The following is section six from a series on emphatic elements in the Greek New Testament, written by biblical language expert Justin Alfred. Previous blog entries in this series:
Section VII – Matthew 24:36-41
But of that day and hour no one knows, not even the angels of heaven, nor the Son, but the Father alone. 37 “For the coming of the Son of Man will be just like the days of Noah. 38 “For as in those days which were before the flood they were eating and drinking, they were marrying and giving in marriage, until the day that Noah entered the ark, 39 and they did not understand until the flood came and took them all away; so shall the coming of the Son of Man be. 40 “Then there shall be two men in the field; one will be taken, and one will be left. 41 “Two women will be grinding at the mill; one will be taken, and one will be left. (Matthew 24:36-41)
…of that day and hour no one knows
In the above passage, Jesus certainly presents what appears to support the view of the rapture of believers in verses 40-41: “Then there shall be two men in the field; one will be taken, and one will be left. Two women will be grinding at the mill; one will be taken, and one will be left.” On the other hand, Jesus is making it abundantly clear that “of that day and hour NO ONE KNOWS (my emphasis),” and there are NO EXCEPTIONS with regard to anyone having either a partial or full grasp of remotely knowing when Jesus is returning. On the other hand, in just my lifetime and the almost 47 years I have been a Christian, I have witnessed Christians, evangelical pastors, teachers, writers, and theologians who seem to think that Jesus should have made a qualifying statement such as, “of that day and hour, no one knows, not even the angels of heaven, nor the Son, but the Father alone, as well as certain and very well-informed Christians, evangelical pastors, teachers, writers, and theologians in the 20th and early 21st centuries AD.”
After Jesus’ resurrection, and just before His ascension into heaven, His disciples were once again anxious about knowing about the “end times,” just as they were in Matthew 24:3. They approached Him with the same question:
And so when they had come together, they were asking Him, saying, “Lord, is it at this time You are restoring the kingdom to Israel?” 7 He said to them, “It is not for you to know times or epochs which the Father has fixed by His own authority; 8 but you shall receive power when the Holy Spirit has come upon you; and you shall be My witnesses both in Jerusalem, and in all Judea and Samaria, and even to the remotest part of the earth.” 9 And after He had said these things, He was lifted up while they were looking on, and a cloud received Him out of their sight. 10 And as they were gazing intently into the sky while He was departing, behold, two men in white clothing stood beside them; 11 and they also said, “Men of Galilee, why do you stand looking into the sky? This Jesus, who has been taken up from you into heaven, will come in just the same way as you have watched Him go into heaven.” (Acts 1:6-11)
Jesus’ words are clear
Verse 7 cannot be more clear. Yet, just in my brief lifetime, I have continually witnessed Christian, evangelical pastors, teachers, writers, and theologians who appear to have TOTALLY DISREGARDED this verse, as well as Matthew 24:36, and they believe they are the exception to these two all important verses. Let’s look at these two essential and important verses, Matthew 24:36 and Acts 1:7, and see how they fit in with all that Jesus is saying concerning His return.
Getting into the Greek
Here is the first thing to note in Matthew 24:36: the Greek word used to translate the English words, “no one,” is οὐδείς (oudeis); it is made up of two Greek words: οὐ (ou), which means “no or not”; and εἷς (eis), which means “one.” The δ (d) is added simply as a consonantal connective for what is called a more euphonic reading and articulation. In other words, it’s just easier to say!
Thus, Jesus is saying is that “NO ONE,” which means, “NO ONE, NOT ANY, NOT ONE knows the day or hour” of His return. Now believe it or not, over the years I have heard Christiasn, evangelical pastors, teachers, and writers, but only a few theologians, say, “but He didn’t say anything about not knowing the week, month, year, decade, or century in which He will return.” If such a statement like this was not so tragically ludicrous, it would be funny. But, unfortunately, it is utterly and tragically ludicrous. The term that Jesus uses—“day and hour”— is merely an idiom of the time in which He lived, and it meant, “NO ONE KNOWS THE TIME AT ALL!”:
Beyond human determination
In very strong contrast to the emphasis in v. 33 concerning what can be known—namely, the experienced signs of the interim up to the point of the nearness of the parousia of the Son of Man—the present verse clearly indicates the impossibility of knowing the time of the Son of Man’s coming and the end of the age in advance of their actual occurrence . . . . This stress on our ignorance of the actual time of the parousia continues through the next several periscopes . . . . τῆς ἡμέρας ἐκείνης καὶ ὥρας, “of that day and hour,” refers to the event—the climactic return of the Son of Man—by which this formula (for “day and hour,” see v. 50; 25:13; “day and hour” are split in vv 42, 44) is said to be beyond human determination altogether, and not just partially, e.g., so that, say, the month or year could be known (rightly Meinertz, Lövestam, Carson, Blomberg).[1]
Perfect active verbs
Thus, what Hagner is saying, and Meinertz, Lövestam, Carson, and Blomberg agree with him, is that “day and hour” is an all inclusive term, meaning that “NO ONE AT ALL HAS ANY IDEA AS TO THE NEAR OR EXACT TIME” when He will return. To emphasize this even more so, Jesus goes on to say in Matthew 24:36 that “not even the angels of heaven, nor the Son, but the Father alone” knows when His return will be! The other important aspect of Matthew 24:36 is the Greek verb “knows,” οἶδεν (oiden), which is technically a perfect active verb, meaning it speaks of a completed act with an ongoing result. In this particular instance, therefore, this “perfect” goes by several names (e.g., perfect with a present force; intensive present perfect; or perfect of existing state), all of which are emphasizing a present state of being. Now what is important in understanding of just how this present state came into being is explained by Wallace:
The reason why such perfects have the same semantics as presents is frequently that there is very little distinction between the act and its results. They are stative verbs. The result of knowing is knowing. When one comes to stand he/she still stands. The result of persuading someone is that he/she is still persuaded. Thus this usage occurs especially with verbs where the act slides over into the results. They are resultative perfects to the point that the act itself has virtually died; the results have become the act.[2]
What all of this means is that one’s past actions have become so enmeshed into the present result, that the present result is the ultimate reality and the unalterable, state of being of repeated, past actions. Consequently, because of God’s sovereign purpose and plan, even “before the foundation of the world” (Ephesians 1:3-6), His ultimate actions and purposes are at times far beyond our seriously flawed, human ability to comprehend, grasp, and understand, which UNEQUIVOCALLY INCLUDES THE RETURN OF CHRIST! Therefore, all such repeated, human efforts to make such a determination are doomed to failure, misdirection, confusion, and at times, serious deception, which will ALWAYS END IN A STATE OF BEING OF NOT KNOWING when Christ’s Return will be!
In Acts 1:7, Jesus once again responds quite emphatically to the disciples’ question about the ‘end times’
In this verse, He says, “It is not for you to know times or epochs which the Father has fixed by His own authority, except for certain spiritually and intellectually gifted Christian, evangelical pastors, teachers, writers, and theologians in the 20th and early 21st centuries (my addition).” Obviously, we do not see ANY INCLUSION such as I added in this verse, let alone even intimated at. The Greek word translated in English for “to know” is γνῶναι (gnōnai), and it is an aorist infinitive, and the aorist focuses on action that is viewed in individual instances, as well as actions over a period of time that are viewed as one unit.
