Examining the Greek: Emphatic Negations in Matthew 13 (part 2)

Comments

1. Tim says

   June 13, 2012 at 4:25 pm

   It’s quiet because there is a lot to digest. However, does the text state or imply that God created them without the ability to make the choice? Or, according to His infinite foreknowledge, does He confirm their hardness of heart?
   Although we might be able to grasp a small portion of each of His attributes, when we begin to realize His infiniteness, then we finally must ‘walk by faith’ and conclude, ‘what is man that, You oh Lord, are mindful of him!’, and rely completely on His mercy.

   • Deborah says

     June 14, 2012 at 5:40 am

     Everyone knows that the Trinity created Adam a free moral agent. To even ask the question, did God create someone without the ability to make a choice is Calvanistic. Everyone makes a choice to believe the Gospel or not believe. We certainly do NOT rely on God’s mercy to save us, we choose Him. Your theological school indoctrination is quite apparent.

     • Justin Alfred says

       June 14, 2012 at 1:17 pm

       Dear Deborah:

       I want to thank you first of all for your response to the Blog of Matthew 13. However, you made four comments that need to be addressed, not only for you directly, but for eveyone else who might read this Blog and your comment.
       First of all, in response to your comment, “To even ask the question, did God create someone without the ability to make a choice is Calvinistic.” Unfortunately, since the Reformation, we tend to categorize theological emphases by “isms” – e.g., Calvinism, Arminianism, Wesleyanism, Pentecostalism, Amillennialism,Premillennialism, Postmellennialism, and on and on – with the ultimate effect that when we hear something that has come to be identified with one of these “isms,” we either embrace, reject, or ignore what is being said. On the other hand, the greater tragedy that I see is that many individuals have come to the place of looking at and reading the Bible through the eyes of one of these “isms,” versus looking at these “isms” through Scripture. This is absolutely nothing new, as Paul delineates the problem quite well in I Corinthians 3:1-9: “And I, brethren, could not speak to you as to spiritual men, but as to men of flesh, as to babes in Christ. 2 I gave you milk to drink, not solid food; for you were not yet able to receive it. Indeed, even now you are not yet able, 3 for you are still fleshly. For since there is jealousy and strife among you, are you not fleshly, and are you not walking like mere men? 4 For when one says, “I am of Paul,” and another, “I am of Apollos,” are you not mere men? 5 What then is Apollos? And what is Paul? Servants through whom you believed, even as the Lord gave opportunity to each one. 6 I planted, Apollos watered, but God was causing the growth. 7 So then neither the one who plants nor the one who waters is anything, but God who causes the growth. 8 Now he who plants and he who waters are one; but each will receive his own reward according to his own labor. 9 For we are God’s fellow workers; you are God’s field, God’s building” (I Corinthians 3:1-9). Thus, in response to your statement that “To even ask the question, did God create someone without the ability to make a choice is Calvinistic,” I would like to say that “Calvinism” has nothing to do with it, but rather what is central is biblicalt truth. Therefore, what does the whole of Scripture have to say with reference to man’s choice? This is the question that confronts you and all of us from a biblical perspective, not what did Calvin, Arminius, Wesley, Whitfield, Edwards, and Schaeffer say, nor what does Graham, Stanley, Smith, Mohler, MacArthur or any other modern day pastor or teacher say concerning any subject. I believe that this is what John was in part referring to in the following passage: “And as for you, the anointing which you received from Him abides in you, and you have no need for anyone to teach you; but as His anointing teaches you about all things, and is true and is not a lie, and just as it has taught you, you abide in Him” (I John 2:27). Therefore, I have no real concern about what John Calvin, Jacob Arminius, or Charles Wesley may have to say concerning this matter, but my primary concern is, what does the Scripture say? Now it may be that what the Bible says also happens to be in agreement with one of these “isms,” but that particular “ism” is not my source of truth, but rather God’s Word is. Therefore, my goal and aim in life is not be a “Calvinist,” an “Arminianist,” a “Wesleyanist,” or a “Pentacostalist,” but rather a “Biblicist.” Thus, what I present in these Blogs may be an agreement with one of the “isms” above, but that is only because the “ism” in question may hold to that particualr view, and not because I am trying to advocate any particular “ism” – my advocacy is for the whole truth of God’s Word, regardless of any “ism’s” agreement or not.
       Seconcly, your statement, “Everyone makes a choice to believe the Gospel or not believe” is absolutely correct, and we see that call to “believe” replete throughout the entire Bible.
       Thirdly, the greatest concern I have for you, and anyone else reading your post is this next statement, “WE certainly do NOT rely on God’s mercy to save us, we choose Him.” Deborah, from a biblical perspective, I could not disagree with you more emphatically because apart from God’s mercy, NO ONE WOULD COME TO CHRIST! Again, as replete as the Bible is with references to calling us to “believe,” so too is it replete with references to God’s mercy being a primary ingredient in bringing us to the point of “believing” and “choosing Him.” The actual Greek noun for “mercy” is eleos, which also means “compassion, pity, and clemency,” and the verb is eleeo, which in essence means “to be greatly concerned about someone in need, to have compassion and pity on someone.” Having seen this, therefore, Romans 9:14-18 is quite clear about God’s “mercy” being the means by which we are enabled to come to Him and choose to believe in Him: “What shall we say then? There is no injustice with God, is there? May it never be! 15 For He says to Moses, “I will have mercy on whom I have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I have compassion.” 16 So then it does not depend on the man who wills or the man who runs, but on God who has mercy. 17 For the Scripture says to Pharaoh, “For this very purpose I raised you up, to demonstrate My power in you, and that My name might be proclaimed throughout the whole earth.” 