with mankind’s free will. While it is true that God is sovereign, when it comes to salvation, God has allowed His creation total freedom. That’s what gives His plan integrity, that people follow Him daily out of choice, not because they made an initial commitment to Him or because they were predestined to. We need only look to the book of Genesis to see the freedom that God has given us. If there ever was a time for God to pull the “sovereignty card” with regard to man’s salvation, that would have been the time, and yet, we see that God didn’t interfere but allowed his creation total freedom to choose even when it resulted in the entire universe being subjected to sin and death.

      I pray that God’s people will honestly examine the whole council of God when formulating doctrine.

      Yours in Christ~
      Barbara

  7. John 3:36

    Romans 6:1-16

    1 Corinthians 4:1-2

    2 Corinthians 5:5-10

    Hebrews 10:26-38

    1 Peter 1:13-19

    2 John 1:8

    Jude 1:17-21

    Revelation 3:15-21

    “Seest thou how faith wrought with his works, and by works was faith made perfect?” -James 2-22

  8. Justin at BLB~

    I have some comments on the doctrine of “eternal security” that I would very much like your opinion on. I had posted something last Wednesday, but I don’t know if you read it or not. Rather than repost it here, I will just refer to you last week’s post. Thank you.

    Yours in Christ~
    Barbara

  9. I respectfully disagree with this part of the article:

    “Obviously, the “hand” of Jesus in verse 28, and the “hand” of the Father in verse 29 are one and the same, as Jesus says He “and the Father are one” in verse 30.”

    I believe Christ was speaking in the sense of oneness as described in John 17:22:

    (John 17:22) And the glory which thou gavest me I have given them; that they may be one, even as we are one:

    While Jesus walked on this earth as our sinless substitute and ultimate example setter, He referred to Himself as the “Son of Man” (KJV) for a reason.

    The Bible says:

    (John 6:37-40) All that the Father giveth me shall come to me; and him that cometh to me I will in no wise cast out. For I came down from heaven, not to do mine own will, but the will of him that sent me. And this is the Father’s will which hath sent me, that of all which he hath given me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up again at the last day. And this is the will of him that sent me, that every one which seeth the Son, and believeth on him, may have everlasting life: and I will raise him up at the last day.

    (John 5:24) Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life.

    (John 12:44, 45) Jesus cried and said, He that believeth on me, believeth not on me, but on him that sent me. And he that seeth me seeth him that sent me.

    (John 14:9, 10) Jesus saith unto him, Have I been so long time with you, and yet hast thou not known me, Philip? he that hath seen me hath seen the Father; and how sayest thou [then], Shew us the Father? Believest thou not that I am in the Father, and the Father in me? the words that I speak unto you I speak not of myself: but the Father that dwelleth in me, he doeth the works.

    (John 12:49) He that rejecteth me, and receiveth not my words, hath one that judgeth him: the word that I have spoken, the same shall judge him in the last day. For I have not spoken of myself; but the Father which sent me, he gave me a commandment, what I should say, and what I should speak.

    (john 8:28) Then said Jesus unto them, When ye have lifted up the Son of man, then shall ye know that I am [he], and [that] I do nothing of myself; but as my Father hath taught me, I speak these things.

    (John 5:30-32) I can of mine own self do nothing: as I hear, I judge: and my judgment is just; because I seek not mine own will, but the will of the Father which hath sent me. If I bear witness of myself, my witness is not true. There is another that beareth witness of me; and I know that the witness which he witnesseth of me is true.

    (John 5:19, 20) Then answered Jesus and said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, The Son can do nothing of himself, but what he seeth the Father do: for what things soever he doeth, these also doeth the Son likewise. For the Father loveth the Son, and sheweth him all things that himself doeth: and he will shew him greater works than these, that ye may marvel.

    (Luke 10:22) All things are delivered to me of my Father: and no man knoweth who the Son is, but the Father; and who the Father is, but the Son, and [he] to whom the Son will reveal [him].

    (John 7:16-18) Jesus answered them, and said, My doctrine is not mine, but his that sent me. If any man will do his will, he shall know of the doctrine, whether it be of God, or [whether] I speak of myself. He that speaketh of himself seeketh his own glory: but he that seeketh his glory that sent him, the same is true, and no unrighteousness is in him.

    (John 7:28) Then cried Jesus in the temple as he taught, saying, Ye both know me, and ye know whence I am: and I am not come of myself, but he that sent me is true, whom ye know not.

    (John 8:42) Jesus said unto them, If God were your Father, ye would love me: for I proceeded forth and came from God; neither came I of myself, but he sent me.