Thus, for our purposes, Jesus is saying that individual attempts to determine when He is returning based on specific, world events at specific times is utterly misdirected, as well as a long period of analysis of world events, culminating in some type of projected determination of Jesus’ return date is equally misdirected and misleading. In addition, the two words, “times and epochs,” in the Greek are respectively, χρόνος (chronos) and καιρός (kairos), with χρόνος (chronos) meaning “an indefinite period of time during which some activity or event takes place, or a point of time consisting of an occasion for some event or activity,”[3] and καιρός (kairos) meaning “a point of time or period of time; a defined period for an event, such as a definite, fixed time; and a period characterized by some aspect of special crisis or time.”[4] In addition to all of this, Jesus said that the “Father has fixed by his own authority” the time and circumstances related to His return, with the word in Greek for “fixed” being ἔθετο (etheto), which is an aorist verb, coming from the root verb τίθημι (tithēmi), and it means “to put, place, assign, arrange, establish, and appoint in a particular location.”[5] Thus, with the aorist tense being used with ἔθετο (etheto), what Jesus is saying that at an instance “before the foundation of the world” (Ephesians 1:3-6), God determined when Jesus will return, as well as all of the circumstances surrounding His return, and as we read Acts 1:6-11, we can see quite clearly that Jesus is saying NO ONE IS GOING TO BE GIVEN THIS SPECIAL INSIGHT AND KNOWLEDGE as to when His return will be!
However, what we are unequivocally told to be engaged in is found in Acts 1:8: “but you shall receive power when the Holy Spirit has come upon you; and you shall be My witnesses both in Jerusalem, and in all Judea and Samaria, and even to the remotest part of the earth.” Now indeed, being a “witness” for Jesus in all aspects of our lives is not nearly as titillating to our carnal and emotional sensitivities as is going to a prophecy conference and hearing the latest and greatest ideas being propagated about when we can expect Jesus’ return, but without question the former is where the ‘eternal blessing’ is going to come from, and the latter is where valuable energy, effort, and time will be wasted on useless and meaningless speculations, bringing no lasting fruit in one’s life. What was communicated to Jesus’ disciples at His ascension by the two angels concerning His return, which is the same message for us in the 21st century, was and is, “Men of Galilee (and 21st century believers throughout the world – my note), why do you stand looking into the sky? This Jesus, who has been taken up from you into heaven, will come in just the same way as you have watched Him go into heaven” (Acts 1:11).
[1] Donald A. Hagner, World Biblical Commentary: Matthew 14-28, Vol. 33B (Dallas: Word Incorporated, 2002), 716.
[2] Daniel B. Wallace, Greek Grammar Beyond the Basics (Grand Rapids: Zondervan Publishing House, 1996), 579-580.
[3] Frederick William Danker, ed., A Greek-English Lexicon of the New Testament and Other Early Christian Literature, 3rd ed. (BDAG) (Chicago: University of Chicago Press, 2001), # 7991.
[4] Ibid., # 3857.
[5] Ibid., # 7362.
Tom Webster says
August 29, 2012 at 9:34 amThis article misses the proper context. You should not have ended at verse 31 of Matthew 24, which leaves the INCORRECT assumption that it refers to the rapture. The ones TAKEN are taken to death/judgment; they are NOT taken in the rapture.
The comparison is with the flood of Noah. Those who WERE TAKEN AWAY by the flood were killed(judgment). This is the proper context. Compare also with Luke ch. 17.
Eric says
August 29, 2012 at 1:07 pmYou are absolutely correct! In Matthew 24, those taken away are taken away in judgment, not to God’s kingdom. That is clear from the context, but yet so few people see that. I think people make the text say what they want it to say.
Steve says
August 29, 2012 at 10:51 amTom,
myth…. hmmm… so, you have irrefutable support that what the present day church calls “pre-trib rapture” is actually a myth?
It strikes me there are a few passages, well, ok, several… scattered throughout the bible that separates those who follow God from those who do not during a time of judgment on sin. As the 7 year era, known in Jeremiah as “the time of Jacob’s trouble” is an era specifically focusing on Israel, and giving the rest of humanity what they claim to want– nothing to do with God, it strikes me that the Bride of Christ would no longer be a part of human civilization, solely in fulfillment of God’s Justice, as defined in his discussion with Abraham, regarding judgment on Sodom and Gomorrah, and Lot’s deliverance, in Genesis.
I suppose my question would be– why would God leave the Bride of Jesus in the midst of his judgment on Sin, when he was placing all his focus on Israel? Unless of course you believe that God has completely and totally abandoned Israel, as his own Bride. At which point– Jeremiah 31:35-37 answers that one.
Curious thoughts, for sure.
Tom Webster says
August 29, 2012 at 12:32 pmHi Steve,
Most who hold onto the pre-Trib rapture ignore the context of Jesus coming as “a thief in the night.” The context is always unexpected, but unexpected as to the timing of a person’s physical death/judgment.
Never once is it intended to be applied to a pre-Trib rapture. Paul describes the rapture as a secondary phase of the resurrection, which is the context for 1 Thess ch. 4 and 1 Cor ch. 15. As an example, Jesus warns believers not to be “evil servants” in Matthew 24:43-51
43 But know this, that if the goodman of the house had known in what watch the thief would come, he would have watched, and would not have suffered his house to be broken up.
44 Therefore be ye also ready: for in such an hour as ye think not the Son of man cometh.
45 Who then is a faithful and wise servant, whom his lord hath made ruler over his household, to give them meat in due season?
46 Blessed is that servant, whom his lord when he cometh shall find so doing.
47 Verily I say unto you, That he shall make him ruler over all his goods.
48 But and if that evil servant shall say in his heart, My lord delayeth his coming;
49 And shall begin to smite his fellowservants, and to eat and drink with the drunken;
50 The lord of that servant shall come in a day when he looketh not for him, and in an hour that he is not aware of,
51 And shall cut him asunder, and appoint him his portion with the hypocrites: there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth.
The proper context, which has always been true, since Matthew wrote his Gospel, is that the LORD of that servant will come in a day [during the servant’s lifetime] that he was not expecting (v50). Like a thief, Jesus comes for the man’s soul unexpectedly, and the evil servant (believer) ends up in Hell (v51).
Another example is Revlation 16:15-16 where Jesus predicts He will come as a thief just before Armageddon!
15 Behold, I come as a THIEF. Blessed is he that watcheth, and keepeth his garments, lest he walk naked, and they see his shame.
16 And he gathered them together into a place called in the Hebrew tongue Armageddon.
Again, He admonishes believers even during the Tribulation to “watch” (be ready) and to keep his garments (make sure of your righteousness in Christ). Apparently, nobody was raptured before the Tribulation.
You cite Jeremiah 30:7, which is the only verse in Scripture that references “the time of Jacob’s trouble,” but incorrectly state that it is 7 years:
JEREMIAH 30:7-9 (KJV)
7 Alas! for that day is great, so that none is like it: it is even the time of Jacob’s trouble, but he shall be saved out of it.
8 For it shall come to pass in that day, saith the Lord of hosts, that I will break his yoke from off thy neck, and will burst thy bonds, and strangers shall no more serve themselves of him:
9 But they shall serve the Lord their God, and David their king, whom I will raise up unto them.
The Tribulation is actually 3.5 years = 42 months = 1260 days, which is given in Daniel ch 12 twice and in Revelation 5 times. The myth of a FUTURE 70th ‘seven’ or ‘week’ from Daniel 9:25-27 contributes to the additional myth that God intends to really punish the Jews during the Tribulation!
Salvation is for the Jew FIRST. The Church will go through the Tribulation, which will result in a number of Tribulation saints that cannot be numbered. The wrath of antichrist is not the wrath of God. Persecution is a good thing;it causes the NT church to grow! Just because Jerusalem will br trodden down until the times of the Gentiles is complete (Luke 21) does not mean that the Jews are targeted or that the bride of Christ must be removed before the Tribulation. Furthermore, Revelation ch 12 and Zechariah 14 seem to clearly reveal that some Jews will be allowed to escape. Bottom line: replacement theology is another myth.
If “the time of Jacob’s trouble” refers to the Tribulation, then it in no way means that only Jews will go through the Tribulation.
The Tribulation will start with the abomination that maketh desolate – antichrist reveals himself in Jerusalem.