18 So then He has mercy on whom He desires, and He hardens whom He desires” (Romans 9:14-18). His mercy, therefore, is once again the means by which Romans 10:8-13 becomes a relity in someone’s life: “But what does it say? “The word is near you, in your mouth and in your heart “– that is, the word of faith which we are preaching, 9 that if you confess with your mouth Jesus as Lord, and believe in your heart that God raised Him from the dead, you shall be saved; 10 for with the heart man believes, resulting in righteousness, and with the mouth he confesses, resulting in salvation. 11 For the Scripture says, “Whoever believes in Him will not be disappointed.” 12 For there is no distinction between Jew and Greek; for the same Lord is Lord of all, abounding in riches for all who call upon Him; 13 for “Whoever will call upon the name of the LORD will be saved” (Romans 10:8-13). In addition, Jesus makes it quite clear that it is not us seeking God, but rather God seeking us and drawing us unto Him, and He does that through His incredible mercy: “No one can come to Me, unless the Father who sent Me draws him; and I will raise him up on the last day” (John 6:44).
       The fourth and final statement that you made is also important because of your apparent assumption concerning me: “Your theological shool indocrtination is quite apparent.” First of all, Deborah, you do not even know me, let alone what I was taught in my educational background with reference to any theological emphasis, but you made an assumption based on your flawed perception without going to the “horse’s mouth,” which would be me, in finding out just what my background is. Now what you did far transcends me, you, and this Blog, and goes to the heart of our growth and maturity in Christ, and that is we need to go to the source, or if you will, the “horse’s mouth,” in order to find out the truth of any matter. Over the years God has allowed me to be in His ministry, I have seen time and time again men and women make faulty assumptions based on insufficient information. I was leading a married couples’ conference many years ago, and during our lunch break, one of the pastors made a comment about a very well known pastor with regard to something he supposedly said about Islam. I teach a 12 hour seminar on Islam, and so I am fairly familiar with the subject matter, but what this pastor told me this other pastor supposedly said was so radical, I told him I wanted to see with my own eyes the actual, substantiated content of this pastor’s statement. The next day, he came to me in a “sheepish” manner with the material he found, and amazingly it was the exact opposite of what he had told me – he was simply repeating what he had heard someone else say, who was also repeating what he had heard someone say, etc. He apologized for his error, and I told him that was a good learning experience for him. Therefor, Deborah, those who truly know me “first hand,” or who have ever taken the trouble to find out “first hand” my background, know that such a statement that you made, “You theological indoctrination is quite apparent,” is utter ludicrous. Thus, my suggestion to you is that you let this be a learning experience for you and begin to do the source of whatever it is you are researching in order to get the true facts. One other example of inadequate research has to do wiht a book I was asked to review many years ago. This particular author was writing a critique about Calvinism, and Calvinism, as well as every other “ism” certainly needs to be critiqued, but honestly, correctly, and properly, not in a “slip-shod” and flagrantly biased manner, which is what this particular critique turned out to be. At one point, the author of this critique wrote what he said was a direct quote from The Council of Dort, but the quote was startling: “But as man by the fall did not cease to be a creature, endowed with understanding
       and will, nor did sin which pervaded the whole race of mankind, deprive him of
       the human nature, but brought upon him depravity and spiritual death; so also the
       grace of regeneration does not treat man as senseless stocks and blocks, nor takes
       away their will and its properties, neither does violence thereto; but spiritually
       quickens, heals, corrects, and at the same time sweetly and powerfully ends it;
       that where carnal rebellion and resistance formerly prevailed, a ready and sincere
       spiritual obedience begins to reign; in which the true and spiritual restoration and
       freedom of our will consist” (Dave Hunt, “What Love is This,” p. 368). As I read the statement above, “but spiritually quickens, heals, corrects, and at the same time sweetly and powerfully ends it,” I was utterly and absolutely astonished at such a fallacious and inaccurate quote. What this author was trying to present in this tragically incorrect quote is that the Council of Dort was saying that the Holy Spirit “ends” the will of man, so that man comes to Christ and is born again apart from his choosing to do so because he has no will. In truth, however, what The Council of Dort actually said was the following, first in its Latin original: “. . . ita etiam haec divina regenerationis gratia, non agit in hominibus tanquam truncis et stipitibus, nec voluntatem ejusque proprietates tollit, aut invitam violenter cogit,sed spiritualiter vivificat, sanat, corrigit, suaviter simul ac potenter flectit: . . .” My English translation is as follows: “. . . so also this divine grace of regeneration, it does not perform in men as if [they are] lopped tree trunks and blockheads, neither does it take away [their] will and its properties, nor does it violently compel against one’s will, but it spiritually gives life, heals, corrects, sweetly and at the same time efficaciously it bends; . . .” The word that the author should have used in his Council of Dort translation was “bends,” not “ends,” as the Latin word is “flectit,” which comes from the Latin root form “flectere,” meaning “to turn and alter the direction of something.” Thus, what the Council of Dort was actually saying was that the Holy Spirit “bends” the will of man through convicting him of his sin, the righteousness of Jesus, and judgment (John 16:8-11), bringing him to the point of Romans 10:8-13 quoted above, where man then either repents and calls out to Jesus to be his Lord and Savior, or he rejects Jesus. The point to be made, Deborah, is that I want to encourage you, as well as everyone else who is reading this Blog, to do some serious research and fact finding before coming to conclusions on important issues, or even assumptions about people that end up being quite incorrect, as was your assumption about me.

