Before reading this blog post, please be sure to read the introductory post.
“At that time the Feast of the Dedication took place at Jerusalem; 23 it was winter, and Jesus was walking in the temple in the portico of Solomon. 24 The Jews therefore gathered around Him, and were saying to Him, “How long will You keep us in suspense? If You are the Christ, tell us plainly.” 25 Jesus answered them, “I told you, and you do not believe; the works that I do in My Father’s name, these bear witness of Me. 26 “But you do not believe, because you are not of My sheep. 27 “My sheep hear My voice, and I know them, and they follow Me; 28 and I give eternal life to them, and they shall never perish (καὶ οὐ μὴ ἀπόλωνται εἰς τὸν αἰῶνα – kai ou mē apolōntai eis ton aiōna); and no one shall snatch them out of My hand. 29 “My Father, who has given them to Me, is greater than all; and no one is able to snatch them out of the Father’s hand. 30 “I and the Father are one” (John 10:22-30).
SALVATION: Its Eternality
This is one of the most important passages in the whole of Scripture in relation to our salvation in Christ and just what that means with regard to its eternality or its contingency. As this drama unfolds, we see Jesus attending the “Feast of Dedication” in Jerusalem, which was at winter, indicating this was the “Feast of Lights” referred to by Josephus in Antiquities 12.7.7. This “Festival” was the celebration of the forces of Judah Maccabee defeating the Syrian forces of Antiochus Epiphanes and cleansing the Temple on December 25, 164, and this is the celebration of Hanukkah today by Jews.
Thus, Jesus was indeed recognizing this important holiday and honoring its importance for Jewish heritage by even being there. However, for the Jewish leaders, the “Festival of Lights” was a perfunctory celebration in comparison to their deep concern about Jesus and the influence He was exerting among the populous. Therefore, the “Jews” are becoming increasingly impatient with Him and wanting Him to unequivocally declare to them, in no uncertain terms, whether or not He is the promised Messiah. Jesus responds with the following: “I told you, and you do not believe; the works that I do in My Father’s name, these bear witness of Me. But you do not believe, because you are not of My sheep.”
Why the Jewish Leaders Did Not Believe
As we move from the historical and contemporary setting in which this encounter with the “Jews” took place, we enter into what might be termed as a rather intense, theological setting that emerges from Jesus’ conversation with these “Jews,” and the first thing to notice from verses 25-26 above is that Jesus is telling the Jewish leaders that the reason they do not believe in Him as the promised Messiah is because they are not part of His “sheep.”
What does this mean?
How does Jesus know whether they are part of His “sheep” or not? Is He saying that those who are His “sheep” are the ones who believe?
Indeed, that is without question part of what He is saying because it is obvious that those who truly do believe in and accept Jesus as their Lord and Savior are His “sheep.” But Jesus is making this statement to these “Jews” in order to establish a very clear delineation between those who believe in Him and those who do not, and why those who believe in Him do believe, as the following verse explains: “My sheep hear My voice, and I know them, and they follow Me.” What is interesting in this verse is that each Greek verb is a present tense verb (e.g. “hear,” “know,” and “follow”), and in the Greek, it is the kind of action that is important and significant, versus the time of action in English and most other languages. Thus, in the present tense in Greek, the kind of action that is indicated is what is called linear or continuous action.
Continuous, ongoing salvation
In addition, as with all of the Greek tenses, the present tense has some varying emphases of linear or continuous action, but each varying emphasis has at its core the idea of an ongoing action of some type. In this particular verse, as you look at it in the context of the passage as a whole, it would appear, therefore, that this is what is called a “progressive present,” which simply emphasizes the fundamental meaning of the present tense, which is an ongoing and continuous action from the moment of inception of the action, whenever that may have occurred. Thus, Jesus is unequivocally stating that those who are His “sheep” are “continuously hearing His voice, and He continuously knows them, and they continuously follow Him.” The word for “know” in Greek used here is γινώσκω (ginōskō), and it means, among other things, “to understand and comprehend someone in a personal and intimate way, even to the extent of sexual relations between a man and a woman (e.g., Luke 1:34). Thus, Jesus is in a continuous and ongoing“personal and intimate relationship” with His “sheep.” This truth, in and of itself, is absolutely wonderful, but it doesn’t stop there, as we will see in verse 28.
(stay tuned for the next post in this series…)
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Previous posts in this series:
Sean Budde says
September 19, 2012 at 1:26 pmIt all sounds great, of course, but what about Hebrews 3:12 and the warning to not depart from God unto hardened unbelief? In Hebrews 10:22, there is a call to draw near unto God in full assurance of faith (the opposite of departing from God unto hardened unbelief)…then in verse 26, sinning “willfully” is spoken of. The context shows that rejecting Christ and His shed blood is in view (verse 29). Also, in Hebrews 3 and 10, the Greek word for “exhort” is found in both passages in the context of the heart. It seems to me, that exhorting one another keeps the hearts of the brethren from falling away unto hardened unbelief that rejects Christ and His blood. The “knowledge of the truth” in Hebrews 10:26, appears to be the gospel of Christ in relation to the New Covenant. Salvation is by grace, but that grace is through faith, which is apparently maintained by works? Like you said in the article…no faith = no knowing or hearing Christ = no following Him = not doing the will of the Father. Faith without works is dead. If we choose to satisfy our fleshly lusts and don’t abide in the Spirit…don’t follow Christ and don’t do good works, then does our faith eventually die when out hearts harden? Is this how salvation could be lost in a roundabout way? This is a big question i’ve been pondering lately. Not sure what to think about Hebrews 3 and 10? Can salvation be lost? Thanks.
Aaron says
September 19, 2012 at 2:21 pmSean, i am not an expert in theology but I have also explored the scriptures in this regard and in regard to the arguments from Hebrews that you outlined. In doing so, I myself have come to the conclusion that salvation ( when it is true salvation wrought by the Holy Spirit ) cannot be lost.
I don’t plan on making a theological rebuttal to the way that you are using the Hebrews verses but only suggest that you look more closely at the context of those verses in Hebrews. I would also humbly suggest that you consider whether or not the verses that you are applying in this way actually extend all the way to personal salvation ( or do they merely refer to the quality of our life in God?).
Finally I would consider the logical outworkings of the idea that faith is maintaied by works and salvation is secured by this kind of surviving faith. In the end, the resulting conclusion seems to be that our salvation does not rest solely the work of God but ( at least in part ) upon our own good doing. When we stand before the throne of God, and if ( hypothetically ) He askes us why we are fit to enter the kingdom of heaven, shall we point to our own doings? Our own “maintenance” of faith through works? Or shall we point to Christ and Christ alone and the work that HE achieved on the Cross and in our hearts through his Spirit. If we use these verses to conclude that salvation is maintained by our own good works, then we contradict a whole plethora of other scriptures that speak otherwise. In addition, in doing so, we declare in our hearts that God and God alone is not able to keep us from being “snatched from His hand”; rather WE need to work to keep this from happening. We are then back to “good old” works based salvation ( which some seem to be fine with ).
Then the personal question of “how much good works are required to maintain saving faith?” arises. Is Perfection required? 80% perfection? 75%? With this theological foundation in place under the feet of one that strives for personal honesty, there is little to be joyus about when it comes to salvation. such an unsure life is very sorrowful and actually threatens the real thing that saves us: Faith in the finished Work of Christ (and that it worked in saving us eternally).
I believe that when we look at the whole of Scripture, we find that God is that Author and perfecter of the faith that results in Salvation AND all that might be required to secure it eternally. If, per chance, it is true that our faith is somehow “maintained” by anything; the power to do said thing is found in God and God alone.
Phl 1:6 For I am confident of this very thing, that He who began a good work in you will perfect it until the day of Christ Jesus.
I believe that the apostles, reformers, and great men of faith, understood that there is a difference between living faith and dead faith also. Dead faith is that which is man-made and always results in moral infortitude. Living faith is living because it is wrought in God and results, infalibly and eventually, in “Good Works”. Yet if we say that “Good works” generates or maintains faith we are getting the cart before the horse. Faith without works is dead, not because works keeps faith alive, but because living faith results in works. Works are the sign of true faith because they always accompany one another.
Finally, i would check out the following blog post from Dr. Sam Storms for a direct treatment of the Hebrews verses:
http://www.enjoyinggodministries.com/article/hebrews-64-6/
Sean Budde says
September 20, 2012 at 2:15 amThanks for the reply, Aaron. One part of that article you linked to, hit home for me:
“Third, according to Hebrews 3:14 (and 3:6), ‘we have become partakers of Christ, if we hold fast the beginning of our assurance firm until the end.’ Note well: he says we ‘have become’ partakers of Christ, not ‘will become’ or ‘are now partakers,’ if we persevere in faith. In other words, holding fast in faith, i.e., persevering, proves that you became a partaker of Christ in the past. Failing to hold fast, i.e., apostatizing from the faith, proves that you never were a partaker of Christ. Apostasy or falling away (6:6a) doesn’t mean you once were in and have now fallen out of partaking in Christ. It means you never were or never became a partaker in the first place.”
I checked the YLT regarding Hebrews 3:14, and the tense does appear to read how the author said. This would indicate that salvation, once attained, can’t be lost. So, then, the warning against a hardened heart in verse 3:12, 13 would be to ensure one is truly believing and saved by grace, rather than to keep saved by doing good works to keep the heart from hardened unbelief, i guess.
Thanks…that was helpful, i think.
Sean Budde says
September 20, 2012 at 2:29 amp.s. I said “attained”, but that wasn’t a good descriptive word to use. “Received” is better, i suppose.
Barbara LeFevre says
September 21, 2012 at 1:54 pmAaron~
When the topic of losing one’s salvation comes up, many people respond as you have with the question, “how much good works are required to maintain saving faith?” This question is faulty because it is erroneously viewing ‘works’ as they are understood in regard to a person’s initial salvation as being the same ‘works’ as they are understood in regard to a person’s final, or eventual, salvation. Scripture is very clear that salvation is solely through God’s favor: “For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: [it is] the gift of God: Not of works, lest any man should boast” (Eph. 2:8-9). However, this is not to be interpreted to mean that human action has no place in salvation, and Scripture explains how it is to be understood, not only with our initial salvation but with our final salvation. With regard to our initial salvation, we know that because we are, by nature, sinners (Ps. 51:5), we cannot offer anything of worth to God for our salvation. Isaiah tells us, “But we are all as an unclean [thing], and all our righteousnesses [are] as filthy rags” (64:6a), “filthy” literally referring to that of menstruation, a filthy rag, a stained garment and figuratively referring to the best deeds of guilty people (iddah, Strong’s H5708). God’s attitude toward anything being offered to Him that is not holy and separated to Him is seen in Leviticus 10:1 wherein “Nadab and Abihu, the sons of Aaron, took either of them his censer, and put fire therein, and put incense thereon, and offered strange fire before the LORD, which he commanded them not.” “Strange,” or profane, fire was offered “as opposed to that which is upright, true, and lawful[;] strange is the same as unlawful…as opposed to the holy fire” (Gesenius’s Lexicon). God’s extreme displeasure of their actions is seen in verse 2: “And there went out fire from the LORD, and devoured them, and they died before the LORD.” What this means, then, is that before we are separated to God through a new spiritual birth (Jn. 3:3) we are, along with our works, profane, unlawful to God.
However, this doesn’t mean that we aren’t obligated or able to do something to be finally saved after we have been brought into the kingdom. As we are told in James 2:14-26, works are very much a part of our final salvation, so much so that the implied answer to the question posed in verse 14 is ‘no;” man’s faith alone cannot save him, and this is because it is the works that prove the validity of a person’s claim of faith. The difference is that they are not works to appease a righteous God so that He will save us (Eph. 2:9) but works that He does through us, according to Ephesians 2:10, which says, “For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them.” What we are to understand as the free gift of salvation is what takes place upon our surrender to God’s offer of salvation in Christ by faith, our born-again experience that delivers us from the kingdom of Satan into the kingdom of God. Our entrance into heaven is the final realization of the free gift if one continues to walk in faith, maturing and enduring to the end as the Bible teaches.
So, how are works to be understood in James 2? In this chapter, the word “dead” is cited four times, and each time it means “the death of the body,” “the faith that does not produce works” (nekros, Strong’s, G3498) as well as “destitute of life, without life, inanimate” (Thayer’s). These definitions are clearly speaking of something that is literally devoid of life whether in reference to the body or to the spirit. Clearly, then, works are very much associated with one’s final salvation because, as these definitions state, if there are no works, there is no (saving) faith because the two are inextricably linked together. That is why Christ says in Matthew 25:26 that those believers who do not do the works of Christ will “go away into everlasting punishment.” That is why He says in Revelation 3:15-16, “I know thy works, that thou art neither cold nor hot: I would thou wert cold or hot. So then because thou art lukewarm, and neither cold nor hot, I will spue thee out of my mouth.” Christ’s declaration, here, can hardly be viewed as the loss of reward but of salvation.
I hope that I have addressed your concerns.
Yours in Christ~
Barbara
Sean Budde says
September 19, 2012 at 1:57 pmp.s. Excuse me, salvation is by grace through faith. I misspoke.
Goh K Y says
September 19, 2012 at 3:18 pmMy sheep hears my voice…His sheep have the Holy Spirit as seal and He speaks to us so personally. But His sheep must also grow in maturity and make their calling and election sure…
2 Pet 1:10
The Lord asked Peter 3 times…Do you love Me?(Jn 21)
Each time, the Lord gave a clear instruction…Feed my lambs, tend my sheep, feed my sheep. Indeed the Lord had intended to raise His flock His way. He did not ask fisherman Peter to do something without equipping him. The revelation given to Peter…
Feeding His lambs…
1Pe 2:2
As newborn babes, desire the sincere milk of the word, that ye may grow thereby:
Lambs can grow spiritually only when they are fed with the pure milk of God. The malnourished lambs will be stunted and even die spiritually if they are not properly fed. Thank God for the ministry of BLB.
Pray for committed shepherds/mature sheep to do this role.
Tending His flock…
The Lord showed me a spiritual fence and this is anchored on His Word in RIGHT RELATIONSHIP
Relationship with God…1 Pet 2:5
Relationship with others…1 Pet 2:17
Relationship within the family…1 Pet 3:1-10
This fence will also keep out the enemy…2 Pet 2:1…false prophets and false teachers
If we operate within the spiritual fence of His Word, we will be under His cover and protection.
Pray for RIGHT RELATIONSHIP for all His sheep.
Feeding His sheep…
As the sheep mature, they must progress and this is addressed by Peter in 2 Pet 1. Peter addressed… to them that have obtained like precious faith with us through the righteousness of God and our Saviour Jesus Christ:
Divine power-divine life and godliness-divine nature
2Pe 1:3
According as his divine power hath given unto us all things that [pertain] unto life and godliness, through the knowledge of him that hath called us to glory and virtue:
2Pe 1:4
Whereby are given unto us exceeding great and precious promises: that by these ye might be partakers of the divine nature, having escaped the corruption that is in the world through lust
Peter elaborated in vs 5-7
Add to your faith
2Pe 1:5
And beside this, giving all diligence, add to your faith virtue; and to virtue knowledge;
2Pe 1:6
And to knowledge temperance; and to temperance patience; and to patience godliness;
2Pe 1:7
And to godliness brotherly kindness; and to brotherly kindness charity
He called it…these things… For if these things be in you, and abound, they make [you that ye shall] neither [be] barren nor unfruitful in the knowledge of our Lord Jesus Christ.
Not to have these things… But he that lacketh these things is blind, and cannot see afar off, and hath forgotten that he was purged from his old sins
Peter added… Wherefore the rather, brethren, give diligence to make your calling and election sure: for if ye do these things, ye shall never fall
Paul puts it another way in Eph 4:13… Till we all come in the unity of the faith, and of the knowledge of the Son of God, unto a perfect man, unto the measure of the stature of the fulness of Christ
Many of His sheep today stop at knowledge and did not go further. As a result, they are very critical of others and do not experience spiritual reality. His sheep must progress on and express Him as their life.
1Pe 2:21 For to this you have been called, because Christ also suffered for you, leaving you an example, so that you might follow in his steps
steve morrow says
September 19, 2012 at 10:21 pmActs 20:30
Also of your own selves shall men arise speaking perverse things
To draw away disciples after them
John 8:31
Then said JESUS to those Jews which believed on HIM
IF you continue in MY word then are you MY disciples indeed
Matthew 9:37
Then saith HE unto —HIS—disciples
The harvest in plenteous but the —LABOERS/WORKERS—are few
Matthew 9:38
Pray ye therefore the LORD of the harvest that HE will send
forth laborers/workers into HIS harvest
John 8:32
And you shall know the truth
And the truth shall make you free
John 18:37
Pilate therefore said unto HIM art thou a king then
JESUS answered –Thou sayest that I am a king
To this end was I born and for this cause
—CAME I INTO THE WORLD— (not only cause–to die also)
That I should bear witness unto the truth
—EVERY ONE THAT IS OF THE TRUTH HEARETH MY VOICE—
3 John 1:4
I have no greater joy than to hear that MY children walk in the truth
2 John 1:4
I rejoiced greatly that I found of thy children walking in truth
as we have received a commandment FROM THE FATHER
John 17:17
——-SANCTIFY THEM THROUGH THY TRUTH THY WORD IS TRUTH——-
***************************************************************
—–IS SALVATION WHAT GOD OUR FATHER AND HIS SON SAY IT IS—–
—————OR IS IT WHAT MAN WANTS IT TO BE—————–
****************************************************************
Proverbs 1:7 Coverdale Bible
The fear of the LORD is the beginning of wisdom
But fools despise wisdom and nurture
Proverbs 8:13 The Geneva Bible
The fear of the LORD —IS TO HATE EVIL–
As pride and arrogancy and the evil way and a mouth that
speaketh lewd things –I DO HATE–
Exodus 20:20
And Moses said unto the people
Fear not for GOD is come to PROVE YOU
and that—HIS FEAR MAY BE BEFORE YOUR FACES—
that you sin not
Isaiah 11:2
And the spirit of the LORD shall rest upon HIM
The spirit of wisdom and understanding
The spirit of counsel and might
The spirit of knowledge and of
—-THE FEAR OF THE LORD—-
2 Chronicles 19:9
And he charged them saying thus shall you do in
—THE FEAR OF THE LORD—faithfully and with a perfect heart
Acts 13:26 Geneva Bible
You men and brethren children of the generation of Abraham
————-AND WHOSOEVER AMONG YOU FEARETH GOD————–
TO YOU IS THE WORD OF THIS SALVATION SENT
Luke 23:40 The Bishops Bible
But the other answered and rebuked him saying
—FEAREST THOU NOT GOD—SEEING THOU ART IN THE SAME DAMNATION
Psalm 2:11
Serve the LORD with fear and rejoice with trembling
2 Corinthians 7:15
And HIS inward affection is more abundant toward you whilst
HE remembereth —THE OBEDIENCE—of you all how
—WITH FEAR AND TREMBLING YOU RECEIVED HIM—
Hebrews 5:9
AND BEING MADE PERFECT HE BECAME THE AUTHOR OF
—-ETERNAL SALVATION—-UNTO ALL THEM THAT OBEY HIM
Mark 8:35
For whosoever will save his life shall lose it
But whosoever shall lose his life for –MY SAKE AND THE GOSPELS–
the same shall save it
Colossians 1:23
—IF YOU CONTINUE—in the faith grounded and settled
and be not moved away from the hope of the —GOSPEL—
which you have heard and which was preached to every creature which is under heaven whereof I Paul am made a minister
1 Peter 4:17&18 NASB
For it is time for judgement to begin with the household of GOD
and if it begins with us first what will be the outcome of
those who do not—OBEY THE GOSPEL OF GOD—
(18)And if it is with difficulty that the righteous are is
—SAVED—what will become of the godless man and the sinner
Philippians 1:27 Coverdale Bible
Only let your conversation be as it becometh the gospel of CHRIST
That whether I come and see you or else be absent I may yet hear
of you —THAT YOU CONTINUE—in one spirit and one soul
—LABORING—as we do to —MAINTAIN THE FAITH OF THE GOSPEL—
Romans 5:1
Therefore being justified by faith we are at peace with GOD
through our LORD JESUS CHRIST
Acts 28:28 The Great Bible
Be it known therefore unto you that this salvation of GOD is sent the gentiles and they shall hear it
Acts 11:13&14
And he showed us how he had seen an angel in his house which stood and said unto him send men unto Joppa and call for
Simon whose surname is Peter
(14)Who shall tell thee words whereby thou and all thy house
SHALL BE SAVED
Isaiah 12:3
Therefore with joy shall you draw water out of the wells of
salvation
Jeremiah 2:13 Matthews Bible
For MY pepple hath done two evils they have forsaken ME the
well of the water of life and digged them pits yeh vile
and broken pits that hold no water
Psalm 119:155 Geneva Bible
Salvation is far from the wicked
Because they seek not thy statutes
Proverbs 4:4 Matthews Bible
He taught me also saying let thine heart receive my words
keep MY commandments —AND THOU SHALT LIVE—
Matthew 4:4 Tyndale Bible
He answered and said it is written man shall not live by bread
only but by —EVERY WORD— that proceedeth out of the mouth of GOD
John 6:68 The Bishops Bible
Then Simon Peter answered HIM LORD to who shall we go thou hast the words of —ETERNAL LIFE—
1 Peter 1:23 The Great Bible
For you are born anew not of mortal seed
But of immortal by the word of GOD
Which liveth and lasteth forever
Ephesians 2:8&9 The Geneva Bible
For by grace are saved through faith and that not of your selves
it is the gift of GOD
(9)not of works lest any man should boast —HIMSELF—
Psalm 33:10
For the word of the LORD is right
—ALL HIS WORKS ARE ARE DONE IN TRUTH—
Titus 2:11&12 Tyndale Bible
For the grace of GOD that —BRINGETH—salvation
unto all men hath appeared
(12)and—TEACHETH US—that we should deny ungodliness and worldly lusts and that we should live sober minded —
righteously—and godly—in this present world
Philippians 2:12 The Bishops Bible
Wherefore my dearly beloved as you have always obeyed
Not as in my presence only but now much more in my absence
WORK out your own salvation —WITH FEAR AND TREMBLING—
Psalm 119:81 The Great Bible
My soul hath longed for THY salvation
And I have a good hope because of THY word
Psalm 119:41 The Great Bible
Let thy loving mercy come also unto me O LORD
Even THY salvation according unto Thy word
So much to learn O LORD help us that we would be saved
Loving The LORD JESUS
Jerry S. says
September 20, 2012 at 8:59 amMat 7:21-23, “but he that doeth the will of my Father”
Scott L. says
September 20, 2012 at 9:04 amJesus Christ did not put a down-payment on my soul…He paid it all…’nuff said!
Stew says
October 3, 2012 at 10:37 amYes, you are saved by grace (out grace he paid the cost) through faith (you only have to recieve by continuing to believe and trust in Him). That Israel generation failed to prossess the promise after being saved and delivered from Egyption bondage because of unbelief (Hebrews).