1260 days – time allowed by God for the antichrist to overcome the saints
1260 days – 2 witnesses prophesy in Jerusalem
{notice also that they are dealing out judgments}
7th TRUMP – Resurrection/Rapture occurs (LAST TRUMP)
1290 days – Daniel 12:11
1335 days – perhaps Start of Millenium (Dan. 12:12)
Jesus cannot return before the antichrist is revealed. This is why there is no pre-Trib rapture.
2 THESS 2:1-4 (KJV)
Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto him,
(v1 – coming of The Lord & rapture)
2 That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand.
3 Let no man deceive you by any means: for THAT DAY SHALL NOT COME, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;
4 Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God.
Steve says
August 29, 2012 at 8:52 pmthief in the night context.
This is indeed curious. I never saw any conflict with the idea of thief in the night with regards to what’s classified as pre-trib. I still have not seen what I consider a concise explanation on the idea of when the exact time the tribulation starts. Daniel 9 would appear to imply that it starts with the beginning of a “1 week covenant” with Israel. So far I haven’t heard anything that challenges this timing. As we do not know when this covenant will take place, or be initialized, there’s no direct, or obvious conflict. More in subsequent posts on the rest of your material.
Tom Webster says
August 30, 2012 at 8:21 amSteve,
Thanks for the follow-up. The Tribulation period STARTS with the abomination that maketh desolate.
Part of the confusion from Daniel Ch. 9 occurs from the poor punctuation choices used in the KJV. The AMPLIFIED Bible clarifies:
DANIEL 9:26-27 (AMP)
26a And after the sixty-two weeks [of years] shall the Anointed One be cut off or killed and shall have nothing [and no one] belonging to [and defending] Him.
(Jesus was crucified AFTER the 69th ‘week’ – i.e. during the 70th week – 70th week from decree)
26b And the people of the [other] prince who will come will destroy the city and the sanctuary. Its end shall come with a flood; and even to the end there shall be war, and desolations are decreed.
27 And he shall enter into a strong and firm covenant with the many for one week [seven years]. And in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and offering to cease [for the remaining three and one-half years]; and upon the wing or pinnacle of abominations [shall come] one who makes desolate, until the full determined end is poured out on the desolator.
So the prince (antichrist) will indeed make a 7-year agreement, perhaps a sham Peace Treaty. But he breaks the agreement mid-way. It is when the antichrist defiles the temple and declares himself to be “God” that the Tribulation starts. This is precisely what Daniel ch 12 tells us:
DANIEL 12:11
11 And from the time that the daily sacrifice shall be taken away, and the abomination that maketh desolate set up, there shall be a thousand two hundred and ninety days.
1290 days = 1260 + 30
DANIEL 12:7 (AMP)
7 And I heard the man clothed in linen, who was above the waters of the river, when he held up his right and his left hand toward the heavens and swore by Him Who lives forever that it shall be for a time, times, and a half a time [or three and one-half years]; and when they have made an end of shattering and crushing the power of the holy people, all these things shall be finished.
The above verse tells us that the antichrist will crush and kill the saints for 3.5 years, which is repeated in Revelation 13:4-7 (KJV):
4 And they worshipped the dragon which gave power unto the beast: and they worshipped the beast, saying, Who is like unto the beast? who is able to make war with him?
5 And there was given unto him a mouth speaking great things and blasphemies; and power was given unto him to continue forty and two months. {42months = 3.5 years}
6 And he opened his mouth in blasphemy against God, to blaspheme his name, and his tabernacle, and them that dwell in heaven.
7 And it was given unto him to make war with the saints, and to overcome them: and power was given him over all kindreds, and tongues, and nations.
The antichrist is ALLOWED by God to “continue” (operate) for 42 months (v5) and to make war with the saints and OVERCOME them (kill them). Hence the large number of Tribulation saints who will be beheaded.
Returning to Matthew 24, with the knowledge that the tribulation period starts with the abomination of desolation, everything Jesus said falls neatly into place:
15 When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, (whoso readeth, let him understand:)
21 For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be.
Again, the gathering of the saints occurs after the Tribulation has started,according to the sequence of events given by Jesus in Matthew 24 (see verse 31).
The exact timing of the Peace Treaty is not given, but Christians and Jews that know the prophetic Scriptures will not be fooled.
Only the world will be fooled and deceived:
1 Thess 5:3
3 For when they shall say, Peace and safety; then sudden destruction cometh upon them, as travail upon a woman with child; and they shall not escape.
Examining Revelation, you will see that a 3.5 year period (42 months/1360 days) is referenced at least 5 times. Never once is a 7-year period mentioned…
Eric says
August 30, 2012 at 1:28 pmThe tribulation period is 7 years in length. Jesus was crucified at the end of the 69th week of Daniel (Daniel 9:26). There is a gap between the 69th week of Daniel and the 70th week. This gap allows for the dispensation of grace (not prophesied in the Old Testament), the rapture of the body of Christ (not prophesied), and the resuming of the prophecy program with the Antichrist destroying the city of Jerusalem and the sanctuary (Daniel 9:26), and the Antichrist re-building the sanctuary so that sacrifices can resume. After all of that happens, there is a seven-year covenant between Israel and the Antichrist (Daniel 9:27). The signing of the covenant is the seven-year tribulation period. During the first 3 1/2 years, the first four seals of Revelation 6:1-8 happen, coinciding with Matthew 24:4-8, which Jesus refers to as “the beginning of sorrows” (Matthew 24:4-8). Then, halfway through the tribulation period, the abomination of desolation is set up, beginning the “great tribulation” (Matthew 24:21), which lasts for the last 3 1/2 years of the Antichrist’s covenant with Israel.
Steve says
August 29, 2012 at 9:11 pmContext of Jer 30:7.
Thank you for posting it by the way.
He shall be saved out of it. Ok… and?
Zechariah 13:8-9 discuss this “saving out of it” issue more completely. 2/3 shall die, and be cut off, and 1/3 shall be brought through.
Jacob’s Trouble is a period that is undefined in this passage. We read elsewhere that it’s a period of 1290 days from the time of the abomination of desolations to the end. Dan 12:11-12. It then gives a blessing to those who can endure to day 1335. So, this in fact does not give the entire period. It simply states there is a period from a specific event to the end. Jesus describes this period in his Olivet Discourse. As he was always talking to Jews first, and specifically references Jerusalem’s troubles.
In the 2 Thess 2 passage, an idea I’d not heard before was discussed last week– can’t remember if on the radio– CSN– or another local christian radio station.
We look at 2Thess2 as the “apostasy” passage. But the passage also appears to give another perspective. The teacher I’d heard said this could also refer to, not an apostasy, but a removal of a group of people. It does not state who this group of people are. It simply states– that day shall not come unless there is a …… first.
I have to say– I had never heard this before. We’ve always taken apostasia as an apostasy of perceived saints towards unbelief.
According to this teacher– and Justin’s perspective would be appreciated here– the word- apostasia is applied towards a removal. Strikes me as strange, but the argument now exists.
The premise is that the Holy Spirit prevents the man of sin from being revealed. Once the Holy Spirit is removed– then he comes in his “glory.” The entirety of this whole idea then falls back on our removal because the Holy Spirit departs. As we are sealed by the Spirit (2 Cor 1:22, Eph 1:13, 4:30, and Ezekiel 36:27), his departure demands our departure– unless there’s some basis for our sealing being disconnected from Him.
So, perhaps we should be discussing this idea of our being separated from God’s Spirit, once we’re sealed, upon his departure as described in 2 Thess 2:7.
Tom Webster says
August 30, 2012 at 8:53 amYour selection of Zechariah 13:8-9 is interesting. It does seem to be in context of THE DAY OF THE LORD (“in that day” v2):
8 And it shall come to pass, that in all the land, saith the Lord, two parts therein shall be cut off and die; but the third shall be left therein.
9 And I will bring the third part through the fire, and will refine them as silver is refined, and will try them as gold is tried: they shall call on my name, and I will hear them: I will say, It is my people: and they shall say, The Lord is my God.