       God bless you,

       Justin T. Alfred

     • Frank Zimmerman says

       June 16, 2012 at 4:47 am

       Deborah, I know we are not robots so to speak but Sin has killed us spiritually. Adams desire to commune with God was Gone. We have no desire to seek God or to be in a love relationship with him before the Spirit comes into our bodies at salvation.1 Cor chapter 1 is a good chapter to read also Romans 3 especially verse 11. Listen, Jesus came to seek and to save. He didn’t wait for everyone to find him he went to them and did the Father’s work.
       Any human being sitting in a service listening to the Gospel being preached can not respond in saving faith without the add of the Holy Spirit.
       John the Baptist who was uniquely prepared by God for a specific task was certanly a very spiritual man(filled with the Spirit from the womb, leaping in the womb etc.) but when he saw Jesus he did not even know who he was.see John 31-34.God had to tell him who Jesus was.Jesus asked Peter in Matt. 16:15″whom say ye that I am?” Peter speaks the truth and acknowledges who Jesus is but informs him it is because the Father has revealed it to him. Peter probably like me as a child thought that, well he just was able to reason it out while others were not able to do so, nope. Jesus said it was divine enablement just to kmow who he was.Just some things to think about if you read again. God bless

       • Frank Zimmerman says

         June 16, 2012 at 4:52 am

         Sorry, reference is John 1:31-34 for the revealing of Jesus as the messiah to John.

2. Debi C. says

   June 13, 2012 at 8:36 pm

   It could be quiet because maybe more than one person was getting an error message that the blog could not be accessed.

   I was not able to get the blog all day today (June 13) but tonight at 8:35PM, I am finally able to click on the link and actually see the blog.

   Yay!

3. Bob says

   June 13, 2012 at 9:08 pm

   Although I agree with the statement that God’s mysteries are revealed once someone accepts Jesus as Lord and Saviour, using the text “just as He chose us in Him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and blameless before Him” to establish some type of timeline is simply taking the verse out of context. The text only refers to that it is through Christ that we can be made holy and blameless. This was the plan since the foundation of the world (Christ is the Lamb slain since the foundation of the world Rev 13:8).
   Tim, your comment about His infiniteness is spot on, and as we begin to understand how incredible He is, we truly begin to see that without Christ all is vanity.

   • Justin Alfred says

     June 15, 2012 at 8:51 am

     Dear Bob:

     Thanks so much for your comment concerning the Blog of Matthew 13. And I can understand how you would believe that referencing Ephesians 1:3-14 with regard as to when “to you it has been granted” actually occurred is taken out of context. There are two major priorities that we have once we become believers, and they are evangelism (Acts 1:6-8) and discipling new believers (Matthew 28:19-20, which here also includes leading them to Christ, and I might add, the Navigtators Ministry, of which I am a part, is a leading example among Christian ministries of combining these two aspects). However, as we look at the context of Matthew 13:1-17, it is clear that at the time Jesus actually spoke this parable to not only the Jewish crowd, but to His disciples as well, that His disciples, at that time, didn’t really comprehend what He was saying any more than did the other Jews. In Luke 24:44-49, Jesus is appearing to His disciples after His resurrection, and in verse 45 it says “He opened their minds to understand the Scriptures,” and the parallel passage of this event in John 20:22 says that Jesus “breathed on them, and said to them, “Receive the Holy Spirit.” Thus, it was at this point when they were “born again by the Spirit of God,” and the Scripture did indeed become real and alive in their lives so that they were truly “witnesses of these things” (i.e., His birth, life, death, and the redemption purchased for mankind through all of this – Luke 24:46-48). Consequently, when we look at the Greek verb used in Matthew 13:11 for “it has been granted,” we see that the reality of that “granting” with regard to their “understanding” the Gospel had not, and did not occur at the time Jesus was speaking to His disciples in Matthew 13:11. The actual verb is “dedotai,” and it is what is called a perfect, passive, indicative verb, and what all of that means is that this “granting” had already occurred at some point, and the end result of that “granting” was already set in motion and was considered an accomplished fact, even though at the time Jesus spoke this to His disciples it had not yet occurred in their personal experience, but in God’s timetable, it was already completed. Therefore, all that being said, when we look at Ephesians 1:3-14, it appears to me that this is indeed the proper context to understand Jesus’ statement in Matthew 13:11 – that is, in God’s sight, it is already an accomplished fact, but it won’t become real for the disciples until they are personally born again, which occurred in Luke 24:44-49 & John 20:19-23.
     Thanks again for your response and bringing this very important aspect of Matthew 13:11 to the surface so that it could be better explained.

