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John 10 and the Doctrine of Eternal Security (Part 2)

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One of the most controversial questions among Christians is whether or not a true believer —one who has been regenerated by the Holy Spirit—can lose his or her salvation.

There are entire denominations on which the essence of their core soteriology is based on their belief of whether or not a true believer can apostatize and lose their salvation.  There are those who would agree with Jesus’ statement that “no one is able to snatch” a true believer “out of the Father’s hand.” They will be quick to say that a true believer can remove themselves “out of the Father’s hand,” and for those who embrace the theological belief that a true believer can lose his or her salvation, this appears to be a reasonable statement.

However, as we look at John 10:28, we will discover some very striking language that unmistakably refutes the belief and theological emphasis that a true believer can remove himself or herself “out of the Father’s hand.”  Now let me say up front, this is in no way implying that a true believer cannot commit egregious sin and experience its painful consequences – that has happened, and it will continue to happen until Jesus returns.  On the other hand, Hebrews 12:4-11 addresses the reality of sin and failure in a true believer’s life and just how God deals with it:

You have not yet resisted to the point of shedding blood in your striving against sin; 5 and you have forgotten the exhortation which is addressed to you as sons, “My son, do not regard lightly the discipline of the Lord, Nor faint when you are reproved by Him; 6 For those whom the Lord loves He disciplines, And He scourges every son whom He receives.” 7 It is for discipline that you endure; God deals with you as with sons; for what son is there whom his father does not discipline? 8 But if you are without discipline, of which all have become partakers, then you are illegitimate children and not sons. 9 Furthermore, we had earthly fathers to discipline us, and we respected them; shall we not much rather be subject to the Father of spirits, and live? 10 For they disciplined us for a short time as seemed best to them, but He disciplines us for our good, that we may share His holiness. 11 All discipline for the moment seems not to be joyful, but sorrowful; yet to those who have been trained by it, afterwards it yields the peaceful fruit of righteousness. (Hebrews 12:4-11)

We will get into this verse in greater detail in subsequent studies, but for the present, let it be understood that for a true believer, God in no way “winks” at sin in our lives, nor does He “condone” it, but rather “He disciplines us for our good, that we may share His holiness.”  For someone to say that he or she “continuously has fellowship and a living and vital relationship with God,” they should not be living and going around in the overt, unabashed darkness of sin, calling good evil, and evil good, without any conviction from the Holy Spirit of their sin. Such a person is continuously lying to himself or herself, as well as others, and they are continuously NOT PRACTICING, CARRYING OUT, ACCOMPLISHING, OR EMBRACING THE TRUTH” (I John 1:6 – My Amplified Translation).

The important truth in this verse is that the sin described here is that of a complete blindness and rebellion in one’s own heart of any true relationship with God at all, and thus, no consciousness of, or turning from sin whatsoever.  On the other hand, EVERY TRUE BELIEVER will at some point in his or her life succumb to some besetting sin over a long or short period of time, and this sin will be different for all of us.

For some, it may be a particular addiction of some type, including gluttony and its destructive consequences for oneself, as well as others.   For others it may be an attitude of anger and bitterness, leading to all types of self-destructive and harmful actions and consequences.  For others it may be various forms of compromise, which may indeed be brought on by unforgiveness, self-pity, jealousy, and resentment.  For others, however, it may indeed be one of the most insidious and self-destructive sins of all, BLIND SELF-RIGHTEOUSNESS, which can open us up to a hypocritical lifestyle they we are initially oblivious to, but will eventually lead us into compromising sin of the very things we so vociferously criticized others for.

In all of these areas, therefore, for the person who is truly a child of God, God will unequivocally set in motion Hebrews 12:4-11 in order that His child will “share His holiness.”  And once again, we will deal with the whole aspect of sanctification in our salvation in subsequent studies, but now, we are going to look at John 10:28 and just what it has to say as to whether or not a true believer can take himself or herself  “out of the Father’s hand.”

Comments

  1. I firmly believe the truth that one will commit sin as long as they are in the corruptible body. Yet, We have justification by faith in His blood. But as we all have access to saving Grace by faith, we all have the ‘free will” to reject God. Why or what would cause that decision is not within my understanding. Yet to take on yourself to “know” that one who rejects that salvation or assume they were never “really saved” is presuming quite a lot by anyone. To look into anothers heart is most “Godlike” and extremely judgemental ,

    • What causes the decision to reject God after you are saved is the sin nature still within you. Romans 7 makes this clear. But, you are right that you cannot lose your salvation, because: Ephesians 1:7 “In whom we have redemption through his blood, the forgiveness of sins, according to the riches of his grace;” Our salvation entirely rests on God’s grace; not on our works, good or bad they may be.

      • Can a saved believer harden his heart? And if so, can he harden it to the point that he eventually rejects Christ and His shed blood (hardened unbelief; willful sin as spoken of in Hebrews 10:26)? What if grace is conditioned upon faith (our believing in Christ)? Is grace lost if someone continues to fulfill the lusts of the flesh and does not abide in Christ, to the point of hardened unbelief? Consider this verse:

        (John 15:6) If a man abide not in me, he is cast forth as a branch, and is withered; and men gather them, and cast [them] into the fire, and they are burned.

        Again, we see a conditional verse. To be cast forth as a branch, indicates that a believer does abide in Christ before he no longer does and is cast forth as a branch. How can someone be “withered” if he never was connected to the vine and never had the water of life in him? Was never the good ground that brought forth fruit?

        Also notice in John 15:6, that it seems that men gather a man after he is first cast forth as a branch and is withered. Not sure if the men are false prophets, or saints who gather the tares and wheat at Christ’s coming? If false prophets, then those men do not snatch a believer out of the Father’s hand. To be in His hand is to not be withered, right?

        (Matthew 13:30) Let both grow together until the harvest: and in the time of harvest I will say to the reapers, Gather ye together first the tares, and bind them in bundles to burn them: but gather the wheat into my barn.

        These are questions i have about this, that this blog series has not answered as yet.

        • The Bible seems to indicate that a believer’s heart can eventually harden unto a state of unbelief. The question is, what sort of believing is in view? A belief of the heart related to salvation, or a superficial belief? I think every pastor will tell you that if someone no longer believes in Christ, that such a person is not saved. This is very much like the centuries long Calvinism and Arminianism debate. Is hardened unbelief a loss of salvation or loss of possibility of salvation?

          I think another important thing to point out, is that a heart that is totally hardened, is very much against God to the point of sinning willfully. This seems to be the sort of sin that is from the most evil heart that is hardened so much, that it’s depravity goes beyond man’s natural, unregenerate depraved state. How many have hardened their hearts to that point? I’d imagine that this is a state of being that isn’t common at all. Or i’d like to believe that, at least. This brings up the question of what is total depravity according to Calvinistic theology? And is there a depravity that’s worse?

          • Hi Sean,

            God says this is “total depravity”, as written below. The Christian religion doesn’t like this because they want a little “free will”. But, humanity can’t get any deserving of death than this.

            Psa 14:1 [[To the chief Musician, [A Psalm] of David.]] The fool hath said in his heart, [There is] no God. They are corrupt, they have done abominable works, [there is] none that doeth good.
            Psa 14:2 The LORD looked down from heaven upon the children of men, to see if there were any that did understand, [and] seek God.
            Psa 14:3 They are all gone aside, they are [all] together become filthy: [there is] none that doeth good, no, not one.

            No one can truly choose God from the heart even for a little time, because the heart is dead and very wicked. Paul repeats this in Romans. You know the verses and what Jesus says about the wicked heart of humanity. If God doesn’t come in and do it, no one gets eternal life. Thank God for His grace. When He does it and gives a new heart, you don’t loose it. (The new covenant: Eze 36:26-27)

            Grace, Peace, Truth and Eternal Life are in Jesus the Messiah.

            Dee

        • John 15 refers to apostate Israel and how they used to be part of the olive tree that is Jesus Christ (referred to as the true vine in John 15). Apostate Israel is replaced with the believing remnant in Israel. See Matthew 21:43, Luke 12:32, and the discussion of the olive tree in Romans 11:16-26.

          • Eric~

            How did you arrive at the conclusion that John 15 is referring to “apostate Israel” and not to God’s people of the new covenant?

            Thanks~
            Barbara

          • Hi Barbara,

            Putting together Matthew 21:43, Luke 12:32, and Romans 11:16-26 is how I arrived at the conclusion that the branches cast out and burned in John 15 are apostate Israel.

            As far as the new covenant is concerned, we are not under that today. That’s Israel’s promise, not for us today. We were never under an old covenant to be under a new covenant. If you want proof, look at Ezekiel 36:26-27 “A new heart also will I give you, and a new spirit will I put within you: and I will take away the stony heart out of your flesh, and I will give you an heart of flesh. And I will put my spirit within you, and cause you to walk in my statutes, and ye shall keep my judgments, and do [them].” If you were under this new covenant, you would live a perfect life, because the Holy Spirit would CAUSE YOU to walk in God’s law. That is why I John 3:9 says that those under the new covenant CANNOT SIN. “Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God.” Sin is an impossibility if you are under teh new covenant. Therefore, we are not under the new covenant today. That is for Israel in Jesus’ reign on earth, which is after His second coming.

          • Hi Eric,

            I have some simple questions for you concerning the New Covenant and what you wrote:

            “As far as the new covenant is concerned, we are not under that today. That’s Israel’s promise, not for us today. We were never under an old covenant to be under a new covenant.”