It is also consistent with other Scriptures that reference some significant number of Jews being saved/rescued. The fires of persecution will cause many to trust Yeshua.
Also, it matches with the end of the Tribulation leading quickly to Armageddon. The very next verses in Zechariah spell it out in detail:
Behold, the day of the Lord cometh, and thy spoil shall be divided in the midst of thee.
2 For I will gather all nations against Jerusalem to battle; and the city shall be taken, and the houses rifled, and the women ravished; and half of the city shall go forth into captivity, and the residue of the people shall not be cut off from the city.
3 Then shall the Lord go forth, and fight against those nations, as when he fought in the day of battle. [RE: Joshua,son of Nun]
4 And his feet shall stand in that day upon the mount of Olives, which is before Jerusalem on the east, and the mount of Olives shall cleave in the midst thereof toward the east and toward the west, and there shall be a very great valley; and half of the mountain shall remove toward the north, and half of it toward the south.
5 And ye shall flee to the valley of the mountains; for the valley of the mountains shall reach unto Azal: yea, ye shall flee, like as ye fled from before the earthquake in the days of Uzziah king of Judah: and the Lord my God shall come, and all the saints with thee.
[Note the Celestial sign]
6 And it shall come to pass in that day, that the light shall not be clear, nor dark:
7 But it shall be one day which shall be known to the Lord, not day, nor night: but it shall come to pass, that at evening time it shall be light.
First the natural, then the spiritual. This seems to be a parallel to Joshua’s request for the sun to remain in place… delay evening.
Tom Webster says
August 30, 2012 at 9:17 amSadly, the alternative to apostasy is not new. The AMPLIFIED Bible has the following footnotes to 2 Thess 2:3
3 Let no one deceive or beguile you in any way, for that day will not come except the [a]apostasy comes first [unless the predicted great [b]falling away of those who have professed to be Christians has come], and the man of lawlessness (sin) is revealed, who is the son of doom (of perdition),
FOOTNOTE a,b
A possible rendering of the Greek apostasia is “departure [of the church].”
Honestly, this is desperation on the part of believers who refuse to believe that Christians can “fall away,” which would crush their “once saved, always saved” myth. In addition, the pre-Tribbers, who do not want any persecution or trouble, refuse to acknowledge all the verses that make it clear that “we must through much tribulation enter into the kingdom of God.”
Most likely, The Holy Spirit is the restraining “force” that will allow the antichrist to be revealed at the proper time. However, The Holy Spirit is not taken out or removed from the earth! Otherwise, nobody could get saved during the Tribulation!
6 And now ye know what withholdeth that he might be revealed in his time.
7 For the mystery of iniquity doth already work: only he who now letteth will let, until he be taken out of the way.
(i.e. taken out of the way of the antichrist)
8 And then shall that Wicked be revealed…
Christians reveal their faith when tried and tested. There is a famous episode during WW2 when a couple of Nazi soldiers burst into a prayer meeting and said that anyone willing to deny Christ could run away now and not be shot. After some bolted, the soldiers took off their helmets, and said “now we know who the true Christians are and can worship with you!”
When the antichrist is revealed, and probably even before, believers are going to have to suffer and die for their faith. It is exactly because of this persecution and the lawlessness in general that will cause many believers to “fall away.”
Tom Webster says
August 30, 2012 at 12:16 pmNow the Spirit speaketh expressly, that in the latter times some shall DEPART from the faith…
1 Timothy 4:1 (KJV) is just one verse that confirms that APOSTASY is the correct understanding of “falling away” in 2 Thess 2:3, which is Strong’s G646 (apostasia)
–> a falling away, defection, apostasy
Thayer’s lexicon on the blueletterbible site confirms that this is the correct understanding specifically for 1 Tim 4:1
“a falling away, defection, apostasy… from the true religion.”
Returning to Matthew 24, verses 10 & 12 reference the same “defection/treachery”:
And then shall many be offended, and shall betray one another, and shall hate one another.
And because iniquity shall abound, the [agape] love of many shall wax cold.
{only believers have even a smidgen of agape love}
Now read 2 Thess. 2:1-4 again in context:
2 Thessalonians 2:1-4 (KJV)
Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto him,
2 That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand (close at hand/impending or imminent). [expanded – Strong’s G1764]
3 Let no man deceive you by any means: for THAT DAY SHALL NOT COME, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;
4 Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God.
Paul is specifically teaching that THE DAY OF THE LORD, which includes the Resurrection/Rapture is NOT close at hand and CANNOT happen before an apostasy AND the revealing of the antichrist.
Steve says
August 29, 2012 at 9:27 pmSalvation to the Jew first.
Indeed it is… As Paul states very clearly in numerous places in his letters- Galatians, Colossians, Ephesians– the wall is broken down, there is neither jew nor greek, …… all are one in Christ…… the question has to be asked– Is it that only Jews are saved, and God abandons goys until the end, or is it that Paul preaches to Jews first, giving them first right of refusal, and then goes to us who are goy?
Luke, actually makes this point in Acts– numerous times. Paul preached to Jews first, giving them first right of refusal, and then he goes to the goyim.
So, your application here is out of context– entirely.
Unless you can provide another context supporting your point here. At which point– please, develop it, so I can see what you see.
What does interest me here is the nature, and character of God.
Abraham asks God, in Genesis 18:25– shall not the judge of all the earth do right? Will you judge the righteous with the wicked?
As you yourself concede to earth’s inhabitants being judged in this period, and 2 Cor 5:21 defines those who follow Jesus as having God’s Righteousness, I have to ask the question– why would God judge the righteous with the wicked, when he took a semi-righteous man, by force, out of sodom, to honor his friend’s (Abraham) request/question?
Next, we then read in Malachi 3:6, that God never changes. Furthermore, we read in Hebrews 13:8 that Jesus is the same, yesterday, today, and forever.
So, again, I have to ask– if God never changes, and if Jesus never changes– then why would God honor Abe’s request then, and leave us here in a period that is to judge Israel, to save those out of hell, by one last chance (in what is easily a direct violation of God’s expressly stated nature in Genesis 18:25)?
Jerry S. says
August 30, 2012 at 12:55 amFirst right of responsibility, not refusal. We can all refuse, Jew or goyim.
Steve says
August 30, 2012 at 7:36 amYea, I figured someone would come along and correct that, once I’d posted it….
Agreed– first right of responsibility…..
Tom Webster says
August 30, 2012 at 1:34 pmSteve,
God does not change. Jesus is the same… TRUE!
You are asking a reasonable question. God’s wrath/judgment on Sodom did not hit the righteous, although Lot’s wife perished because of disobedience. So why will the Church be allowed to go through the Tribulation?
God’s wrath, in general, is really eternal. What is a brief physical death, even if painful, when compared with eternal punishment in Hell?
The people of Sodom were given plenty of time to repent. But eventually sin reaches a level which becomes a stench to God’s nose.
Persecution and tribulation is a good thing… REALLY! The early Church thrived during persecution. Look at Sudan or the underground church in China for recent examples. The persecuted church (Smyrna) was “rich” spiritually.
During the tribulation, the wrath of the antichrist is not the wrath of God. After Satan gets kicked out of Heaven and tossed to the earth, he can no longer be “the accuser of the brethren” (Rev 12) and is full of wrath KNOWING that he hath but a short time (~3.5 years). The antichrist is ALLOWED to overcome/kill some of the saints (Rev 13), during which time the church will grow mightily and there will be a number of Tribulation saints which cannot be numbered, from all nationalities.
Some of the trumpet judgments only affect those who have taken the mark of the beast.
The point is that just like the Roman games resulted in the death of many Christians, the wrath of the Roman Empire was not the wrath of God. Their witness led many Romans to be saved, even those in charge of the lions!