     God bless you,

     Justin T. Alfred

     • Bob says

       June 16, 2012 at 3:09 pm

       Mr. Alfred,
       Thanks for the feedback. I totally agree with your response. As a matter of fact I began my remarks with that agreement. Unfortunately, I did not make my comments clear. My scripture remark was based on Eph 1:4. ““just as He chose us in Him before the foundation of the world … “. This verse refers to, that since the foundation of the world, it had been established that salvation would be through Him (Christ). I do not see how the verse can be used to substantiate that Christ had determined since the foundation of the earth, those who would accept Him as Lord and Saviour. I am fully aware of the sovereignty of God and Him knowing all things. I just don’t see that verse as being correctly used in your column.
       Thanks again for your response and I welcome a clarification.

4. Frank Zimmerman says

   June 14, 2012 at 4:30 am

   Did God choose me or did I choose God?

   • Barbara LeFevre says

     June 14, 2012 at 8:58 am

     Frank~

     This may seem unfair, but because of our past, I won’t engage in any dialogue with you unless you want to address each of the previous examples that I have given which support that believers can lose their salvation, something which I have repeatedly welcomed but that neither you, PB, nor Tim and Penny have done. I hope you can at least understand how frustrating it is to put forth such a large amount of evidence against eternal security and all that entails, especially when I have done so at the request of others, only to have it ignored as though it is not even part of Scripture. I feel the need, here, to once again state that if I’m wrong, I truly want to know; however, that can only be done by addressing the examples and explanations that I have given, not by just telling me that I am wrong and choosing verses that appear to contradict what I have written. That said, I will answer your question, “Did God choose me or did I choose God?” We can find the answer if we look solely to the Word of God and let it speak for itself.

     As we know, the OT is the physical prophecy of the NT spiritual witness and, as such, there is a correlation found within each Testament with regard to being chosen. In the OT, God chose a physical people out of the world to be His people as the story of the deliverance from Egypt illustrates, and in the NT, God chooses a spiritual people out of the world to be His people as John 15:19 declares. We know that God, alone, initiated each covenant to gather a people unto Himself. In the OT, it was by way of physical descent as revealed through the Patriarchs Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob and culminating in Moses. In the NT, it is by way of spiritual revelation through Jesus Christ as the mediator of the new covenant (Heb. 12:24) and as the fulfillment of the law and the prophets (Matt. 5:17). Except for Deuteronomy 7:8, which says that God chose Abraham and his descendents because of His love for them, I think Scripture is silent regarding why He chose them over any other group; however, I came across something in researching this topic that I hadn’t realized before with regard to being the “chosen” of God. In neither covenant does God actually perform the actual saving act outside of the will of people, and this dispels the thought that God’s initiative is the sole reason for our salvation as some believe. In the new covenant, we read, “For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved” (Rom. 10:13), and we understand that, while God has provided a means of salvation, only those individuals who call upon His name will be saved. This same truth, however, is also found in the old covenant: “And it came to pass in process of time, that the king of Egypt died: and the children of Israel sighed by reason of the bondage, and they cried, and their cry came up unto God by reason of the bondage. And God heard their groaning, and God remembered his covenant with Abraham, with Isaac, and with Jacob” (Ex. 2:23-24; read also 3:7)). From the verses in both Testaments, then, we see that it was only when people cry unto the LORD, whether as a nation or as individuals, that the LORD remembers His covenant. It was only then when He intervenes and saves (chooses) them out of the world to be His people.

     The Bible is very clear about the order of salvation:

     1. God, alone, draws us:

     As John 6:44 says, “No one can come to Me unless the Father who sent Me draws him; and I will raise him up at the last day.”

     As Revelation 3:20 says, “”Behold, I stand at the door and knock. If anyone hears My voice and opens the door, I will come in to him and dine with him, and he with Me.”

     2. If anyone in the world (Jn. 3:16) “hears” and “opens the door,” he or she will DO the following:

     ~”REPENT therefore and be converted, that your sins may be blotted out, so that times of refreshing may come from the presence of the Lord” (Acts 3:19, caps mine).

     ~”that if you CONFESS with your mouth the Lord Jesus and BELIEVE in your heart that God has raised Him from the dead, you will be saved” (Rom. 10:9, caps mine).

     ~”For ‘whoever CALLS on the name of the LORD shall be saved'” (Rom. 10:13, caps mine).

     3. God, alone, saves us, chooses us out of the world in accordance to His plan before the foundation of the world.

     ~Romans 8:28-30
     ~Ephesians 1

     I’ll finish by reiterating something from a previous post. While we cannot understand how God’s sovereignty works in conjunction with mankind’s free will in every situation, it is unreasonable to think that we cannot understand it with regard to life’s most important issue, salvation, and we need to look no further than the story of Adam and Eve to get the exact answer. If there was a time in which God should have and could have pulled His “sovereignty card” to trump mankind’s free will with regard to salvation, this would have been the time and, yet, we see that this absolutely sovereign God allowed His creation to freely choose and reap the consequences even though it resulted in sin and death entering the world and total separation from the Creator. With all due respect, just how much clearer can it be?