    I believe these compared verses show how Christ, while being fully God, had to operate under a certain protocol and could do nothing of Himself (of His Person), but rather, did the will of the Father perfectly…was “one” with Him by way of doing the Father’s will perfectly, just as a sinless man would, if such a man existed outside of the God-Man, the Lord Jesus Christ. In His human nature, the Son relied on the Father completely, and could do nothing of Himself (of His Person). Christ did not know the day and hour or His return, in that sense. The Bible also indicates that Christ “…increased in wisdom…” (Luke 2:52 KJV). Until Christ was risen and glorified, i believe He did not know the day and hour of His return, in His human nature that’s part of His Person. He had to operate under a certain protocol, and during that time, in His human nature, He relied solely on the Father for the knowledge and the words to say. I believe that Christ, in His human nature, could not draw upon His own infinite knowledge (of His Person) and that’s how He could not know of that day and hour while still being God at the same time. He had to follow protocol:

    (Philippians 2:7-9) But made himself of no reputation, and took upon him the form of a servant, and was made in the likeness of men: And being found in fashion as a man, he humbled himself, and became obedient unto death, even the death of the cross. Wherefore God also hath highly exalted him, and given him a name which is above every name:

    So, when Christ spoke of His “hand” and the Father’s “hand” (KJV), i believe He was speaking of both proverbial hands being “one” in the sense of the Son following the Father’s will perfectly.

  10. ~Dee B,
    I just want to run over and hug you and your sweet soul. What a joy you must be to those around you!

    I was raised in a VERY “once saved always in doubt” environment. Always sure that I was in no way good enough and would never make it to heaven because I could not be perfect. I think God blessed me with brokenness. He had me right where he wanted me. The weight of sin was beyond what I could correct. I knew Jesus died for sinners I just didn’t think I even rated that high up on the scale. I thought He died for the deserving sinner. (LOL! What an oxy-morone I was!) The one who by will power could whip themselves into obedience in every way and I knew the impossibility of the task so I felt lost. Then God showed me His Son, the awful cost He paid and I don’t know, I suddenly realized my utter arrogance in the situation. How deceptive satan can be when he whispers…you aren’t good enough! How could I be so vain to think Jesus could save others but somehow wasn’t enough to save me? Something about the works trip had created a human dilemma I couldn’t overcome and I’d allowed it to keep me from truly knowing the indescribable HIS LOVE and then coming into right relationship with Him MY SAVIOR!!! How could I be so arrogant to think I was somehow beyond His reach? As soon as I recognized my arrogance and turned from it LOVE overflowed and every fiber of my being wanted only His will in my life. I stopped trying to earn my way to heaven. I stopped praying for things and started praying for His will in my life. I had tried to put the horse before the cart.

    I find Love overflowing in every word of the bible. I used to fear sin because of the consequence of sin. Now when I sin it breaks my heart because I’ve let Jesus down. Now I trust Him to sanctify me and I delight in obeying Him. Now I can’t wait each day to see what God through His word blesses me with.

    I think maybe the church has lost this simple truth in some sort of theological quagmire! If you trust and love God how can you not trust Him enough to simple learn instead of debate scriptuer? I’m a library clerk and I see folks every day searching. There are more books of “higher” learning than there are shells on the sea shore. It all proves we don’t trust God enough to simply read His word and trust Him to lead us. I’m not disspairaging those efforts I just wonder why we don’t trust God enough to lean on His word and HIS word. There will always be someone to say…yeah but! We will always find deeper and deeper meaning. Trust God and He will always give you the very thing you need at the very moment you need it.

    I will say this one harsh thing. Jesus got really ticked off at the hair splitter’s in the crowd but He never once said know it all and then you’re saved. As true followers of Christ we can really hurt the cause of Christ when we don’t realize we can send folks screaming in the other direction if we don’t simply let the bible loose. It can take care of itself and you much better than you can take care of it.

    I know great theological points are being expressed here but maybe a simple witness helps. 🙂

    • Tess~

      I hope you don’t mind if I respond to what you have written to someone else. It is a praise to God that He has opened your heart to His truth because living as though you are “once saved always in doubt” is not to walk in the assurance, love, and peace for which Christ died. After being saved, we can absolutely know that we are saved because Romans 8:16 says, “The Spirit itself beareth witness with our spirit, that we are the children of God.” However, this doesn’t mean, as Dee believes, that believers cannot lose their salvation. We don’t lose our free will after we are saved; the same free will we used to have Jesus author our faith is the same free will we use to have Him be the finisher of it, which Dee also rejects. I actually posted some comments to someone else on the 11th about this very thing, so I thought I would just copy it here for you:

      I’m not sure how long you’ve been on this blog or whether you’ve read my comments on eternal security, but it was my very ignorance on the topic that led me to really study the Bible along with prayer, fasting, and repentance in order to find out what God’s Word really said on the topic. God has no desire to leave us in the dark, and He has given us His Word so that we don’t have to. It stands to reason that if we are to know what it says, that we can find out what it says. My main study lasted for about a year although I am still finding examples that very much support the idea that a true, born-again believer can lose his or her salvation. Having said that, however, I would never suggest that you or anyone just take my word for it. It is up to each person to search and reconcile God’s entire counsel (II Tim. 3:16), to study it (II Tim. 2:15), and to be led into all truth by the Holy Spirit (Jn. 16:13). Only then can the truth be owned by the believer. While I believe that people, either through apathy, rebellion, or committing blasphemy against the Holy Spirit, can reject their salvation, I do agree with you that it “is not fragile; it’s not something you can just lose.”