Barbara LeFevre says
October 3, 2012 at 3:36 pmScott~
Of course He paid it all, but as the story of the Israelites prove in Stew’s post, they did not enter the Promised Land because of their unbelief. Read the warning in Hebrews 3:7-19. It plainly says that the same fate will befall us if we don’t continue to walk in faith.
Yours in Christ~
Barbara
Scott says
September 20, 2012 at 10:33 amPossibly a good study into Atonement, Propitiation, and Imputation or imputing , might be beneficial. We can understand then that salvation is TOTALLY of CHRIST or it includes our good works added too what Christ has done. Paul plainly defines our works are merely evidences of our faith. Prove our faith. When I stand before God I certainly do not what to stand in or upon my righteousness that is as filthy rags but rather in the righteousness of Christ His Son who died in my place and paid my sin debt IN FULL.. Have a blessed day! Pastor Scott….
steve morrow says
September 20, 2012 at 9:31 pmMatthew 5:6
Blessed are they which do hunger and thirst after
—RIGHTEOUSNESS— for they shall be filled
John 54-57 Matthews Bible
Whosoever eateth MY FLESH and drinketh MY BLOOD
—HATH ETERNAL LIFE—and I will raise HIM up
at the last day
(55)For MY FLESH is meat indeed and MY BLOOD is
drink indeed
(56) HE that eateth MY FLESH and drinketh MY BLOOD
dwells in ME and I IN HIM
(57)As the LIVING FATHER hath sent ME even so live
I by MY FATHER and HE that eateth ME SHALL LIVE BY ME
1 Corinthians 11:25
After the same manner also HE took the CUP when HE
had supped saying THIS CUP IS –THE NEW TESTAMENT– IN MY BLOOD THIS DO YE AS OFT AS YOU DRINK IT IN
REMEMBRANCE OF ME
Luke 22:20
Likewise also the CUP after supper saying
THIS CUP IS –THE NEW TESTAMENT– IN MY BLOOD WHICH IS SHED FOR YOU
Mark 10:39 The Bishops Bible
And they said unto HIM we can and JESUS said unto them you shall indeed —DRINK OF THE CUP—
that I drink of and with the baptism that I am
baptized withal shall you be baptized
Psalm 116:13
I will take the CUP of salvation
And call upon the name of the LORD
Tim says
September 20, 2012 at 4:52 pmI just have a question actually two. Can(1) and will(2) God turn his back on(or forsake)covenant people? Please give scriptural reference.
Jerry S. says
September 20, 2012 at 5:03 pmYou must define what do you mean by “turn HIS back”?
tim says
September 21, 2012 at 4:51 amturn His back or Forsake covenant people.
Jerry S. says
September 22, 2012 at 8:56 amThere is an agreement on a table and two parties sitting at the table facing the agreement and each other. Of the two, only one will never (emphatic negation) walk away from the table because that is their nature. The other can walk away and mostly does because that is their nature. I will leave it to you to discuss with the one who will never leave to know which party is which.
Scripture verse: Gen 15. Two of many things described come to my notice. 1) Blood must be shed (giving of a life) for the agreement to have force and once that is done it can never be undone (emphatic negation). 2) Only one entered into the agreement. The other enters in as a guest and has nothing to do other than believe because only the one who actually entered into the agreement as described here is faithful to keep it and that one who entered in knew it to be so as evidenced by the slumber described.
Summation: Selfishness. These discussions over “once saved, always saved”, as I see it, have that end. The only thing we can bring to the party is our testimony (how we have served the King of the Jews while alive) because all else that we think we own has in reality been given to us. This service, described in scripture as “jewels in our crowns” is then cast to the LORD, because in reality it was HE who was acting thru us because we are fast asleep. Mat 26, the ambassador slept and then scattered. Yeshua cut the agreement alone (Gen 15), because HE alone is faithful, we are not. …’nuff said!
J.
Barbara LeFevre says
September 23, 2012 at 4:19 amJerry~
With all due respect, I disagree with your comments. It is true that we can do nothing to glorify God save what He has done through us, but “how we have served the King of Jews while alive” is not all there is. Our testimony also includes what He has done IN us, how our inner man has become more like Christ by our crucifying our flesh and by our allowing Christ to crucify it. To say that “HE alone is faithful” but that “we are not” is to miss, entirely, the point of growing in the grace and knowledge of our Lord Jesus Christ. This is the whole point of our walk, to become faithful by being sanctified, by being cleansed of our former lusts. Yes, there are times of sleeping, but if they are the mark of one’s walk, then, as I have said, that person will lose his or her salvation because He is coming for a church without spot or wrinkle.
Also, I really don’t understand why you would say that these discussions on “once saved, always saved” are nothing more than “Selfishness,” given the fact that whether believers can lose their salvation is second in importance only to their salvation itself. Therefore, these discussions are very important. If a person believes that he cannot lose his salvation, and it turns out that the Bible supports this position, then nobody is worse for the wear, and all people who were born again will be with God. However, if it turns out that a person, who was truly born again according to Scripture, can lose his or her salvation, then it very much matters how all the verses are understood together because, then, many believers who thought they were ‘once-saved, always-saved’ are now standing before God in judgment rather than in salvation because they failed to interpret and act upon Scripture correctly.
Yours in Christ~
Barbara
Jerry S. says
September 23, 2012 at 9:30 amMat 6, Mat 6:25-34, Mat 6:34, anything else is religion. Act 26:14.
Barbara LeFevre says
September 23, 2012 at 10:25 amJerry~
While I appreciate your responding, I not really sure of the relevance of the verses you cited to what I wrote because I never stated nor implied anything about being anxious. If you explain how your verses apply to my thoughts, I will be glad to address them.
Thanks~
Barbara
Jerry S. says
September 23, 2012 at 2:03 pmCan’t help you there Barb.
Barbara LeFevre says
September 23, 2012 at 2:29 pmIf you can’t explain your claims, then how do you know they are true?
Jerry S. says
September 23, 2012 at 4:43 pmCan’t help you there either.
Dee B says
September 23, 2012 at 7:22 pmHi Jerry S.,
Chuckle, chuckle!
His,
Dee
steve morrow says
September 20, 2012 at 9:44 pmPsalm 25:10 The Great Bible
All the paths of the LORD are mercy and truth
Unto such —AS KEEP—HIS covenant and HIS
testimonies
2 Chronicles 15:2
And he went out to meet Asa and said unto him
Hear ye me Asa and all Judah and Benjamin the
LORD is with while you be with HIM and —IF—
you seek HIM HE will be found of you but–IF–
you forsake HIM HE will forsake you
2 Timothy 2:12
—IF—we suffer we shall also reign with HIM
—IF—we deny HIM HE also will deny us
Barbara LeFevre says
September 20, 2012 at 7:34 pmHad I known that this particular topic was going to be divided between two posts, I would have posted my comments here because it just seems that comments should naturally follow the end of a contributor’s offering to avoid any confusion of going back and forth between posts. I believe that Scripture very much supports the idea that believers can lose their salvation, and I give some general reasons as to why along with some other comments. My response is somewhat lengthy, so rather than reposting it here, I will just refer anyone who is interested to the “Preface and Introduction.”
Yours in Christ~
Barbara
steve morrow says
September 20, 2012 at 8:57 pmJeremiah 26:1&2
Woe unto the pastors that destroy and scatter the sheep of MY pasture SAITH THE LORD
(2)Therefore thus saith the LORD GOD of Israel against the pastors that feed MY people you have scattered MY flock and driven them away and have not visited them
Behold I will visit upon you the evil of your doings
Ezekiel 34:2
Son of man prophesy against the shepherds of Israel
prophesy and say unto them thus saith the LORD GOD unto shepherds
Woe be to the shepherds of Israel that do feed themselves
Should not the shepherds feed the flocks
Jeremiah 23:21
I have not sent these prophets yet they ran
I have not spoken to them yet they prophesied
Jeremiah 23:22
—BUT IF—they had stood in MY counsel
AND HAD CAUSED MY PEOPLE TO HEAR MY WORDS
Then they should have turned them from their evil way
and from the evil of their doings
*****************SALVATION GODS WAY CONTINUED****************
Psalm 50:23 The Great Bible
Whoso offereth ME thanks and praises he honoreth ME
and to him that —ORDERETH HIS CONVERSATION RIGHT—
will I show the salvation OF GOD
Philippians 3:20 The Bishops Bible
But our conversation is in heaven from whence also we look
for the savior THE LORD JESUS CHRIST
Psalm 37:14 The Geneva Bible
The wicked have drawn their sword and have bent their bow
to cast down the poor and needy and to slay such as be of upright conversation
Acts 26:25 The Bishops Bible
But he said I am not mad most noble Festus
But speak forth the words of truth and soberness
2 Thessalonians 2:10 The Geneva Bible
And in all deceiveableness of unrighteousness among them that perish because they received not the love of the truth that
they might be —SAVED—
John 5:34
But I receive not testimony from man
But these things I say that you might be —SAVED—
1 Timothy 4:16 The Great Bible
Take heed unto thyself —AND UNTO LEARNING—
—AND CONTINUE THEREIN—
—FOR IF THOU SHALT DO SO—
thou shalt–SAVE–thy self and them that hear thee
Psalm 67:1&2 The Bishops Bible
….The LORD be merciful unto us and bless us and cause
the light of HIS countenance to shine upon us SELAH
(2)That —THY WAY—may be known upon the earth
THE SALVATION AMONG ALL NATIONS
Proverbs 8:8
ALL THE WORDS OF MY MOUTH ARE IN RIGHTEOUSNESS
Their is nothing froward or perverse in them
Proverbs 8:20
I lead in—THE WAY OF RIGHTEOUSNESS—
in the midst of the paths of judgement
Luke 6:46 The Bishops Bible
Why call you ME LORD LORD
And do not as I bid you
John 14:15
—IF—YOU LOVE ME KEEP MY COMMANDMENTS
LOVING THE LORD
Dee B says
September 21, 2012 at 10:47 amGod is not a liar! He has promised eternal life since before the world began. (1 John 2:25; Titus 1:2) If you are one of those given to Jesus by Father God, you will be given or already have the gift of eternal life by the grace of God. This includes elect Gentiles as part of the New Covenant promise. (John 17:2 KJV; Acts 13:48 KJV)
The Eternal God has placed eternal life in His Son, Jesus the Messiah. (John 5:39-40 KJV; John 6:40; 6:47; 6:54 KJV; 1 John 5:11 KJV) Thank you Lord that no man can get to it! Jesus promises that if you receive eternal life from Him, you will never lose it–not you might lose it–but never lose it! (John 10:28 KJV). Born by God saints are not going to GET eternal life; saints already HAVE eternal life NOW, while here on earth, just like all the other spiritual blessings! (John 17:3 KJV; Eph 1:3 KJV) It takes faith from God to know the truth of having received everlasting, eternal life, just like receiving anything from God, and it takes the Holy Spirit to work it through until each one goes home; but it will be completed no matter the problems in the chosen person’s life. (Hebrews 11:1-3 KJV, Ephesians 2:10 KJV, Romans 8:28-31 KJV)
This is just what some of the scriptures say about eternal life (not about a doctrine of eternal security). If words mean anything, the scripture is very clear. There is no ambiguity. Peter said Jesus had the words of eternal life and he wasn’t talking about the words printed in red in the christian bible. He was talking about the Living Spirit Word, which is how any believer is born again (John 6:63; Romans 8:10 KJV). We either believe what the scripture says or we don’t.
Eternal life is spiritual, not soulish. If you receive Jesus by the faith given to you by God, a new human spirit is created (2 Cor 5:17-18). We become a new type of human being made after the image of the last Adam Jesus the Messiah, birthed by an incorruptible seed which is placed there by God (1 Cor 15:45 KJV; 1 Peter 1:23 KJV). When we receive the Holy Spirit into that newly quickened human spirit, however and whenever He is given after the new birth, (see Acts 8:14-17; 19:1-7, for examples), we are sealed (2 Cor 1:22; Eph 1:13; 4:30 KJV)
This is what the scripture teaches concerning eternal life. Very basic and foundational. That is not a man’s doctrine or of private interpretation. People can fight over these clear words of scripture, reinterpret them, or find scriptures to refute them, but why do that? Hurray, Yippee for eternal life!! It is a waste of time to argue about who could be “saved”, or might potentially be given eternal life. Trying to figure out the mysteries of God beyond what He has already revealed is a vain, carnal exercise leading to error. Humans don’t want God and can’t choose Him of themselves. There are too many scriptures that show that truth! Father God clearly tells us that giving eternal life is His business. (Rev 3:5 KJV)
Exd 32:32-33 And the LORD said unto Moses, Whosoever hath sinned against me, him will I blot out of my book.
To sum up what I understand from these scriptures: The bottom line is that God promised eternal life through His Son Jesus, to as many as Father God ordained, and sovereignly decided, would receive Jesus and be born again, from above. (John 1:12-13 KJV) And Jesus hasn’t, and will not, lose any of us but one, as the scripture said. We can trust Him with our Life! His ordained group includes anyone actually called right up to this day and those who will be called out through the preaching of the good news of Jesus (John 17:20-21, Roman 1:16; KJV)–not potentially, but actually. Who are they? Thank God, only He knows. We just have to obey the leading of the Holy Spirit to preach the good news of Jesus’ righteousness by God’s grace. (Acts 8 KJV)
If anyone could lose eternal life, according to Jehovah God’s words quoted (Ex 32:33), that person didn’t have it in the first place. God is sovereign!
Faithfully His,
Dee
`steve morrow says
September 22, 2012 at 8:08 pmRomans 10:2
For I bear them record that they have a zeal for GOD
BUT NOT ACCORDING TO KNOWLEDGE
Acts 17:11
These were more noble than those in Thessalonica in
that they received the word with ALL readiness of
mind and searched the scriptures daily whether those
things were so
2 Timothy 3:16
—ALL SCRIPTURE— is given by inspiration of–GOD–
and is profitable —for doctrine—for reproof—
—-FOR CORRECTION—-for instruction in righteousness
1 Timothy 2:11
Let the woman learn in silence with all subjection
1 Timothy2:12
But I suffer not a woman to teach nor to usurp
authority over the man —BUT TO BE IN SILENCE—
Mark 7:6
HE answered and said unto them
well hath Isaiah prophesied —OF YOU HYPOCRITES—
as it is written
THIS PEOPLE HONORETH ME WITH THEIR LIPS BUT THEIR HEART IS FAR FROM ME
Mark 7:7
HOWBEIT IN VAIN DO THEY WORSHIP ME TEACHING FOR DOCTRINES THE COMMANDMENTS OF MEN
Hebrews 2:2
Therefore we ought to give the more earnest heed to the things which we have heard lest at any time we should let them slip
Psalm 10:3
For the wicked boasteth of his hearts desire
And blesseth the covetous whom the LORD abboreth
Psalm 11:2
For lo the wicked bend their bow they make ready
their arrow upon the string that they may privily
shoot at the upright in heart
Psalm 15:1&2
LORD who shall abide in THY tabernacle
Who shall dwell in THY holy hill
(2)HE THAT WALKETH —UPRIGHTLY—AND WORKETH
RIGHTEOUSNESS—AND SPEAKETH TRUTH IN HIS HEART
Luke 8:21
And HE answered and said unto them
MY MOTHER AND MY BRETHREN ARE THESE WHICH HEAR THE WORD OF GOD AND DO IT
John 14:15
—IF—YOU LOVE ME KEEP MY COMMANDMENTS
O LORD I’M ASTOUNDED AT THE MULTITUDE THAT THINK
THEY CAN DO THINGS THEIR WAY AND STILL CLAIM SALVATION—I PRAY AND ASK YOU LORD THAT THIS WOULD NOT BE SO AND THAT THESE FALSE TEACHINGS WOULD CEASE IN YOUR NAME JESUS I ASK
Psalm 119:155
SALVATION IS FAR FROM THE WICKED FOR THEY SEEK NOT THY STATUTES
LOVING THE LORD JESUS
caroline says
September 29, 2012 at 4:52 pmRegarding Exodus 32:33, the names had to be in the book in order for them to be blotted out, that is removed from it, so surely they must have been given eternal life initially for their names to have been in the book in the first place
caroline says
September 29, 2012 at 4:54 pmPS I meant to post the above in reply to Dee
Barbara LeFevre says
September 30, 2012 at 3:46 amCaroline~
I agree with you. Revelation 3:5 says, “He that overcometh, the same shall be clothed in white raiment; and I will not blot out his name out of the book of life, but I will confess his name before my Father, and before his angels.” Obviously, someone’s name cannot be taken away unless it was there to begin with. God is, indeed, sovereign, and His sovereignty has always allowed for people to either accept Him or reject Him, regardless of whether they are saved or not. Also, Jesus’ warnings to the other six churches in Asia, which are all believing churches, demonstrate that what churches (or people) will lose if they do not repent and overcome is something related to salvation, not rewards.
Yours in Christ~
Barbara
Dee B says
October 2, 2012 at 4:30 amHello Caroline,
I confess that I don’t know most of the mysteries of God, only the ones He reveals to me. And He has revealed to my spirit and my mind, Who Jesus is and His absolute faithfulness in everything, including my eternal “salvation”, (not “eternal security”). God has revealed this wonderful comfort to me by His Spirit and through His Word, by the faith He has given me. He has shown me that salvation, Life, eternal life, is in Jesus, never to be repented of.
Caroline, I believe God, not you or anyone else who cannot trust in the character of God. If you can’t trust Jesus for your Life, then there is not basis for trust in Him at all. The “ifs” of God will never happen to me, or one who is chosen for Life, because that Life will never be repented of by God.
If that is not good enough for you and other people, then the God kind of faith is not in you; unbelief is there, and unbelief will bring eternal death. I will continue to pray that you, and those people walking in unbelief, will hear the Holy Spirit, repent, if it be God’s will for you, and receive revelation from Father God of that kind of salvation in Jesus the Messiah.
Thanks for your comment. I am not returning to this page for comment. I am moving on to another page.
Grace, Peace and Life is in Jesus!
Dee
Barbara LeFevre says
October 2, 2012 at 9:04 amDee~
Well, in case you do return to this page, perhaps you can address my comments to your accusations because I’m sure you’ve read them.
Barbara
Tim says
September 21, 2012 at 1:40 pmSo if we forsake him he will forsake us!
Barbara LeFevre says
September 21, 2012 at 2:28 pmTim~
That is exactly right. We are in a covenant relationship. Each party must uphold specific stipulations for the covenant to stay intact. If a person forsakes God, either through apathy or rebellion, why on Earth would God give him or her eternal life? That is just illogical.
When discussing this topic, there are three words that needs to guide your study: reconcile, reconcile, reconcile. If you seek to find the truth for this or any topic by proof texting, you will never find the truth.
Also, I’ve seen far too many people, my pastor included, who study this topic through a filter of eternal security, meaning that their interpretation of Scripture will never allow for a believer to lose his or her salvation. This is not how we are to study the Word.
Some of the easiest verses to understand about losing one’s salvation are the “if” verses, showing that our final salvation is conditional. Rather than repost them here, read my comments to Sean on the “Preface and Introduction” link right above the Justin Alfred block at the top.
Also, are you Tim of ‘Tim and Penny’? If you are, you will remember our discussion on the seven churches in Asia. 🙂 Here is a little more information:
In the Book of Revelation, Jesus Christ Himself reveals some of the most compelling verses in the Bible to support the idea that one can, indeed, lose his or her salvation. In the summation of each of these seven letters, all written to believing churches, a consequence is written in either the positive or the negative, and each one is based upon the condition that the church “repent” and “overcometh” something. According to Strong’s Concordance, for a person (or church) to overcome, it means to emerge victorious by holding fast to his faith, even unto death, against the power of foes, temptations, and persecutions (nikao, G3529). What Jesus is telling each church, except Philadelphia, is that it needs to “repent” from a particular sin and that all churches are to “overcometh” something, which would refer to the flesh and the world. As you study, please note that the outcome of each church’s response to Jesus’ criticism and call to repent and to overcome is a specific aspect of salvation, not of reward.
~The loveless church in Ephesus must repent and overcome, or it will have its lamp stand removed.
~The persecuted church in Smyrna must repent and overcome, or it will be hurt by the second death.
~The compromising church in Pergamos must repent and overcome so that it will receive hidden manna and white stone.
~The corrupt church in Thyatira must repent and overcome, or it won’t receive the power given to all of the saved.
~The dead church in Sardis must repent and overcome, or it will have its name blotted out of the Book of Life.
~The faithful church in Philadelphia must overcome, or it won’t become a part of God’s holy city.
~The lukewarm church in Laodicea must repent and overcome, or it will not wear garments of salvation.
I would really like you opinion on these examples. Thanks!
Barbara
Barbara LeFevre says
September 21, 2012 at 2:31 pmSorry, Tim! As I was reading your post, I put a question mark at the end of your comment rather than a period, which would, obviously, change the purpose of your comment. Please forgive me.
Barbara
Dee B says
September 22, 2012 at 8:18 amHi Tim,
Fortunately for humans, we only learn God’s truth, who He is and His intentions, purposes and plans by revelation (Mat 16:15-17 KJV). If you have truly been born from above, born again by God, then these verses (1 Corinthians 2:12-14) bring light and understanding to you by the Holy Spirit! Man can never learn any of God’s intention by studying the word of God. The Greek meaning underlying the word “study” Strongs G4704) in 1 Tim 2:15 does not mean academic studying. It means “to exert one’s self, endeavour, give diligence”, in all areas of the live of a believer. It is used this way 12 times in all 11 verses. Research this out for yourself.
Is it good to read Yes, because Jesus tells us that they point to Him who is the One we receive life from (John 5:39-40 KJV). And Jesus and the Holy Spirit tell us they are good to get in our minds, why the scriptures were preserved by God (Mark 12:24 KJV; 2Tim 3:15 KJV; and 2 Tim 3:16 KJV), but only God, by His power, can give us light on them.
Now I say all this to show that receiving eternal life from God is also by revelation. It is God’s gift of Christ’s righteousness that makes us acceptable with God. And we receive that gift of eternal life in Christ by faith. We are not under the Old covenant as the nation of Israel was with God,(and has been taught since the 1st century of believers and for 1900 centuries in the christian religion. The old covenant said that if you do all the blessings of God, you will get none of the curses. and God will keep you.
Saints are now under a New Covenant in Jesus. That covenant was promised in the scriptures to the nation of Israel (Jer 31) and fulfilled by Jesus. Father God has revealed to us that He gives us the gift of Life so He can have an eternal relationship with children made in the image of His beloved Son, Jesus. If He has truly done this in His child, He doesn’t take it back! Just like with the nation of Israel who He promised salvation, and they received it through Christ, a New Covenant (Jer 31:31-33 KJV; Hebrews 12:24 KJV; Ezekiel 37:26-27 KJV). Saints of God who are in Jesus,(which includes born again gentiles who have been grafted in to the grace poured out on Israel, Romans 11:25 KJV) are under now the New Covenant also which is based on receiving God’s gift of eternal life by faith in what God did through His Beloved Son. Only God can reveal to you that you have His precious gift. You can not earn this gift by keeping any law or commandment or by doing any behavior–any works.