            First, I also agree with you that the scriptures reveal that saints in Messiah were never under the old covenant. That’s because the old covenant was done away with in Jesus, as the writer of Hebrews explains:

            Hbr 9:15 And for this cause he is the mediator of the new testament, that by means of death, for the redemption of the transgressions [that were] under the first testament, they which are called might receive the promise of eternal inheritance.
            Hbr 10:20 By a new and living way, which he hath consecrated for us, through the veil, that is to say, his flesh;…
            Hbr 12:24 And to Jesus the mediator of the new covenant, and to the blood of sprinkling, that speaketh better things than [that of] Abel.

            But your declaration that, “As far as the new covenant is concerned, we are not under that today. That’s Israel’s promise, not for us today….”. This is not the truth revealed in the scriptures. (See Hebrews 12:24 up top) If believers in Messiah are not under the new covenant, and definitely not under the old, then where are we in God’s heart?

            What is the new covenant based on? Israel as a NATION is still looking for the new covenant fulfillment, but individual Jews and gentiles (not nations of gentiles) can and have come to Jesus,(yesterday and a continual today if we harden not our hearts), until He returns to the Mount. The gentiles have been grafted into the New covenant, as part of Father God’s promise to the Hebrew fathers. The new covenant makes peace between Jews and gentiles. The Holy Spirit through Paul says that Jesus:

            Eph 2:15 Having abolished in his flesh the enmity, [even] the law of commandments [contained] in ordinances; for to make in himself of twain one new man, [so] making peace;

            2Cr 3:6 Who also hath made us able ministers of the new testament; not of the letter, but of the spirit: for the letter killeth, but the spirit giveth life.

            As you show in the scriptures from Ezekiel, God wanted a new covenant for the nation of Israel to keep the promises He made to the fathers, which included the nation of Israel bringing a blessing to the whole world:

            Rom 15:8 Now I say that Jesus Christ was a minister of the circumcision for the truth of God, to confirm the promises [made] unto the fathers:…

            Also, as interpreted for us by the writer of Hebrews, (and there are so many, many more thoughts of God):

            Hbr 8:8 For finding fault with them, he saith, Behold, the days come, saith the Lord, when I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah:
            Hbr 8:13 In that he saith, A new [covenant], he hath made the first old. Now that which decayeth and waxeth old [is] ready to vanish away.

            So, all individuals who are in Jesus the Messiah are under God’s new covenant ratified by the blood of His Beloved Son. The whole nation of Israel will come to the salvation through a remnant, representative of the whole nation, once the times of the Gentiles are completed. God is not giving salvation to whole nations, Jew or gentile, yet! Remember, the prophets did not receive a revelation of the body of the Messiah and His salvation to it. (1 Peter 1:9-12 KJV)

            Is this not in the scriptures? Have I misunderstood what the Holy Spirit is saying?

            Finally, you say: “If you were under this new covenant, you would live a perfect life, because the Holy Spirit would CAUSE YOU to walk in God’s law. That is why I John 3:9 says that those under the new covenant CANNOT SIN… because he is born of God.” Sin is an impossibility if you are under teh new covenant. Therefore, we are not under the new covenant today.”

            Eric, your view is not scriptural here either. True believers ARE born from above, born of God. The righteousness we have in our spirit is perfectly sinless because it is Jesus’ righteousness that we live by faith, not our own. Otherwise, there would be no eternal Life. We would all be dead in our trespasses and sins, deserving death. But, the grace of God…

            Again, believers tend to flip and slide by not seeing that the place of the new birth is the spirit of man. This is where a new believer cannot sin, because all things are of God and there is an incorruptible see! (2 Corinthians 5:17-18 KJV) We must rightly divide the word concerning the spirit, and the soul and body. This is where the sword of the Spirit, the Holy Spirit, makes a division. We must discern the things that differ. We need Him to do this in us, or we, of all people, are most miserable.

            Grace, Life and Peace are in Ha Mashiyach!

            Dee

          • Eric~

            To begin, the three scriptures you use don’t support your premise because the new covenant, as explained throughout the NT, is for all believers, Jew and Gentile (Gal. 3:28-29, Col. 3:11).

            Your comment that “we are not under that [the new covenant] today,” is illogical based upon your evidence is that “We were never under an old covenant to be under a new covenant.” It’s not that we ‘personally’ weren’t under the old covenant but that God’s people, who were once under the old covenant, will come under the new, if they choose to, of course. The Ezekiel verses are only a prophesy of the new covenant that would come to God’s people, who just happened to be only the Jews at that time, so that’s who’s being addressed, but these verses cannot be used to deny the Gentiles place within God’s covenant plan because verses such as Isaiah 42:6-9 and 49:6 as well as Luke 2:29-32 and Acts 15:13-18 very much prove that the new covenant is for both Jew and Gentile as does John 3:16. As we know, the greater part of the physical house of Israel rejected Christ, so Christ took a remnant from it to go into the world to the Gentiles, and together, they make up spiritual Israel, worshipping God “in spirit and in truth” (Jn. 4:24) by the power of the indwelling Holy Spirit, who was not available in that capacity the old covenant.

            You have not only incorrectly concluded that believers are not “under this new covenant,” you have, again, not righty divided the Word (II Tim. 2:15) by saying that those people “under the new covenant CANNOT SIN,” citing I John 3:9. In order to find the truth of God’s Word, we are told that we are to look at ALL Scripture (II Tim. 3:16). Isolating this verse in I John from the whole of God’s Word will result in an incorrect understanding of it. In the first place, the word “cause” cannot mean that believers will absolutely follow God’s laws because that would mean that God forces people to follow Him, that they have no free will, which is not biblical. Rather, the word can be viewed as enabling the believer to follow Him, further explained in Romans 8:3-4. Secondly, we know that God’s covenant people can sin from I John 2:1, which says, “My little children, these things write I unto you, that ye sin not. And if any man sin, we have an advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous.” The meaning behind the I John verse is that, once someone is born from above, he or she is no longer governed by sin because we are new creatures in Christ Jesus (II Cor. 5:17). We have the mind of Christ (I Cor. 2:16), understand spiritual things (I Cor. 2:14), establish the law (Rom. 3:31), and do the works of God (Eph. 2:10).

            There are just a couple of other things to consider in light of your statements. By biblical definition, only people who are in a covenant with God can be considered God’s people, so your own reasoning excludes you from being a child of God unless you are descended from the physical house of Israel. Are you? In addition, the NT is the manual of all things (instructions, doctrines, warnings, promises, fulfillment of prophesy) that are contained in the new covenant for God’s people. If “we are not under the new covenant today,” and if the new covenant “is for Israel in Jesus’ reign on earth, which is after His second coming,” then why has Christ’s church, which includes Gentiles, been blinded to this fact for almost 2,000 years? Why, as a Christian, which is what I am assuming you believe you are, even quoting NT Scripture if it is not for believers today? Without the NT, which is, again, for God’s covenant people, how do you personally know the truth of God? What is your Bible?

            I don’t know you, so I don’t know whether your interpretations of Scripture come from your own thinking or from the church you attend, but they are not compatible with the Word of God. I will pray that God will reveal the truth of His Word to you and that He will lead you to a body of believers who will help you learn the plain truth of what has revealed.

            Yours in Christ~
            Barbara

      • I have to correct you on one thing–our “sin nature” is put to death when we put our faith and given saving grace by Christ’s blood–Romans 7:6 delves into this reality a little. We’re not motivated by sin, but are influenced by the sin that’s in the world. We are a “new creation”, that old nature has been put to death. Therefore, it’s not in our nature to sin, but we can succumb to the influences of this world.

        • P.S. Thought I should ad my little comment was in response to Eric’s comment on our sin nature.
          God Bless

        • Romans 7:6 doesn’t say anything about our sin nature. It says that we are delivered from the law and that we SHOULD serve in newness of spirit. Romans 6:11 says it is up to us to reckon ourselves dead to sin, but we do have a choice. We can still yield our members as servants of unrighteousness unto sin (Romans 6:13). I agree that we are a new creation, which means the new nature is within us, but there is a war between the old and new natures. That is what Paul talks about in Romans 7. Note Romans 7:22 that the inward man delights in the law of God, but Romans 7:23 says that the law of sin is still in our members. That is the sin nature still present in the believer.

    • May I suggest we read I John 2:18-19; what about Matthew 13 esp verse 30 in both cases they grew up together one in a field another in a church possibly. The Lord says they never where His. Romans 8 talks about being persuaded verses 35-39 talk about Paul knowing nothing can separate Him from God’s love, in verse 39 he says, “nor any created thing shall be able to separate us from the love of God which is in Christ Jesus our Lord.” From my understanding of OT and NT God was involved in our creation. So I am wondering when does God’s love stop? based on everything I have read in the Bible, His love is everlasting, and we are sealed with the Holy Spirit until the day of redemption Eph. 1:13-14. If we are to base our salvation on what we do or don’t do we have now added to grace, and have become legalistic. However, “we shall not sin that grace abound” “shall not tempt the Lord you God” God Bless kept in Him

  2. I appreciate the study of this topic and not just telling the reader what to believe, based on your own personal understanding. I look forward to futher posts.
    “we report, you decide” BLB Blog
    lol
    J

  4. One thing I especially liked about Justin Alfred’s commentary here in Part 2 is his emphasis on “true believer” and being “truly a child of God”, because there are those who aren’t true, just religious pretenders, like Pharisees. We can only tell who they are by their manifested fruits. But I thought to look at who God’s born from above children are from the top looking down, being seated in heavenly places in Christ, rather than looking up reacting as fallen humans. I wanted to look at a true child of God from that different perspective, so it can be seen what is meant by a true believer can “lose” eternal life or salvation.