Stephen’s martyrdom contributed to Saul becoming the apostle Paul…
REV 12:11 (AMP)
And they have overcome (conquered) him by means of the blood of the Lamb and by the utterance of their testimony, for they did not love and cling to life even when faced with death [holding their lives cheap till they had to die for their witnessing].
Steve says
August 30, 2012 at 1:51 pmTom,
since when did suffering for the sake of righteousness become the same as judgment on sin?
Barbara LeFevre says
September 2, 2012 at 11:01 amSteve~
I’m not in this conversation with the rest of you, but you wrote something on which I’d like to comment. You said, “God’s wrath/judgment on Sodom did not hit the righteous, although Lot’s wife perished because of disobedience. So why will the Church be allowed to go through the Tribulation?”
In Genesis 18, we read of a series of questions in which Abraham asks the Lord if He will spare Sodom if 50 righteous people could be found, and the Lord said yes. Abraham continues his questioning, eventually reducing the number of people down to 10, and in each case, the Lord said He would spare the city. Well, as we know, both Sodom and Gomorrah were destroyed. They were destroyed, not because there were fewer than 10 righteous people but because there were no righteous people. As Abraham says in verse 18, “That be far from thee to do after this manner, to slay the righteous with the wicked: and that the righteous should be as the wicked, that be far from thee: Shall not the Judge of all the earth do right?”
The whole idea of being saved is that believers will not incur the wrath of God, here or in eternity.
Yours in Christ~
Barbara
Barbara LeFevre says
September 2, 2012 at 12:05 pmSorry, Steve! My comment was directed to Tom, not you. I looked at the wrong name when I wrote my response. Also, Tom, my last line is totally irrelevant to the point you were making, so I also apologize for that.
Barbara
Steve says
August 29, 2012 at 9:37 pmTom,
you can indeed believe in a mid/post trib removal of the saints from earth. I won’t try to stop you.
I however do not see it by your points. The wicked one cannot be revealed while the Holy Spirit remains. We’re sealed by Him. If he leaves us here– the seal is broken. I see nothing in the bible where we read that the seal we’re given by God is ever severed.
Have you ever found one? If so, please– show me.
As Jesus said in John 14, we’re given the Comforter, whom he called– the Holy Spirit. In John 14:16, we read that the Holy Spirit will remain with us forever.
This is clear. No ambiguity here. The Holy Spirit will never leave us.
So, again, I have to ask– since the Spirit leaves earth, allowing the man of sin to be revealed, if he remains with us forever, why would he leave us here on earth, when the worst events in the entirety of human history were about to take place?
There are far more questions I could ask. These however, in my numerous posts are it for now.
So, please… explain these, and provide passages to back up your views.
Thank you.
Grace and Peace be with you,
In Christ.
Num 6:24-26, Titus 2:11-14, Phil 1:6, 3:15,
SteveB.
Tom Webster says
August 30, 2012 at 1:03 pmSteve,
Grace and peace to you also. Iron sharpens iron and I appreciate the opportunity to respond to your questions.
It is true that Jesus will never leave you.
But you can leave Him…
YOU must “abide in the vine(Jesus)”
If a man abide not in me, he is cast forth as a branch, and is withered; and men gather them, and cast them into the fire, and they are burned. [John 15:6(KJV)]
The AMPLIFIED version is a little clearer:
If a person does not dwell in Me, he is thrown out like a [broken-off] branch, and withers; such branches are gathered up and thrown into the fire, and they are burned.
–> only believers are “branches”
–> if you leave Jesus, if you cease to abide in Him, you will be BURNED.
And the desire and plan is that The Holy Spirit will abide with you forever:
…that He (The Holy Spirit) MAY abide with you for ever [John 14:16]
This is not a guarantee, however. In one of my earlier posts, I showed how Matthew 24:48-51 specifically tells how “evil servants” (Carnal Christians) will end up in Hell.
Those [believers] who turn “the grace of our God into lasciviousness” will also forfeit their salvation.
THOSE WHO “FALL AWAY”
4 For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted of the heavenly gift, and were made partakers of the Holy Ghost,
5 And have tasted the good word of God, and the powers of the world to come,
6 If they shall FALL AWAY, to renew them again unto repentance; seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put him to an open shame.
Once they have “fallen away” back into UNBELIEF, they are LOST forever (unable to repent) – these are true apostates
Since you referenced Titus 2, verse 12 backs up the truth that every believer must actively resist sin, lusts, ungodliness and that you cannot use grace as a license to sin:
Teaching us that, denying ungodliness and worldly lusts, we should live soberly, righteously, and godly, in this present world;
HEBREWS 12:14 (KJV)
Follow peace with all men, and [personal] holiness, without which no man shall see the Lord: {I added ‘personal’ for clarity}
The AMPLIFIED version makes it even clearer:
Strive to live in peace with everybody and pursue that consecration and holiness without which no one will [ever] see the Lord.
Steve says
August 30, 2012 at 3:24 pmIndeed, we can choose to leave Jesus.
There’s a problem here however, in this connection you’ve made– we’re not talking about people who leave off following Jesus, with regards to the rapture. We’re (or, perhaps I should state– that’s who I’m talking about) talking about dead-on, close to the heart, right on Jesus’ heels, followers. People who do not leave, but those who are faithful to the end, who’ve prayed faithfully, as Jesus said– pray always that you may be accounted worthy to stand before the Son of Man, and escape those things …… Luke 21:36
Which passage in fact brings up another interesting point…. the fact that there are those who shall escape judgment.
Another problem with the whole– mid/post trib rapture concept. We’d actually know the day that he’d be coming, because by then we’d know the timing of the 7 year/3-1/2 years of tribulation. I.e., Daniel tells us– 1290 days from the abomination that makes desolate.
THen, the more I consider this whole mid/post trib thing… the more I remember, the whole basis of this, that I’ve heard for the past 3 decades, is that it’s based entirely on people who don’t actually follow Jesus that closely– as you stated in your points. These are half-hearted, not really following, etc…. people.
The rapture is for people– that I’ve always known of– whom God, and Jesus consider to be close on his heels. It’s for people whom he defines as “worthy to escape those things….”
So, tell you what…. instead of focusing on the angst of being here during a period of judgment of sin, focus on following Jesus. He made it clear– that you can in fact do something to affect your “worthiness” scale in his perspective, and that is to pray always…. Luke 21:36.
I came to a place in my life a number of years ago where I realized all too well my ineptitude at following close on his heels. He and I kept going back and forth on my living the life for him, and it finally dawned on me that my issue wasn’t that I was a complete and total failure at following him (which I was, in every sense of the word). The issue was– would I trust Him to accomplish what he’d promised in His Word, in my life.
Once I got over my fears of failure– also by praying– God, I’m a failure (Prov24:16). No matter how good I am, I constantly break your laws. I try, and try, and try, and I just keep failing– I said: ok, here I am. Weakness, failure, stupidity and all, please live the life in, and through me.
At that point, it was like a whole new arena opened to me, and I no longer had to struggle (what can I say, I’m a recovering perfectionist). I now just believe Him, learn from him, and leave the really hard stuff– living the life– to him.
Yes, I have plenty of responsibility. What I no longer have however is the struggle to do right by him– by keeping the law. When I sin, 1 John 1:9-2:1, Ps 103, Jeremiah 3:13. When I feel dirty, ugly, unrighteous– 2 Cor. 5:21, Hebrews 10:8-14. When I feel stupid, tongue-tied, can’t speak about Jesus– John 14:26-29. When I feel afraid, and want to hide… Matt 28:19-20, Heb 4:14-5:1, 10:15-24.
Now, my life is spent focusing on what I can do, instead of what I’ve failed at doing.
I cannot believe how freeing it’s been doing this. My sins are forgiven, my conscience is clear, and I am now a free man… Psalm 32.