Tim, I say all this to you not because you may not know it, but to exhort and edify you in the truth of the grace of God. The Holy Spirit warns us to not allow our “minds” (the seat of man’s logic and reasoning), to be swayed, by men (or women), from the simplicity which is in Jesus (2 Corinthians 1:12 KJV). He compares this being swayed to the seduction by Satan of corrupting the mind of Eve (2 Corinthians 11:3 KJV). If you have received the faith of Jesus, don’t allow your mind to be corrupted against the simple truth that God made you and any one of His children, Jew or gentile, acceptable in the Beloved (Ephesians 1:6 KJV). If He has revealed to you that you have eternal life in Jesus, don’t make yourself a reprobate in your mind and refute or frustrate the grace of God (Hebrew 10:26 KJV; Galatians 2:21) Read all of Galatians 2:14-21 KJV)
Walk and live in the Grace of God,
Dee
Barbara LeFevre says
September 23, 2012 at 11:54 amDee~
You wrote, “The Greek meaning underlying the word “study” Strongs G4704) in 1 Tim 2:15 does not mean academic studying. It means “to exert one’s self, endeavour, give diligence”, in all areas of the live of a believer.” First, I know it was just a typo, but the verse is II Timothy 2:15. Secondly, while the word “study” means what you have written, that is just a general definition. In “Strong’s Exhaustive Concordance,” the specific meanings are given:
(1) “was forward” in Gal. 2:10, of remembering the poor
(2) “endeavoring”
(2a) in Eph. 4:3, of keeping the unity of the Spirit
(2b) in 1 Th. 2:17, of going to see friends, …
(2c) in 2 Pet. 1:15, of enabling believers to call Scripture truth to remembrance…
(3) “do thy diligence” in 2 Ti 4:9, 4:21
(4) [For some reason, there is no number 4 listed]
(5) “study” in 2 Ti 2:15
(6) “be diligent”
(6a) in Titus 3:12
(6b) in 2 Pet. 3:14, of being found in peace without fault and blameless, when the Lord comes
(7) “let us labor”
(7a) in Heb. 4:11, of keeping continuous Sabbath rest
(7b) in 2 Pet. 1:10, of making our calling and election sure.
As you can see, the specific meaning of the word “spoudazō” (Strong’s G4704) is dependent upon its context, and in point 5, it means that in order to “rightly [divide] the word of truth,” we must “study.” Of course, it is the Holy Spirit that will “guide us into all truth” (Jn. 16:13), but we still need to do our part.
Barbara
Tim says
September 21, 2012 at 2:12 pmSo if we forsake him he will forsake us! There is your answer to eternal security. It’s a choice. In Christ you are Secure forake him and you are lost.
God Bless
Dee B says
September 22, 2012 at 8:45 amTim,
Here’s what God says about the righteous, which you can only be by Jesus’ righteousness: Psalm 55:22 KJV; Proverbs 10:30 KJV
The writer of Hebrews interpreted for us what the Almighty God said to Abraham in Genesis: (Gen 28:14-15 KJV) and gentiles are included in verse 15. Yippee!
Hbr 13:5 KJV: [Let your] conversation [be] without covetousness; [and be] content with such things as ye have: for he hath said, I will never leave thee, nor forsake thee.
God’s grace has nothing to do with whether you forsake Him or not, IT IS A GIFT. Believe God, when He says “never”, He means never, not “maybe if you do thus and so”.
Jhn 11:26 And whosoever liveth and believeth in me shall never die. Believest thou this?
In God’s Forever,
Dee
tim says
September 21, 2012 at 4:43 pmThanks Barbara
You are right on with the “if” statements and the examples of the 7 churches Christ described in Revelation.
God Bless
tim says
September 21, 2012 at 4:49 pmSorry Barbara Not the tim of “Tim and Penny” but have really enjoyed your comments.
God Bless
Barbara LeFevre says
September 21, 2012 at 5:30 pmThanks, and I yours, although I seem to be a little slow picking up on your intent!!
God bless you, too!
Tim says
September 22, 2012 at 5:22 pmSo Dee b
When the writer of Hebrews 13:5 wrote that or “quoted” that. Who and where was he quoting it from?
Dee B says
September 23, 2012 at 5:05 amHey Tim!
Here is your answer regarding Hebrews 13:5 KJV. This is what I wrote in the comment that you refer to. I will just repeat it here:
“The writer of Hebrews interpreted for us what the Almighty God said to Abraham in Genesis: (Gen 28:14-15 KJV) and gentiles are included in verse 15. Yippee!”
Walk and Live is God’s Grace. Jesus is Lord!
Dee
tim says
September 23, 2012 at 6:14 amGood morning Dee
I don’t want interpretation. Please give me quotation who and where.
God Bless.
Dee B says
September 23, 2012 at 10:09 amHi again Tim,
Please read the comment! It gives you scripture of who and where it can be found. Okay, maybe I’ll just write out the scripture rather than have you refer to the link in the comment. The scripture, in the comment, was Genesis 28:14-15.
Here it is:
Gen 28:14 And thy seed shall be as the dust of the earth, and thou shalt spread abroad to the west, and to the east, and to the north, and to the south: and in thee and in thy seed shall all the families of the earth be blessed.
Gen 28:15 And, behold, I [am] with thee, and will keep thee in all [places] whither thou goest, and will bring thee again into this land; for I will not leave thee, until I have done [that] which I have spoken to thee of.
I have copied it in the KJV but you can look at it in any translation you feel comfortable with.
As I said, Hebrews 13:5, given by the Holy Spirit to the writer of Hebrews, gives us God’s thought, His intention, of what He said to Abraham. This is not man’s interpretation! Unless you “think” it is.
I hope this helps or gives you what you are looking for.
Grace and peace is in Jesus Messiah,
Dee
Dee B says
September 23, 2012 at 10:40 amAlso Tim,
The Hebrew word translated “leave” in Genesis 28:15, also means “forsake” and is used in the Old Testament 129 times as forsake, and 72 times as leave. That explains why the Hebrews writer said “never leave nor forsake”. Even though in the Greek, two different words are translated, they both words relate to not utterly leaving but forever in an eternal way. Hence, the writer’s emphatic repeating.
I know this truth not because I “studied” it, but because the Holy Spirit has come and has led me into this understanding of God’s eternal truth (John 16:13 KJV), and gave me the faith to believe it!
John 16:13: Howbeit when he, the Spirit of truth, is come, he will guide you into all truth: for he shall not speak of himself; but whatsoever he shall hear, [that] shall he speak: and he will shew you things to come.
How blessed we are to be born from above so we can know the things OF GOD, not the enticing words of man’s wisdom, logic or interpretation, that are freely given.
1Cr 2:12 Now we have received, not the spirit of the world, but the spirit which is of God; that we might know the things that are freely given to us of God.
Jesus the Messiah is Lord!
In God’s foever,
Dee
Barbara LeFevre says
September 23, 2012 at 1:00 pmDee,
You are absolutely right. God will never “leave” us or “forsake” us, but what do you do with the numerous verses that speak of believers leaving and forsaking God? Shouldn’t they also be included when formulating doctrine? For example, what do you do with just the two examples that I gave, the “if” verses that I posted for Sean on the introductory page and the verses in Revelation about the seven churches in Asia that I posted for Tim on this page? If I am wrong, then please tell me what the meanings of them are.
In addition, I posted, or attempted to post, the following comments on September 22 at 8:18, but it never came up, so I am posting it here:
You wrote, “Saints are now under a New Covenant in Jesus.” The covenant that one is under is irrelevant as to whether believers can lose their salvation. Just two of the many verses that support this are Romans 11:21-22, which say, “For if God spared not the natural branches, [take heed] lest he also spare not thee. Behold therefore the goodness and severity of God: on them which fell, severity; but toward thee, goodness, if thou continue in [his] goodness: otherwise thou also shalt be cut off.” In other words, just as God “cut off” some of His first covenant people, the “natural branches,” so He will also “cut off” some of His second covenant people, “thee.”
You wrote, “If He has truly done this [given the “gift of life”] in His child, He doesn’t take it back!” Well, if you mean that God is faithful to His part of the covenant, that He won’t renege on the stipulations that He agreed to uphold, you are right. However, if you are saying that His covenant people cannot be unfaithful to their part in the covenant, Scripture does not support this idea. I am sure that you would agree that we are not to proof text to formulate doctrine, so when all relevant verses are included in the discussion, rather than just the ones that declare God’s faithfulness, it is entirely clear that believers can lose their salvation. I’ve given an explanation in the “Preface and Introduction” as to how the relevant verses on both sides of the argument can be reconciled to find God’s truth if you want to read it.
Finally, today you wrote, “I know this truth not because I “studied” it, but because the Holy Spirit has come and has led me into this understanding of God’s eternal truth (John 16:13 KJV), and gave me the faith to believe it!” If this is true, then why have you spent so much time and effort telling everyone what the “understanding of God’s eternal truth” is with regard to eternal security and other issues? I mean, if a believer cannot receive the truth because they have personally “studied” God’s Word, then I certainly don’t understand what makes you think that they are to receive it from you. Shouldn’t you just be leaving it up to the Holy Spirit?
Barbara
Dee B says
September 23, 2012 at 4:25 pmBarbara,
I do not speak about eternal security, other than to reject it, because, as I said, I did not see it in the scriptures. Even the author used creeds from different religious groups to define it. It appears to be a man made doctrine. I only taught and do teach the scriptural word on eternal Life.
You may not like the fact that I confess that I receive revelation from the Living God as one of God’s born from above believers, but I do. This blog is just one forum for obeying the Spirit of God and the word He gave to me:
2Ti 4:2 Preach the word; be instant in season, out of season; reprove, rebuke, exhort with all longsuffering and doctrine.
Notice the activities include doctrine; the doctrine of God, not man’s. I don’t formulate doctrine, as you say. I just believe what God has already said as He leads me into His truth. Rightly dividing the word means knowing who He is talking to and how what He says relates to His perspective, plan and purpose. I trust Him to give me that, no matter what has happened to me. I don’t preach or teach behind pulpits in “churches”, because the Spirit of God has revealed to me that He does not want me to do that, even though I have had opportunities.
I am not in competition with you; I just have a different perspective of the scriptures than you have. Maybe instead of your spiteful snarking at me you could pray about how God is using this blog according to what that verse tells us to do, and Ephesians 4 on training up saints. There are new babes viewing these blogs!
You are not going to change what I KNOW from
God or what He leads me to teach. Where I am not speaking in the wisdom of God, He will tell me as He uses people writing and speaking the word of God to do it. In fact, He told me right here on this blog, where I got a huge revelation concerning His eternal Love for the nation of Israel, that has made me free! He has rebuked my worldly, carnal perspective and I have now embraced His. I don’t know how long it would have taken me to hear Him and repudiate Christian Replacement Theology if I were not directed here! It is Life changing for me and others who receive it.
If you get your Life from Jesus, you have eternal life. If you get it from something else, you will perish. There are the “ifs” of God. I believe that to try to dig deeper than that to “formulate” doctrine is vain and will cause babes and not-so-babes to be corrupted in their minds, rather than learning to walk by faith.
Either God’s word is true or it isn’t.
Can you rejoice in that?
His,
Dee
steve morrow says
September 23, 2012 at 8:12 amGenesis 26:3
Sojourn in this land and I will be with you
For unto thee and unto thy seed I will give all these countries and I will perform the oath which I sware unto Abraham thy father
Genesis 26:4&5
And I will make thy seed to multiply as the stars of heaven and will give unto thy seed all these countries and in thy seed shall
all the nations of the earth be blessed
(5)—-BECAUSE—-THAT ABRAHAM OBEYED MY VOICE AND KEPT MY CHARGE
MY COMMANDMENTS — MY STATUTES — AND MY LAWS —
Psalm 119:155
—SALVATION— is far from the wicked
For they seek not thy statutes
Psalm 119:80
Let my heart be sound in THY statutes that I be not ashamed
Psalm 119:118
Thou hast trodden down —ALL— them that err from THY
statutes —FOR THEIR DECEIT IS FALSEHOOD—
Psalm 145:20
THE LORD —preserveth—all them that love HIM
BUT ALL THE WICKED HE WILL DESTROY
Ezekiel 33:15
If the wicked restore the pledge give again that he had robbed
WALK IN THE STATUTES OF LIFE WITHOUT COMMITTING INIQUITY
—HE SHALL SURELY LIVE HE SHALL NOT DIE—
Isaiah 26:10
Though grace is shown to the wicked
They do not learn righteousness even in a land of uprightness
they go on doing evil and regard not the majesty of the LORD
Titus 2:11&12
For the grace of GOD that bringeth salvation hath appeared to all men
(12)Teaching us that denying ungodliness and worldly lusts we
should live —SOBERLY—RIGHTEOUSLY—AND GODLY—
IN THIS PRESENT WORLD
John 8:39
They answered and said unto HIM Abraham is our father
JESUS saith unto them —IF—you were Abrahams chidren
—YOU WOULD DO THE WORKS OF ABRAHAM—
James 2:23
And the scripture was fulfilled which saith
ABRAHAM BELIEVED GOD AND IT WAS IMPUTED UNTO HIM FOR RIGHTEOUSNESS—-AND HE WAS CALLED THE FRIEND OF GOD—
John 15:14
—YOU— are MY friends —IF—you do whatsoever I command you
James 4:4
You adulterers and adulteresses know you not that the friendship of the world is enmity with GOD
Whosoever therefore will be a friend of the world is the enemy
of GOD
1 John 3:10
In this the children of GOD are manifest and the children of the devil whosoever doeth not righteousness is not of GOD neither he
that loveth not his brother
Proverbs 8:8
All the words of —MY MOUTH—are in righteousness
There is nothing froward or perverse in them
Proverbs 8:20
I lead in the way of righteousness
in the midst of the paths of judgement
LOVING THE LORD JESUS
Tim says
September 23, 2012 at 12:58 pmDee B
Sorry but you used the word interpretation. But either way the quote came from Mose in
Deu 31:6
Be strong and courageous. Do not be afraid or terrified because of them, for the LORD your God goes with you; he will never leave you nor forsake you.”
Now read down a few verses to vs.16 and see what the LORD said about leaving and forsaking. And certainly the LORD does not change HE is the same yesterday, TODAY and FOREVER MORE.
So if we forsake him he will forsake us! There is your answer to eternal security. It’s a choice. In Christ you are Secure forsake him and you are lost.
Without logic, without indoctrination, without interpretation, without contradiction of the WORD. Because we could give you many scriptures about departing the faith, shipwreck faith, (basically Apostasy). No eisegesis of the text. ITS CLEAR.
Thank You and
God Bless
Barbara LeFevre says
September 23, 2012 at 3:29 pmExactly.
Tim says
September 23, 2012 at 1:11 pmsorry Moses lol
Dee B says
September 23, 2012 at 6:05 pmTim,
The scriptures also say that in Joshua 1:5, and depending on the translation, it will use a different word also. And God says in all cases He will not forsake. But to rightly divide this word, we must consider who was talking to Abraham and who Moses, speaking for God, was talking to in the wilderness, as well as what God, speaking to Joshua, was talking about.
God was speaking to Abraham about the creation of a nation of people under him, sovereignly chosen by Himself, who would bless all peoples of the world. The Mosaic law was not in play yet. Abraham was walking by faith. He believed God and it was counted unto him by God for righteousness.
Moses was talking to that nation who could not ever be perfect under the laws of the Old Covenant because of the wickedness in the flesh of fallen humanity; hence blessings, cursings and sacrifices to keep God’s wrath from consuming the nation. God was talking to Joshua to encourage him to lead the nation to physically possess the land He had promised to Abraham (God keeps His promises), because Joshua showed he believed God as well (spied out the land with Caleb and brought back a good report). Yes, most of the Jews perished over the millennium for unbelief and idolatry, and were eventually scattered, but God had promised Abraham (and Isaac and Jacob who also believed God), that He would redeem His chosen people Israel for the fathers’ sake, bring them back into promised land, and cause them to bless the world. That redemption has happened in Jesus the Messiah who was produced through that wicked nation of Israel. Because of His promises, God got rid of the Old Covenant and established a New Covenant built on better promises, because He can do that! (Hebrews 8:6 KJV)
The writer of Hebrews, moved by the Holy Spirit to speak to Jewish believers to reassure and edify them, and also gentile believers, is interpreting the spiritual reality of how Jesus is the mediator of the New Covenant. He is also relating how God is faithful to His promise to the Hebrew fathers, and prophesies given by the Prophets Ezekiel, Isaiah, Jeremiah, Hosea, Daniel, Malachi, Zechariah, etc.; promises never forsake the nation of Israel, but to redeem the nation of Israel and bless the gentiles by bringing us into the New Covenant.
That is not a contrived interpretation. The Holy Spirit is telling us what the connection is to blessings and the need for sacrifices for sin under the Old Covenant, to Jesus, the promised Redeemer. By the blood of the Messiah, all the laws under the Old Covenant are now all, all, all fulfilled in Jesus, even the promise to never leave or forsake or whatever.
Why do Christians want to go back to the Old Covenant to get anything from God? Don’t you trust God’s promise in the New Covenant? Relying on the Old Covenant is death, hell, and gets “believers” in that system the wages of sin. It will not work for eternal life because it is dead, based on works; keeping it was not based on faith from God. The New Covenant is not a 2-party participation agreement, as was said on this blog. Read what God tells us it is under Jesus. The New Covenant is based on the sovereign grace of God, freely given to whoever He wants to give it to, for eternal life in Jesus, to the Jew first and also the gentile. No amount of finding scriptures to refute that will change the fact that eternal life is in Jesus by faith. I don’t know what or where eternal security is!
I hope we will all go into prayer and review what God has told us in these blogs, in its context. Don’t pull out a scripture from its context. That is how we end up in error. Look at it in light of the whole plan of God. God must help us do that. If we truly belong to God, He will help us and chasten us if we need it, and it will hurt, but we will still be His.
Grace and peace,
His,
Dee
Dee B says
September 23, 2012 at 3:39 pmHello Barbara,
Thank you for recognizing the typo. I didn’t want to go back and correct it because it was an obvious error. I do want to respond to your comments. I believe your “reasoning” is a little circular and not the wisdom of God.
You acknowledged my comment about the underlying meaning the English word “study” from the Greek concordance, and rightly so. You said that, “while the word ‘study’ means what you have written, that is just a general definition…the specific meaning of the word ‘spoudazō’ (Strong’s G4704) is dependent upon its context…”. Then, you point to your definition #5 for the meaning of the word “study” to mean “study”, and you relate it to this definition: “it means that in order to ‘rightly [divide] the word of truth,’ we must ‘study.'” You have used the word study to define the word study. I don’t believe that is “cricket” as far as giving definitions go! Where in the Greek meanings of the word (Strong’s G4704) is that definition related to academic study? Your meaning is not the revealed Greek meaning! Your definition seems to line up with what the secular dictionaries say is study, i.e., “Devote time and attention to acquiring knowledge on (an academic subject), esp. by means of books.” But it is clear from the Greek meanings of “study” that the meaning is not about devoting time acquiring knowledge using books. The Holy Spirit says:
1Cr 2:5 That your faith should not stand in the wisdom of men, but in the power of God.
I am spending a little time on this point, and repeating myself, because it is key to learning to hear from God and discern His Voice. This type of secular “study” is the approach historically used in the Christian religion for gaining knowledge of the scriptures as millions of books, tapes, CDs and DVDs will attest to. All this activity has and is still happening despite God’s warning against acquiring and using man’s wisdom and vain philosophical human world view to interpret the mind and perspective of God! For myself, I stay away from commentaries which some of the concordances have in them. I have found wrong interpretations many times by the Spirit of God (such as “weeping mulberry trees” in the valley of Baca versus theologians’ “balsam trees” interpretation. Hallelujah!
Col 2:8 Beware lest any man spoil you through philosophy and vain deceit, after the tradition of men, after the rudiments of the world, and not after Christ.
Is reading, researching the underlying meaning of the translators words in scripture and praying about it, an “endeavor” believers should do? Of course! But the interpretation of the will of God must come from God, friends. Spending time with the Holy Spirit in reading the scriptures is only a portion of the diligence we are to give to our lives in God! (Romans 8:14 KJV). In fact, the word “approved” in that 2 Ti 2:15 verse has the underlying meaning of someone who as already been set in place by God and already accepted in the Beloved; not working in order to get approved and certainly not by studying. (1 Cor 11:19 KJV). Saints are not working to get approval from God at all, but are working out the approval that God has already placed in by faith in the righteousness of Jesus. (Ephesians 2:10 KJV) Our life is hid with Messiah (Christ) in God. It was a freely given Gift from God in Him.
1Cr 2:11 For what man knoweth the things of a man, save the spirit of man which is in him? even so the things of God knoweth no man, but the Spirit of God.
2:12 Now we have received, not the spirit of the world, but the spirit which is of God; that we might know the things that are freely given to us of God.
2:13 Which things also we speak, not in the words which man’s wisdom teacheth, but which the Holy Ghost teacheth; comparing spiritual things with spiritual.
1Cr 2:14 But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know [them], because they are spiritually discerned.
1 Cr 2:16 For who hath known the mind of the Lord, that he may instruct him? But we have the mind of Christ.
Born from above believers must settle this and act accordingly! God has revealed by the Holy Spirit through Paul the Apostle and others, that this is God’s way of training us up to rule and reign with Jesus. Can you go to Christian seminary? Yes, but you will NOT get a living knowledge of the things of God except He give it to you through your born from above spirit–the mind of Jesus which is spiritual–by revelation from the Spirit of God, who then gives it to our soul’s mind. Yes, it takes time and many mistakes to shake off the shackles of the world’s thinking, but we will be doing this until we go Home, because God admonishes and reminds us: For my thoughts [are] not your thoughts, neither [are] your ways my ways, saith the LORD. For [as] the heavens are higher than the earth, so are my ways higher than your ways, and my thoughts than your thoughts.” (Isaiah 55:8-9 KJV)
In fact, we are told in Hebrews how the ability to discern, distinguish or judge the “word” of truth, good and evil, is obtained. English word “senses”, Greek Strong’s G145 meaning: “a faculty of the mind for perceiving, understanding, judging”, and yes!, rightly dividing the word of truth (Hebrews 5:12-14 KJV). That faculty of the mind is based on our new spiritual life, and God’s revealed perspective mind of Jesus the Messiah, not academic human wisdom. Even the babe’s milk of the word is not developed enough to understand the deeper revelations of God, although a babe can receive revelations or they would not be born from above. (Mat16:17)
In the plan of God, Christianity has been built on the minds of many, many theologians, teachers and pastors, false apostles, who do not have the mind of God. Hence the apostasy and great falling away! Falling away from what, you ask? Ask God! Most Christians and groups have their own private interpretation of what they “studied” and the Christian religion is split along those lines. But God is in control and those true believers, already approved, are seeking after and walking in the God’s truth, being led by the Spirit of God, and if anyone has read the end of the “book”, God’s plan prevails.