    2 Corinthians 5:17: Therefore if any man [be] in Christ, [he is] a new creature: old things are passed away; behold, all things are become new.

    This scripture, and there are others, is talking about an actual change that takes place within a human being on the earth who is in Jesus by faith, given through the Grace of God. A new, quickened spirit creating a new creature is given. The spirit of the creature made as the first Adam, although still an image of God, had lost its guiding life connection with God and died, corrupting the soul and flesh of humanity through Adam’s sin of unbelief. (1 Cor 15:22) Father God made alive, through Jesus, a new human spirit forming a new creature (spirit, soul and body), that is now able to be wholly transformed into the image of Jesus. He placed an incorruptible seed into it around which an immortal body will be formed. His method was having saving faith in Jesus the Messiah’s deity and mission activated by the preaching of that good news! The miracle is that the new spirit creates a different type of human being, made after the image of the last Adam, Jesus, Father God’s beloved Son. The new quickened human spirit of the true child of God is given by God, no doubt about that, for His purpose and furtherance of His plan. (1 Corinthians 5:18; 6:1)

    This new creature is the “true believer”. The change is actual, real, and can be felt, perceived! It is not a mental agreement with God’s scriptures and a lifestyle change. It is a new living, functioning, “sanctifying”, connection with God through Jesus the Messiah by the Spirit of God (2 Corinthians 3:18). It has always been God’s plan to have Jesus enter into the earth among its people, (John 17:4-5 KJV), to sire eternal children (Ephesians 2:1, 5 KJV), a family, made in the image of His Son who would be the first of many (not all), of a new type of human being.

    Rom 8:29 For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate [to be] conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren.

    We can see God’s plan in play by the fact that even before there was the sin of Adam, the Lamb was slain and blood shed for sin (Rev 13:8, 1 Peter 1:19-20). This was all set up and completed in eternity. The purpose of God’s plan was not just for the salvation of fallen humans so as to continue living “an abundant life” on this earth. God’s plan is to have a new race of human beings, made like Christ, taken out of this earth, the body of Jesus the Messiah, who would rule and reign with Him under a new heaven, a new earth in a New Jerusalem, the throne of God.

    In the context of viewing God’s plan and purpose for Sons, it becomes apparent, that when someone talks about a true believer losing his salvation, or his eternal life, they are saying that God kills the newly recreated, made alive spirit, again,(or replaces it with the old one!), withdraws the Holy Spirit, removes the incorruptible seed, and undoes any godly changes wrought in the person by the Holy Spirit. He changes the person back into a dead, wicked human deserving the wages of sin.

    They are also saying that God made a wrong choice in giving His free gift of eternal life to that one! Oops! What a silly god that would be. His sovereignty is limited and He is double minded, especially since there are scriptures which show His indecision as He contradicts Himself. How human that vain reasoning is. God is not God at all in that system of wisdom. People who believe this of God deserve to have a god that inept.

    Grace, Peace and Truth is in Jesus,

    Dee

    • Sorry, the reference “for His purpose and furtherance of His plan.” should be (2 Corinthians 5:18 KJV, and (2 Corinthians 6:1 KJV)

      Dee

      • HIS PLAN:
        1 Peter 1:16
        Because it is written
        BE YE HOLY FOR I AM HOLY

        Ephesians 2:10
        For we are HIS workmanship
        created in CHRIST JESUS unto good works
        which GOD hath before ordained
        That we should walk in them

        1 John 3:10
        In this the children of GOD are manifest
        and the children of the devil
        —WHOSOEVER—doeth not righteousness
        IS NOT OF GOD neither he that loveth not his brother

        2 Peter 3:11
        Seeing then that all these things shall be dissolved what manner of persons ought you to be in all holy conversation and godliness

        Philippians 1:27
        Only let your conversation be as it becometh the gospel CHRIST that whether I come and see you or
        be absent I may hear of your affairs
        THAT YOU STAND FAST IN ONE SPIRIT
        WITH ONE MIND STRIVING TOGETHER
        —–FOR THE FAITH OF THE GOSPEL—-

        • (1 John 4:7-13) Beloved, let us love one another: for love is of God; and every one that loveth is born of God, and knoweth God. He that loveth not knoweth not God; for God is love. In this was manifested the love of God toward us, because that God sent his only begotten Son into the world, that we might live through him. Herein is love, not that we loved God, but that he loved us, and sent his Son [to be] the propitiation for our sins. Beloved, if God so loved us, we ought also to love one another. No man hath seen God at any time. If we love one another, God dwelleth in us, and his love is perfected in us. Hereby know we that we dwell in him, and he in us, because he hath given us of his Spirit.

          (1 John 3:14-19) We know that we have passed from death unto life, because we love the brethren. He that loveth not [his] brother abideth in death. Whosoever hateth his brother is a murderer: and ye know that no murderer hath eternal life abiding in him. Hereby perceive we the love [of God], because he laid down his life for us: and we ought to lay down [our] lives for the brethren. But whoso hath this world’s good, and seeth his brother have need, and shutteth up his bowels [of compassion] from him, how dwelleth the love of God in him? My little children, let us not love in word, neither in tongue; but in deed and in truth. And hereby we know that we are of the truth, and shall assure our hearts before him.

        • Hi Steve Morrow,

          Having read Revelations, I am sure you can see that God’s plan and purpose is bigger than salvation and holiness here on earth. But, it does include Holy Saints to rule with Him. While we are on the earth, we learn to be holy by faith through the Holy Spirit, like everything else we do, being led by the Holy Spirit.

          Here is a glimpse of what saints become as we “rule and reign” with Jesus in Glory.

          1Pe 2:9 But ye [are] a chosen generation, a royal priesthood, an holy nation, a peculiar people; that ye should shew forth the praises of him who hath called you out of darkness into his marvellous light:

          1Th 3:13 To the end he [that would be Jesus by God the Holy Spirit!] may stablish your hearts unblameable in holiness before God, even our Father, at the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ with all his saints.

          Rev 7:9 After this I beheld, and, lo, a great multitude, which no man could number, of all nations, and kindreds, and people, and tongues, stood before the throne, and before the Lamb, clothed with white robes, and palms in their hands;
          Rev 7:10 And cried with a loud voice, saying, Salvation to our God which sitteth upon the throne, and unto the Lamb.

          1Cr 6:2 Do ye not know that the saints shall judge the world? and if the world shall be judged by you, are ye unworthy to judge the smallest matters?
          1Cr 6:3 Know ye not that we shall judge angels? how much more things that pertain to this life?

          I do enjoy the scriptures in general, but your verses seem to be used randomly and out of context with each other, as well as not very often referring to the topic at hand. It is confusing and not edifying.

          The verses in your comments here seem to indicate a legalistic working to be Holy, jumping from the Old Covenant law keeping to the New Covenant under God’s grace.

          What exactly is it that you want to say?

          Grace is in Jesus the Messiah,

          Dee

          • Proverbs 2:6
            For the LORD —GIVETH—wisdom
            OUT OF HIS MOUTH COMETH KNOWLEDGE
            —AND UNDERSTANDING—

            Proverbs 2:3
            Yea —IF—thou criest after knowledge
            and liftest up thy voice for understanding

            Proverbs 2:4
            —IF—thou seekest her (not a fourth god)
            and searchest for her as for hid treasures

            Proverbs 2:5
            Then shalt thou understand
            THE FEAR OF THE LORD
            —AND FIND THE KNOWLEDGE OF GOD—

            Proverbs 8:13
            THE FEAR OF THE LORD
            is to hate evil pride and arrogancy and
            the evil way I do hate

            Psalm 145:19
            HE will fill the desire of them that fear HIM HE also will hear their cry and save them

            Proverbs 11:23
            The desire of the righteous is only good
            But the expectation of the wicked is wrath

            John 7:16
            JESUS answered them and said
            MY doctrine is not mine but HIS that sent ME

            John 7:17
            —IF ANY MAN—will do HIS will he shall
            know of the doctrine whether it be of GOD
            OR WHETHER I SPEAK OF MYSELF

            John 7:18
            He that speaketh of himself seeketh his own
            glory But he that seeketh HIS glory that
            sent him the same is true
            AND NO UNRIGHTEOUSNESS IS IN HIM

            Proverbs 8:8
            All the words of —MY MOUTH—are in
            RIGHTEOUSNESS THERE IS NOTHING FROWARD OR PERVERSE IN THEM

            Proverbs 8:7
            For —MY MOUTH—shall speak truth
            and wickedness is an abomination to MY LIPS

            Psalm 145:18
            The LORD is nigh unto them that call upon HIM —TO ALL THAT CALL UPON HIM IN TRUTH—

            Proverbs 18:2
            A fool finds no pleasure in understanding
            But delights in airing his own opinion

            John 8:47
            He that is of GOD heareth GODS words
            You therefore hear them not because you are not of GOD

            Luke 8:21
            And HE answered and said unto them
            MY MOTHER AND MY BRETHREN ARE THESE WHICH
            HEAR THE WORD OF GOD AND DO IT