Eric says
August 29, 2012 at 1:09 pmVery good points. Jesus spends most of the chapter giving the disciples signs of the times so that they will know that His coming is near. Just like the fig tree, they will know His coming is almost here, but they will not know the precise day or hour when He will come.
Tom Webster says
September 4, 2012 at 6:33 amThe AMPLIFIED Bible, which amplifies the original language, has the translation accurately:
But of that [exact] day and hour no one knows, not even the angels of heaven, nor the Son, but only the Father.
You will know His coming is near by the signs, which increase in both amplitude/strength and frequency like labor pains, and by the Tribulation and the celestial signs. However, you will not know the EXACT day and hour.
Jerry S. says
August 29, 2012 at 4:45 pmJustin, Tell us more about the “idiom(s) of the time in which He lived” There ia a lot to be learned not only from the “times” but also the “culture” in which HE lived.
J.
Tom Webster says
August 29, 2012 at 5:58 pmSurely the Lord God will do nothing without revealing His secret to His servants the prophets. [Amos 3:7 (AMP)]
FOOTNOTE FROM AMPLIFIED BIBLE FOR AMOS 3:7
God has always warned the world of coming judgments in order that it may not bring them upon itself. He warned Noah of the coming flood (Gen. 6:13ff.); Abraham and Lot of the future destruction of Sodom (Gen. 18:17; 19:14); Joseph of the seven-year famine (Gen. 41:30); Moses of the ten plagues on Egypt (Exod. 7:1ff.); Jonah of the destruction of Nineveh (Jonah 1:2; 3:4); Amos of the downfall of Syria, Philistia, Tyre, Edom, Ammon, Moab, Judah, and Israel (Amos 1 and 2). Various prophets were told in detail about the final events in connection with the captivities of the chosen people, and in every case the warnings were startlingly executed. Jonah announced the destruction of Nineveh, but judgment was postponed following repentance. When later generations of Ninevites backslid and reverted to extreme wickedness, the warning of Nahum was carried out completely against them. Christ’s coming was foretold throughout the Old Testament, from Genesis to Malachi. Equally plain and inevitable of fulfillment are the warnings of Jesus and the prophets concerning the future that each day comes nearer to every nation on earth.
Jesus had already given his disciples [orally] the so-called “signs of the end-times” in Matthew 24. However, these were not published as Scripture until later.
In Acts chapter 1, the disciples did NOT ask Jesus the same question (i.e. what will be the sign of the end of the epoch). They asked Him if He was going to restore the kingdom to Israel, which is a different question.
6 When they therefore were come together, they asked of him, saying, Lord, wilt thou at this time restore again the kingdom to Israel?
7 And he said unto them, It is not for you to know the times or the seasons, which the Father hath put in his own power.
The time when Jesus told them this was before they had received the infilling/baptism of the Holy Spirit (with power). It was before they understood much of the current NT “Church Age.” For example, Peter did not understand under later that salvation was open to the Gentiles.
Do we really believe that the disciples were NEVER to understand anything about the events and [relative] timing of His coming and the end of the age/epoch?
Actually, the 2 angels, perhaps knowing that the rapture was not imminent, had to tell them to stop gazing up at the clouds! At least, they critical information: this same Jesus will so come as you have seen Him go up. His feet left from the mount of Olives and they will return to the mount of Olives (Zech. 14:4).
The Gospels are published and the prophet Paul is given specific revelation that the “gathering together” is a phase of the resurrection:
13 But I would not have you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning them which are asleep, that ye sorrow not, even as others which have no hope.
14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him.
15 For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep.
16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:
17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.
18 Wherefore comfort one another with these words.
Furthermore, his revelation continues in 1 Thess. 5 (remember the chapter points are artificial and often selected poorly):
1 But of the times and the seasons, brethren, ye have no need that I write unto you.
2 For yourselves know perfectly that the day of the Lord so cometh as a thief in the night.
3 For when they shall say, Peace and safety; then sudden destruction cometh upon them, as travail upon a woman with child; and they shall not escape.
4 But ye, brethren, are NOT in darkness, that that day should overtake you as a thief.
(Christians who study their Bibles will NOT be surprised)
You will SEE the DAY OF THE LORD approaching…
Not forsaking the assembling of ourselves together, as the manner of some is; but exhorting one another: and so much the more, AS YE SEE THE DAY APPROACHING.
You know the day is approaching by the signs Jesus gave us in Matthew 24 and from Paul’s teachings:
2 Thessalonians 2:1-
Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto him,
2 That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand.
3 Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;
4 Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God.
5 Remember ye not, that, when I was yet with you, I told you these things?
[The DAY OF THE LORD “shall not come” before the man of lawlessness is revealed]
Paul also taught the resurrection occurring at the LAST TRUMP:
1 Cor. 15
51 Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed,
52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.
However, it was not until John was given the Revelation of Jesus Christ that much more detailed information about the events of the end of the age was provided…
It is true that the exact day of His coming cannot be known. However, you will see the time approaching…
Dee B says
August 30, 2012 at 2:22 pmNot to put too fine a point on it or repeat what has been said, but it seems to me that there are 2 events happening. The first event Paul tells us, is the “catching away” (Greek meaning) of all believers (Jew and Gentiles) and meeting Jesus in the air. According to the scripture He doesn’t set foot on the earth. This event also appears to be more than an extension of the resurrection of the dead, because those that are alive at that time will also be changed, in order, in the same event and everyone carried away. Until he changed his mind, Paul thought this event would happen in his lifetime, imminently.
The second event I see occurs when Jesus comes into the earth as King to receive His kingdom, and actually stands on the Mt. of Olives. It doesn’t appear that the mid-air catching away happens after Jesus’ actual second coming. It seems to me that Jesus, in Matthew 24 is referring to second event. Don’t know when that is but there are signs that still must happen first. I don’t expect to be around at that time. But no signs are given to signal the catching away event that I can see, other than that believers will know because of the indwelling of the Holy Spirit. Does anyone else see a 2-event coming of Jesus?
Grace and Peace,
Dee
Tom Webster says
August 30, 2012 at 3:31 pmHi Dee,
So Christ was once offered to bear the sins of many; and unto them that look for him shall he appear the second time without sin unto salvation. [Hebrews 9:28]
Jesus comes/appears “the second time” unto salvation, which is G4991. “future salvation,” which includes your resurrection body.
The events in Matthew 24 are somewhat overlapping and are not precisely linear. So the beginning of sorrows (labor pains) overlap or occur concurrently. The resurrection/rapture occurs at the LAST TRUMP (Trumpet #7), which is after the start of the Tribulation, but before the bowl judgments. {see also Rev 10:7}
We will meet the Lord in the air, after the dead in Christ rise first. You will not rise to meet Him before your body has been transformed (that is what happens in the twinkling of an eye). Hebrews 9:28 confirms that this is His second appearing.
Many people expect this to be somehow secret or like a covert operation, but the Scriptures speak only of it being very visible (e.g. Matthew 24:27). See also Rev 6:12-16.
1 Thess 4:16-17
16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:
17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.
The SHOUT by our Creator who spoke the world into existence does not seem to be a covert op. However, the marriage of the Lamb occurs before Armageddon (Rev 19), which possibly could translate to some short amount of time on the earth. However, Jesus ascended from the mount of Olives and seems to “land” on the mount of Olives (Zech 14 & Acts 1). Perhaps you could view this as a separate event (glorious appearing after the resurrection/rapture) but the Greek word translated as “appear” in Hebrews 9:28 means “to allow one’s self to be SEEN.”
Just my 2 cents, but it is a good thought-provoking question… God bless, Tom
Dee B says
September 1, 2012 at 12:44 pmHi Tom,
Your comments sent me into another wonderful time of study and prayer to see and understand what the Lord is telling us about His plan. I am not being picky. The Lord tells us that the Holy Ghost chose the words and our study to understand them is lifelong. And I am not necessarily trying to refute your points because many of them I do see in the scripture. However, they don’t all seem to fall in line with your overall view relating to Matthew 24, or shed light on the obvious judgement and non-judgement events here on the earth.