Blessings to all those called by God into His Ekklesia that has no spot or wrinkle or any such thing! Trust Him with His life in you. It is everlasting and eternal.
His,
Dee
Barbara LeFevre says
September 24, 2012 at 5:50 pmI will have my response tomorrow.
Barbara LeFevre says
September 25, 2012 at 11:35 amDee~
I had written a somewhat lengthy post addressing the many topics that you brought up in your posts to me, but I stopped short of posting it because it seems that we are getting nowhere. With everyone chiming in with this opinion and that verse, all that has come out of this dialogue has been strife and division, not the eternal truth of God’s Word going forth as He intended. In your last post to me you wrote, “Either God’s word is true or it isn’t,” which seems to be the only thing upon which we agree, but it is a start. On your September 23 post you wrote, “I do want to respond to your comments.” Okay, Dee, I’m going to hold you to that. I might have missed one or two points of yours in all these weeks, but other than that, I have addressed every single concern that you have put forth to me, and now I am asking that you respond in kind.
Below are four examples out of Scripture that prove that a true, born-again person can lose his or her salvation. If what you believe is true, then you should have no trouble telling me why I am wrong, and if I am, I will apologize. Just to be clear, I’m not asking for your opinion about Christians, about how you receive the truth, about replacement theology, about your definition of eternal security or eternal life, or about your understanding of what it means to be a nonbeliever, an apostate, a “born by God Saint” or any other definition or topic that has caused so much disagreement. In addition, you can leave out any and all comments about my character, my attitude, or my ability to understand Scripture. I have, several times, asked you to explain your theology in light of certain Scriptures that contradict your view, but you have never answered them. You are right; it’s not about “competition,” but it is about accountability, yours and mine, so I will await your explanation on the following examples:
1. Below is a list of some 20 verses that illustrate that our final salvation is conditional upon our faithfulness to the covenant we entered into with God. Because all verses (II Tim. 3:16) MUST be reconciled to find the truth of God’s Word, please explain what truth they are putting forth if not the loss of salvation, keeping in mind one thing; they are all addressed to believers. In addition, they also dispel one of the most widely used and unsupported reasons of all, that “they weren’t really saved to begin with.” (caps mine)
~“But IF ye forgive not men their trespasses, neither will your Father forgive your trespasses” (Matt. 6:15).
~“And his lord was wroth, and delivered him to the tormentors, till he should pay all that was due unto him. So likewise shall my heavenly Father do also unto you, IF ye from your hearts forgive not every one his brother their trespasses” (Matt. 18:34-35).
~“Then said Jesus to those Jews which believed on him, IF ye continue in my word, [then] are ye my disciples indeed; And ye shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you free” (Jn. 8:31-32).
~“Verily, verily, I say unto you, IF a man keep my saying, he shall never see death” (Jn. 8:51).
~“I am the vine, ye [are] the branches: He that abideth in me, and I in him, the same bringeth forth much fruit: for without me ye can do nothing. IF a man abide not in me, he is cast forth as a branch, and is withered; and men gather them, and cast [them] into the fire, and they are burned” (Jn. 15:5-6).
~“For IF ye live after the flesh, ye shall die: but IF ye through the Spirit do mortify the deeds of the body, ye shall live.” (Rom. 8:13).
~ “And if children, then heirs; heirs of God, and joint-heirs with Christ; IF so be that we suffer with [him], that we may be also glorified together” (Rom. 8:17).
~“Behold therefore the goodness and severity of God: on them which fell, severity; but toward thee, goodness, IF thou continue in [his] goodness: otherwise thou also shalt be cut off” (Rom. 11:22).
~“And let us not be weary in well doing: for in due season we shall reap, IF we faint not” (Gal. 6:9).
~“In the body of his flesh through death, to present you holy and unblameable and unreproveable in his sight: IF ye continue in the faith grounded and settled, and [be] not moved away from the hope of the gospel, which ye have heard, [and] which was preached to every creature which is under heaven; whereof I Paul am made a minister” (Col. 1:22-23).
~“For now we live, IF ye stand fast in the Lord” (I Th. 3:8).
~“IF we suffer, we shall also reign with [him]: IF we deny [him], he also will deny us” (II Tim. 2:12).
~“But Christ as a son over his own house; whose house are we, IF we hold fast the confidence and the rejoicing of the hope firm unto the end” (Heb. 3:6).
~“For we are made partakers of Christ, IF we hold the beginning of our confidence stedfast unto the end” (Heb. 3:14).
~“IF ye endure chastening, God dealeth with you as with sons; for what son is he whom the father chasteneth not? But IF ye be without chastisement, whereof all are partakers, then are ye bastards, and not sons” (Heb. 12:7-8).
~“See that ye refuse not him that speaketh. For if they escaped not who refused him that spake on earth, much more [shall not] we [escape], IF we turn away from him that [speaketh] from heaven” (Heb. 12:25).
~“But IF we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship one with another, and the blood of Jesus Christ his Son cleanseth us from all sin” (I Jn. 1:7).
~“IF we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us [our] sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness” (I Jn. 1:9).
~“Let that therefore abide in you, which ye have heard from the beginning. IF that which ye have heard from the beginning shall remain in you, ye also shall continue in the Son, and in the Father” (I Jn. 2:24).
2. In the Book of Revelation, Jesus Christ Himself reveals some of the most compelling verses in the Bible to support the idea that one can, indeed, lose his or her salvation. In the summation of each of these seven letters, all written to believing churches, a consequence is written in either the positive or the negative, and each one is based upon the condition that the church “repent” and “overcome” something. According to Strong’s Concordance, for a church (or person) to overcome, it means to emerge victorious by holding fast to his faith, even unto death, against the power of foes, temptations, and persecutions (nikao, G3529). What Jesus is telling each church, except Philadelphia, is that it needs to “repent” from a particular sin and that all churches are to “overcome” something, which would refer to the flesh and the world. As you study, please note that the outcome of each church’s response to Jesus’ criticism and call to repent and to overcome is a specific aspect of salvation, not of reward.
~The loveless church in Ephesus must repent and overcome, or it will have its lamp stand removed.
~The persecuted church in Smyrna must repent and overcome, or it will be hurt by the second death.
~The compromising church in Pergamos must repent and overcome so that it will receive hidden manna and white stone.
~The corrupt church in Thyatira must repent and overcome, or it won’t receive the power given to all of the saved.
~The dead church in Sardis must repent and overcome, or it will have its name blotted out of the Book of Life.
~The faithful church in Philadelphia must overcome, or it won’t become a part of God’s holy city.
~The lukewarm church in Laodicea must repent and overcome, or it will not wear garments of salvation.
3. Matthew 25:14-30 (Parable of the Talents)
Because this parable refers to the kingdom of Heaven, we understand the “man” to be the Lord and the “servants” to be believers (v. 1). As lord, the man gave each of his servants a certain number of talents, either five or two or one, “according to his own ability” (v. 15). The servants who were given five and two talents each did something with what the lord had given them (v. 16-17), and they were given additional things because they had been faithful (v. 20-23). However, the servant who had been given one talent did nothing with what the lord had entrusted him (v. 18), and the lord called him a “wicked and lazy servant” (v. 26) and took away what little he had (v. 29). Now, if this were the end of the story, one could possibly conclude that the wicked servant just lost some rewards; however, verse 30 is very clear that what the wicked servant lost was his salvation: “And cast ye the unprofitable servant into outer darkness: there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth.” We know that, in Heaven, there isn’t going to be any “weeping and gnashing of teeth,” a phrase that is used five times in the NT (Matt. 8:12, 22:13, 24:51, 25:30, and Lk. 13:28) and always refers to eternal punishment. This same thought is also illustrated in Matthew 13:42 and 50 where it is written, “wailing and gnashing of teeth” because the wicked have been cast into the “furnace of fire.” Terms and phrases such as “weeping,” “wailing,” “gnashing of teeth,” “outer darkness,” and “furnace of fire” are not descriptors of loss of reward but of salvation.
4. John 15:1-6
In this passage, Jesus is using the analogy of a vineyard to describe the relationship between believers and Himself. We understand from several references, especially verse 5, that Jesus is “the vine” and believers are “the branches.” In verses 4-5, Jesus says that believers cannot bear fruit unless they abide in Him, but this passage is clear that not all branches do continue to abide in Him and that there are consequences. In verse 2, He speaks of two types of branches that are “in [Jesus],” believers who bear fruit and believers who don’t. Those branches that do bear fruit are pruned by God in order to bear more fruit. Those branches that do not bear fruit are “taken away,” which verse six explains as being “…cast forth as a branch, and is withered; and men gather them, and cast [them] into the fire, and they are burned.” This is loss of salvation, a truth that further underscored by the fact that the word “abide,” is used nine times in chapter 15, four times alone in verses four and six as a warning to believers so that they will not be “taken away” and “burned.”
The above examples are just few of the numerous verses that I found. As I wrote in my initial post on this topic, I have reconciled all the verses that are used in support of not being able to lose salvation with those that are used in support of being able to lose it. Rather than repost it here, I will just refer you to the Preface and Introduction to read my conclusions. Remember, I don’t care if you disagree with what I have said, but I do expect a reasonable explanation as to why my explanations and conclusions are wrong.
Barbara
Dee B says
September 25, 2012 at 3:40 pmHi Barbara,
I would like to answer some of your comments and questions but first I need you to answer the series of questions I asked way below on covenant. (Moving through this blog is so ungainly that you can’t see comments in context or order without flying back and forth through the blog! I hope the Blog people are addressing this.)
I only want to give you answers based on God’s scripture but I need to see your questions and comments in context of what your answers are to the questions about covenant.
Thanks.
Grace and Peace,
Dee
Dee B says
September 25, 2012 at 3:44 pmAlso Barbara,
Please feel free to email me for dialogue, and anyone else who cares to at:
dbhomeoffice@yahoo.com
Grace, Peace & Truth is in Yeshua Ha Mashiyach,
Dee
Barbara LeFevre says
September 25, 2012 at 6:16 pmDee~
No, sorry. That is exactly what I am talking about. I’m done going in circles. It doesn’t matter about the covenant or any of the other issues that have been brought into the discussion. I have answered enough of your questions. Now it is your turn. Can you or can you not refute the four examples I have given? Since this topic was posted on the 19th, you have been very vocal about your stance that saints cannot lose their salvation. I think these examples say otherwise. All I am asking is that you prove me wrong if you can. If these four aren’t enough, I can supply many more.
Barbara
Barbara LeFevre says
September 25, 2012 at 6:24 pmI had one more comment, but I accidently hit the ‘submit’ button. As far as any discussion about the covenant, we are in the new covenant, and because each example I gave is from that covenant, that is context. No other information is needed. I will await your answers.
Dee B says
September 26, 2012 at 12:06 pmBarbara,
It is true that my reasons for believing that God’s gift of eternal life is given forever and can’t be lost by a true born from above believer is on this blog. Not about “the doctrine of eternal security”, but eternal life. I have said that I know what I know by the Holy Spirit. You say you know that saints can lose their God-given eternal life from your personal “study”.
So, I am going to encourage you to go to God with your proof. I could care less about “proving you wrong”. The scriptures are not mine. Father God, by the Holy Spirit, is the author. I have eternal life based on God’s doctrine and revelation to my spiritual mind. I can never lose it. I believe God, not you.
I also don’t really care what you think about my not answering your comments. Berate me all you like! This is not your website! I can comment or not comment where ever I choose, unless the blog censor prevents it.
You seem bent on undermining the faith of God’s people in His word with your “study”. That is a shame.
I suggest you do a serious “study”, with the Holy Spirit, on the Old and New Covenant because what you said, “It doesn’t matter about the covenant or any of the other issues that have been brought into the discussion…”, makes no godly sense whatsoever.
My prayer for you, in agreement with Jesus the Messiah, is that Father God’s Will be done in your life, even as it is in heaven.
Grace and Peace to you in God’s forever.
His,
Dee
Barbara LeFevre says
September 26, 2012 at 6:06 pmDee~
You’re missing the point. It doesn’t matter that you claim to “ know [something] by the Holy Spirit” or that you claim to have had a “revelation to [your] spiritual mind” if what you claim know by revelation to your spiritual mind contradicts the revealed Word of God. This is precisely why He gave it to us, so that we would know what it says. This is exactly what II Timothy 3:16 says: “All SCRIPTURE [is] given by inspiration of God, and [is] profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness” (caps mine). In other words, it is to it, and it alone, that we are find God’s eternal truth, which is exactly what we are told in Acts 17:11, that “they received the word with all readiness of mind, and searched the SCRIPTURES daily, whether those things were so” (caps mine). We are to “prove all things” (I Th. 5:21) through Scripture, not through someone’s revelation.
In an earlier post, you wrote, “You may not like the fact that I confess that I receive revelation from the Living God as one of God’s born from above believers, but I do.” Dee, I don’t mind that anyone receives revelation from the living God. What I do mind is when people claim that they have done so when their revelations are a clear contradiction of God’s written Word. Sorry, but I spent too many years in a denomination that claimed that it, too, received all kinds of revelation from the living God. Unfortunately, no matter how much revelation they got, their interpretation of I Corinthians 15:35 still doesn’t mean that we are to baptize for the dead, and John 10:34 still doesn’t mean that we can become gods of our own worlds if we are worthy. This is exactly why we were given the written Word, so that all “revelations” can be checked, and this includes yours. No one, especially one who considers herself a teacher of God’s Word the way you do, is exempt from scrutiny. You can’t say that you “believe God” and then dismiss from consideration whatever part of His written Word that disagrees with your theology. You are right; the “scriptures are not [yours];” they are God’s, which means that the Bible judges us; we don’t judge the Bible, and if your beliefs don’t line up with the Word of God, regardless of how well you can articulate them, then you are the one who is wrong.
Finally, you wrote, “So, I am going to encourage you to go to God with your proof.” Dee, I don’t have to go to God with my proof because I have come to you with His proof, His written Word. Throughout this dialogue, you have repeatedly claimed that the Holy Spirit has revealed things to you, including the doctrine that saints who have eternal life can never lose it. In your September 23 post to me, you cited II Timothy 4:2 and then followed it with the comment, “I just believe what God has already said as He leads me into His truth,” so if He has revealed this to you, then certainly He can reveal to you a reasonable explanation to give to me and everyone reading this as to why my four examples are saying the exact opposite. As I see it, the bottom line is not that you “[couldn’t] less about ‘proving [me] wrong,’” it’s that you can’t prove me wrong, regardless of how you try to divert attention away from that fact by using fallacy after fallacy to prove your points, which, as you should know, voids any conclusions you have reached through them. I don’t claim to know everything, but one thing I do know. If you were “rightly dividing the Word” (II Tim. 2:15b) as you claim, you would have no problem reconciling your theology with the examples I’ve given rather than just treating them as though they don’t exist because, in fact, they do exist, so I ask you again, CAN YOU OR CAN YOU NOT REFUTE THE FOUR EXAMPLES THAT I HAVE GIVEN? Yes or no? I will await your answer.
Barbara
Tim says
September 23, 2012 at 5:23 pmAmen Dee
“ECUMENISM”
By the way no seminary or a lot of commentaries just fasting, praying and the BOOK, which does not contradict ITS SELF nor will the Spirit of God contradict what is in black and white and RED. I’m just an old country boy.
Do you know any scripture the talks about believers turning back? Please make reference.
God Bless
Dee B says
September 23, 2012 at 7:10 pmHi Tim,
Which one are you? Are you the one up top who apologized to Moses with an LOL? Or are you another Tim?
It doesn’t really matter which one! I hope you are the “Moses” one because to see ecumenism in Christianity is a revelation from God of the apostasy, idolatry and unbelief inherent in the religious system.
I don’t see that true born from above believers turn back as the Jews did, backsliding under the Old Covenant. The New Covenant gives eternal life based on Grace by faith in Jesus, not law keeping. I believe the apostles are pointing out the behavior and thinking that will reveal who is born again and who isn’t. I see it this way because God tells us that a born from above believer is in Jesus who gives eternal life that will never be taken away. You can’t have it both ways! You either believe that He has given it or you don’t.
As much as I would have liked Demas, Paul’s buddy, to be a true believer, he doesn’t appear to be from Paul’s comments. But of course, God is sovereign and Demas could very well have left to do his own thing and been brought back to God. One brother thought that Demas could have just gotten married, forsaking Paul who wasn’t married. I don’t think this is so, but it could be! I really don’t know. I’ll find out when I get to heaven. LOL!
I know from my own experiences, I have been walking with God for a long time and have gone off the deep end many times. You would have thought I was not a believer by some of my behavior over the years. But each time, God has to called me I heard Him, and He punished me as a child He loves when I needed it. Like the younger son in Jesus’ parable, Father God prepared a feast for me and gave me a ring and new robe!! And some of those punishments were physical and really hurt. But He was there to comfort and heal. (Hebrews 12:7 KJV; Hebrews 12:11 KJV)
So, how do I know that He didn’t forsake me? Because I still love Him and even more now seek His presence and counsel for all that I specifically ask Him. Sometimes, though, I just know. This is how it is, more or less, with all His children. My 2 favorite verses among many, many others, but given to me as a babe are:
Psa 32:8-9 KJV: I will instruct thee and teach thee in the way which thou shalt go: I will guide thee with mine eye. Be ye not as the horse, [or] as the mule, [which] have no understanding: whose mouth must be held in with bit and bridle, lest they come near unto thee.
2Cr 3:18 KJV: But we all, with open face beholding as in a glass the glory of the Lord, are changed into the same image from glory to glory, [even] as by the Spirit of the Lord.
You get a sore mouth trying to take the bit and bridle into your teeth and run with it, having no understanding and thinking you do! As for being changed into the same image of my Lord, I just walk in as much peace as I can, because the Holy Spirit makes that happen.
I hope I have helped. Grace and Peace is in Jesus the Messiah.
His,
Dee
Dee B says
September 24, 2012 at 8:47 amGood Morning Tim,
I have been thinking about your request for a scriptural reference of “believers turning back…” I did not give you one in my previous comment, only my own personal experience. The Holy Spirit showed me one this morning. I think others would be edified through it also.
Please read it and go to the Lord with it. It is very instructive on many levels. The scripture is in Paul’s letter to the gentile-based Corinthian ekklesia (Church?). This ekklesia was birthed as the result of the labor of Paul and his brethren preaching the grace of God in Jesus under the New Covenant. Even though this ekklesia had many true spiritual gifts manifested by the Holy Spirit, the believers were the most carnal of all the gentile churches. Imagine that! Here is his description of this called out group in KJV. The ESV is even more clear. (1 Cor 3:1-6)
1 Cr 3:1-6 KJV: And I, brethren, could not speak unto you as unto spiritual, but as unto carnal, [even] as unto babes in Christ. I have fed you with milk, and not with meat: for hitherto ye were not able. For ye are yet carnal: for whereas [there is] among you envying, and strife, and divisions, are ye not carnal, and walk as men? For while one saith, I am of Paul; and another, I [am] of Apollos; are ye not carnal? Who then is Paul, and who [is] Apollos, but ministers by whom ye believed, even as the Lord gave to every man? I have planted, Apollos watered; but God gave the increase.
These are the key verses concerning “believers” turning from God, and God’s judgement. (1 Corinthians 5:1-11 KJV). I will not copy it out. Please view it in your bible or this link. The whole of 1 Corinthians chapters 5 and 6 is instructive but I point to the specific relevant scriptures for your edification, verses 1, 5 and 11. Notice, Paul is not talking about the Day of the Lord as in the beginning of the Tribulation. He is referring to the “catching away” of the saints, which is not in judgement! I found these verses comforting.
Paul is angry! (He has an infamous temper. LOL!) He is talking about the behavior that, IF continued in, indicates that those persons will not inherit the kingdom of God. (1 Corinthians 6:7-12 KJV). We are to point out what is carnal, ungodly behavior in one calling himself a “brother”, and separate from him so that God, (in this case using Satan), can deal with him and bring him in repentence for the saving of his spirit to eternal life.
God will give you more. Eternal life is God’s business.1 Corinthians 2:15 KJV.
1 Cor 2:15 NLT: The spiritual man makes judgments about all things, but he himself is not subject to any man’s judgment:
Notice Paul says “spiritual man”, a born from above believer.
Jesus the Messiah is Lord!
His,
Dee
Mark (Cov) says
September 24, 2012 at 6:31 amDee…I like you and can see The Spirit of Truth has directed your path.
These comments remind me of the scriptures that show the man Jesus discussing Torah, the prophets, etc with the “learned” men in synagogue. The “learned” men kept harping on The Law and seemed determined to keep the people of Israel bound. And Jesus moved in love and so because he was love grounded His faith actually worked which flipped the “learned” up side down. Jesus did not come to condemn us but to guide via Spirit. Which is why He said…I’m outta here guys but I’m gonna leave you a friend that sticks closer than a natural brother. Jesus was speaking covenant and The Holy Spirit speaks covenant.
Those that want to continue to point out that God has forsaken the people of Israel. I ask a simple question or two…of what spirit are you? And has God forsaken them?
The Blood Covenant between Father God and mankind is a divine blood covenant. It is marked, imprinted…..put your finger in it and feel the curve of the wound Thomas kinda covenant written in the body of one Jesus, The Christ. Because it is in His body it is His to keep. And He has sworn to keep me and sent The Holy Spirit to comfort me. So I’m comforted. And like it or not guys…..I’m kept…..my name is correctly spelled in The Book of Life.
So those that want to sit on the pew doubt while the preacher rails on a message of condemnation bring a snack…but I will sup with The Master on challah sprinkled with honey and breath deep nefesh. Why? Because I am free.
Dee B says
September 24, 2012 at 9:01 amShalom Mark (Cov):
What an excellent exhortation in the scriptures and the attitude of Jesus to the Law! He was under the law but teaching Grace. Well done!
I am blessed that you recognize the moving of the Spirit of God in these blogs, as I do also. It is the Lord who gives us eyes to see and ears to hear what the Spirit is saying to the ekklesia.
And thanks for the chuckle. I do enjoy a good chuckle: “And like it or not guys…..I’m kept…..my name is correctly spelled in The Book of Life…So those that want to sit on the pew doubt while the preacher rails on a message of condemnation bring a snack…but I will sup with The Master on challah sprinkled with honey and breath deep nefesh. Why? Because I am free.”
Jesus the Messiah is Lord.