      I do have some comments that I have posted for consideration as you begin your study. On the September 19 blog, I posted my comments on how I had I reconciled Scripture and some other thoughts. They can be found on the introductory page (This blog page was split) by doing a word search for “It is true.” In addition, on the main page of the September 19 blog, I have given four examples to study that support that believers can lose their salvation. You can find them in a post I wrote to Dee by doing a word search for “I had written.”

      Tess, many of your comments suggest that you agree with Dee that true believers cannot lose their salvation. May I suggest that you, as you wrote, “simply let the bible loose”? The Scriptures that I provided are only a handful of what I found. After you study them, I’d like you to answer the same question that I have asked her and others. If these verses and examples are not speaking of losing one’s salvation, then what spiritual truth are they putting forth?

      I pray that our Lord will open our hearts and eyes as we seek the truth of His Word.

      God bless you~
      Barbara

      • Thank you Barbara for your reply to my comment to Dee but sweet sister in Christ I must tell you that I have been where you are and have already studied this subject and by God’s glory and WHOLE counsel I had found wisdom in letting scripture interpret scripture and allowing God not man/woman to lead me in paths of righteousness for “HIS” names sake. God is not about our religion. Our religion should be about God. Our faith is faith in Him not in any “you have to agree with me” theology. I believe His word points that out very clearly and I do not believe truly repentant, seeking, God fearing people can or will get lost. They can however get discouraged, confused, disheartened and bewildered at man’s attempts to say “lemme tell ya what the bible really says” and then follow them rather than God’s word. God will and does reveal to us what we need to know when we need it and satan ALWAYS attempts to say “is that really what God said?” God is not a Baptist, Methodist, Jew, Greek, Gentile or our validator. We are His. His people, His sheep, His bride and His headache. If we loose sight of that simple truth we become agents for the bad guy! Accepting Christ is not the finish line it’s that starting gun and He will reveal Himself and all His glory to us through HIS word not yours mine or Dee’s interpretation of His word.

        Please forgive me for speaking so bluntly but I NEVER make it my mission to convince anyone they are lost unless they believe as I do. I encourage and learn. I hug and repent. I study and believe HIM! Not any of us. Please, please don’t take that as anything but what it is. I bless and thank God for all of you and love ALL my brothers and sisters.

        • Tess~

          Thank you for responding to my post. I wasn’t even sure that you would have come back and read it. Because you have written that you have been where I am and that you have studied this subject with the whole counsel of God, would you please take the four examples that I gave Dee and tell me, exactly, why I am wrong? As I wrote, if they are not speaking of losing one’s salvation, then what spiritual truths are they putting forth? Thank you, and I will await your answer.

          Yours in Christ~
          Barbara

          • Barbara,
            No Sis, I will not now or ever attempt to use scripture to prove damnation. Sorry I’ll leave that one to you.

          • Tess~

            I didn’t ask you to “use scripture to prove damnation.” I asked you to tell me what spiritual truths we are to glean from the four examples I gave. We are to reconcile all relevant Scripture when formulating doctrine (II Tim. 3:16), are we not? When you said you had been where I am and have studied this subject with the whole counsel of God, the rightful assumption is that you can shed light on my apparent darkness. It must really be because you are unable to because I certainly cannot understand why a believer would ever refuse to share the truth of God’s Word with another believer, especially when asked.

            Barbara

  11. Weep, weep for those
    Who do the work of the Lord
    with a high look
    And a proud heart.
    Their voice is lifted up
    In the streets, and their cry is heard.
    The bruised reed they break
    By their great strength, and the smoking flax
    They trample.
    Weep not for the quenched
    (For their God will hear their cry
    And the Lord will come to save them)
    But weep, weep for the quenchers
    For when the Day of the Lord
    Is come, and the vales sing
    And the hills clap their hands
    And the light shines
    Then their eyes shall be opened
    On a waste place,
    Smouldering,
    The smoke of the flax bitter
    In their nostrils,
    Their feet pierced
    By broken reed-stems…
    Wood, hay, and stubble,
    And no grass springing,
    And all the birds flown.
    Weep, weep for those
    Who have made a desert
    In the name of the Lord.
    -Evangeline Patterson