     Barbara

     • Frank Zimmerman says

       June 15, 2012 at 4:53 am

       Concerning the issue of man’s salvation in the Church age primarily it would be expedient for all of the blog readers here to do a study on the doctrine of original sin. Look at its effects on man and exactly what limitations has Sin imposed on man regarding his relationship with God. For instance, man, (completely independent of God’s Spirit) is he jumping in his car and driving to the nearest Church in search of a relationship with God because he knows Hell is in his future? Nope, not that I have ever seen. My point is this look at unregenerate man, what can he do spirtually and what can he not do. Establish this teaching from scripture then move into the area of how does God save sinners?? It begins with our understanding of this teaching as it really did with Pelagius and Augustine. Also as Justin said don’t jump on a man’s bandwagon for whatever reason but weigh things against scripture and don’t be quick to make any decisions. The Spirit guides us into truth but we must be studying for this to happen and the most important thing is our heart preparation as we come humbly to the infinite mind of God as revealed in the scripture.

       • Barbara LeFevre says

         June 16, 2012 at 12:18 pm

         Frank~

         When you write things such as you have, here, I have to wonder if you even read what I write. It’s precisely because I do study Scripture that I absolutely know the effects of the original sin in addition to the Holy Spirit teaching me through my own life. Please, I would really like to know the reason why I would cite verses such John 6:44 and Revelation 3:20 if I am so oblivious as you imply? These verses aren’t used by me or anyone else except to show that mankind IS spiritually bankrupt and totally unable to come to God except that He intervenes in each person’s life and draws them. That’s the point of John 6:44. These verses are used by me and others to illustrate that God, ALONE and FIRST, initiates a relationship with fallen man. That is the point of Revelation 3:20. I have used these verses no fewer than half a dozen times, and yet you still persist in either ignoring or wrongly dividing what I say.

         In addition, the Bible that I use also repeatedly and very clearly says that man IS responsible for responding in specific ways to God’s drawing them and to Christ’s knocking on the door of their hearts in order to be saved, verses that are also ignored by you:

         ~ “REPENT therefore and be converted, that your sins may be blotted out, so that times of refreshing may come from the presence of the Lord” (Acts 3:19, caps mine).

         ~ “that if you CONFESS with your mouth the Lord Jesus and BELIEVE in your heart that God has raised Him from the dead, you will be saved” (Rom. 10:9, caps mine).

         ~ “For ‘whoever CALLS on the name of the LORD shall be saved’” (Rom. 10:13, caps mine).

         ~ “But as many as RECEIVED him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, [even] to them that BELIEVE on his name” (Jn. 1:12, caps mine).

         Then, as I wrote in the above post as well as previous posts, God, ALONE, saves us. He takes those of us who have affirmatively responded to His gracious intervention upon our lives and conveys us into the kingdom of God. He calls. We respond. He saves. That’s what Scripture says, and that’s what I’ve always written.

         I personally find it sad that the body of Christ can’t even agree as to how one is saved, given it is the singular most important doctrine in the Bible. How the enemy must be laughing at us. Rather than doing anything powerful and meaningful for God’s kingdom for ourselves or the world, we’re quibbling over a foundational issue, precisely the warning of Hebrews 6. If you don’t agree with me, that’s fine, but you need to cease formulating your opinion about what I believe out of thin air and use the EXACT verses and explanations that I have given because no one who has read and studied what I have written can rightfully come away with the conclusions about what I believe that you have posted.

         Barbara

     • Frank Zimmerman says

       June 16, 2012 at 12:37 pm

       Barbara I understand your feelings and thats fine. There are many Spirit filled men who have articulated better than I the reasons for eternal security being totally a rock solid teaching of scripture in many fine books at the bookstore. I would offer to you to purchase one and do your own study. If you never accept it that is your choice. But remember this, that the only safe place is “in Christ” and that it is a gift never to be earned and once received this position is not maintained by performance and conduct but by Grace plus nothing. We obey out of Love and never fear of losing our position.
       Fear has to be in your thinking somewhere if there exhists in your mind the reality of being severed from Christ. Jesus said fear not little flock because it is the Father’s good pleasure to give you the kingdom. I personally feel that you do not understand a child of God’s position in Christ and you bring performance and conduct into it. Relationship is that I am a child of God. Fellowship is me walking in obedience to my new Father.

       • Barbara LeFevre says

         June 16, 2012 at 1:27 pm

         Frank~

         I know Mormons and Jehovah’s Witnesses, and Catholics who can articulate their beliefs, too, but that doesn’t mean they’re right. I have read many articles and books that teach eternal security, including those written by the denomination I attend, and I have contrasted what they say with the whole counsel of God. The doctrine is biblically wrong because it can only be proven by proof texting, and if you were truly able to defend it, you would be able to address and prove wrong each and every one of the verses that I have cited over these past weeks and months, but you haven’t, even though I have asked you and asked you to show me why I am wrong over and above just telling me that I am and that I live in fear. The verses and my explanations haven’t been removed. Go to the May 18 blog and do a word search for “advocate.” There you will find seven examples that prove that believers can lose their salvation (On the seven churches in Revelation, though, I inadvertently left our the church in Ephesus.). I challenge you, or anyone else reading this, to explain these verses in light of the doctrine of eternal security. If you can, then I will write an apology to you and any others on this site to whom I have been a false teacher.

         I absolutely agree with you that salvation is “a gift never to be earned and once received this position is not maintained by performance and conduct but by Grace.” For you to make this comment illustrates that you do not understand what I have written at all. In addition, I don’t walk in fear as you say because I know that I am saved by grace and that God is faithful. However, I also realize that I have been given the free will to leave God’s grace, either by rejecting Christ or by a life marked by apathy.