His,
Dee
tim says
September 24, 2012 at 9:38 amWow Thanks Mark
I am no literary or grammar teacher or even a great typist, but I can READ and I know the Spirit of GOD. Paul warned Us in Romans 11 about not continuing and He made the connection between the OLD and the NEW “Be not high-minded but fear” (you can read what he said in Vs. 20-23 and the entire Ch) and yes your name may be in the BOOK of LIFE, but CHRIST warned about blotting it out (erasing it). There is only one way for it to be in there (in the book of life). That’s if you are “born from above”. Why would HE do THAT (erase it)? hmmmm? I’m sure it is spell correctly, but I doubt that it is “Mark” you won’t even know what it is until you read on the little white stone you get when you get there.
No I don’t believe it’s by works lest any man should boast. It’s by Grace through Faith in CHRIST!!! It’s a Choice. I don’t know why someone would choose to walk away from GOD, but people do it everyday. To say that they were never really saved I don’t judge like that (and CHRIST said in his parables some would do that). You have admitted that even you yourself have done it. Even the angels that were with GOD did it and Peter and Jude told what was waiting for them.
You see the Devil is as a roaring lion seeking whom he may devour through deception. (You see we live through Faith but the devil kills even the living though deception). He did it with Adam and Eve, he tried it with CHRIST (the audacity), you don’t think he tries with mere (believing) men and sometimes wins (not the he beats Christ but we choose, because of choice, free-will and all that).
And by the way you guys have not let me know if there are any scripture in THE NEW TESTAMENT that speak about turning away, falling away, departing from and that kind of stuff. (And a simple yes or no will work)
Let’s agree to disagree. I believe that you guys or gals are believers. So “Hold Fast” as the writer of Hebrews, Paul and ah CHRIST warned us to do.
AND GOD BLESS
Truly from my heart I have enjoyed the discussion.
Dee B says
September 24, 2012 at 10:18 amMornin’ tim,
I did give you a reference that you asked for in the comment to “Tim”, up above about 8:47 this AM. Are you the same Tim (capital “T”) or a different tim (“small “t”)? I’m just a bit confused. Please find it and see what you see about it.
Also, you said “No I don’t believe it’s by works lest any man should boast. It’s by Grace through Faith in CHRIST!!! It’s a Choice.” I am assuming you mean eternal life, salvation, from your comments.
So which is it that you believe: is eternal life by God’s free grace (His choosing as a sovereign Creator God), or is it by man’s choice (as the created being)? Please forgive me if I have misunderstood which choice you mean.
Also, thanks for another chuckle: “I’m sure it is spell correctly, but I doubt that it is “Mark” you won’t even know what it is until you read on the little white stone you get when you get there.”
A merry heart does good like a medicine!!
Grace, Peace and Truth is in Jesus the Messiah.
His,
Dee
Mark (Cov) says
September 24, 2012 at 10:34 pmEvening tim…I can agree to disagree…no prob. I do have several questions though concerning maturity.
Lets say you have a child that is still wearing diapers. The little fella makes a dirty in the diaper…do you throw out the diaper or the child? Then fast forward to….oh….say 6 or 7 years of age. The little fella don’t like that you have taken away the cookies so he/she writes on the wall and so you dust his/her britches. Because there has been punishment the little fella bows up and emphatically states he/she hates you. Do you boot the little fella outside to sleep in the cold, flip him/her a quarter and send him/her down the road? Do you honestly believe the little guy no longer loves you and bounce him/her on his/her head out into darkness? Or later when the little fella has grown up to be a teenager…do you have teenagers tim cause they can test an adult like nobodies biznez…..why they will even proclaim to all their friends they know more and can work more than the parent ever even dreamed. The point I’m making is obvious. If you would not give your child a stone and say it is bread, why would our Heavenly Father do such a thing?
Also, nature is a perfect place to observe things of the spirit. I ask you…can you take yourself and undo your self? Can your revert back to a teenager…then a 6 or 7 year old…..or go back to a pint sized little fella wearing a diaper….or go all the way back to where you are no more than a sperm and an egg? It a simple thought process. If it is impossible to do this in the natural, how is it possible to do this in the spirit? You see, we are born again in the spirit, not the flesh.
Father God did the reborning (not good grammer but I’m making a point)by His divine seed into our lifeless spirit. Guess you could say our spirit was the egg. Here’s a neat thing tim, the egg will only receive the sperm if the timing is right. As a matter of fact, for anything to grow, prosper, etc there must first be a receiving. He breathed life, and you became because your spirit reached a point of receiving. Read 1 John 3:9, and ponder please. My point further is, have you sinned tim? Is your spirit, the real you, running around in places it should not be or is it your body running around and getting into trouble? If it is your body, clean it up, spank it if it needs it but don’t consume self condemnation. If your spirit is in a state of darkness…..then follow the Roman road to freedom by receiving the gift of life.
One last question for now…..what would a parent think if the son/daughter constantly came into the living room and said, Dad, I messed up so would you and mom start over and make a new me please? Sounds sorta silly I know but that is exactly what folks seem to be doing. They mess up and want Father God to resend The Holy Spirit so they can get reborn again. I can just hear Daddy God say…son/daughter, you got some growing to do so know I still love you and we will get through this together as family.
shalom alechem tim…..cause I really do like a good conversation. If I remember correctly Jesus did that all the time down at the synagogue. :>)
Dee B says
September 25, 2012 at 4:07 amMark,
Whoop, Whoop! Holy Spirit in the house!
Grace and Peace,
Dee
Dee B says
September 25, 2012 at 9:10 amHi Again Mark,
I really enjoyed your “parables or metaphors”. It seems like you have dealt with all size kids, judging from the tender way you related to them.
I believe your metaphor breaks with scripture in one point. “Here’s a neat thing tim, the egg will only receive the sperm if the timing is right. As a matter of fact, for anything to grow, prosper, etc there must first be a receiving. He breathed life, and you became because your spirit reached a point of receiving.”
This is why I say this. People get stuck with the, “as many as received him” part of the scripture John 1:12-13 KJV, and the whosoever part of John 3:16 and other scriptures.
But consider your analogy. The life breath or power, which causes the egg and the sperm to create, is outside of the womb. The timing is God’s. Man cannot create Life. Life must be received into the vessel, in your case, the joining of the egg and sperm in the womb, in order for the generation of life to happen. The egg/sperm, or flowers, can’t choose, accept or reject the life of God. God decides which baby gets born and which one miscarries or gets aborted. All souls are His and He is the Father, Sire of spirits. (Eze 18:4 KJV; Hebrews 12:9 KJV) (I am not saying that He approves of murder but God tells us He is Sovereign and has a plan. Unrighteousness is used for His Glory!, Eze 39:21 KJV.)
Further, you said “first be a receiving…He breathed life, and you became because your spirit reached a point of receiving…”! But how did it reach that point of receiving if receiving is first? Look at the order of things: God breathed FIRST, and (then) man became a living soul, a “receiving” vessel of clay. That was God’s decision, “Let Us make man”, Gen 1:26-28. All life, any life, any thing, starts with God. God decides who lives and who dies; who receives Life from Him, and who doesn’t get it! (As many as received, as many as were ordained, etc.) That is so hard for man to accept.
So it is with eternal life. God decides. As in the natural, so in the spiritual (1 Cr 15:46 KJV)
John 3:4-6 KJV: Nicodemus saith unto him, How can a man be born when he is old? can he enter the second time into his mother’s womb, and be born? Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and [of] the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God. That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.
As an side, Jesus is not talking about born by water baptism here; reference to water baptism is no where in the context surrounding His conversation with Nicodemus. But He is referring to wombs and fleshly birth! He is comparing the way a human being comes into birth in the flesh (water of the human womb) and spiritual birth. Nicodemus understands He is making this comparison too! I think we can safely say that dogs, etc., angels or demons can not be born again! LOL!
The point being, no Spirit first, no new spiritual birth. Now we can look at John 1:12 in context and understand John 1:13, and see that if isn’t God’s will for you to receive new birth, i.e. eternal life in Jesus, it won’t happen (and that person won’t care). Man can not choose his birth or who his parents are! Which also means, if you carry it out, that God isn’t willing every human being to Life, “not willing that any should perish because some He chooses as vessels for destruction. He is talking about of those He chose. Simple, the simplicity of the eternal life in the Messiah.
Why do Christians hate this and want to have sovereignty over God, limit Him, and have Him obey their yes or no? Why do they think that they can stop God’s plans by simply disagreeing with Him? Because of the fallen nature of humanity, just like Adam, human beings think they are god! Either God is God, or He ain’t!
Grace and much peace in Ha Mashiyach.
Dee
Mark (Cov) says
September 26, 2012 at 6:17 amMorning Dee…yes I have dealt with several ages of kids and yes I know born of water is in reference to the womb. But Spirit is first. God is Spirit and He breathed spirit into Adam. First in understanding we must realize Hebrew is a picture language. Second, I ask you to look at Numbers 6:24-26 in light of The Father and creation…Adam specifically. I will get back here this afternoon but duty calls for right now.
Anticipating conversation :>)
Dee B says
September 26, 2012 at 12:11 pmHi Mark,
Is that the reference you meant to give me? I don’t see the connection.
Dee
Dee B says
September 25, 2012 at 10:39 amMark,
I was just reminded of something else. God doesn’t only have a will, He also has a way of accomplishing His will. Like using Satan or unbelievers to chasten His children, etc.
I was reminded that when a couple marries the way God instructs, i.e., becoming one flesh, even if only one of the spouses has eternal life and the other is an unbeliever, God does something special for His child. (Of course, God tells us not to be unequally yoked with unbelievers including marriage, but sometimes that happens and He has allowed for it.)
The special thing He does for His child is that if the unbelieving spouse chooses to stay with the saint, and there are children in that union (or from a lawful remarriage), God uses the saint to sanctify (separate unto Himself), the unbelieving spouse, and cleanse the children, unto salvation in Jesus! Isn’t that marvelous? That is a promise from God!
Now I know it sounds like I made that up but I didn’t. I am so happy to share it with you and any saint who has children. If you didn’t already know this, here are the scriptures.
1Cr 7:12 But to the rest speak I, not the Lord: If any brother hath a wife that believeth not, and she be pleased to dwell with him, let him not put her away.
1Cr 7:13 And the woman which hath an husband that believeth not, and if he be pleased to dwell with her, let her not leave him.
1Cr 7:14 For the unbelieving husband is sanctified by the wife, and the unbelieving wife is sanctified by the husband: else were your children unclean; but now are they holy.
1Cr 7:40 …abide, after my judgment: and I think also that I have the Spirit of God.
Another scripture relating to this “mystery” in marriage, and the power of God unto salvation through the preaching of the good news of Jesus is:
Pro 22:6 Train up a child in the way he should go: and when he is old, he will not depart from it.
The “before ordained good works” of our sovereign God in the true saint (Eph 2:10 KJV) is going to preach and teach their children the good news, which is the power of God unto salvation in Jesus (eternal life). Hallelujah!
All the blessings of God are in Yeshua Ha Mashiyach.
His,
Dee
Mark (Cov) says
September 27, 2012 at 5:58 amGood morning Dee…yes, the scripture in Numbers was the reference I wanted to give you. I thought it may sound out of bounds to the current conversation but there is a point. The blessing that was spoken….The Lord bless you and keep, the Lord make His face shine upon you and be gracious to you, the Lord turn His face toward you and give you peace…according to Oral Tradition has a creation root. First, it is a picture that is drawn mentally of a father picking up a child with a joyful embrace. As the father turns his face towards the child the joy shines…there is a breathing of laughter and speaking and this brings peace to the child. Peace, shalom, is everything that is needed for life to proceed in normality. This is a picture of the creation as Father God breathed life into Adam. First the clay mold (the egg), then He spoke (the seed)…..holding Adam up and looking into his face He breathed and as Adam received, breathed in, he had life and peace.
Gods is spirit. And Adam, Eve, you and I…all of mankind already are in spirit. How? Father God knew us…Jeremiah 1:5 as a reference. So out of Himself, Father God breathed into the formed body of Adam. That body was completed and ready to receive the spirit to be breathed by Father God. The first Adam fell, and he drug Eve with him by not moving in the correct spiritual husband protection for his wife. Why? Adam feared. Fear is the beginning of death, the root. So Adam was already walking towards death in the spirit. This is why Father God began the process of a new spirit through our Messiah. It was preordained true, but how many earth years passed before the timing was right? Then one day, there was a lady and her heart was ready and the earth timing was ready and Father God spoke and life was…
In reference to the seed and egg…..I do know and understand about the water of the womb. But before the water, the egg had to be in proper position to receive. How many eggs are flushed out of the bodies? If every egg received the seed, how many people would be on this planet today? There must first be a receiving….certain things must be in order…conditions etc for the miracle of life to begin.
So it is with the spiritual conception of new birth. And this is where The Holy Spirit comes in…..God the Spirit looks upon the heart of men. God the Spirit knows the correct timing, the readiness of the heart. And at the right time, God the Spirit will breath upon the heart.
How many times have people been around the moving of The Spirit, yet remain without spirit new life? I am thinking of one person at this moment…a certain lady has been in prayer for 27 years that her son’s father would be born again. And just a few days ago the fella finally stepped into the new birth. Why did he not get born again after her first prayer? Why was he so hateful and contrary to new birth for so many years? Why did it take 27 long earth years? I don’t have all the answers…I only know that after a time (timing) he suddenly was ready to receive. And now you and I have a “suddenly” new brother. In the span of eternity, 27 years is but a blink of the eye, a suddenly. In earth time, the conditions for new birth took a long 27 years.
If a thousand years is but a day in eternity, Father Gods family has grown rather fast. But in the birth canal of time, sometimes it seems like it has been an eternity. ;>)
Have a great day!
Dee B says
September 27, 2012 at 10:01 amGood Morning Mark,
I think that was a great post. I believe the lessons in the Oral traditions can be very poignant, instructive and enriching in human emotional relationship response metaphors, but ONLY if they line up with the revealed Will of God in the inspired scriptures. Based on your explanation, that one does, showing God’s choice in creation first. You said, “picture of the creation as Father God breathed life into Adam…and as Adam received, breathed in, he had life and peace.”
You seem to flip the order of God’s giving Life in your thinking, in certain places when it comes to God choosing to give Life to man and man receiving. For example, to use your explanation of the Oral Tradition again, you say,
“…First the clay mold (the egg), then He spoke (the seed)…….He breathed and as Adam received, breathed in, he had life….” It is obvious truth that it is God’s decision to give life to mankind (Gen 1:26-27) and the sovereign divine method He chose to do so. He didn’t speak life into Adam who was made in His image and likeness, as He did in the “let there be” creation of the rest of the world. For man, this was an intimate breathing in, which speaks of Love and Tenderness, as in your Oral Tradition explanation.
And again you say, “the egg had to be in proper position to receive…There must first be a receiving….certain things must be in order…conditions etc for the miracle of life to begin.” Your focus seems to be on conditions rather than on the Creator of the egg, Who also sets up the conditions and proper position. You say that life doesn’t always happen with every egg, but you stop short of declaring that the miracle of life is God’s choice.
You transfer this flipping to eternal life also. You said, “God the Spirit knows…the readiness of the heart.” Yes, indeed God knows, and has emphatically declared His truth about humanity’s heart, that it can never be made ready by man.
Jer 17:9: “The heart [is] deceitful above all [things], and desperately wicked: who can know it?” And Jesus breaks down what that wickedness is, (Mat 15:18-19; Mark 7:21, Mat 12:34). Concerning all of humankind, not just the Jews, God cries out through the prophet David:
Psalm 14:1 [[To the chief Musician, [A Psalm] of David.]] The fool hath said in his heart, [There is] no God. They are corrupt, they have done abominable works, [there is] none that doeth good.
Psa 14:2 The LORD looked down from heaven upon the children of men, to see if there were any that did understand, [and] seek God.
Psa 14:3 They are all gone aside, they are [all] together become filthy: [there is] none that doeth good, no, not one.
And Paul, by the Holy Spirit, echoes this sentiment, Romans 3:10-18, (and shows us what God’s choosing, His Grace, is all about here and in subsequent chapters.
So how does man in this condition get his heart ready for God without God’s choosing, intervention? He can’t, according to God! He is deserving of eternal death. (Romans 3:28 KJV) Hence the need for God’s grace, intervention in giving His Son Jesus and the new covenant, which He uses to change the heart of whosoever He chooses, Jew first and gentile. (Ezekiel 36:26 KJV)
You also seem to tie readiness to receive (again, a condition on man’s side) to time and man’s work rather than the Will of God in His eternal plan and purpose. For example, the gist of what you said is: “a certain lady…in prayer for 27 years that her son’s father would be born again…a few days ago the fella finally stepped into the new birth. Why…not…after her first prayer? Why was he so hateful and contrary…27 long earth years? I don’t have all the answers…I only know…(timing) he suddenly was ready to receive…the conditions for new birth took a long 27 years.
How did timing contribute to his sudden readiness to receive the new birth, especially given the inherent condition God tells us is in that man’s heart. God is not in your narrative at all. At the root of this thinking is humanism and the man made evolutionary process, not God’s revealed Word which says,
Jhn 1:12 But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, [even] to them that believe on his name:
Jhn 1:13 Which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God.
How were they able to receive Him and receive the incorruptible seed? By the preaching of the truth through John the Baptist, and his disciples, who was sent. (John 1:6; John 1:15-18;Romans 10:13-17 KJV)
Rom 10:17 So then faith [cometh] by hearing, and hearing by the word of God.
Here is a breakdown of this verse, a verse so often misused by the Christian religion to promote human wisdom, doctrine, study and/or worship of the bible. This is from translating the underlying Greek meaning of each word in Strong’s Concordance:
“belief with the predominate idea of trust (or confidence) whether in God or in Christ, out from hearing with ears and through hearing with ears, that which is or has been uttered by the living voice…”
Since there were no mass produced bibles then, it seems to say, in context with the rest of the chapter, that God chose who to send, what they speak, and who would receive the saving faith to be born from above. So it is today, God is the same!
Many people point to the “Ask, seek, knock” verses in the gospels as the basis for saying that man can ask or seek for righteousness (despite everything God says to the contrary). It is important that believers look at the context in the Gospels and not “gentile-ize” them. Jesus is teaching and preaching, predominantly, to the nation of Israel, and the representative (remnant at that time) sons of the kingdom of God, who have been given ears to hear. Sons of the kingdom have the right to ask, having received the invitation from God already.
In Revelations, the context is Jesus the Glorified Messiah speaking to the ekklesia groups (churches?) that claimed they belonged to Him, not to individuals, Although, within those groups, some divisions did glorify Him. He tells which behaviors and doctrine does not glorify Him and will result in the removal of the groups’ standing (candlestick), i.e., blotted out. And, HE gives ears to hear the specific messages, revelations, of His Will. However, we do have the apostasy upon us and we can see the similar traits of human wickedness still in the christian religion. (Separating is similar to the sheep and goat NATIONS at the end of the age.)
Note: Believers need to find out and understand what the doctrine of the Nicolaitans and that of Balaam are, which is rampant in the apostasy, that has corrupted 2 church groups as well, as well as the other corrupt doctrines and attitudes of the dead divisions in the groups. It is not widely taught in the Christian religion.
Mark, sorry I was so long winded. I wanted to get everything I heard in. Look forward to your comments!
Grace and Peace is in Jesus the Messiah.
Dee
tim says
September 25, 2012 at 11:03 amHi Mark
I did like your story and oh by the way you did not respond the scriptural reference (September 24, 2012 at 9:38 am). That’s all we need. I don’t presume that I think with God’s mind or respond as He would.
Thanks God Bless
Dee B says
September 25, 2012 at 3:24 pmIf you are a true born from above believer, you don’t presume to think, you KNOW you have the mind of Jesus (Christ) and walk accordingly.
Just a simple exhortation to godliness!
Dee
Mark (Cov) says
September 26, 2012 at 6:26 amGuessing your referencing Romans. Which is why I placed 1st John 3:9 in my rely. Will get back with you this afternoon. Duty calls so I need answer.
Have a great day…I still ask you to take a look at 1John and ponder. Its good stuff
Have a great day
Mark (Cov) says
September 27, 2012 at 6:08 amWell tim, I have read Romans 11 several times. I was quite clear, I thought, but am guessing the timing for understanding has not yet been received. Maybe you could give me a little more insight as to your question.
I could quote scripture all day long, but like Jesus, I tell stories that have a scriptural foundation. So glad you liked the story.
Be blessed
tim says
September 24, 2012 at 1:20 pmDee
Key word 1cor 5 vs 5 is may (might) be saved, (not will be saved).
If he, as you said, repents. He is turned over for chastening unto repentance. If chastening was the only reason he was turned over, repentance would not be necessary, because he would be getting in anyways. But, as you said, he will not inherit kingdom of God if there is no repentance.
On the choice sort of both God He chose Man (Whosoever will let him come, whosoever believes on Him, I stand at the door and knock if any man…) and it’s a free gift the we must choose to accept, receive or walk away from.
And trust me there are many more NT scripture on that subject keep praying the Holy Spirit will reveal more for you.
And then pray on them.
God Bless
Dee B says
September 24, 2012 at 4:46 pmHi tim/Tim?,
If you are not both Tims please correct me. It is difficult to answer your comments with short answers. You said: “If chastening was the only reason he was turned over, repentance would not be necessary, because he would be getting in anyways. But, as you said, he will not inherit kingdom of God if there is no repentance.”
It seems you are confused in this thought. This is not what I said nor what I meant. Let’s be clear, none of these requirements concerning repentance and chastening are my ideas, but I believe them.
1Jo 1:9 KJV: If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us [our] sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.
The Holy Spirit said through Paul that unrighteousness will not inherit the kingdom of God. (1 Cor 6:9-10 KJV) I can see that I was not as clear as I could have been in my comment and I lumped 2 of Paul’s thoughts into one. Paul is referring to the specific believer who was to be turned over to Satan for the destruction of his flesh when in the presence of the power of God so that he may be saved. And, the other point I used was that he makes a general statement concerning the continuing behavior of unrighteousness of one who calls himself a “brother”.
I said: “(1 Corinthians 6:7-12 KJV). We are to point out what is carnal, ungodly behavior in one calling himself a “brother”, and separate from him so that God, (in this case using Satan), can deal with him and bring him in repentence for the saving of his spirit to eternal life.”
In both cases, there is no doubt that a true believer who has sinned under the New Covenant of grace must repent of wrongdoing to be cleansed from all unrighteousness. Do you have a problem with God’s requirement or do you want it changed? It is not my command.
See 2 Corinthians 2:10 below especially. Again, the emphasis is on the repentance to salvation of a true born from above believer who truly has eternal life in Jesus! And don’t think that the true believer has a choice of whether to repent or not. He doesn’t because his good works were foreordained by God. (Eph 2:10 KJV; Romans 8:28 KJV) By the way, that brother given to Satan sorrowed with godly sorrow unto repentance. (2 Cor 2:6-8 KJV)
2Cr 7:9 KJV: Now I rejoice, not that ye were made sorry, but that ye sorrowed to repentance: for ye were made sorry after a godly manner, that ye might receive damage by us in nothing.