            LOVING THE LORD

  5. Hebrews 10:38
    Now the just shall live by faith
    But if any man draw back MY soul shall have no pleasure in him

    Hebrews 10:39
    But we are not of them who draw back unto perdition
    But of them that believe to the saving of the soul

    Romans 13:11
    And that knowing the time
    That now it is high time to awake out of sleep
    For now is our salvation nearer than when we first believed

    John 7:38
    He that believeth on ME as the scripture hath said
    out of his belly shall flow rivers of living water

    Colossians 1:21
    And you that —WERE—sometime alienated and enemies in your mind by—WICKED WORKS—yet now hath HE reconciled

    Colossians 1:22
    In the body of HIS flesh through death
    to present you holy and unblameable and unreproveable
    in HIS sight

    Colossians 1:23
    —IF YOU CONTINUE— in the faith grounded and settled
    and be not moved away from the—HOPE OF THE GOSPEL—
    which you have heard and which was preached unto every creature
    which is under heaven where of I Paul am made a minister

    Hebrews 10:39
    But we are not of them who draw back unto perdition
    But of them that believe to the saving of the soul

    John 15:9
    As the FATHER hath loved ME so have I loved you
    —CONTINUE YE IN MY LOVE—

    John 15:10
    —IF YOU KEEP MY COMMANDMENTS—you shall abide in MY love
    Even as I have kept MY FATHERS commandments and abide in
    HIS love

    John 14:15
    —IF—you love ME
    KEEP MY COMMANMENTS

    Acts 5:29
    Then Peter and the other apostles answered and said
    We ought to obey GOD rather than men

    LOVING YOU MY LORD JESUS

  6. 1Cr 4:3-21, Mat 7:1-3, 7:5, Luk 6:37,41-42, Eze 33:11-20
    I have such a long way to go yet only by the grace of God. Judging anyone else affirms my own unrighteousness to be repented of. Self will, Satan’s I will.

  7. Ephesians 4:30 says – And grieve not the holy Spirit of God, whereby ye are sealed unto the day of redemption.

    However if you read the scripture closely it says “…grieve not the Holy Spirit.” That tells me that we cannot loose our salvation unless we choose to do so. In other words God can keep us from falling and can seal us but we have to cooperate with God. As long as we cooperate our salvation is as sure as God’s love. Remember, God create us with free will. I can choose to follow Christ and I can choose to follow the devil at anytime I choose.

    A couple of scriptures to consider:

    Now the Spirit speaketh expressly, that in the latter times some shall depart from the faith, giving heed to seducing spirits, and doctrines of devils. 1Timothy 4:1

    Ye therefore, beloved, seeing ye know [these things] before, beware lest ye also, being led away with the error of the wicked, fall from your own stedfastness. 2Peter 3:17

    He that is unjust, let him be unjust still: and he which is filthy, let him be filthy still: and he that is righteous, let him be righteous still: and he that is holy, let him be holy still.And, behold, I come quickly; and my reward [is] with me, to give every man according as his work shall be. Revelation 22:11-12 (This is right before Christ comes, indicating that before he came some people did not remain righteous or holy)

    But when the righteous turneth away from his righteousness, and committeth iniquity, [and] doeth according to all the abominations that the wicked [man] doeth, shall he live? All his righteousness that he hath done shall not be mentioned: in his trespass that he hath trespassed, and in his sin that he hath sinned, in them shall he die. Ezekiel 18:24

    God Bless you all. If you remain steadfast then we won’t have to worry about missing out on salvation. Stay in the faith!

    • Tory~

      Yes! Exactly! It has always been “IF we remain steadfast.”

      God Bless you!
      Your sister in Christ~
      Barbara

  8. I love that the Lord is my Victorious Warrior. I can do nothing apart from Him. He is patiently and quietly loving me as I am working out my salvation in fear and trembling. I am His bond servant. I want the people who God created to be with me in this generation to see His love in me through the way I live and by sharing the Gospel, so that they will seek Him and find Him. He does not need me to perform His works, He chooses to use me and for this I am thankful!Nothing can remove me from being His child. Remember in anything that is living fruit takes time to grow ;. Child of God do not be discouraged! Philippians 2:12;Zephaniah 3:17;Acts 17:25-27;John 15:5

    • Tracy,

      Thanks for that encouragement to “Stand fast therefore in the liberty wherewith Christ hath made us free, and be not entangled again with the yoke of bondage.” Gal 5:1.

      Boy do we need that in these end times. Thanks!

      Grace is in the New Covenant in Jesus.

      Dee

    • Tracey~

      While it is true that nothing outside of ourselves can remove you and I from being His child. We can, through the free will that God gave us, remove ourselves.

      Yours in Christ~
      Barbara

  9. Justin at BLB~

    First, I just want to thank you and everyone at BLB who have given of their times, talents, and wisdom in order that the body of Christ may grow in all grace and knowledge of our Lord Jesus Christ. As we come together in true humbleness of who the Lord is and how His Word reveals everything we need to know about His most gracious plan of salvation, we can be confident that we can know it because darkness is contrary to His very nature. That the body of Christ is still arguing, almost 2,000 years later, about an issue that is second only to the salvation message itself, rather than walking in the love, truth, power, and life that He purposed, must fill our God with great grief.

    I am one who believes that a true, born-again believer, according to John 3:3-6, can lose his or her salvation. As I’ve written several times, it was my ignorance that compelled me to study God’s Word so that I would know for myself and so I could give an answer based upon the reconciliation of all relevant scriptures as II Timothy 3:16 demands. So much of what I’ve heard from believers on this topic, even in the church I attend, is the results of proof texting, which is, as you know, not the way we are to approach Scripture to formulate doctrine.

    I don’t know if you read my comments that I posted on the introductory page of this series from September 19, but in them I’ve shown how the verses given by both sides of the argument are reconciled to bring us biblical truth on this topic. In addition, on the second page of this post, in my response to Dee (Sept. 25), I posted just four of the numerous examples that I found that demonstrate that believers can very much lose their salvation. So far, not one person who believes that a true believer cannot lose his or her salvation has given even one reasonable argument to contradict my findings. There have been comments about me personally, which are fallacies, and there have been the usual verses cited and reasons given to negate my premise, but these are fallacies because they fail to consider all pertinent verses. I just want an honest examination of all the information, and if I’m wrong, I’m wrong, but just telling me I’m wrong and saying that God will never leave us nor forsake us is not an honest examination.

    Part of what I discuss in the paper I wrote after my study is how God’s sovereignty works in conjunction with mankind’s free will because that issue does cause people problems. It is a little long to post here, but the crux of it is that God’s sovereignty allows for the complete and unrestricted freedom of mankind’s free will with regard to his SALVATION (I’ve used caps so there is no misunderstanding as to what I’m saying). People can drift or walk away from God after being saved because God must allow absolute freedom of choice or else His whole plan of salvation is a sham, with no meaning or integrity, so what this means is that the freedom to choose can result in either good or bad consequences. In other words, what is the point of giving people the right to choose for themselves if there is no negative consequence? This was the whole point of God giving Adam and Eve the choice of whether to eat of the tree of knowledge of good and evil even though God knew it would plummet His entire creation into sin and death if they chose to eat of it, and if there ever was a time for God to have played His ‘sovereignty card’ to trump mankind’s free agency, this would have been the time, yet we see that He didn’t interfere but let man make his decision and reap the consequences, and it is exactly the same today with each true believer. This is why Joshua said, “Choose you THIS DAY whom ye will serve” (Josh. 24:15b). It is because it isn’t about making one (salvation) decision and calling it a day; it is a lifetime of daily and, sometimes, depending upon the trial or tragedy, minute-by-minute decision to follow Christ.

    Because each person has this freedom, he or she can make the decision to follow Christ and, then, at a later date, make another decision not to whether through apathy or rebellion. One can only truly have freedom of choice if one continually has the freedom to say ‘no’ as well as to say ‘yes’ because, by definition, the word ‘choice’ means that there is an option, that there is the power to select from alternatives. In addition, the freedom to say no to God is just as important the as the freedom to say yes to Him because He wants a relationship borne of love, not of compulsion or predestination. In Hebrews 12:2, we read that “Jesus [is] the author and finisher of [our] faith,” and just as we chose to have Him author our faith, so do we choose to have Him be the finisher of it.

    I know you are busy, but I have written this with the hope that you will read and consider what I have written in light of your comments on Hebrews 12:4-11.

    Thank you and God bless you.
    Your sister in Christ~
    Barbara

  10. This is a great study on the wonderful doctrine of security for the true believer in Christ. I am looking forward to more. Thanks Justin.

    • Boy, did Sept. 28 “My Utmost for His Highest” by Oswald Chambers hit home for me on this topic.
      J.

  12. What about Charles Templeton? He was saved in 1936. He worked as an evangelist with Billy Graham in many countries around the world. In fact at one time he even surpassed Billy Graham in prominence. For some time an average of 150 people a night came forward to be saved at crusades Charles was preaching at. Problem is, Charles had some serious doubts about Genesis (never a good thing). One day he was telling Billy Graham about his intention to attend Princeton Theological Seminary. He said: “But, Billy, it’s simply not possible any longer to believe, for instance, the biblical account of creation. The world wasn’t created over a period of days a few thousand years ago; it has evolved over millions of years. It’s not a matter of speculation; it’s demonstrable fact.” (all lies). He told Billy it was “intellectual suicide” to not question the Bible, and keep preaching God’s Word as authoritative. He started going to Princeton in 1948. Instead of getting help with his doubts, Princeton only strengthened his doubts. Not surprising since Princeton was and even more so still is, a very liberal college. In 1957 after a long struggle with doubt, Charles said he was an agnostic. In 1996, wrote the book “Farewell to God: My reasons for rejecting the Christian faith.” Sadly a short 5 years later, Charles died after a long struggle with Alzheimer’s.