         Because you are so adamant that I am wrong about believers being able to lose their salvation, you should have no trouble correcting all my false explanations. I await your response.

         Barbara

         • Frank Zimmerman says

           June 17, 2012 at 5:01 am

           Barbara its not my desire to win an argument or really bring you over to my way of think ing but rather to simply present the truth. I am not interested in getting an apology from you by proving you are wrong, that’s not me and I do not cross over to arguing about verses.. You are absolutely correct about salvation being the most important doctrine in this temporal world and we should be spot on concerning it. However follow me here, as with any major teaching of scripture there is an element of transcendence in it, something we just can not get our minds around fully. For instance, who wrote the Bible? Well God did through inspiration. Paul wrote his words and yet at the time he wrote they were God breathed, how does that work? They are the words of Paul and the words of God. Jesus was 100% man and at the same time 100% God. Well how does that work?? Hypostatic union?? When God comes down to our level there is always an element of transcendence involved. We just are not as smart as we think. We must come humbly to the word of God and receive what we can then accept the hard to understand things by faith. Reconciling mans responsibility in conversion and the sovereign work of God is really no less a conundrum. I believe in mans responsibility and the striving aspects of salvation but I do so out of love for God and pleasing him as my heavenly Father not adding to my position in Christ which is the foundation that God has placed me on. I had no part in my new birth, it was a supernatural birth performed by God, yet I did say “ok lord” as the Holy Spirit was dealing with my heart and drawing me to the front of the service. Now, when I walked out of the building that night I was completely changed and have never been the same since. I’ve fallen into sin at times but God has always worked and brought me back, always. I testify of the grace and FAITHFULNESS of God and not the faithfulness of man. You see the truth is when God “purchases you” it is an eternal transaction, born in the heart of God in eternity past and becomes an actuality in men’s lives in time when “he calls” and they respond. I can’t explain it but that is the way it works. God is most assuredly sovereign and is most clearly presented so in both Old and New Testaments. Yet, there is the free will issue which juxtaposed with God’s sovereignty creates the tension in our finite mind.
           If you were to listen to me witness you would not even think that I believe in the sovereignty of God because I persuade men. Yet when I come to the word of God there it is! Sovereignty and I simply have no clue.
           When men are saved it is by the work of the Holy Spirit and the word of God.
           When men go to hell (for an eternity I might add) it is because of unbelief and the clear rejection of the Gospel message, and that is pretty much where I stand. God is in control and I find my solace in that, as did King David, the mighty servant of God.

           One last thought concerning security of the believer. My 4 year old Grand daughter as you might expect is the apple of my eye to put it mildly. One of the things she loves to do is stand in front of me and face me and reach up and take both my hands then proceed to walk up me and turn a back flip. She could do it all day I might add but not paw paw, ha ha. When she grabs my hands she wants to hold on to me thinking that she will be secure when she flips. Little does she know I am fully aware of her limit of strength to hold on to me and fully knowing the danger that could happen to her I simply let her think she is holding me yet I take my hands and squeeze her wrists tight so she does not slip out of my hands. She is secure not because she is holding me (although she may think so), she is secure because some one wiser and stronger is making her secure. That’s exactly the way God is with us. His love is greater than my love for my grand daughter. We study we pray we witness we fight with sin daily, we are trying to hold on to God. Yet it is the kind and gracious and loving God who is holding us and is very capable to bring us through to the other side. God is good, may He have mercy on my soul and draw me closer to his bleeding side. I will never in a million zillion years ever understand why he saved me, never.
           I have to run and get in the shower have a great day. FZ

         • Barbara LeFevre says

           June 18, 2012 at 6:00 am

           Frank~

           I hope you had a happy Father’s Day! I’m guessing that you got to spend some time with your little granddaughter, which I know is always a joy. Do you have other grandkids? I have seven, six of whom are from my son and his wife (five girls and one boy), and one little guy from my daughter and her husband. If kids are an inheritance from the Lord, how much more blessed are we to receive grandkids?

           As to your recent post, when you say that your desire is to “simply present the truth,” then I don’t understand why you won’t you just do so, won’t just tell me the truth about why my interpretations are wrong considering that you believe, I assume, that we are to reconcile “All scripture” (II Tim. 3:16) when formulating doctrine? The truth is that you are, or at least you should be, very much trying to “win an argument” and to “bring [me] over to [your] way of thinking” because, if I am wrong, then I am not only believing a false doctrine, I am teaching others the deception, exactly what Jesus warned against in Matthew 16:12. This warning was not given solely for information. It was given so that believers would take action to rid the body of something that had the potential to destroy the truth and faith through which believers would grow in Christ so that they would ultimately inherit the kingdom of God. II Timothy 4:2-4 very clearly instructs believers to “Preach the word; be instant in season, out of season; reprove, rebuke, exhort with all longsuffering and doctrine. For the time will come when they will not endure sound doctrine; but after their own lusts shall they heap to themselves teachers, having itching ears; And they shall turn away [their] ears from the truth, and shall be turned unto fables.” In other words, each one of us is commanded to teach the pure Word of God to those in the body of Christ, by all methods and during all times, to ensure that the body is not only firmly grounded in its eternal truths but that it is able to contradict any false doctrine that will creep in (II Pet. 2:1, Jude 1:3) because, at some point, believers themselves will not even be able to tolerate “sound doctrine,” which is just scary, wouldn’t you say? This isn’t my opinion. This is the truth of God’s Word, so based upon God’s Word, I would say that you have at least some obligation to show me my error, not only for my sake but for the sake of the body.