2Cr 7:10 KJV: For godly sorrow worketh repentance to salvation not to be repented of: but the sorrow of the world worketh death.
If the so-called “brother” is faking it and continues in unrighteousness, as many Christians have done and do today while laboring under the Old Covenant of law, they will perish because they do not have eternal life in Christ! That is not “judging” as you said previously. That is the spiritual reality! You can’t receive eternal life without righteousness. You can only get God’s righteousness from Jesus the Messiah. Paul refers to the simplicity that is in Christ. (2 Cor 11:3 KJV) He is not talking about mind games.
You also said: “Key word 1cor 5 vs 5 is may (might) be saved, (not will be saved).” That word “may” does not mean the possibility that one may or may not have salvation. The 3 words “may be saved” are translated from the Greek together as one expression (S G4982). It means that salvation is the definite end. Look it up!
Finally, you said: “On the choice sort of both God He chose Man (Whosoever will let him come, whosoever believes on Him, I stand at the door and knock if any man…) and it’s a free gift the we must choose to accept, receive or walk away from.”
Again, lets put the scripture in context. (Rev 3:19-22 KJV) The door Jesus is standing outside of is that of the apostatized religious (church?) system having both true believers and fake “believers”. He is not “knocking on the heart of an unbeliever to let Him in” as is taught in Christianity. Those folks inside are “having church and worshiping” without Jesus. They have left Jesus outside the church doors!
Your understanding of God’s doctrine must be built on the foundation of the apostles and prophets, with Jesus as the chief cornerstone, in the context intended. Not on the doctrines and interpretations of men. Eternal life in Jesus is a gift freely given by Father God to whosoever He wants! How can a totally wicked and depraved human choose God? GOD tells us that He sends believers to Jesus and they go to Him because God gives them the faith to go. Otherwise… Man, of himself, will only choose himself, religion, money, power and good works, just like Adam did.
So, Tim/tim, I hope I have given you something to seek God about in sincerity.
Grace and Peace,
Dee
tim says
September 24, 2012 at 7:28 pmYeah it may have seemed a little confusing but in clearer terms here is what was meant. He is turned over to satan for chastening unto repentance. If he repented he would be saved, if he did not the “brother” who turned his back would be lost.
“If the so-called “brother” is faking it and continues in unrighteousness, as many Christians have done and do today while laboring under the Old Covenant of law, they will perish because they do not have eternal life in Christ!” I don’t get this Christians perish because they don’t have Christ. LOL
God Bless
Dee B says
September 25, 2012 at 6:46 amtim/Tim,
You said, “He is turned over to satan for chastening unto repentance. If he repented he would be saved…”
Correct me if I am wrong, but it seems that you are saying that you think that because this man was turned over to Satan for the destruction of his flesh, that he did not already have eternal life, was not already saved. And that repentance only relates to the initial receiving of salvation. If that is how you see it, and even if it’s not, let’s look at what the God tells us about His chastening, regardless of the methods He uses.
Pro 3:11 My son, despise not the chastening of the LORD; neither be weary of his correction:
Isa 26:16 LORD, in trouble have they visited thee, they poured out a prayer [when] thy chastening [was] upon them.
Again, Hebrews interprets Proverbs 3:11 and chastening for us in light of the New Covenant:
Hbr 12:5 And ye have forgotten the exhortation which speaketh unto you as unto children, My son, despise not thou the chastening of the Lord, nor faint when thou art rebuked of him:
Hbr 12:7 If ye endure chastening, God dealeth with you as with sons; for what son is he whom the father chasteneth not?
Hbr 12:11 Now no chastening for the present seemeth to be joyous, but grievous: nevertheless afterward it yieldeth the peaceable fruit of righteousness unto them which are exercised thereby.
God does not chasten unrighteous unbelievers! He only chastens His sons, His children; those that have eternal life through the faith of Jesus, faith in Jesus. It is an act of Divine Love not given to the unrighteous. That brother needed to repent of thinking that it was okay to “have his father’s wife”, as in, having sex with his mother (possibly stepmother). (1 Corinthians 5:1 KJV). Saints have lustful, worldly thinking and its issues, just like heathens, unbelievers, that can and must be dealt with through repentance (renewing the mind by the Holy Spirit in His Word, agreeing with God that it is wicked, sinful, carnal behavior and being sorry for it, and stop doing it). It is better to deal with it personally through prayer, than to wait for God to do it for you, because it’s gonna hurt worse. You can believe that Satan dealing with that man’s flesh was very painful! But it doesn’t mean this guy did not have eternal life! We know he did from reading the context of those verses.
As for the second point, Christians without Christ, how many people do you know or know of, who refer to themselves as Christian and part of the Christian religion, or say that have Christian values or lifestyles and religion, but walk in unrighteousness continually. Some even tell jokes about Jesus, hang around with unbelievers as buddies, practice idolatry with the worship of images (crosses, statues), are superstitious (crossing themselves when they pass a church), believing horoscopes and luck, divination (palm readers, ouija boards), crossing over” TV programs and seances, speaking and praying to the dead, etc., while teaching Sunday school, pastoring and preaching false doctrine with wild signs and wonders, teaching for doctrine the traditions of men (i.e., pagan traditions taught as scriptural, like Christmas), wicked and not having the Holy Spirit of God attack those who do, who are Masons (male and female) in a secret masonic order, elitist (having reserved seats in church and believing they deserve it because they are elders or some such), using other books as scripture or worshiping the bible, having little altars of worship in the home, fornicating, foul mouthed outside of church, doing drugs, loving money having the pride of life for their homes, cars, clothes, etc., sneaky, hypocritical with a big old bible under their arm, encouraging people to do wrong things while trying to control and manipulate, unforgiving, mean, make a show of being “spiritual”, embracing other religious beliefs and having an ecumenical outlook toward them, and on and on in unrighteousness like the Pharisees. There hearts are far from God. And I have been generous! Look at what the scripture calls unrighteousness.
This is what Paul meant by if anyone calls themselves a “brother”, (1 Cor 5:11 KJV), hypocrisy, like the Pharisees. Only the 1st century saints did not refer to themselves as Christians; it was a derisive name given by unbelievers to the saints in Antioch.
We are to be in the world but not of it. In the Christian religion, you can continue to live a life doing those things, and still call yourself a Christian and be a part of the Christianity. There are whole Christian churches and denominations of unbelievers, who don’t know Jesus and have His Life, only doctrine. The name Christian hides that fact. That is what religion is, a Christian without Jesus (Christ). (
Has anyone ever said to you that “You are so heavenly minded that you are no earthly good” because you only want to talk about Jesus? Sad but true.
Grace and peace is in the Messiah,
Dee
tim says
September 25, 2012 at 7:11 amDee
I loved your comments to the second point so true. That’s why I had the (LOL A little sarcasm ) in mine earlier, But you said it much more Eloquently and your are right about your generosity as well. Really on the same page there!!!
Have a blessed Day
Dee B says
September 25, 2012 at 4:40 amBarbara,
You said in another post up top: “Well, if you mean that God is faithful to His part of the covenant, that He won’t renege on the stipulations that He agreed to uphold, you are right. However, if you are saying that His covenant people cannot be unfaithful to their part in the covenant”
You have “stated” this point many times but I haven’t seen concise, relevant answers. Please explain exactly what covenant you mean with scripture references in answer to my questions below. Of course, you don’t have to answer these questions, but it would be good if we were on the same page, or can at least “agree to disagree” about what God has done.
1. Where in the scriptures is the Covenant that you are referring to outlined?
2. What is God’s part of the covenant that you mention? What are the stipulations that He agreed to uphold. Where are they listed?
3. Who are you referring to as God’s covenant people? What is “their part” that you refer to? Where does God tell us who are His covenant people and list “their part” in the covenant?
4. How does Father God deal with His “covenant people” who are ‘unfaithful to their part in the covenant’…”, since we know God hates sin and unrighteousness? What is your scripture reference for this. Explain your understanding of grace as it relates to faith in Jesus.
More Grace and Peace,
Dee
tim says
September 25, 2012 at 9:21 amDee
so which supersessionism do you believe?
Dee B says
September 25, 2012 at 11:38 amWhat is supersessionism?
His,
Dee
tim says
September 25, 2012 at 9:37 amDee
So what IF He (the chastened) despises the chastening, faints under the rebuke, or does not endure the beating his Farther is allowing him to take?
(And remember we have all ready established he is a son.)
God Bless
Dee B says
September 25, 2012 at 12:07 pmtim,
Sons, true children, have faith in their Father and His plans for them. (I keep emphasizing “true” believers because the soul of man with the help of Satan can be steeped in deception. As we have seen, most Christians on a worldwide scale, are fake and religious.)
Hbr 12:11 Now no chastening for the present seemeth to be joyous, but grievous: nevertheless afterward it yieldeth the peaceable fruit of righteousness unto them which are exercised thereby.
And they are learning, by the Holy Spirit, to know Father God’s ways and stand in faith believing…
Rom 8:28-31: And we know that all things work together for good to them that love God, to them who are the called according to [his] purpose.
Rom 8:29 For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate [to be] conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren.
Rom 8:30 Moreover whom he did predestinate, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified.
Rom 8:31 What shall we then say to these things? If God [be] for us, who [can be] against us?
Here’s one personal story. When God allowed my son to develop a punishing chronic illness, I pulled a “prodigal” daughter, and took myself back into the world, almost. I was so angry with God (because I knew I had been a good little “christian”), that after the initial pleading and crying, I couldn’t pray, wouldn’t talk to Him or look at a bible. He kept calling me and I could hear Him, but I was having none of it. Needless to say, the chastening was coming and came big time, and it huuurrrtt. I knew it was Father God and, by His Grace with His peace and healing, I endured my punishment. It was a lovely time of repentance and renewed fellowship. I was in the hospital for 3 months. To this day, I have a limp on my left side. (In the same place Jacob had when he wrestled with God, but I am still waiting for my new name. Remember the little white rock comment you made? LOL!) My son is still not well, for many years but has greatly improved and is on his own. I also know I trained him up and preached the gospel to him. God has a plan. I will see him in glory!
Hope that answers some of your questions.
Grace and Peace is in Jesus.
His,
Dee
Barbara LeFevre says
September 28, 2012 at 3:55 amtim~
Thank you. It’s too bad that so many people have ignored the whole council of God to arrive at their conclusions. Proof texting, as you know, is not the way we are to find truth. Please join me in prayer that those who are being swayed through false teachers will study the Word for themselves.
Your sister in Christ~
Barbara
Clay Graebener says
September 27, 2012 at 12:39 amWow, what great points on both sides. I just wonder is God really going to say “Well right here you were saved but then over here you weren’t then you were again over here but not anymore here”. If that’s the case then to me that person was never saved at all. I also think about Matt 7:23 where Christ says ” I never knew you, Depart from me”. It seems to me that if He never knew them then they were never saved. I know this is nowhere near the caliber of other comments by the way.
Barbara LeFevre says
September 27, 2012 at 4:29 amClay~
Your sentence about what what God might say illustrates that you have not taken the time to personally study the topic of eternal security because it is not about repeatedly having and losing salvation; it’s about having salvation and then losing it forever. The very fact that I wasn’t able to give a reasonable answer, supported by all Scripture, as to whether or not a true, born-again person could lose his or her salvation was what prompted me to find out what God’s Word actually said. May I suggest that you do the same? We are each personally responsible for knowing God’s Word. That’s why He gave it to us, and there is not going to be any appeal to ignorance that will rescue us from the consequences of not interpreting or acting upon it correctly.
I pray that as you seek the truth of God’s Word through study, prayer, fasting, and repentance that He will guide you into all truth as we are promised in John 16:33.
Yours in Christ~
Barbara
Barbara LeFevre says
September 27, 2012 at 4:31 amSorry. The Scripture is actually John 16:13.
Dee B says
September 27, 2012 at 6:37 amHi Clay,
The scriptures reveal the character of Father God, and I don’t see that He will play around with the life He gives someone in Jesus. I agree with what you say about Jesus telling someone to depart from Him because that person never received the Life from Him. (John 5:39-40)
Also, for your edification, “caliber” is a man made measurement of human wisdom, the vanity of man’s knowledge and human understanding.
2Cr 10:12 For we dare not make ourselves of the number, or compare ourselves with some that commend themselves: but they measuring themselves by themselves, and comparing themselves among themselves, are not wise.
If you know you are a true believer, you know what you know because God, the Holy Spirit, has revealed it to you, whether in the scripture or just walking around in His Life. He will use that truth He gave you to minister Life, edify His saints, and exhort them to godliness. You have done that for me today!
Thanks! Grace, Peace and Truth is in Jesus.
Dee
Mark (Cov) says
September 27, 2012 at 9:17 pmClay, I think you know in your heart the truth. The Blood Covenant is written in the body of Jesus Christ.
Clay Graebener says
September 27, 2012 at 8:43 pmBarbra
I understand your position I was pointing more toward how a lot of people view the loss of salvation who surround me. This is a topic that I’ve prayed a lot about. Its a topic that actually plagues a current relationship of mine. I realize their are verses that point to both sides of the argument.I also realize to whom much is given much is required. And believe me I agree that we need to know our word and know it well to be better used by our Lord and for more intimacy with the Father and to become better disciples. You and I can study the bible for the same amount of years and come up with different views on these peripheral topics. My point there is that I do study my bible and also that just because we differ on that subject doesnt mean I will suffer for it. Jesus Christ is view that we all need to agree upon because He’s the only way to the Father of course. There’s going to be people in heaven who only accepted the gospel without much knowledge beyond that. Thats the beauty and genius of the word of God that its main agenda points people to Christ. There are believers (talking about true heart belief) and there are disciples. All disciples are believers but not all believers are disciples. Some are still on the milk while others are on solid food. Neither excludes one from salvation because salvation is a free gift that cant be earned by works. Sanctification however is a different story. The bible speaks of earning crowns as well as having them taken away and it also points to those who make it into heaven with no reward 1 Cor 3:15. It just makes me wonder if someone makes it to heaven with no reward but still have their salvation where would the line be drawn.
Respectfully yours
PS Thanks Dee and Barbra
Barbara LeFevre says
September 28, 2012 at 6:14 amClay~
Thank you for responding. I just have a couple quick thoughts to share. You are right. There “are verses that point to both sides of the argument,” but, unfortunately, too many of God’s people, including many on this site, fail to interpret them together, relying instead on proof texting. This may result in some kind of confidence, albeit false, in a doctrine that many people would like the Word to be saying, but that doesn’t change what it is really saying. I wrote about how all verses can be reconciled to find the truth on the introductory page of Justin’s original lesson (Sept. 19), and I would appreciate it if you would read and comment upon it. So far, no one has commented on it or upon any of the verses that I have given that contradict the belief that believers can lose their salvation. Doesn’t that make you wonder why? Why do so many people, who have come together on this site to learn about God’s Word and to exchange dialogue about it, refuse to even consider the other half of God’s Word?
I do, respectfully, disagree with you that this is a “peripheral topic.” As I wrote elsewhere, if a person believes in eternal security, and it turns out that the Bible does, indeed, teach this, then nobody is worse for the wear, and everyone who was originally saved will be in heaven. However, if it turns out that true, born-again believers can lose their salvation, then some of those who believed in eternal security will be standing before God in judgment rather than salvation because they failed to interpret and act upon God’s Word correctly. Therefore, this isn’t a minor issue; it is second in importance only to salvation itself, and if it is of this great of importance, then we can be absolutely confident that we can, through prayer, study, fasting, and repentance know exactly what God’s Word says, not only for ourselves but to reprove those people who teach false doctrine.
It is only by truly submitting ourselves to God and by truly studying His Word, we can gain a very good sense of at least where some of the lines are with regard to making it to heaven with no reward and those who, they were born again, will not be in heaven. My sister will be in the first category. She had suffered with brain cancer for several years, and God orchestrated events so that I could be with her, not only to heal our relationship but to lead her to Him before I moved to another state. She lived another year before she died, but her days were filled with sleeping and not with being sanctified or doing works for the Lord. She is one who received heaven but will not receive rewards. As far as those who will not make it to heaven, the Bible is replete with definitions and examples and warnings for us to study. In fact, it is one of the most the most thoroughly documented truths in all of God’s Word. I offered just four of these examples to Dee (Sept. 25, 11:35) for her to refute, but neither she nor anyone else has been able to, but that isn’t even the worse part. They didn’t even try. How can so many people on this site claim to have God’s truth, while, at the same time, literally ignoring what He has revealed? Is this not exactly about what we have been warned? Doesn’t II Peter 2:1-2 say, “But there were false prophets also among the people, even as there shall be false teachers among you, who privily shall bring in damnable heresies, even denying the Lord that bought them, and bring upon themselves swift destruction. And many shall follow their pernicious ways; by reason of whom the way of truth shall be evil spoken of”? Doesn’t II Timothy 4:3-4 say, “For the time will come when they will not endure sound doctrine; but after their own lusts shall they heap to themselves teachers, having itching ears; And they shall turn away [their] ears from the truth, and shall be turned unto fables”? This isn’t speaking of something that will happen sometime in the distant future. It is happening right before our eyes, right on this Christian website that thousands of people are reading, and pretty much no one is saying anything.
The bottom line is that the truth is in God’s Word if anyone wants to find it, and no one will be exempt from its truths or its consequences. I have and will continue to hold you up in prayer about the relationship that you have mentioned. I know that you know that God is in control, but it can be hard sometimes. If I may, I’d like to give you one piece of advice that has helped me. Press into the Lord, bringing all things into subjection to Him, and let Him take care of the other people in your life. I wasted too much effort over too many years trying to be what I am not in other people’s lives, the Holy Spirit.
I pray that God will bless you as you seek His wisdom and truth!
Your sister in Christ~
Barbara
Barbara LeFevre says
September 28, 2012 at 7:16 amClay~
I just want to give some clarification. I don’t want to lump all people on this site together. There are new believers who are just beginning to learn the truths in the Bible, and there are people who have been saved for many years but who have either not studied this topic or who have studied it through a filter of eternal security. Finally, there are people, on this topic and others, who have done nothing more than trash the body of Christ, using fallacy to undermine what Christians believe because only they know the real truth of God’s Word. The rest of us have just followed the lies of men. Of course, when it comes down to putting their money where their mouths are, they either leave the site or ignore the challenge to address the very verses and reasoning that prove them wrong. I just have to wonder why there is so little real resistance to these people. I pray that God will wake each one of us up to our personal responsibility to know God’s Word and to wield it righteously against all those who seek to destroy the truth of God’s Word.
Clay Graebener says
September 28, 2012 at 11:29 amHey Barbara
First off I want to commend you on your deep study of this subject. I will honor your request and comment on the verses you posted in the previous segments. I have perused them but promise to take my time and focus this time. I realize your frustration on the lack of a direct response to the scripture you’ve used to support your case. I agree that there are false prophets saturating our churches and public squares and that the itching ears of our day are soaking up the soothing blatherings of no less than vipers.
Also I figured you would not view this as a peripheral subject. I group it into that category because so many differ on it that it causes a break in fellowship that is unnecessary and gives the lost opportunity to blaspheme. I am comfortable with worshiping next to people who differ on this. Not that your not of course. I dont believe people just say a simple prayer and get saved unless that prayer is a result of a true heart recognition that they are sinners and desperately in need of a savior who is none other than our coming King Jesus Christ and believe all the pertinent components about Him that the bible deems necessary. I believe that someone who claims to be a Christian but still walks in habitual sin and has no evidence of ever going through any transformation of the heart is safe to say that they probably dont have a real relationship with Christ. However I cant judge but I can inspect fruit. I believe the bible points out that faith produces works and that if you dont see works then they have a dead useless faith (probably more of a head knowledge that never made it to the heart) that was either never activated or are in a season of grieving the Holy Spirit. I dont believe God will allow anyone to play Him. Meaning I dont believe someone will get saved and runamuck because he has eternal salvation. Again if someone was to behave like that I believe that points to their lack of transformation and rebirth. However thats just my opinion. I used to believe that one could lose their salvation due to long term disobedience that led to unbelief or to a direct defecting from our Lord. I had a friend who made a good case against that belief which I will share on the post pertaining to the verses you’ve listed. I really pushed back on his argument but the Holy Spirit started to change my heart on the matter. I really understand the points your making though. I want you to know that it is my practice to take scripture in accordance with the rest of scripture. Thats why I feel comfortable in my position actually. Hopefully I will convey that on my nest post. Please allow some time so I can appropriately respond. Im a terribly slow at typing. Sorry.
P.S. Im Sorry for the loss of your sister. Im glad she came to the truth. I commend you for your efforts and obedience in sharing the gospel with her. Its great that we will be able to worship the one true God in glory along side her because of Christs sacrifice and your efforts.
Barbara LeFevre says
September 28, 2012 at 2:34 pmClay~
Thank you so much for your comments and your kind words. Of course I think my interpretations are correct, or I wouldn’t be spending so much time posting my comments, but I am, truthfully, surprised that so many people don’t respond as you wrote. All I have ever wanted is an honest examination of Scripture, and if I’m wrong, that’s fine; I just expect that all relevant verses be included for consideration and a reasonable explanation given as to why my reasons are wrong if they are. For example, if the “If” verses aren’t speaking of losing salvation, what is the spiritual truth we are to receive from them?
I appreciate the clarification on why you called this a “peripheral subject.” I actually attend a Baptist church, and they believe in eternal security, but I wouldn’t break fellowship with them because of this. Actually, I gave a copy of my paper to the associate pastor with the hope of starting a dialogue.
Thank you for giving your opinion on eternal security. I appreciate your comments, and while we obviously don’t agree about whether believers can lose their salvation, I do agree that not everyone who claims to be saved or has even said a prayer has been born from above. You also make some excellent points about how works and a changed lifestyle reflect a relationship with Jesus. Even if we don’t agree, at least you have agreed to study what I wrote. I certainly would never suggest that anyone just take my opinion for truth without personal study, and I look forward to what you have to say.
I know that there are a lot of scenarios that can be thrown into a discussion on this topic, and I think that many of them can be answered through the Parable of the Sower, so I have included my thoughts on it. Please let me know what you think.