    B.J.

    • Bill~

      Below are just some of the verses that demonstrate that believers can leave the salvation of the Lord:

      John 8:31-32, 51
      John 15:5-6
      Colossians 1:22-23
      II Timothy 2:12
      Hebrews 3:14
      Hebrews 12:15
      I John 1:7
      I John 2:24

      Charles Templeton’s story is very sad, indeed, but we don’t check our free will at the door of our salvation, and the same free will we used to enter the covenant is the same free will we can use to leave it, either through apathy or rebellion. As Romans 11:21 says, “For if God spared not the natural branches, [take heed] lest he also spare not thee.” God will uphold all the stipulations that He has agreed to to keep the covenant between Him and us, and the same is expected of us. Isn’t this the great lesson we are to glean from the story of the millions of Israelites, God’s covenant people, who did not enter the promised land and God’s rest? Isn’t this the reason why we are given the warning in Hebrews 3:8-19?

      Have a blessed day!
      Yours in Christ~
      Barbara

      • Barbara ~ Thankyou for your posts; especially your comments regarding free will and our salvation and for the verses you have listed above. I didn’t want to believe that we could lose our salvation, but after a Bible study into the subject a year or so ago I had to accept that it is possible. The verse that really convicted me was Revelation 3:5 where Jesus Himself speaks of blotting names out of the book of life.

        Blessings and love in Christ

        • I should clarify my last sentence as, in the verse, Jesus is saying He will never blot out the name of “one who conquers”. However, the fact that He has referenced not blotting
          out a name is highly suggestive of the possibility of Him removing a name from the book.

          • I understood what you meant! Although Revelation 3:5 couldn’t be any clearer, I’m sure you also found that the letters to the other six churches also illustrate that the consequences of not repenting and overcoming are elements of salvation, not rewards.

            I hope to hear more from you!

        • Caroline~

          Thank you also for posting your comments. I, too, did a study, not with the intention of proving one side or the other true but to reconcile all Scripture and letting the “Eternal Security” chips fall where they may, and they do, as you also found, fall on the side that true believers can lose their salvation.

          Please join me in prayer that the truth of God’s Word will go forth into His body.

          God bless you richly in all things!
          Your sister in Christ~
          Barbara

          • I will Barbara, and thankyou. When we come to the Word of God we really need to be open to what the Scriptures are actually saying and not just look for and pick out verses that fit with what we want to believe.

            Many blessings dear sister,

            with love in Christ,
            Caroline

    • Hi Bill J,

      Based on your narrative, if you are truly born from above by the Spirit of God, having received confirmation in your spirit that you belong to Jesus and have eternal life in and by Him,

      Do you really believe God gave Charles eternal life and took it back because Charles and, therefore, God, changed his mind?

      No response or comment is required. Only if you want to!

      Grace is in Jesus the Messiah,

      Dee

      • Dee ~

        Sadly, Charles chose to reject God out of his own free will. Do you believe that God will count someone once saved, who has later chosen to reject or give up on their relationship with God through Jesus, as being one who has “overcometh” and worthy to “inherit all things”? If so, how can God say to such a person “I will be his God, and he shall be my son” (Revelation 21:7) when that person has chosen to say

        • Oops! Accidently posted the above before completing and ‘editing’ what I was trying to ask. Sorry! Hopefully I’ll get the hang of this soon, lol :~D

          The finished comment/question should follow this one!

      • Dee ~

        Sadly, Charles chose to reject God out of his own free will. Do you believe that God will count someone once saved, who has later chosen to reject or give up on their relationship with God through Jesus, as being one who has “overcometh” and worthy to “inherit all things”? If so, how can God say to such a person “I will be his God, and he shall be my son” (Revelation 21:7)? Wouldn’t that make God a liar?

      • Hello Caroline,

        It is apparent in Bill J’s narrative that God used Charles in whatever work He chose for His glory, just as He did Pharaoh, Canaanites, Cyrus, nation of Israel and other unbelievers. But just like those, Charles did not see the Goodness or Grace of God in the face of Jesus the Messiah, like Abraham and others did. Someone said this is the second most important question next to salvation. I believe that importance has been made up. I don’t see that as truth in the scriptures. No where do I see believers going around pulling out scriptures and wondering if their salvation will hold. I do see lots of scriptural admonition to recognize, and not be engaged in, unrighteous behavior, and that continually doing that will uncover and prove that you do not have God’s Life.

        I think most Christians can’t see, (and in the case of carnal Christians), don’t understand that the Life from Jesus is spiritual Life, contained in our spirits and worked out by God into our minds and flesh (Eph 2:10 KJV). This is why there is a very carnal Christian religion which, having been steeped in unbelief, is very ineffective for salvation and ripe in apostasy. For many reasons, including humanistic and philosophical ones, people think salvation is mental, soulish agreement with the scriptures, and perform good works based on their human understanding of that agreement. But God is very clear that that is not where eternity and faith to believe God is. His is also very clear that He is the one who has foreordained those works for the mind and flesh of the believer to walk in and work out! Eternity is not based in our minds. Eternity is spiritual and only found in a new, made alive, human spirit. Faith is the spiritual faculty that has access to the things of God, and it is not mental! (Col 3:1-3 KJV)

        I confess that I don’t know most of the mysteries of God, only the ones He reveals to me. I have an eternal spirit, right now, which I how I learned what I do know and to continue to learn them. And He has revealed to my eternal spirit and my right now mind, Who Jesus is and His absolute faithfulness in everything, including my scripturally revealed, sound, eternal “salvation”, (not the doctrine of “eternal security”). And I know that I am not the only one with this kind of faith in God’s truth. God has revealed this wonderful comfort to the body of the Messiah (Christ) by His Spirit through His Word, by the faith He has given us–not our faith–His faith. He has shown us that salvation, Life, eternal Life, is in Jesus, never to be repented of.

        Caroline, I believe only God, not anyone who cannot trust in the revealed “character” of God.

        Num 23:19 God [is] not a man, that he should lie; neither the son of man, that he should repent: hath he said, and shall he not do [it]? or hath he spoken, and shall he not make it good?

        If you can’t trust Jesus for your Life, then there is no basis for trusting and believing in Him for anything at all.

        I didn’t go looking for salvation or to prove that I could lose it. In point of fact, I wasn’t looking for God at all! (Psalm 14:1-3 KJV) I was too busy in the world being wicked. But when God called me, I just believed Him. The verse I gave up top came with the call to believe His Son Jesus. And Jesus told me to take His yoke upon myself and learn of Him. When I run across individual scripture verses that seem to malign God’s revealed character and His Will about anything, I give it right back to Him for explanation, because I know what He has done in me. Sometimes He explains, many times He doesn’t, but He never contradicts anything He revealed to me as truth, and I walk in peace. I believe that is what He does with all His children. The “ifs” of God will never happen to me, or one who is chosen for Life, because that Life will never be repented of by God.

        If that is not good enough for you and other people, then the God kind of faith is not in you; unbelief is there, and unbelief will bring eternal death. You will be continually looking to contradict what God has said, or trip Him up with His own words. That is unrighteousness. There is no Peace in that activity. You will never win that battle.

        I will continue in praying God’s will be done on earth, and pray that you, and those people walking in unbelief, will hear the Holy Spirit, repent, (if it be God’s will for you), and receive revelation, a solid knowing, from Father God that you have that kind of salvation in Jesus the Messiah. (Matthew 16:16-17) You can not get God’s Life from anyone but Jesus (John 5:39-40), as the scriptures said. Caroline, make your calling and election sure, by the Grace of God. Believe God!

        Jhn 7:38 He that believeth on me, as the scripture hath said, out of his belly shall flow rivers of living water.

        Grace, Peace and Life is in Jesus the Messiah.

        Dee

        • Dee~

          Because you wrote that you weren’t going to return to the September 19 blog page, I thought I would post my comments to your post here so that you could answer them.

          You wrote, “To me, unlearned questions include your uninspired “study”, and the rejection of the NATION of Israel included in God’s new covenant in your christian replacement theology.”

          ~As to your first comment about my “uninspired ‘study,’” you are more than welcome to tell me what the correct inspired interpretation of my four examples are if I am wrong.

          ~As to you second comment about my “rejection of the NATION of Israel included in God’s new covenant in your christian replacement theology,” I will submit the comments I posted on September 14 to Jerry:

          When my Jewish grandmother accepted Jesus as her Messiah, she considered herself a Christian. Other Jewish people don’t, preferring to stay connected with their Jewish culture and traditions. In God’s sight, there is no difference; all believers belong to the spiritual house of Israel.

          However and sadly, there has been a lot of misinformation and miscommunication on both sides although it is usually the “Christian” side that gets most of the flack for its supposed nonacceptance of its Jewish brothers and sisters in Christ, so let me relate a personal experience that might shed some light on this, beginning with a little background. My dad was a non-practicing Jew, so there was nothing Jewish in my upbringing. However, several years ago, I was invited to a Messianic congregation for the blessing of a baby. The rabbi taught on Paul, and I enjoyed his sermon very much, but at some point, he interjected a very thoughtless and incorrect comment about “Christians.” Needless to say, as a Christian, I was really taken aback that he would say such a thing. A week or so later, I found myself at a social event where this same person was present. As I was sitting there, again pondering what he had said, the Lord put something on my heart, and it was that there are some Messianic Jews who are guilty of the very thing thing about which they accuse Christians, that of spiritual elitism. It is my prayer that the walls between these two groups will come down so that we can walk in the true freedom of fellowship that God intended.