           Now, yes, I would say that there is a point in which believers have said all they can, when they have met all the objections that someone has offered and, at that point, one has fulfilled his or her obligation. However, until that is done, then each of us has work to do. What this means as far as our dialogue goes is that you should desire and be able to set me straight, and, no, it shouldn’t be done by fighting or anything, but through addressing the verses that each one of us brings to the table for examination. That really isn’t asking anything that is out of line, is it? That’s all I have ever asked, and I am quite perplexed as to why, if you really have the truth that the Word is teaching in this area, that you respond with all kinds of other explanations and ignore the specific verses that I give because, according to you, I don’t have a good grasp on the most important topic of the entire Bible, mankind’s salvation. I’ve always been able to provide an answer and related verses to each one of the points that you offer in support of your perspective, and I am merely asking that you do the same. As a matter of fact, there is something that I would like to say about your comments on a fairly recent post. On May 24 (May 23 blog), you wrote, “Yep, no doubt about it. It is a present possesion for all who were born of God. Whether we fail to grow as we ought(carnal christians) or whether we grow and mature as we should. We are all one ‘in Christ’ This is the witness of scripture. Now that is security and we are free to love God as we should and serve him not out of fear but in great love for him.” It’s the phrase “carnal Christians” and the fact that you believe that they will inherit the kingdom of God that is of great concern to me because it is absolutely not, as you claim, “the witness of scripture.” On the contrary, Scripture tells us something quite different in Romans 8:1-21 and especially verses 6-7, and it does so in very clear and understandable language that our finite minds can very well understand.

           I agree with you that we do not know all of God’s ways because Scripture tells us exactly that (Is. 55:9). However, He has very much told us about how salvation is obtained, and He has made it clear because the other two alternative scenarios, that He either didn’t tell us everything or that He told us but our minds our too finite to understand, are, quite frankly, too far fetched to even be in the realm of reason. How on Earth would God ever be able to stand as righteous judge over His creation if He didn’t fully and clearly tell His creation how to be reconciled to Him? The analogy that you gave about your granddaughter is wonderful because it shows that you are a faithful “paw paw,” and we need to always remember the strength and faithfulness of our Lord and Savior. I totally agree! However, what you left out of your analogy is that your granddaughter, after you had first reached out to her, had to respond and continue to respond in faith in order for her “walks” and “back flips” to even happen. In other words, it takes both of you to make it work.

           I will be honest with you here. You are my brother in Christ, and I love you, but I believe the reason that you haven’t addressed the numerous verses and explanations that I have given is because you are unable to. I know from being in Mormonism that when someone (myself at the time) epeatedly refuses to address a specific topic or repeatedly says that they don’t want to argue about Scripture, it is because they really don’t have the answer. As I wrote in a post to Tim, people are able to explain that which they understand. I am, in no way, trying to insult you. I am trying to get you to realize that if you really have the truth as you say, then you should be able to take each one of the verses that I have given and absolutely refute them. As I wrote, I believe to you and Tim, I’d be happy to admit that I am wrong if either of you could even explain to me why my understanding of Revelation 3:5 is wrong, why I am erroneously reading that believers can have their names blotted out of the book of life. We’ve been going back and forth with this same issue for months, and I would personally like to move on to something new, something beyond the foundational tenets of our belief. Would you please take a few days and ask the Lord to either open your eyes to the truth or to open mine?

           God bless you!

           Barbara

5. Frank Zimmerman says

   June 14, 2012 at 6:37 am

   Hmmmmm? Charles Hadden Spurgeon arguably the greatest preacher in the last several 100 years was very “Calvanistic” have all the “free will proponents” labeled the doctrines of grace heresy? I have definitely in my older age came to the conclusion that God is more sovereign than we would care to admit. God absolutely intervened in my life and orchestrated events placing me at church camp, then the Holy Spirit of God Almighty moved on my soul and as I resisted in my pride to not go forward because of what other people would think God would not go away but stayed and pressed harder on my spirit as I sayed “ok Lord” in my heart then I went forward and was seated in a chair where the Holy Spirit fell on me and created in me a “new man”. This was a divine appointment.God knows it and I know it. We have today I believe unfortunately many people who were persuaded by a man into a decision that has become their “profession of Faith” so to speak and they do not possess the Spirit of God. The new birth is if you please quite a supernatural thing that happens WHEN God decides and is not according to the will of Man. These are great truths that I totally believe in my older years that I had really not considered in my earlier life. I witness as much as any one does because I don’t ever bring the doctrine of election into the command to witness to everyone, that is unscriptural. But as no one controls the wind so no man on this earth controls the Holy Ghost of God almighty, he works his will how and when it pleases him. I know that God for some reason has let me see this in recent months where as all my life I had simply just read over it. FZ