Luke 8:11-15
Verse 11 says that the seed is the Word of God, and each subsequent verse tells us what happens to the seed depending upon the soil in which it is scattered. Verse 12 is about those who are unsaved, those on the “wayside.” Because they are unsaved, the devil snatches the word out of their hearts “lest” (except that, in order to avoid) “they should believe and be saved.” Skipping, first, down to verse 15, the seed here falls on “good ground,” speaking of those who are saved and have an “honest and good heart,” who, after they have heard the word, keep it, and then act upon it, bearing “fruit with patience,” all characteristic of a Holy Spirit-filled life. It is verses 13 and 14 that illustrate that one can lose salvation. We know that the people in verse 13 are born again because they “receive the word with joy” and “for a while believe.” However, because they have not studied and shown themselves approved by God (II Tim. 2:15) and have not grown in the grace and knowledge of Jesus Christ (II Pet.3:18) as commanded, we are told that they “have no root” in themselves. Consequently, “in time of temptation,” they “fall away,” meaning they ‘apostatize.’ Similarly, those people in verse 15 are saved because we are told, “they…heard” and “went] forth,” actions of a believer. However, just as in the story of the rich young ruler, these people were not willing to die to themselves, to surrender all to the Lord, so they become “choked with cares and riches and pleasures of [this] life, and bring no fruit to perfection.” The verse says that they have fruit, which is the evidence of salvation, but because their loyalties and energies are spent in worldly pursuits and not godly ones, the fruit that began to grow never became fully ripened, or perfected, by a life submitted to the Holy Spirit. As we know, parables are short stories that present spiritual truths. If verses 13 and 14 of this passage aren’t about losing one’s salvation, then what is their purpose?
Please don’t feel under any pressure to finish quickly. Typing speed aside ☺, I would rather have you spend a goodly amount of time to investigate both sides of the argument rather than hurry through it.
I pray that our hearts and spiritual eyes will be continually open to the leading of the Holy Spirit as we study the Word.
Your sister in Christ~
Barbara
P.S. Thank you for your comments on my sister. Even as I was typing it, I started to cry because of the goodness of our loving God.
Barbara LeFevre says
October 1, 2012 at 2:15 pmHi Clay~
Even though my response isn’t all that long, I haven’t been able to spend the time I needed on it today. I will have it posted tomorrow. Sorry.
Yours in Christ~
Barbara
Barbara LeFevre says
October 2, 2012 at 2:19 pmClay~
You have really opened up the door to a big discussion on just a few statements on this one, Clay! ☺ Please forgive me if I write something that you already know. Because we don’t know each other, sometimes it’s hard to know what to write.
Although we know that the NT is the witness, or fulfillment, of OT prophecy, it is even more. It is one of the many applications of I Corinthians 15:46 in that what took place in the physical in the OT was a foreshadow of what was going to take place in the spiritual in the NT, and from this, we can understand what happened to the nation of Israel and Moses as well as to believers of the new covenant with regard to God’s message of salvation.
Yes, Israel experienced a physical deliverance (“saved from Egypt”) through Moses just as we experience a spiritual deliverance through Jesus, but this has nothing to do with whether God “[turned] His back on them” or whether He will turn His back on us. In both Testaments, after the people are saved, they go into the wilderness for a time of testing (Deut. 8:2, Jam. 1:2-3) on their way to the Promised Land (Canaan/Israel, heaven respectively). One of the spiritual truths that we are to realize from the fact that the original group, save Caleb and Joshua, did not enter the Promised Land is that God’s people can very much lose their salvation and that they lost it, not because “they were never saved to begin with,” because they obviously were, but because they did not continue in their faith to the end (Heb. 3:12), exactly what we are told in the NT (e.g. Rom. 11:22, Heb. 3:14, I Jn. 2:24). God’s people have always been saved by faith, and this applies to initial salvation as well as final salvation, which the story of the Israelites dramatically illustrates.
Another truth that comes out of this particular story is that God, while allowing His people to reject Him through their free will, always keeps His side of the covenant, evidenced through the fact that He is a remnant God. For example, although the greater part of the physical house of Israel died in the wilderness, He took a remnant, those who walked by faith not by sight, into the Promised Land. Similarly, the greater part of the physical house of Israel rejected Christ as the Messiah, but a remnant formed His church. We also know that God has saved a remnant of 144,000 from the house of Israel for Himself, so what we can conclude from these examples is that God will, indeed, turn His back on His covenant people but only when they turn their back on Him, through apathy or rebellion. This is the exact purpose for the admonition given in Hebrews 3:7-19, that we, as His second-covenant people, don’t make the same mistake as His first-covenant people and reap the same consequences of not entering His rest, the Promised Land of Heaven.
With regard to Moses, I agree that he is saved but not that he “…was disqualified from receiving some very special rewards,” and the reason can be found in foreshadowing in how the physical relinquishes to the spiritual as well as in biblical ‘types.’ (Note: I had originally written the following to someone who was rejecting Christianity for Judaism. She seemed wholly ignorant of many things, so this is part of what I wrote her. I didn’t want to go back and edit everything; consequently, there are things that, again, I know that you know, so please don’t think that I am talking down to you.)
We know that salvation is not through the law of Moses but only through faith in the grace of Jesus Christ (Jn. 1:17). As you also know, Joshua is the English spelling of the Hebrew Yeshua, meaning “Yahweh is salvation.” In the OT, God’s people were led by Moses, but Moses never entered the Promised Land of Canaan (Israel) with God’s people; it was Joshua who led them into the Promised Land. Moses represents the law, and when he broke the law (Num. 20:10-12), God denied him entrance into the Promised Land. In light of everything God did through Moses and how Moses faithfully followed God, this seems harsh, but the point being made here is that whoever breaks the law, even once, is denied entrance into the Promised Land (Canaan/heaven) because the whole of God’s holy law has been broken (Deut. 27:26, Gal. 3:10, Jam. 2:10). This is because the law, as the exact representation of God’s absolute perfection, only recognizes absolute perfection, and any breach of it demands godly justice, meaning the sin must be paid for by death (Rom. 6:23), hence all the OT animals sacrifices. The law does not recognize grace, and it is only through grace that one can enter the Promised Land (Canaan/heaven).
The law is good (Rom. 7:12), but it is weak (imperfect and incomplete) through the flesh (Rom. 8:3), as evidenced through Moses, so it was through the grace of God in the person/type of Joshua (Yeshua/”Yahweh is salavation”) that the people were allowed into Canaan. Just as God changed Abram’s name (exalted Father) to Abraham (father/chief of a multitude, Gen. 17:5) to initiate His plan of redemption, to show through whom (Abraham) the child of promise would come through faith (Isaac/Jesus), God also changed Oshea’s name (salvation) to Jehoshua (Yahweh is salvation, Num. 13:16) to show by Whom salvation would be available to all who believed in the promise by faith and not the law. It was not Ishmael, the child of Hagar, a bondservant and slave, through whom God’s purposes would be accomplished but through Isaac, the child of the freewoman, the child of promise through faith (Gen. 17). Isaac is the OT type of the NT child of promise of Christ, a result of Abraham and Sarah’s faith in God’s promise. Ishmael, on the other hand, is the result of Abraham lack of faith in God to provide the child of promise. It is the example of man’s flesh seeking to usurp God’s plan by attempting to provide the means of man’s salvation through his own flesh, his own works and not in faith in God.
Moses’ dying is also a picture of the law dying to make way for a better way, the better covenant based upon the grace of Jesus. In other words, the law (Moses) points to salvation (Joshua/Yeshua), but it cannot give salvation; only Yeshua, through His grace, can do that, can take one into the final Promised Land (heaven) as foreshadowed in Deuteronomy 1:38b when Moses says, “for he [Joshua] shall cause Israel to inherit it [Canaan].” This is what is being indicated in Deuteronomy 31:3 when Moses says, “The LORD thy God, he will go over before thee, [and] he will destroy these nations from before thee, and thou shalt possess them: [and] Joshua, he shall go over before thee, as the LORD hath said.” This is what is meant by John 1:17 which says, “For the law was given by Moses, [but] grace and truth came by Jesus Christ.”
What the people and progression of events reveals, then, is not that Moses was denied some “very special rewards” but that God was revealing His plan of salvation through him.
I hope I have answered your comments. Let me know what you think.
Yours in Christ~
Barbara
Dee B says
September 28, 2012 at 8:04 amMorning Clay,
Just a few short comments to some things you said.
First, the only people walking around in heaven will be those chosen by the Grace of God to have eternal life by faith in Jesus. (John 1:12-13 KJV) They may not have deeper doctrine, but they will have knowledge of foundation doctrine or they could not see Jesus to believe in Him! They will know who Jesus is, why He was sent and by Who (Father God), His connection to the New Covenant Grace of God and the nation of Israel. Doesn’t matter what you did with it on earth because those works were foreordained by God. (Eph 2:10 KJV) Those are the questions that need to be answered, not will you lose the “eternal” “Grace” God has given you! That answer should be obvious, but it is not.
Second, we don’t all have to agree. That is not God’s way. The idea that we should is a humanistic, ecumenical, vain philosophy. God wants His saints to know His mind, His doctrine, His Beloved Son, for ourselves, and not to be concerned with getting anyone to agree with you. That is the Holy Spirits territory through the anointed Word. Anything else, including the christian doctrine of “discipleship” is legalism. Father God knows everyone won’t agree and uses that to point out which ones are approved by Him, and which ones aren’t. Learn God’s ways.
1Cr 11:19 For there must be also heresies among you, that they which are approved may be made manifest among you.
Finally, you said, “I do study my bible and also that just because we differ on that subject doesnt mean I will suffer for it.”
Clay, what you have said is true. Humans and religious Christians, love using intimidation tactics and legalism to get people on board. Learn the intent of God, His plan and purpose for Jesus and His brethren. Ask God to take you behind the scenes to see His view and perspective, not just the scripture verses. A person can pick out verses and make them agree or disagree with whatever they want. Hitler did it. But God’s heart is not something you can twist. Learn His heart, what is important to Him, and then no one can sway your thinking about the foundational truths. God will build on those truths to move you to maturity, if He permits. (Hebrews 5:12-14 KJV; Hebrews 6:1 KJV)
Learn what Father God and His Son Jesus says about the heart of man. It will be an eye opener as far as the “free will” doctrine and eternal salvation (not eternal security) is concerned.
Great Love, Great Grace and a Peace Passing All understanding is in Jesus the Messiah,
His,
Dee
P.S. I use the King James Version English translation of the bible because it is based on an underlying Greek translation (called Received Text) that has been documented with a concordance where we can see the Greek and Hebrew meanings of the translated English words. It is not 100% translated accurately into English, with so many different English words being used, but it is faithful to the Greek and Hebrew languages underneath. This is excellent because when you are studying the scriptures with the Holy Spirit, He can show you what He means if man’s view is wrong. I do use other translations for comparison but 95% of them (NIV, ESV, etc.) don’t have concordances. I don’t rely on any translation where what it is translated from is hidden!
Neat huh! DB
Barbara LeFevre says
September 28, 2012 at 10:43 amDee~
I also use the King James, so any time you want to reconcile the four examples that I gave with the verses you use, then we can find out the truth of God’s Word because it isn’t about I think or about what you think; it’s about the Word of God, all of it, going forth as He intended. I’m not trying to be difficult with you or antagonistic toward you. I just expect anyone who makes claims that you do to be able to back them up with the whole council of God, which is not unreasonable, is it? In addition, I can’t understand why someone who claims to receive truth by revelation and who mocked me for getting the truth by studying the Word would not jump at the chance of telling me why the verses I’ve given and the reasoning I’ve given are wrong. Dee, it just doesn’t make any sense.
In an earlier post, you cited II Timothy 4:2, which says, “Preach the word; be instant in season, out of season; reprove, rebuke, exhort with all longsuffering and doctrine.” You cited this verse to give credibility to your involvement on this site. Well, it isn’t a matter of just telling people they are wrong; it’s about replacing the lie with the truth. This is the whole point of God’s Word, so rather than following me around and writing behind my back as though you are the personal gatekeeper of God’s Word sent to rescue everyone from my comments, why don’t you face my examples head on because, as we all know, they are a part of God’s Word, and ignoring them doesn’t change that fact, so the question still remains. Can you or can you not refute the four examples I gave? I’m sure I’m not the only one on this site who is wondering why you haven’t.
Barbara
Dee B says
September 28, 2012 at 12:42 pmBarbara,
Please, I am not following you around. Most of the time I don’t see your post until I have submitted mine and the website updates. My responses are to what the poster has said, not what you have posted!
You said, “Can you or can you not refute the four examples I gave? I’m sure I’m not the only one on this site who is wondering why you haven’t.”
My responses to your issues are all over the site. You are the only one wondering! I have spoken regarding your Revelation verses and the other points, but in the context of eternal life. Like any one else, if what I have declared by the grace of God is so important to you, read what I have already written. People who really want to know the doctrine “Dee” is teaching about what God is saying in these last and evil days, can and do read them, ask questions, make comments, and take the word to God, or not! I am not the only one who believes that true believers will not lose what God has given them because of their faith in Christ. Even the moderator, Justin Alfred, has said the same thing, although I reject the doctrine of eternal security because I see it as a man made, contrived Christian doctrine (creed). If you read what I exhort believers and ask honest questions, maybe you would have answers, if that is what you want. But you are not doing that. You are falsely proclaiming that I, Dee, have not answered your questions in your “study”.
For your reasons, you want a direct, one for one, tit for tat, squaring off with me concerning God’s word on “eternal security” and your “study”. I will not do it. It is not important in the context of God’s grace, so get over it. Take it to your pastor. So there you go.
What is important is that true believers, born from above by the Spirit of God, know that God is faithful and that He is the one responsible for completing their walk in eternal life here on the earth, and bringing them to Glory. He is not a liar, and will complete that which His sons and daughters commit to Him.
2Ti 1:12 For the which cause I also suffer these things: nevertheless I am not ashamed: for I know whom I have believed, and am persuaded that he is able to keep that which I have committed unto him against that day.
What you are doing is not seemly with you recent posts on different blogs. People do not have to respond to your posts. To berate them, and me, and claim that they are being led by false teachers because they are not reading and responding to your posts on eternal security is wrong. It is religious, legalistic intimidation of people using this blog. My prayer is that people will not be intimidated and will let you know that. Some have begun to do that. I hope the censors see it also.
Grace, Peace and Much Love is in Jesus the Messiah,
Dee
Barbara LeFevre says
September 28, 2012 at 2:57 pmDee~
With regard to your comment that I “…want a direct, one for one, tit for tat, squaring off with me concerning God’s word on “eternal security” and [my] ‘study,'” is simply not true. All that I have asked is for you to refute the four examples that I gave if you can. You wrote that your “… responses to [my] issues are all over the site,” so I must have missed your response on the four examples. Please give me the date so that I can read what you have said about them.
As to the rest of your comments, I will leave it to the Lord to judge between you and me.
Barbara
Barbara LeFevre says
September 28, 2012 at 3:15 pmI have just one more clarification. I don’t believe that just because a person believes in eternal security that it automatically translates into that person being classified as a “false teacher.” There is much more that fits into that definition. I do believe, however, that some very honest and dedicated believers have not fully studied the whole of God’s Word on the topic.
Barbara LeFevre says
September 29, 2012 at 5:07 amDee~
If I have falsely accused you of following me around, then I sincerely apologize.
Barbara
Dee B says
September 29, 2012 at 11:35 amBarbara,
You are not sincere in your responses and comments on this board, which go all over the world, and wrongly influence people. You wrote to me, among other untruths to others:
“I’m not trying to be difficult with you or antagonistic…I can’t understand why someone who claims to receive truth by revelation and who mocked me for getting the truth by studying the Word…”
I did not mock you. It is so easy to lie, deliberately misinterpret and make yourself look like a victim, when you refer to another post but don’t cite it. What I said, and what you (and anyone reading those posts), KNOW I believe, is the truth of the scripture (2 Corinthians), which you consistently reject:
“Is reading, researching the underlying meaning of the translators words in scripture and praying about it, an “endeavor” believers should do? Of course! But the interpretation of the will of God must come from God, friends….Can you go to Christian seminary? Yes, but you will NOT get a living knowledge of the things of God except He give it to you through your born from above spirit…by revelation from the Spirit of God…to our soul’s mind.”
That is giving Glory to God and proclaiming, according to His word, that His spiritual truth originates from Him, and not from man’s mind in academic studying. The fact that you didn’t cite my true words is deceitful and antagonistic. You have done this many times and to other people. Why do you do this?
Many bloggers have responded to your questions in so many ways, both for and against your views. But you are not sincere in your search for the spiritual truth of God’s mind on eternal “security”. That is evidenced by your behavior and slander that believers are under a “false teacher”, who don’t agree with or want to comment on your “study”. You appear to be desperate and dangerous to the undermining of the faith of believers and free discourse on this blog, with your spiteful snarking and insisting that believers have not considered the “whole counsel of God” because they don’t agree with you.
Once again, I am exhorted:
2Ti 2:23 But foolish and unlearned questions avoid, knowing that they do gender strifes.
I am working every day on obeying this serious admonition from the Holy Spirit. I am not always successful. To me, unlearned questions include your uninspired “study”, and the rejection of the NATION of Israel included in God’s new covenant in your christian replacement theology. You have written, and I have read, your “ideas” on these “subjects”. No comment.
Peace and Grace are in Yeshua Ha Mashiyach,
Dee
Barbara LeFevre says
September 29, 2012 at 12:33 pmDee~
You wrote, “To me, unlearned questions include your uninspired “study”, and the rejection of the NATION of Israel included in God’s new covenant in your christian replacement theology.”
~As to your first comment about my “uninspired ‘study,'” you are more than welcome to tell me what the correct inspired interpretation of my four examples are if I am wrong.
~As to you second comment about my “rejection of the NATION of Israel included in God’s new covenant in your christian replacement theology,” I will submit the comments I posted on September 14 to Jerry:
When my Jewish grandmother accepted Jesus as her Messiah, she considered herself a Christian. Other Jewish people don’t, preferring to stay connected with their Jewish culture and traditions. In God’s sight, there is no difference; all believers belong to the spiritual house of Israel.
However and sadly, there has been a lot of misinformation and miscommunication on both sides although it is usually the “Christian” side that gets most of the flack for its supposed nonacceptance of its Jewish brothers and sisters in Christ, so let me relate a personal experience that might shed some light on this, beginning with a little background. My dad was a non-practicing Jew, so there was nothing Jewish in my upbringing. However, several years ago, I was invited to a Messianic congregation for the blessing of a baby. The rabbi taught on Paul, and I enjoyed his sermon very much, but at some point, he interjected a very thoughtless and incorrect comment about “Christians.” Needless to say, as a Christian, I was really taken aback that he would say such a thing. A week or so later, I found myself at a social event where this same person was present. As I was sitting there, again pondering what he had said, the Lord put something on my heart, and it was that there are some Messianic Jews who are guilty of the very thing thing about which they accuse Christians, that of spiritual elitism. It is my prayer that the walls between these two groups will come down so that we can walk in the true freedom of fellowship that God intended.
~As to everything else you wrote, I will again say that I will let the Lord judge between you and me.
Barbara
Mark (Cov) says
September 27, 2012 at 9:06 pmDee, I know Jesus was speaking to the Jews. The new covenant did not begin until after the cross. So the book of Acts is the beginning for gentiles. But even then, Peter and the rest only focused on the Jews. That is why after a certain amount of time Yahweh introduced Himself to Saul…and a new birth produced Saul into Paul. God does not do a thing on a whim…even the time is chosen for the best results. Why did Jesus speak to the Jews? Simple, the nation of Israel being taught and believing in The Eternal One was supposed to teach other nations, not keep truth hidden away. Jesus kept reminding them they were supposed to be a light and so provoked anger. Paul is the Jewish example of a teacher sent to the world. Before this is over, Israel will be a light to the world. Which is why The Middle East is ate up with war and Iran wants to annihilate Israel. Hell does not want the anointing, The Light to peculate from Israel and preach to the world about The Messiah. Dee, the only true difference from a true God fearing Jew and a true God fearing Christian is timing. The Jew believes The Messiah is coming and Christians believe The Messiah is coming again.
I am not a teacher or believer in humanism. A simple truth in spirit can be observed in nature. Example…why do trees lose leaves in the winter? Is it because the temps change?….no. How ever many choices at guessing people come up with, science has finally learned a biblical truth. It is the lack of light. That my friend is a spiritual law, and science finally caught up with the truth. In the absence of light…Gods light, people perish. Yet science for all its learned ones, is still struggling over so many truths that you and I can find in scripture. Nature was not only put in place for us, and Father God to enjoy. Nature from the stars above to the many venues here on this planet in some way introduce us to The Father and His truth.
As to timing….God created time. Time was placed here to bring sin to a conclusion. In eternity, is there time? When this world is rolled up, sin has run it course, and hell is thrown into the lake of fire will time continue or will The Creator place us and the new earth in eternity?
God resides in eternity. Because sin entered The Garden, time began so that it would have a “time limit”. What I have asked you to do is step into spirit thinking, or if you want a scripture reference…the mind of Christ 1 Corinthians 2:10-16…allow The Holy Spirit to reveal truths to you. His ways are not our boxed in, denominational only, do what a pastors says because the priest is the only one hearing from God kind of ways. In the beginning, The Father had communion with the human family right there at home. The Creator still wants communion in the home.
To be honest, I am struggling to understand why or what you do not understand about timing. The Creator did not breath into Adam until the work was completed. That set a precedent…and yes it is logical as well. To be born again, the work…the preparation of ones heart must be complete. Looking at a mother with a child in her womb. Is every child born precisely at nine months? No. Normally the child is born when the creative work is done. And what it takes for the heart of a child to be ready to be born again is different from an adults heart. A child is still tender and completely trust The Creator while an adult argues with The Holy Spirit. God is sovereign, but he gave mankind the responsibility to choose life. He is not willing that any should perish. And I take God at His word. If He is not willing that any should perish, then He will do what He can to educate, guide, persuade, and woo the human heart. But in the end it is still a choice.
I do not give page after page of scripture. I can, but why? Jesus is my example. He would give a reference then tell a story. Jesus used common sense, so I lean that direction as well. We are exhorted to get wisdom, and with all our getting obtain understanding…Proverbs 4:7 I can give you a key (wisdom) but if you do not understand the keys function in turning the tumblers in the lock (understanding) then what good is the key? Each key is made for a specific lock. Some for doors yet others for your car. Jesus spent large amounts of time <— teaching not only the learned but those that were not daily at Temple? Why? Simple. All good Jews know the festivals, observed Shabbat knowing that Shabbat ushers in the queen, knew that Rosh Hashanna not only is The Head of the year but more than likely was the birth day of Adam,etc. A good Jew at the age of 12 had/has a bar mitzvah. And to be honest Dee, that child in preparation for his bar mitzvah has more scripture learning than most pastors that have sat in a seminary being taught by a humanist professor. To give a litany of scripture after scripture after scripture will lose the attention of even the most patient. But to pick a subject, a scripture and tell a story to assist in understanding holds the audience and allows The Holy Spirit to explain to the heart. True enough, a story brings disgust or mocking from the heart of a pharisee but a story grounded in truth in time will reach the heart that longs for The Father. Yes, I introduce with scripture…even dig into the original language. But Yahweh created a story line. Jesus sat with the children and the masses introducing truth with a story. Why? Because they knew the scripture since it was taught at least every Shabbat. And that my friend is why I tell a story…..it is my way to introduce others to my Father God.
Have a great day.
Dee B says
September 28, 2012 at 10:45 amMornin’ Mark!