          ~As to everything else you wrote, I will again say that I will let the Lord judge between you and me.

          Barbara

          P.S. In your post to Caroline, you have some pretty condemning things to say about “most Christians” and “carnal Christians,” which, as I can see, are those who disagree with you, but you ignore what we are trying to say. The fact is, Dee, if you had the truth, if what you claim as truth really is from the Holy Spirit, then you could easily answer just the few examples that I and others have given because they are a part of Scripture. You wrote that “[God] never contradicts anything He [has] revealed to [you] as truth,” but that only holds if He has truly revealed it to you because whatever you think He has revealed to you must be able to stand against an even more foundational truth, that He will never reveal to you anything that contradicts His Word. Your refusal to honestly address the examples that some of us have written doesn’t make them go away. Please read today’s blog because it gives some sound advice about reconciling our beliefs with God’s Word. I will be praying that your mind and heart will be open to the truth and that all of your thoughts will be taken captive to Christ Jesus.

          • LOL!!

            Yeshua Ha Mashiyach is Lord to the Glory of the Father! He is Peace and Life is in Him Only!

          • Dee~

            Aside from the fact that you were obviously wrong about your accusations about my supposed belief in replacement theology, why do you laugh? Why do you think it’s funny that you cannot reconcile your beliefs with the revealed Word of God? You are wrong, not only with your belief that a true believer cannot lose his or her salvation but about your derogatory comment that “The Christian religion doesn’t like this because they want a little ‘free will.'” Do you think God has not given us free will, that He thinks so little of His plan that He doesn’t think anyone can choose it initially or continually?

            Barbara

          • Dee~

            I just want to clarify something. It’s not merely that you are wrong because I think there are many people who love the Lord and are following Him who are wrong. It goes beyond that. It’s that you not only repeatedly fail to address the verses that contradict your view, which should be your first clue that you don’t know Scripture as well as you think you do, you also mock, criticize, and belittle those people who don’t agree with you as you did with your “chuckle” with Jerry and your LOL with me or your comments about religious intimidation. If I am wrong, shouldn’t you be giving me the truth in love rather than attacking me? Even non-Christians know that attacking the person rather than the issue is a fallacy, but your posts are filled with them. Let me, again, suggest that you address my examples without falsely supporting them with fallacy. The truth has nothing to hide, and if I’m wrong, I’m wrong, but you’re going to have to do more than name calling to prove it.

            Barbara

            Barbara

          • Barbara,

            I don’t laugh at or mock your or anyone’s views. My chuckle was for Jerry’s deadpan responses. My LOL was amazement at how you have ratcheted up your methods of consistent attacks, against me in particular. I had no comment but now, I do. Your comments are even more full of half truths, misquotes, partial quotes, assumptions, and outright lies, which anyone can see if they read my posts. My views and beliefs are everywhere on this blog for the last 2 weeks. And my comments concerning what you believe and wrote are generally included there also. You should honestly quote all of what I say and not insert your bracketed interpretations. Your comments are here too, so I have not made up and reinterpreted what you wrote. Your behavior is typical of your insincere discourse with me from the very beginning of my posting here.

            Your continual hounding me to directly refute your views that disagree with mine, that you consider wrong, are also on the blog. So what is your objective? Is it getting the truth of God’s word? It is here on the blog. The Holy Spirit uses the voices of many posters, believers (including me), commentaries, and the scriptures. It’s not my job to prove to you or anyone the truth of the doctrine of God. That is the Holy Spirit’s job, which He does by revelation through preaching and teaching.

            Your increasing anger over the fact that I won’t directly engage you, other than this and similar observations of your behavior, has become obsessive! I do not want to respond to your antagonistic comments, or your views, unless, like anyone else, I want to. Get a grip Barbara!

            Unlike what you say about your unseemly behavior when I comment on it, I will say something else: The Lord is Faithful and true in all His judgements. Unfortunately, I know you will continue these type of ungodly attacks.

            Life is Only in Jesus.

            Dee B

          • Dee~

            Dee: “I don’t laugh at or mock your or anyone’s views.”

            Here are some of your quotes:

            ~I have said that I know what I know by the Holy Spirit. You say you know that saints can lose their God-given eternal life from your personal “study”.

            ~You seem bent on undermining the faith of God’s people in His word with your “study”. That is a shame.

            ~I suggest you do a serious “study”, with the Holy Spirit, on the Old and New Covenant…

            ~You are falsely proclaiming that I, Dee, have not answered your questions in your “study”.

            ~For your reasons, you want a direct, one for one, tit for tat, squaring off with me concerning God’s word on “eternal security” and your “study”.

            ~To me, unlearned questions include your uninspired “study”,

            ~I know this truth not because I “studied” it, but because the Holy Spirit has come and has led me into this understanding of God’s eternal truth…

            As you can see, it’s pretty easy to check the truth of what someone says against what has been posted on a public forum.

            Barbara

  13. I believe the crux of the matter is a persons understanding of a ‘true believer’. A true believer is one who has received the baptism of Christ. Many think that this is automatic once they accept Christ as their redeemer, but this is not so which is why the lambs and sheep of Christ need feeding with living waters.

  14. Thanks to all who commented. I had a couple of points I was trying to make. First is about choices we make. Joshua highlights choices to make in Joshua 24:15 “And if it seem evil unto you to serve the LORD, choose you this day whom ye will serve; whether the gods which your fathers served that [were] on the other side of the flood, or the gods of the Amorites, in whose land ye dwell: but as for me and my house, we will serve the LORD.” Charles Templeton with his free will (God does not want robots) chose to believe a lie. I only gave a few details on Charles. He struggled with his doubts so, that he suffered frequent chest pains. When he went to a specialist in Pennsylvania, after finding nothing wrong with his heart, he was told: “Clear up the conflict in your life—namely the doubts you harbor about the authority of the Bible from which you so fervently preach to thousands each night.” Sadly his choice finally affected his very mind, and his final destination. Caroline pointed to an excellent verse which nails it: Revelation 3:5, the only way names get in THE Book is by salvation. The other point I was making, is the compromise most Christians (like Charles and myself at one time) make, saying it is OK to believe some kind of Evolution I.E.: creation did not take 6 days but millions of years, it was a local flood not global, Big Bang, Gap Theory etc. In fact, Blue Letter Bible has a link to an excellent site on Creation vs Evolution: http://www.creationtoday.org/ for Christians who need encouragement to believe the Bible from the very first verse in Genesis. Blessings to all, Bill J.

    • Thank you, Bill, for bringing these great, spiritual truths to this forum. The body of Christ has been weakened because of its failure to study, pray, repent, and fast. This has resulted in belief systems that have been polluted with lies and half truths from Satan, the secular world, pseudo-Christian groups, and from other believers who do not rightly divide the Word.

      God bless you!
      Your sister in Christ~
      Barbara

    • Good Morning Bill J:

      As always, as I believe you know, it is important to look at scripture in its context, setting, surrounding verses and God’s revealed mind, to understand God’s thought and perspective in a particular case. Otherwise, we go into sin and error:

      Rev 3:1 And unto the angel of the church in Sardis write; These things saith he that hath the seven Spirits of God, and the seven stars; I know thy works, that thou hast a name that thou livest, and art dead.

      This Sardis church group, has “a name that thou livest, and art dead.” They had a reputation of looking like they are alive in Jesus, but were what? Dead? That’s what Jesus said, DEAD!

      Rev 3:2 Be watchful, and strengthen the things which remain, that are ready to die: for I have not found thy works perfect before God.

      As a church body, Jesus has “not found thy works perfect before God.” Would you say that is true?

      Rev 3:3 Remember therefore how thou hast received and heard, and hold fast, and repent. If therefore thou shalt not watch, I will come on thee as a thief, and thou shalt not know what hour I will come upon thee.

      How did they receive and hear. By faith? Who is Jesus talking to in this verse? Read the next one, which tells us:

      Rev 3:4 Thou hast a few names even in Sardis which have not defiled their garments; and they shall walk with me in white: for they are worthy.

      Within that church group, (obviously not full of believers just like today), there are some who have not defiled, have remembered how they “received and heard, and” held fast and repented and watched, and overcame, in faith, which is the only way with God. Would you say this is so in these verses, so far?

      Rev 3:5 He that overcometh, the same shall be clothed in white raiment; and I will not blot out his name out of the book of life, but I will confess his name before my Father, and before his angels.

      Who is going to walk with Jesus, who will He NOT blot out, remove from His the book? Those “few names” in the Sardis ekklesia that “have not defiled their garments; and they shall walk with me in white: for they are worthy,…overcometh… clothed in white raiment…” What about this? Is this a true understanding of this verse?

      Do you think that God has a holy eraser used to get rid of His mistakes! Doesn’t He know who is worthy? He is affirming that those who walk with Him as described will not ever be taken out. Those who don’t, are dead already and obviously not in His Book of Life!