I am not here to make a case for any tribulation doctrine because I know that Jesus is coming for me whether I am here or awaiting my change in His presence. I just love the fellowship in the Light. Jesus is helping me and all other saints through the tribulations and persecutions we are going through right now as part of His elect. But there appears to be many indications that the body of the Lord (made up of Jews and gentiles) is not a part of the judgement and condemnation of the world, but the elect Jews are, and still on earth after the tribulation begins, the fullness of the gentiles having come in. (Romans 11:25-29, 32) I am taking this slow.
Overall, I see Jesus coming for us His saints as a non-judging event, unless there is a lull in the judgement events (initiated from heaven) with Jesus coming down in the midst for His ekklesia. I don’t see this in the scriptures.
It seems that these 2 verses describe the same event:
1Cr 15:52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.
1Th 4:16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:
Interestingly, Paul wrote this at least 35 years or so before John received the revelation of Jesus the Messiah. One verse says the trump, one says last trump, but is the last trump the 7th judgement trump or the last trump the earthly saints need to heed? Compare Isa 18:3. Revelations says of the 7th trump that when it begins to be blown (Rev 10:7) and is fully blown (Rev 11:15), it signals “The kingdoms of this world are become [the kingdoms] of our Lord, and of his Messiah”. The end of the evil age?
In the Matthew 24:31, Jesus tells His Jewish disciples that He will send His angels to gather the elect. It seems He is talking about the elect remnant, representative of the whole nation of Israel, that remain on the earth after the start of the tribulation (Romans 11:2, 5, 7, 29; Rev 9:4 and other OT references). It is important to note that here, Jesus doesn’t descend Himself but sends His angels to gather together in this event. However, it is emphatically stated in 1 Th 4:16 that the Lord Himself comes, with His angels possibly (2Th 1:7) in the non-judgement catching away. The 6th seal (before the 1st trumpet), I believe, relates to identification of this elect in Matthew 24 who are Jews from all 12 tribes (Rev 7:3; 9:4). The 4 angels are told to hold up everything until they are sealed. The language of Matthew 24:31 is “gathering together”, not catching away. Compare Isaiah 27:13.
Again, interestingly, Rev 7:9-17, after the 6th seal, tells us that there is already innumerable people of all nations in white robes who were already at the throne, blood washed. (These are not the martyred saints who are revealed under the 5th seal.) It is true that Matthew 24 is not linear, but it appears that Revelations is not either.
I love the worship of the redeemed, elders and beasts in Revelation. It causes my spirit to swell and my heart to beat fast. Even so Lord, come.
Johnny says
August 31, 2012 at 9:18 amIn 1st Thes 4:16-17 it never states the timing and it never states where we are going after we meet the Lord in the air.
What we do know is that in Acts when Jesus ascended from the Mount of Olives, the Disciples we’re told that Jesus would return in the same manner.
Acts 1:9-11
9 Now when He had spoken these things, while they watched, He was taken up, and a cloud received Him out of their sight. 10 And while they looked steadfastly toward heaven as He went up, behold, two men stood by them in white apparel, 11 who also said, “Men of Galilee, why do you stand gazing up into heaven? This same Jesus, who was taken up from you into heaven, will so come in like manner as you saw Him go into heaven.”
This is what they were looking for, a return to the mount of Olives in Jerusalem. Not a secret two stage coming.
We see this return after the Tribulation in Zechariah 14
Zechariah 14:1-7
Chapter 14
The Day of the Lord
1 Behold, the day of the Lord is coming,
And your spoil will be divided in your midst.
2 For I will gather all the nations to battle against Jerusalem;
The city shall be taken,
The houses rifled,
And the women ravished.
Half of the city shall go into captivity,
But the remnant of the people shall not be cut off from the city.
3 Then the Lord will go forth
And fight against those nations,
As He fights in the day of battle.
4 And in that day His feet will stand on the Mount of Olives,
Which faces Jerusalem on the east.
And the Mount of Olives shall be split in two,
From east to west,
Making a very large valley;
Half of the mountain shall move toward the north
And half of it toward the south.
5 Then you shall flee through My mountain valley,
For the mountain valley shall reach to Azal.
Yes, you shall flee
As you fled from the earthquake
In the days of Uzziah king of Judah.
Thus the Lord my God will come,
And ALL THE SAINTS WITH YOU.
6 It shall come to pass in that day
That there will be no light;
The lights will diminish.
7 It shall be one day
Which is known to the Lord —
Neither day nor night.
But at evening time it shall happen
That it will be light.
The catching up in 1st Thes 4:16-17 is simply a precursor event leading up to Jesus Return to the mount of Olives with all His Saints. It is a gathering of the great assembly. Not a secret catching away to heaven.
Notice vs. 6
“It shall come to pass in that day
That there will be no light;
The lights will diminish.”
This is the same that Jesus references in Matthew 24 where He places His return AFTER the great Tribulation.
Matthew 24:29-31
29 “ Immediately AFTER the tribulation of those days the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light; the stars will fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens will be shaken. 30 Then the sign of the Son of Man will appear in heaven, and then all the tribes of the earth will mourn, and they will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. 31 And He will send His angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they will gather together His elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.
The Zechariah passage is the same as when Paul clearly states the timing of the Rapture.
2 Thessalonians 1:6-8
since it is a righteous thing with God to repay with tribulation those who trouble you, 7 and to give you who are troubled rest with us WHEN the Lord Jesus is revealed from heaven with His mighty angels, 8 in flaming fire taking vengeance on those who do not know God, and on those who do not obey the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ.
As far as immanency, Paul wrote those “proof texts” while Peter was still alive. Peter was prophesied to die at an Old age in John 21:18-19. Obviously immanency was not possible before Peter died and to say Paul taught immanency while Peter was still alive is contradictory.
Dee B says
September 1, 2012 at 1:28 pmHi Johnny,
I want to respond to your comments about what I wrote.
You said: “In 1st Thes 4:16-17 it never states the timing and it never states where we are going after we meet the Lord in the air.”
You are correct, God never gives a timing and neither did I. But 1 Thessalonians 4:17 tells us that after we are “caught away”, (out of the earth do you think?), “so shall we ever be with the Lord.” It doesn’t appear we will be just hanging around in the clouds with Jesus. We are citizens of heaven, after all.
You also said: “This is what they were looking for, a return to the mount of Olives in Jerusalem. Not a secret two stage coming…”,and “The catching up…is simply a precursor event leading up to Jesus Return to the mount of Olives with all His Saints. It is a gathering of the great assembly. Not a secret catching away to heaven.”
I am very sure that what I wrote did not indicate a secret 2-stage coming or catching away to heaven. You have assumed that argument. It is a straw man. And I am not clear what you mean by “simply a precursor event.” In fact, I was pretty clear that I believe Jesus’ actual second coming to the earth in the manner described in Acts 1:9-11 is His standing on the Mt. of Olives. It was His meeting the saints in the air (meaning not setting His feet on the ground) that is different than the what is said in Acts 1:9-11.
Concerning your comment to me about immanency, the catching away of the saints and Paul’s teaching it, I will just repeat what I actually said to answer what you say I said.
“Until he changed his mind, Paul thought this event would happen in his lifetime, imminently.”
Jesus is Lord!
Dee
Johnny says
September 1, 2012 at 7:52 pmDee,
I apologise if I misunderstood you.
This is what you wrote:
Not to put too fine a point on it or repeat what has been said, but it seems to me that there are 2 events happening. The first event Paul tells us, is the “catching away” (Greek meaning) of all believers (Jew and Gentiles) and meeting Jesus in the air. According to the scripture He doesn’t set foot on the earth. This event also appears to be more than an extension of the resurrection of the dead, because those that are alive at that time will also be changed, in order, in the same event and everyone carried away. Until he changed his mind, Paul thought this event would happen in his lifetime, imminently.