I love the fellowship also. The Holy Spirit tells us that if we walk in the light and He is in the light, then we have fellowship with one another and the blood of Jesus cleanses us from all unrighteousness. (1 John 1:7 KJV)
I want to move past a stumbling block for us first. You said, “To be honest, I am struggling to understand why or what you do not understand about timing.”
I agree with what you say about timing, that there is no time in eternity, because God shows that to me also. I have no problem with seeing that timing is bound in earth surrounding the plan of God for Jesus, God’s nation of Israel, the body of Christ His saints, and the destruction of wickedness. There is no time in eternity.
You said, “God resides in eternity.” In fact, eternity resides in God, His creation, and true saints of God are already in eternity because we have eternal Life. We know the Father God and Jesus (John 17:3, Eph 1:3), and because the new spirit is eternal, we are placed in the eternal realm. We believe this by faith because only faith has access to the eternal, to God.
So we are in understanding together there. What I said I saw was not scriptural was that you placed emphasis on timing and conditions from the human side in your thinking, rather than on the God who is the Creator of timing and conditions. Maybe you are thinking of Him in you mind, but you are not communicating His reality in your writing. For example, in your explanation, the gist is: “Example…why do trees lose leaves in the winter? Is it because the temps change?….no.” Well, why is it? You give no answer and God is not in that picture! Well, God shows us that He created trees to do whatever He decided them to do with their leaves! That is one important answer. He gives humans the ability to see and research specifically how He does it. But, trees shedding leaves is not spiritual truth apart from God’s sovereignty in allowing it happen!
You also say, “…science has finally learned a biblical truth. It is the lack of light. That my friend is a spiritual law, and science finally caught up with the truth. In the absence of light…Gods light, people perish. Yet science for all its learned ones, is still struggling over so many truths that you and I can find in scripture.”
Science has not learned the truth that people perish in the “absence of light…Gods light…” If you go back to your scripture quote of 2 Corinthians, the Holy Spirit teaches that man’s wisdom will never see light or spiritual truth. In fact, man’s vain philosophy and science HAS found it in the “Bible”, but they can not understand it or agree with it in the context of God’s sovereignty. It is foolishness to them. We know this because God, the Holy Spirit, has helped us to understand God’s truth that Jesus is the Light.
But my point is that you say you understand. But again, you stop short of communicating these truths in relationship to the Light of the World. I am not saying you are a “believer in humanism”, as you say, but in the Christian religion, there is so much doctrine based on humanistic philosophy that we spout it thinking it is God’s wisdom. We must examine ourselves, our thoughts. (2 Corinthians 10:4-8 KJV) Humanism does not love, trust, believe or give God His glory, except in secondary or tertiary referrals for appearance sake. It’s doctrine is deceptive, insidious, seductive. The humanistic way of thinking is based in man’s soul understanding and body connection, birthed with Adam and Eve by Satan. Everything is interpreted from what humanity has an understanding of, everything. Revelation from God, the revealing of God’s eternal truths are not understood by humanity, so man’s wisdom brings “truth” out of reality and compares them to nature or man’s natural behavior. That is the deceptiveness of humanistic thought. Mark, it is not spiritual. It mimics spirituality by finding so-called “spiritual” truth in the creations of God.
Further, you said, ” Nature was not only put in place for us, and Father God to enjoy. Nature from the stars above to the many venues here on this planet in some way introduce us to The Father and His truth.” The scriptures, the truth and reality of God, teach us that we can only learn that there is a powerful, eternal God from His creation, but we can never know Him, His Grace or His salvation in Jesus. (Romans 1:20-21)
The Christian Religion says using natural things and nature is what Jesus did with using parables, but that is not what He did. He started by giving His Father glory first, always! The kingdom of God is like… My Father is the husbandman,…Leaves on a the fig tree as a sign of the coming of the kingdom of God …except a corn of wheat fall and die it abides alone, etc., etc. He never, in His preaching or teaching, started at the human understanding of man towards God, Jew or gentile, EXCEPT to show the wickedness and total depravity inherent in man’s heart and mind against His Father. He never indicated that there was any goodness in man, including His human self, or indicated that humankind understood spiritual things, Jews or gentiles, unless He said it was given to them by His Father. Check it out for yourself.
You said, “I do not give page after page of scripture.”
It is not really necessary to do that unless directed to. If the true believer is learning to have an intuitive knowledge of the mind of Christ, as revealed in the scriptures, which is obtained through spending time with the Holy Spirit in the scriptures and in Life, He will understand your context. But, this is a Christian website where knowledge is based, primarily, on where you can find it in the scriptures to back up your point or your Christian doctrine. Not on what is God’s mind and intention. Many people on this website believe that God has thrown away His Holy people, or sucked them totally into Christianity, despite the Father’s promises to the contrary, and that He has created the body of Jesus to include true believers, Jew and gentile. Many of the believers are yet babes, newly born into the spirit of Jesus, and many of us are just a little more than babes, like me. Discernment is needed.
The final thing I want to point out is, you said, “Yahweh introduced Himself to Saul.”
It was not the manifestation of Father God to Saul. It was the resurrected, glorified Jesus the Messiah, King of Kings, Lord of Lords, Lamb of God, who taught Paul the good news (gospel) of grace in the fulfillment of the new covenant in Himself, AND the existence of the “ekklesia”, the body of the Messiah” (church?). This is why we must go to Paul to get an understanding of Grace under the New Covenant and the body of Christ. Religion does not like this and many mainline denominations in Christianity, teach that Paul and his doctrine is not considered inspired by God. How do we know this? The scriptures say so!
Grace and much Peace is in Jesus the Messiah,
Dee
Sean Budde says
September 28, 2012 at 9:05 pm(1 John 2:1-6) My little children, these things write I unto you, that ye sin not. And if any man sin, we have an advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous: And he is the propitiation for our sins: and not for ours only, but also for [the sins of] the whole world. And hereby we do know that we know him, if we keep his commandments. He that saith, I know him, and keepeth not his commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him. But whoso keepeth his word, in him verily is the love of God perfected: hereby know we that we are in him. He that saith he abideth in him ought himself also so to walk, even as he walked.
(Ephesians 5:2) And walk in love, as Christ also hath loved us, and hath given himself for us an offering and a sacrifice to God for a sweetsmelling savour.
(1 John 3:14-19) We know that we have passed from death unto life, because we love the brethren. He that loveth not [his] brother abideth in death. Whosoever hateth his brother is a murderer: and ye know that no murderer hath eternal life abiding in him. Hereby perceive we the love [of God], because he laid down his life for us: and we ought to lay down [our] lives for the brethren. But whoso hath this world’s good, and seeth his brother have need, and shutteth up his bowels [of compassion] from him, how dwelleth the love of God in him? My little children, let us not love in word, neither in tongue; but in deed and in truth. And hereby we know that we are of the truth, and shall assure our hearts before him.
(1 John 2:9-11) He that saith he is in the light, and hateth his brother, is in darkness even until now. He that loveth his brother abideth in the light, and there is none occasion of stumbling in him. But he that hateth his brother is in darkness, and walketh in darkness, and knoweth not whither he goeth, because that darkness hath blinded his eyes.
(1 John 1:5-7) This then is the message which we have heard of him, and declare unto you, that God is light, and in him is no darkness at all. If we say that we have fellowship with him, and walk in darkness, we lie, and do not the truth: But if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship one with another, and the blood of Jesus Christ his Son cleanseth us from all sin.
Mark (Cov) says
September 29, 2012 at 6:42 am““This is the crisis we’re in: God-light streamed into the world, but men and women everywhere ran for the darkness. They went for the darkness because they were not really interested in pleasing God. Everyone who makes a practice of doing evil, addicted to denial and illusion, hates God-light and won’t come near it, fearing a painful exposure. But anyone working and living in truth and reality welcomes God-light so the work can be seen for the God-work it is.”” John 3:20-21 MSG
Dee, I never said Father God introduced Himself to Saul. I said Yahweh…the title you may use is Jehovah but since the letter “J” in not in Hebrew, I tend to use Yahweh. I have not spoken in riddles. And in my mind it seems quite obvious God is light in reference to the tree/leaf, etc. I have not come here to quibble…strife is just something best left in the enemies camp. Father God knows my heart and if you have known The Father then you must know His Son and of course His Son introduced us to The Holy Spirit. If you know those guys, then you know me for He abides in me and I in Him. Evidently I must communicate on a lower more common level…must have learned that while teaching in prisons, etc.
Thank you for all your corrections and critiques. It has been an interesting dialog
Have a great weekend.
Dee B says
September 29, 2012 at 10:01 amDear Mark,
You sound offended! My understanding from you was that we were having a conversation – you have comments about what I wrote, and I have comments about what you wrote, in the Lord. Is that not what you said you were looking forward to, the conversation? So what is it that you think we are quibbling about? You don’t say?
For some reason, you are now interpreting my comments in an antagonistic way. Why? I never claimed you spoke in riddles. I certainly was not commenting on whether or not you were a child of God, or even the level of your communication skills! You have assumed this. Why? My comments were regarding the order of God and creation, and your thinking about it as you revealed in your writings. My observations were that “in writing your thoughts”, you seemed to place man and creation’s response in the world, above the fact that God is the originator of all things, including man’s responses and heart readiness, as revealed in His word. (Psalm 14:1-3) Is that a “skills” observation, because you write well otherwise? It certainly does not mean you are an unbeliever. So, where is the quibbling?
We had an agreeing understanding about several things we wrote about, including eternity and the new covenant. But now, you see them as “all your corrections and critiques”. Why are mine this way and not yours? Why has that come about? What is influencing that view?
Did you have a problem with my comments on humanism and how it manifests in our thoughts and doctrines. I write this not because I don’t have to deal with this also, but to exhort us from the scriptures because all of us have to deal with this, being in the world. I certainly did not write that you were a “believer in humanism”, as you know. My exhortation was that all saints of God are told, emphatically and continually, to renew our minds in His word, while presenting our bodies as a living sacrifice. Is this not true? (Romans 12:1-3) Do you have a problem with my view of the christian religion being the basis for the apostasy that is now in the world, and deepening?
Don’t we need God’s understanding of what Grace, the free gift is? That we receive it from God without working for it, that is the gift of a renewed spirit of man and connection, reconciliation with God? It is deeper than just “unmerited favor”, which is a doctrine in the Christian religion. Grace relates to new life, a new spirit, in Jesus the Messiah, given by God the Father, and so much more. Is this not true?
God shows us that renewing our minds means taking on His mind, thoughts, by the help of the Holy Spirit so that we can be transformed, body, soul and spirit, into the being the image of Christ. Is this also true? Where, again, is this quibbling?
Christ always talked about and did His Father’s will. Our spirits are already made alive, but not our minds–they must be renewed. He shows that renewing means seeking to understand His wisdom, and His ways, (Col 3:1-3), FOR HIS PURPOSE, towards bringing destruction to the world, the flesh and the devil; its systems and wickedness sustained by the devil, and placing the body of Christ and the redeemed nation of Israel into a new earth, new heaven and New Jerusalem. I didn’t set that up as God’s goal. He progressively revealed this doctrinal truth throughout His scriptures:
1Jo 3:8b…For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that he might destroy the works of the devil.
Mark, you did write that Yahweh introduced Himself to Saul. Maybe that is not what you meant to write, since you know that the new birth comes from Jesus, but you wrote: “That is why after a certain amount of time Yahweh introduced Himself to Saul…and a new birth produced Saul into Paul.” (9/27) I was simply responding to what you wrote.
Finally, I want to say that the scripture “interpretation”, MSG, you quote at the top of your conversation has added words and concepts that are not in the underlying Greek meaning of that verse. For example, “addicted to denial and illusion” is not a concept in the scriptures. Man’s inherent, inherited wicked humanity accounts for sin, not his addiction, or failure to recognize sin. This interpretation is a humanistic concept.
Do you have a problem with believers exhorting and edifying each other in the truth of the word? I sincerely hope you don’t think this is another quibbling “critique”, because it is the revealed truth of God concerning man’s wickedness, depravity and deserved death.
Mark, since I have not said the things you accuse me of writing, maybe the problem is with the scripture of truth. You will notice that I did not give you much scripture quotes because I believed you knew the context.
If you don’t want to continue conversing, that is okay! But know that your rejection is not because of something you say I have written and didn’t write, but for what I have written and you have decided to reject.
Grace and Peace. Jesus the Mashiyach is the Giver of Truth.
Dee
Mark (Cov) says
October 3, 2012 at 5:53 amGood morning Dee…the quibbling I speak of is simple things that are a given. Would you mind translating Yahweh please? In my limited understanding I know that the letter “J” in Jehovah comes from a German influence. So Jehovah is not actually in the Hebrew. But of course we also know there is no “w” sound in Hebrew text as well. Maybe I should have written YHVH, eh?
Second, Jesus is the English word for the Greek word Iesous which is the Hebrew word for Yehoshua which in turn you would say Joshua which is an abbreviated form of the English word Jehoshua.
The word Yahweh, which actually should be YHVH means I am that I am. The respectful way to imply YHVH is to say HaShem, which means The Name…which respectfully points back to YHVH. And, can we agree that the Jesus in Acts 9:5 is The Name above all other names? So in simplicity, would not HaShem (YHVH) be the Jesus? Because Saul/Paul was a Jew of Jews, he knew automatically in is heart of hearts the glory of HaShem knocked him off his ride. I try to look at things through the eyes….customs….manners of the people that actually lived then wrote from their experiences. Paul being a Jew, thinks like a Jew. Just as Jesus acted and moved as a Jew.
All of that to ask…didn’t you say something along the line that I was mistaken about writing Father God speaking towards Saul? If so, then you misread. I did not…I pointed to The Name above all names.
And then of course it is a given that God is The Creator. Yet you seem to have a problem with me showing God in relation to man in creation. God is light. The tree will lose leaves if it does not have light. Are we not The Oak Trees of Righteousness over there in Isaiah 61:3? And if we, The Oaks (metaphorically of course) are not in the presence of God ( the light) then we do not grow. It is totally backwards to think of creation over The Creator. That never entered my mind. I have used that “story” in prisons, drug rehab’s, churches in other countries and there was complete understanding. You would be the first to think I was saying the creation came before The Creator.
As to The Message, the fella that put that out is a word scholar. I can say many things about KJV translation as well. How is it that a group of people from Europe that invaded Israel and the rest of The Middle East killing Jews etc supposed to be the authority? To understand a people, you must live in their shoes…know and breath the same air…experience the same customs. Take a look at the word in Eph 6:12, “against”, then go to John 1:1 and look at the word “with”…both are the Greek word “pros”. What is the prob? How can pros be both with and against? To get clarity by reading an English version translated from Greek…and not classical Greek…that was originally written in and from a Jewish heart takes close connection with The Holy Spirit. Let me put it this way, people in America have trouble understanding each other because of different customs and manners…each tribe is different, the North thinks different from the South or West. So a word study takes more than just a concordance. I can show you probs with the NIV, etc. In other words, your interpretation of The Message is humanistic is in itself an error…I could say KJV is European and completely out of touch with the manners and customs of the Hebrew people …but I don’t want to quibble. I read many translations and allow The Holy Spirit to guide me. :>)
Have a great week.
Dee B says
October 3, 2012 at 4:18 pmGood Evening Mark,
I’m not sure if you expect me to respond, or if those comments were your final thoughts, but I do want to respond.
I did say “Father God” in speaking about Saul/Paul, but from the context, you know I meant the Great God, Father of Yeshuah, “HaShem”, YHVH, Yahweh, and yes, Jehovah. I believe what you say about Father God’s name is right, scriptural. However, regardless of Saul/Paul’s Jewish background and understanding, my point was, and I said it clearly, that it was not the manifestation of “YHVH” who knocked him off his horse and spoke and taught him the good news of Grace and the New Covenant. It was the glorified Yeshua. Saul knew that that person was deity but he didn’t know who “knocked him off his ride”. It is a matter of scriptural record that he said,”…Who art thou, Lord?”. (Acts 9:5 KJV; Acts 26:14 KJV)
I agree with this statement of yours, because I see it in scripture: “It is totally backwards to think of creation over The Creator.”
But, if man is presented first, and God is not spoken or written about as the originator of light or whatever, man will never know the sovereignty of God in life, natural or eternal. That’s what I was saying about your written examples. I did not see you write about God over creation in them. Although, as you say,”You would be the first to think I was saying the creation came before The Creator.” I responded to what you wrote, and it was not a skills call. LOL! It was the result of my continually renewing my mind in the things of God, and I notice when He’s not gettin’ His due Glory. LOL!
You said: “And then of course it is a given that God is The Creator. Yet you seem to have a problem with me showing God in relation to man in creation.” No, I did not have a problem with that. My observation was that you didn’t show God in relation to man in your examples, except in your Oral Tradition example, which I really embraced! You only taught from the human side! It is not a given when telling folks about God and His Son’s salvation. People can’t know or receive, including believers, unless that good news is communicated, always. That communication is the power of God! You don’t know what God will have you say about Himself and His sovereignty to put faith in someone’s spirit. (Roman 1:16-17 KJV)
As to the Message, I did not say it was a humanistic interpretation (although I have my suspicions, LOL!). I said that verse you quoted was humanistic BECAUSE it spoke of a concept about sin which, not only is NOT found in the scriptures, but is a concept, doctrine, minimizing God’s judgment of sin and the unrighteousness of humanity. It is a vain philosophical, humanistic idea. I was very clear.
I also agree with most of what you have written about translations in general and the KJV in particular. It is important and is not quibbling. The KJV is not a perfect translation into English and does not adequate reveal Jewish background and culture. Remember, it is used by Christianity which is a gentile-based “religion”. HOWEVER, it is one of few translations based on Greek and Hebrew original texts which have been documented with the underlying meanings of the English words, called a concordance! Father God did that for us, in His sovereignty. Any English translation based on that “Received Greek Text” for the “new testament”, can be checked and investigated as to the God’s meaning in the original manuscripts, which are the inspired documents. While I trust God implicitly for revelation understanding, I do not trust any English translation where I can not see the language and the meaning is “hidden”, such as the NIV, ESV, NLT and any Westcott Hort based English translations. The heart of man is wicked and hates God. So, while the KJV, NASB, etc., are not perfect, one can, together with the Holy Spirit, reliably check out the multitude of different words used, learn the culture being spoken of if you don’t know Hebrew or Greek, and be led into truth. It is the foundation translation I use when reading any other English translations, and I do read them, although I make a practice of staying away from commentaries.
The Holy Spirit will guide us into all Truth, that is, the written doctrine of God, not man’s interpretation, revealed to our spirits. We need God the Holy Spirit in this “endeavor”.
Well, Mark, it has been fun! Have a good week also.
His,
Dee
Mark (Cov) says
October 4, 2012 at 6:25 amGood morning Dee…..yes, I did expect you to answer. Guess we need our on room for a chat eh.
I am getting the feeling we believe in similar veins but communicate different. Which leads me to think we are from different linguistic locations.
As to Christianity being gentile based, I do not agree with that statement. The word Christian simply mean to be like The Anointed One. The first Christians where all Jews and they never stopped being Jews. They kept the holidays, practiced Shabbat, etc only from the point of following Jesus The Messiah. Christianity is a sect of Judaism…which may send most brains into tilt. But think through that statement. Jesus kept all the holidays…etc. So, once our Father God made the statement through His Son…to go into all the world…and the Jews kept practicing faith yet kept it to themselves then God The Father through His Son knocked Paul off his ride. Why, because He wanted the world to know about Messiah. Paul is the apostle to the gentiles.
Dee B says
October 4, 2012 at 8:15 amGood Mornin’ Mark,
Yeah, we need our own chat room! I am a gentile saint from the east coast of the US, but I don’t think it is about linguistic location in understanding the scriptures. We need the Holy Spirit, as you said earlier. You mentioned:
“As to Christianity being gentile based, I do not agree with that statement.”
Sorry, I didn’t clearly write what I meant. I meant that the subsequent “religion” has become gentile-based, developed after the death of the apostles and the Jewish and gentile false teachers began, in earnest, to infiltrate assemblies of ekklesia: from AD 200 (Constantine, AD 350, Nicene counsel and other counsels) and forward–1900+ years. So, the Christian religion was and is still gentile-based. A curious thing is the fact is that Jesus was Jewish is still a surprise to many. Jewish people preached the Christian gospel want nothing to do with Christianity because they believe they must give up their Jewishness and accept a “Christ” as their Messiah, rather than the Messiah as their Messiah.
Look at the fact that the Christian religion as a whole still does not understand the connection between the old and new covenants, theology and in practice. The apostles made this connection continuously to both Jews and Gentiles–grace, grace, grace. The religion believes that the nation of Israel (not individual Jews) has been swallowed up in the new covenant today, not having its own promises still to be fulfilled. Its “ideology” of the nation of Israel being replaced by the Christian church is insidious and demonically inspired, since it attacks God’s character. He will never break His promise to the Hebrew fathers. I have said this many times.
“The word Christian simply mean to be like The Anointed One.”
Actually, the English word Christian is an untranslated, but transliterated Greek word for christianos which means “followers of the anointed one or Messiah”. The first believers were not Christian, neither did they call themselves Christian. The book of Acts reveals the Jewish believers and newly born gentiles called themselves “followers of the Way or Messiah”, or believers or saints and brethren, strangers, never Christians as the Christian religion teaches. LOL! The term, christianos (followers of the anointed) was first used in Antioch by scornful unbelievers to mock the Jewish believers who were so different in their worship of God and the Lord Jesus from non-believing Jews and gentiles. Peter admonished the believers not to be offended since they knew the real meaning of the term.
“Jesus kept all the holidays…etc.” Yes, because He was a righteous Jew under the Old Covenant, and the Son of God fulfilling all the law and prophecy concerning Himself. He was very aware that He was to keep the law in fulfilling His Father’s purpose and plan for eternal life. But He also preached the time to come of the Grace of God.
“Christianity is a sect of Judaism…which may send most brains into tilt.”
Well, Christianity is a “religion with religious systems”, which means there is no salvation in it or its organizations, only in Jesus the Messiah that it “refers” to. Its religious systems mix the old covenant law keeping in with the “various teachings” about God’s grace by Jesus, the mediator of the new covenant. On that level, I can agree with you. It has become an apostatized religion, both Protestant and Catholic sects, full of idolatry and heresy, just like Judaism. It does have true believers involved in it based on God’s power based on the real preaching of the good news of God’s grace. God will open the eyes of His children to the truth of what their spiritual relationship with Father God through Jesus is and will be in eternity. It is system which is not so satisfying to true believers who call themselves Christian. Confusion reigns as we can see by the numerous lines of division and denominations. Many of those who “drop out” are God’s people not willing to be unequally yoked together with unbelievers. Judaism is based on the old covenant and brings death and condemnation to all who practice it, according to the scriptures. It’s system was done away with and replaced by God.
“then God The Father through His Son knocked Paul off his ride.”
YES!!
Enjoy your day, Mark.
His,
Dee