      Why would a true believer, trusting Jesus for Life, want to believe otherwise? Why not remember what you “hast received and heard, and hold fast, and repent” believing that Jesus is Faithful and true, not a liar and that the other group, who is DEAD, never was and can never be in Book of LIFE! At least as far as the Sardis church is concerned! LOL!

      Rev 3:6 He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches.

      Dee

  15. I have been blessed to see that a number of those commenting here have their “eyes anointed with eye salve” (Rev 3:18 from Rev 3:14 to 22 below)so that they can see the truth about the overcoming Christian walk which is so plain in all the Scriptures.

    “And unto the angel of the church of the Laodiceans write; These things saith the Amen, the faithful and true witness, the beginning of the creation of God; I know thy works, that thou art neither cold nor hot: I would thou wert cold or hot. So then because thou art lukewarm, and neither cold nor hot, I will spue thee out of my mouth. Because thou sayest, I am rich, and increased with goods, and have need of nothing; and knowest not that thou art wretched, and miserable, and poor, and blind, and naked: I counsel thee to buy of me gold tried in the fire, that thou mayest be rich; and white raiment, that thou mayest be clothed, and [that] the shame of thy nakedness do not appear; and anoint thine eyes with eyesalve, that thou mayest see.

    As many as I love, I rebuke and chasten: be zealous therefore, and repent. Behold, I stand at the door, and knock: if any man hear my voice, and open the door, I will come in to him, and will sup with him, and he with me. To him that overcometh will I grant to sit with me in my throne, even as I also overcame, and am set down with my Father in his throne. He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches.”

    Note that Jesus says to the Lukewarm church, “I would thou wert cold or hot. So then because thou art lukewarm, and neither cold nor hot, I will spue thee out of my mouth.” They were not cold as the unsaved natural man is; they were lukewarm indicating that there once was an experience with God. Note however that their unspiritual highmindedness had given them an imperious self confidence that earned Jesus’ stinging rebuke.

    There was hope however, because he invited them to repent. He was telling these church members who had once had an experience with the Lord that they needed to repent or perish.

    Note too who he said would be sitting with Him in glory, “To him that overcometh will I grant to sit with me in my throne, even as I also overcame, and am set down with my Father in his throne.” Each of these seven messages to the Churches in Rev 2 and 3 has with it a similar promise to the overcomers (or spiritual victors.

    Note this one from 3:5 :He that overcometh, the same shall be clothed in white raiment; and I will not blot out his name out of the book of life, but I will confess his name before my Father, and before his angels.” We know that God can and does blot names from his book because in Ex 32:33 The Lord told Moses, “Whosoever hath sinned against me, him will I blot out of my book.”

    Note also this promise,(2:26-28)”And he that overcometh, and keepeth my works unto the end, to him will I give power over the nations: And he shall rule them with a rod of iron; as the vessels of a potter shall they be broken to shivers: even as I received of my Father. And I will give him the morning star.” The Lord expects us to be overcomers and He gave us His Holy Spirit to do so.

    And finally this one (2:11) which strikes at the heart of this topic, “He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches; He that overcometh shall not be hurt of the second death.”

    This does not mean that we might not make mistakes, but when overcomers make a mistake they sincerely repent, and with all their heart and by God’s power try to avoid those mistakes in the future. The problem with the 21st century church is that most have been conditioned into a stumbling, bumbling walk where sin lurks – after all “All our righteousnesses are as filthy rags” we’ve been told – so why seek a clean and holy walk, if it’s all in vain? – so many people think.

    Note Isaiah 64:6,7 in context however, “But we are all as an unclean [thing], and all our righteousnesses [are] as filthy rags; and we all do fade as a leaf; and our iniquities, like the wind, have taken us away. And [there is] none that calleth upon thy name, that stirreth up himself to take hold of thee: for thou hast hid thy face from us, and hast consumed us, because of our iniquities.”

    This description of rejecting, idol-worshiping old Israel has been mis-used and it discourages new creatures in Christ from seeking to “be Holy, even as He is Holy”. These unrighteousnesses Isaiah describes are the same ones he started his prophecies with in Chapter 1:14-16, “Your new moons and your appointed feasts my soul hateth: they are a trouble unto me; I am weary to bear [them]. And when ye spread forth your hands, I will hide mine eyes from you: yea, when ye make many prayers, I will not hear: your hands are full of blood. Wash you, make you clean; put away the evil of your doings from before mine eyes; cease to do evil”;

    The unacceptable righteousness was their hypocritical heartless forms and rituals, which in the age of the law were holy when they came from a right heart, but like filthy rags when mere formalities from a departing heart.

    It’s so easy just to believe the Bible just the way it’s written. No cerebral explanations and work-arounds are needed. Praise God. Glory to Jesus our Saviour.

    • D~

      Yes and Amen!! You are exactly right about believing “the Bible just the way it’s written,” ALL of it (II Tim. 3:16), not just isolated verses. That a true believer, a person born again from above can lose his or her salvation is proven throughout Scripture, and some of the clearest, most understandable proofs of this are the letters written to the seven believing churches in Asia because each consequence is a loss of an element of salvation, not reward.

      I pray that each person on this blog will seek the truth of God’s Word for himself or herself because God will hold each one of us personally accountable. We are told that false prophets and false teachers are in the world, speaking great, swelling words and citing Scripture. The only way we can stand against them is if we study the Word, pray, repent, and fast.

      Thank you again!

      Yours in Christ~
      Barbara

  16. I appeal to the dear readers of this blog to look at the often quoted John 10:28,29 with its context – which is all of John 10. When one does that, its clear that a number of times before the wonderful promises in vs 28,29, Jesus further describes the nature of His sheep – the individuals that are in the Father’s hand.

    In vs 4,5 Jesus says, “And when he putteth forth his own sheep, he goeth before them, and the sheep follow him: for they know his voice. And a stranger will they not follow, but will flee from him: for they know not the voice of strangers.” Please note that these sheep are committed to their Shepherd’s voice and they will not follow the voice of others. Instead they will flee false voices.

    Again in vs 8 Jesus says, “All that ever came before me are thieves and robbers: but the sheep did not hear them.”

    In vs 10, He says, “I am the good shepherd, and know my [sheep], and am known of mine.”

    And in vs 27, just ahead of vs 28,29 Jesus again makes clear the new nature of His sheep, “My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me”.

    If Jesus’ sheep will not follow the voice of strangers, then it is incorrect to apply the promises of vs 28,29 to those who backslide from their repentance and new creature experience.

    Peter describes those who stop hearing their master’s voice in 2 Pet 2: 20-22, “For if after they have escaped the pollutions of the world through the knowledge of the Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ, they are again entangled therein, and overcome, the latter end is worse with them than the beginning. For it had been better for them not to have known the way of righteousness, than, after they have known [it], to turn from the holy commandment delivered unto them. But it is happened unto them according to the true proverb, The dog [is] turned to his own vomit again; and the sow that was washed to her wallowing in the mire.”

    Although they had escaped the pollutions of the world through knowing Jesus, and had been “washed”, when they turned back, their latter end was worse than the beginning. This is the same thing that Jesus said about Judas Iscariot in Mark 14:21, “The Son of man indeed goeth, as it is written of him: but woe to that man by whom the Son of man is betrayed! good were it for that man if he had never been born.”

    Praise God for His holy Word, which is so precious and powerful. We must never take isolated portions out of their context – the result will be incorrect ideas of men.

    • D~

      Again, thank you. You have given great examples to show how Scripture is to be interpreted. One thing I’ve noticed is that sometimes it’s the little things within Scripture that reveal the greater truth being told as you shared in your comment, “Please note that these sheep are committed to their Shepherd’s voice and they will not follow the voice of others. Instead they will flee false voices.” It is the idea of being “committed,” as you wrote, that gives the proper perspective, which is seen throughout Scripture, one such verse being Matthew 24:13 which says, “But he that shall endure unto the end, the same shall be saved.”

      As I was doing my study on whether true, born-again believers could lose their salvation, the passage that just stumped me for the longest time was Romans 8:28-30. I had found far too much verification throughout God’s Word to support that believers can lose their salvation, but this verse seemed to say otherwise, that once a person began the sequence, he or she would finish it. After much prayer, the Lord opened my eyes to see what I had glanced over so many times in reading these verses, the little word “love.” What “works together for good” is final salvation “to them that love God,” a truth expressed in Jeremiah 29:11: “For I know the thoughts that I think toward you, saith the LORD, thoughts of peace, and not of evil, to give you an expected end.” These verses assure of us God’s plan and faithfulness, but we still need to be “committed” to God and to “love” Him.

      Your sister in Christ~
      Barbara

  17. Thank you for bringing Romans 8 into the discussion. Yes, those wonderful promises are for “them that love God”. So many church-going people today are so tied to the idea that none of their works can ever amount to anything (because of the sinful nature)that they really don’t try to walk in holiness – they are convinced it’s futile.

    Romans 8 however – earlier in the chapter – really tackles this false notion. Paul says in vs 5-9, “For they that are after the flesh do mind the things of the flesh; but they that are after the Spirit the things of the Spirit. For to be carnally minded [is] death; but to be spiritually minded [is] life and peace. Because the carnal mind [is] enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be. So then they that are in the flesh cannot please God. But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his.”

    Note that “to be carnally minded is death” and “but ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwells in you.” And later in vs 13, “For if ye live after the flesh, ye shall die: but if ye through the Spirit do mortify the deeds of the body, ye shall live.”