“The second event I see occurs when Jesus comes into the earth as King to receive His kingdom, and actually stands on the Mt. of Olives. It doesn’t appear that the mid-air catching away happens after Jesus’ actual second coming. It seems to me that Jesus, in Matthew 24 is referring to second event. Don’t know when that is but there are signs that still must happen first. I don’t expect to be around at that time. But no signs are given to signal the catching away event that I can see, other than that believers will know because of the indwelling of the Holy Spirit. Does anyone else see a 2-event coming of Jesus?”
END QUOTE
It seem to me like you said exactly what I replied to. Not a straw man. What I meant by a “precursor event” is that these two things (catching away of believers, and the return to the mount of olives) happen back to back as part of the same event. There is only one second coming.
As far as your comment here:
“Until he changed his mind, Paul thought this event would happen in his lifetime, imminently.”
I’m a little confused, are you saying Paul taught things that were scripturally incorrect and then changed his mind about them?
Dee B says
September 14, 2012 at 6:02 amWell Johnny,
I am sorry it took so long to get back to you, but I was not sure I should respond. But I now have the freedom to do so.
Simply repeating what I wrote does not show that I said there would be a SECRET coming, which you continually insist is being said. Neither did I say a 2-stage coming, no matter how many times you repeat it. You are the one talking about stages. To be clear, I wrote:
“…it seems to me that there are 2 events happening. The first event Paul tells us, is the “catching away” (Greek meaning) of all believers (Jew and Gentiles) and meeting Jesus in the air. According to the scripture He doesn’t set foot on the earth….The second event I see occurs when Jesus comes into the earth as King to receive His kingdom, and actually stands on the Mt. of Olives….It seems to me that Jesus, in Matthew 24 is referring to second event….Does anyone else see a 2-event coming of Jesus?”
That is what I said. That is not what you said I said and, therefore argued against your own points, which is confusion. The scriptures I refer to are clearly not talking about anything secret. So, yes, Johnny, those are straw man arguments you make. Like the one on immanency. Clearly, I was not talking about Paul’s teaching on Jesus’ appearance, but his expectation of Jesus’ immediate return to include himself as well as all saints. It is obvious that he realized Jesus’ was not returning in his lifetime as he told us he finished his course and that deceivers would come in after he was gone.
It is not edifying to anyone to misquote and manufacture arguments for the sake of having an opposing view. In fact, it is dishonest discourse. I am sorry you feel the need to do this.
Grace and peace,
Dee
Debi C. says
August 30, 2012 at 6:11 amAll I know is that because of this refreshing lesson, I don’t have to worry about when Jesus is coming back. I can just carry on, living with the Holy Spirit as a deposit in my heart, guaranteeing my inheritance, giving me power to speak and act and growing in the grace of God, and keep following Jesus until that appointed time that my physical body breathes its last breath.
D.
Steve says
August 30, 2012 at 7:40 am” I don’t have to worry about when Jesus is coming back. I can just carry on, living with the Holy Spirit as a deposit in my heart, guaranteeing my inheritance, giving me power to speak and act and growing in the grace of God, and keep following Jesus until that appointed time that my physical body breathes its last breath.”
Couldn’t have said it better myself!
We do know that Jesus is coming back. We do know that the Holy Spirit is given as a guarantee/deposit/down-payment/seal of our inheritance in Christ.
We don’t need to know the specifics of when– day/hour, pre-mid-post-trib, a-mil/pre-mil/post-mil.
We know the times and the seasons, as we know the weather for a given day, based on the color of the sky at sunrise and sunset.
Jesus told us– occupy till I come.
So… Maranatha!!!!!!!
vandy says
August 30, 2012 at 7:49 amI think its exciting to see the signs of the times! I don’t worry about it, but I desire his coming because this is only my temporary home!
Tom Webster says
August 30, 2012 at 2:25 pmAMEN! The end-times are supposed to be exciting!
Much of the discussion has been on the antichrist and some of the negative aspects of the end-times, but
“When the enemy shall come in like a flood, the Spirit of the Lord shall lift up a standard against him.” [Is 59:19b]
We haven’t talked about THE COMING GLORY and the manifestation of the sons of God:
18 For I reckon that the sufferings of this present time are not worthy to be compared with the glory which shall be revealed in us.
19 For the earnest expectation of the creature waiteth for the manifestation of the sons of God.
2 Peter 1:19 (AMP)
And we have the prophetic word [made] firmer still. You will do well to pay close attention to it as to a lamp shining in a dismal (squalid and dark) place, until the day breaks through [the gloom] and the Morning Star rises (comes into being) in your hearts.
Dee B says
August 30, 2012 at 2:25 pmAmen, Vandy. And we get to be with Jesus and get bodies like His!
Jerry S. says
August 31, 2012 at 4:54 pmIf I may, I would like to focus on Act 1:6 KJV as mentioned in Justin’s article. Particularly the words “restore again the kingdom to Israel?”. Along with “kingdom” I see the words “restore”, “again” and “to”. Now unless the Greek grammatical structure and or syntax some how changes the meaning I put to them, then this “kingdom” is nothing more than – a restored commonwealth that previously existed and was taken away by the Romans and was expected by those “men of Galilee” to be returned to them by their KING as Luke was explaining it to Theophilus. The Act 1:3 KJV “kingdom of God” is this very same “kingdom to Israel” later mentioned in verse 6. When Yeshua returns to take David’s throne in Jerusalem HE will be establishing the very same kingdom described in the, count them, nine (9) chapters of Eze 40-48 KJV. Notice particularly Eze 43:7 KJV. With as much detail as is described it is hard, at least for me, to see this as some mystical kingdom that can be seen, experienced, felt, understood, etc… if we just had enough faith. GOD is the only one who is faithful to the extent needed. This truth is the reason why “behold a smoking furnace, and a burning lamp that passed” alone while Abraham slept in Gen 15:17 KJV. Thank you.
J.
Johnny says
August 31, 2012 at 5:34 pmJerry,
You are right, the Kingdom of God and the restored Jerusalem are the same. When the disciples asked: “Lord, will You at this time restore the kingdom to Israel?” Jesus had just finished teaching them for:
“forty days and speaking of the things pertaining to the kingdom of God”
To imply that they didn’t understand the nature of the kingdom after this you would have to conclude that Jesus wasn’t a good teacher. This would be an obviously false conclusion. You also would have to ignore the other fact that occurred prior to His ascension.
Luke 24:45
And He opened their understanding, that they might comprehend the Scriptures.
They understood completely the unconditional land inheritance promised to Abraham. They understood the “Son” of God in Psalm 2 who is the King of the Kingdom.
Psalms 2:7-8
“I will declare the decree:
The Lord has said to Me,
‘You are My Son,
Today I have begotten You.
8 Ask of Me, and I will give You
The nations for Your inheritance,
And the ends of the earth for Your possession.
Psalms 37:9-13
For evildoers shall be cut off;
But those who wait on the Lord,
They shall inherit the earth.
10 For yet a little while and the wicked shall be no more;
Indeed, you will look carefully for his place,
But it shall be no more.
11 But the meek shall inherit the earth,
And shall delight themselves in the abundance of peace.
12 The wicked plots against the just,
And gnashes at him with his teeth.
13 The Lord laughs at him,
For He sees that his day is coming.
Matthew 5:5
Blessed are the meek,
For they shall inherit the earth.
Jerry S. says
September 2, 2012 at 5:27 pmStrikingly quite here. According to what I’ve read by Oswald Chambers author of the sermons and messages presented in arguably the most popular devotional collection of all time… we are all susceptible of placing many things before our worship of Yeshua the man. It seems to me that our theology (faith), like the bible, is one of those idols that can creep its way in front of HIM who alone is worthy and is alone faithful. I’m so glad “HE IS”.
J.