    How can it be that so many religious people simply gloss over these verses and go on to misuse the promises in vs 28-39. They imply that it does not matter whether we’re really new creatures (in word and deed) as long as we once had a true conversion experience with Jesus? This chapter teaches so wonderfully that after we have that real life changing repentance encounter with Jesus, He gives us His Holy Spirit so our lives will be pleasing to Him. It also teaches that if we continue in fleshly ways, we will die – a principle that’s to be found all through God’s Holy Word.

    Romans 7 is likewise mis-applied. To avoid haranguing others, Paul humbly speaks of the natural man’s state in the first person. When he speaks of the natural man’s plight he says “but I am carnal, sold under sin”. At first glance this sounds like an excuse for the Christian to live in sin and defeat, but in verses like vs 9 Paul makes it clear that his first person statements describe the natural man in general. Vs 9 says “For I was alive without the law once: but when the commandment came, sin revived, and I died.” We know that Paul was a pharisee, the son of a Pharisee. He never lived without the law, so vs 9 clearly could not apply to him personally, but rather to man in general.

    And as to whether we who live in human bodies – earthly vessels – should seek to walk in holiness with the Lord, Paul says “And you, that were sometime alienated and enemies in [your] mind by wicked works, yet now hath he reconciled In the body of his flesh through death, to present you holy and unblameable and unreproveable in his sight: If ye continue in the faith grounded and settled, and [be] not moved away from the hope of the gospel, which ye have heard, [and] which was preached to every creature which is under heaven; whereof I Paul am made a minister” Col 1:21-23. The wonderful promise of being presented to our heavenly Father as holy and blameless is conditional on our continuing in the faith – grounded and settled.

    Jesus’ suffering during His earthly ministry, His death and separation from the Father on the cross for our sins is much too wonderful and precious to be squandered on converts who become half-hearted and go back into the world. Hebrews 6:4-6 teaches this, “For [it is] impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted of the heavenly gift, and were made partakers of the Holy Ghost, And have tasted the good word of God, and the powers of the world to come, If they shall fall away, to renew them again unto repentance; seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put [him] to an open shame.” Also see 2 Peter 2:20-22

    Modern man has become fascinated with the term “unconditional love”. This wonderful kind of love certainly applies to the human soul before they come to the Lord, but the Bible clearly teaches – from Genesis to Revelation – what He expects from us after He has made us new creatures. “Be not deceived; God is not mocked: for whatsoever a man soweth, that shall he also reap. For he that soweth to his flesh shall of the flesh reap corruption; but he that soweth to the Spirit shall of the Spirit reap life everlasting. And let us not be weary in well doing: for in due season we shall reap, if we faint not.” Gal 6:7-9. This is a Godly principle that never changes.

    Praise the Lord. If even one soul is blessed by this and has open eyes to see it will be well worth it. This is a fearful time which Paul well describes in 2 Thess 2:1-12. Let’s not be deceived, but rather “love the truth” instead.

    As I close this post, please let’s enjoy these fiery words of Jesus in Rev 22:11-21. These are the final words of the Bible and I hope they make you feel like I do – I feel fear of the Lord – the Savior and “Judge of all the earth” and a tremendous rejoicing because living this way brings honor and great joy.
    “He that is unjust, let him be unjust still: and he which is filthy, let him be filthy still: and he that is righteous, let him be righteous still: and he that is holy, let him be holy still. And, behold, I come quickly; and my reward [is] with me, to give every man according as his work shall be. I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the end, the first and the last. Blessed [are] they that do his commandments, that they may have right to the tree of life, and may enter in through the gates into the city. For without [are] dogs, and sorcerers, and whoremongers, and murderers, and idolaters, and whosoever loveth and maketh a lie. I Jesus have sent mine angel to testify unto you these things in the churches. I am the root and the offspring of David, [and] the bright and morning star. And the Spirit and the bride say, Come. And let him that heareth say, Come. And let him that is athirst come. And whosoever will, let him take the water of life freely. For I testify unto every man that heareth the words of the prophecy of this book, If any man shall add unto these things, God shall add unto him the plagues that are written in this book: And if any man shall take away from the words of the book of this prophecy, God shall take away his part out of the book of life, and out of the holy city, and [from] the things which are written in this book. He which testifieth these things saith, Surely I come quickly. Amen. Even so, come, Lord Jesus. The grace of our Lord Jesus Christ [be] with you all. Amen.”

  18. I see on re-reading my last post above that a little additional clarity is needed. The paragraph starting “Modern man has become” is rendered again below with a few ex
    Modern man has become fascinated with the term “unconditional love”. While the Lord offers salvation to the sinner in his sinful state, the Bible clearly teaches – from Genesis to Revelation – what He expects from us after He has made us new creatures. “Be not deceived; God is not mocked: for whatsoever a man soweth, that shall he also reap. For he that soweth to his flesh shall of the flesh reap corruption; but he that soweth to the Spirit shall of the Spirit reap life everlasting. And let us not be weary in well doing: for in due season we shall reap, if we faint not.” Gal 6:7-9. This is a Godly principle that never changes.

    • D~

      I’m sorry. I don’t know how I missed these two posts. I hope you have come back to check for responses.

      Thank you so much for your comments. You always bring a good perspective to this forum, and these posts do not disappoint. You have provided Scripture in context with logical explanations, and it is this combination that cannot be undone because that is exactly how we are to approach God’s Word.

      You know, once I started sharing my findings that true, born-again believers can lose their salvation, I was, and still am, shocked at the resistance to what is plainly written in Scripture, even by those in the denomination (Baptist) that I attend. They have, just as you have written, “become fascinated with the term ‘unconditional love.'” In fact, my church family and other Christian friends, except one, don’t even want to discuss it. They just cut me off with quotes about being chosen or God’s faithfulness or the fact that Jesus will never leave us or forsake us. Never do they quote anything that says, “if we continue in fleshly ways, we will die,” which you rightly have written is “a principle that’s to be found all through God’s Holy Word.”

      The part that I find really disturbing is that I am afraid that the idea that a believer cannot lose his or her salvation is the prevalent one held in the body of Christ today. I became quite discouraged about this, that not only do so many people believe it but that they don’t want to hear anything contrary to it. On one level, I do understand their reluctance because no one, especially pastors and teachers, wants to find out that what they have been feeding the flock is wrong, but it’s there regardless. In fact, in addition to it being there “from Genesis to Revelation” as you wrote, I think it is one of the most documented doctrines in the Bible.

      I did get a little discouraged awhile back, not only about people’s lack of knowledge but about their lack of concern to even find the truth and about some of the hostility that I have received from other believers. However, the Lord, and I praise Him for this, reminded me that He has me here for such a time as this, and I believe the same about you and the others who have looked to the whole counsel of God. I stand in agreement with you that “even one soul” will be blessed through what you have written, but even more so, let us pray that the seeds of truth being planted here will be sent out to be watered, and when God’s timing is right, a plentiful harvest will be reaped for His glory.

      God bless you richly this day and always as you seek His kingdom and His righteousness.

      Your sister in Christ~
      Barbara

      • Barbara, you need to get out of the Baptist Church and find yourself a Free Will Baptist Church. Their doctrins line up with yours. Blessings to you. Mike

  19. Barbara,

    We have had similar experiences to those you mention. My wife and I were part of the “Seventies Revival” – the post sixties era where young people – especially, were yearning for a real and deeper relationship with God – something more than they were finding in the churches. Both my wife and I were raised in ‘evangelical christian’ families. I had received Jesus Christ at a young age and gone through several ‘re-dedications’ of my life but lacked the power to really be an overcomer (Rev 2 and 3). Eventually, while in University, the godless lectures and false ideas left me unable to maintain even the pretense of being a Christian. A number of meaningless years followed before I met someone who was a spirit-fulled overcomer. Instantly, I wanted what this person had with God and it was just a matter of time before I came to know Jesus like I’d never known Him before and started fellow-shipping with a group of people who were seeking God similarly. I was baptized (again) and started devouring my Bible and posting ‘special scriptures’ up on my apartment walls.

    My wife to-be had already come into this group of fiery believers, having left behind the displeasing religious scene of which she’d been a part. After we married, our families, though active in the evangelical sphere, could not accept that we had found something wonderfully more than we’d had before. Both our families tried to break us down and so for our souls’ sake we had to separate from them .

    Much later in the late eighties and early nineties, we realized that our brethren of the seventies revival were growing spiritually distant from us. We saw things that were not right nor in accordance with the fear of the Lord and we ministered to them about the encroachment of the world in their lives. The result was that we found ourselves cast out and on our own. Since then we have walked on with God without them. Our sons, now adults, share our walk and we are never alone. He is wonderfully with us and blesses our lives and the work of our hands.

    Your soul is worth more than anything in this life. Mat 10:34-39 “Do not suppose that I have come to bring peace to the earth. I did not come to bring peace, but a sword. For I have come to turn “‘a man against his father, a daughter against her mother, a daughter-in-law against her mother-in-law–a man’s enemies will be the members of his own household.’ “Anyone who loves his father or mother more than me is not worthy of me; anyone who loves his son or daughter more than me is not worthy of me; and anyone who does not take his cross and follow me is not worthy of me. Whoever finds his life will lose it, and whoever loses his life for my sake will find it.” I’ve mentioned these things because you may need to similarly walk separately from those who trouble your walk and your soul.

    Although I trust our testimony is a blessing to others, this is probably not the forum for personal communications. We would enjoy somehow communicating with you further however.