   • Frank Zimmerman says

     June 18, 2012 at 1:55 pm

     Yes ma’am Barbara I have 3 more stinkers and they wear me out to say the least, but as I’m sure you know I love them lots! I see them quite a bit actually because mommy lets just say is not listening to the Lord right now, and I will leave it at that. I did also have a busy father’s day, but that’s a good thing. Now to get to some scripture let me first ask you a question that will not be hard for you to respond to. Do you believe that in the book of Romans we have the best detailed account of the doctrine of salvation in the entire New Test.? I believe that it clearly is. I also believe unless you get a grasp upon justification and the imputation of Christ’s righteousness to the believer (which is separate from my works etc.) security in Christ is hard to see. You are reading Romans 8 wrong and I believe I know how you are doing it. You are saying that there is no condemnation AS LONG as you are walking after the Spirit. Hence drawing the conclusion in verse 13 “for if ye live after the flesh ye shall die, but if you through the Spirit do mortify the deeds of the body ye shall live”. That is wrong. The statement in verse 1 is a summation if you please of all he has been saying about justification and sanctification primarily in chapters 4-7. The statement in verse 1 is what I would like to call a statement of finality and POSITION not PRACTICE as in verse 13. without extracting the phrase “who walk not after the flesh but after the Spirit” which the majority of the most recent manuscripts omit hence the omission in most modern versions.(Textus Receptus vs GNT disagreements). I will tell you what I think it is saying. Paul is not saying what I had previously stated but rather that by virtue of our position “in Christ” there will never pass a sentence of condemnation upon us ever again because we are in Christ, the payment for the sin has been secured and the righteousness of Christ has been reckoned to our account. The payment was “once for all” accepted by God never to be revoked, (“the gifts and callings of God are without repentance”) that means it is settle in his mind, a done deal so to speak. The phrase “who walk not after the flesh but after the Spirit” verses 1 (KJV) and verse 4 are meant to draw a distinction between saved people (who are in possession of the Spirit (Important to see verse 9 here) and unregenerate people who walk according to the flesh. The comparison is not between fleshly Christians and Spirit led Christians but between those who have the Spirit and those who do not, Paul makes sure he clarifies this in verse 9 “But YE are not in the flesh but in the Spirit if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you” Now he does not say because they are controlled (filled) with the Spirit they belong to God but rather that they are indwelt by the Spirit that they belong to God. This is important to see. They are spiritual because they have been born of the Spirit, which is the only difference between belonging to God and belonging to Satan. So in verse 13 he is addressing saved people, and we are getting into the area of how we live the Christian life here “If ye live after the flesh ye shall die” that’s one option, the other “but if ye through the Spirit do mortify the deeds of the body ye shall live” This is the sin unto death that incidentally King David almost committed (2 Sam. 12:13) It does NOT say IF YE LIVE AFTER THE FLESH YOU WILL PASS BACK UNDER CONDEMNATION AND LOOSE YOUR POSTION “in Christ”. It says you will die. The New Test. is filled with people that God took home early. That is EXACTLY what Paul is saying here. They will forfeit their physical existence here on earth and go to heaven early. 1 Cor. 11:30 is a nice proof text for this. No where in this chapter does he back off verse 1 with pronouncing his “no condemnation” status so to speak, but he rather builds upon it. I would much rather teach this than try to put it in words because there is so much to say about it. The other gentleman that used this chapter to teach that you could loose your salvation (and I forget his name) but are way off line with the content of what Paul is saying here. See if you agree and let me know. Pay close attention to verse 1, verse 9 and verse 13. Find what it is saying exactly and what it is not saying. God bless. The bible is so good. FZ

     • Barbara LeFevre says

       June 19, 2012 at 7:00 am

       Frank~

       Yes, I believe that Romans is what you say, and I pretty much knew that you would respond in the way that you did, at least to some degree. I selected this passage because, while I believe that it is very much contrasting saved people to unregenerate people as you say and that this passage is giving a detailed explanation of how we, as believers, are to understand exactly what took place upon our surrender to Christ, it is saying a great deal more that can be applied to your comments. Verses 6 and 7 say, “For to be carnally minded [is] death; but to be spiritually minded [is] life and peace. Because the carnal mind [is] enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be.” Now, as you know, the exact word you used in that previous post was “carnal,” and you implied in that post and defended in this post your opinion that believers who are carnal will still inherit the kingdom of God because they are positionally “in Christ” and, if they are “in Christ,” there is now “no condemnation” as verse 1 does say. For your interpretation to be valid, then, you are saying that it is just fine to be carnally minded as long as you have been saved. That, alone, doesn’t make sense because what you are saying that it is okay with God to have a mind that is at enmity with Him, meaning hateful, hostile, and antagonistic toward Him, and still be saved. How can this even make sense to you?

       In addition, how can you reconcile your conclusion with II Peter 3:14 which says, “Wherefore, beloved, seeing that ye look for such things, be diligent that ye may be found of him in peace, without spot, and blameless”? How can you reconcile your perspective with Ephesians 5:27 which says, “That he might present it to himself a glorious church, not having spot, or wrinkle, or any such thing; but that it should be holy and without blemish”? How can you reconcile your view with I Corinthians 15:27-28 which say, “For he hath put all things under his feet. But when he saith all things are put under [him, it is] manifest that he is excepted, which did put all things under him. And when all things shall be subdued unto him, then shall the Son also himself be subject unto him that put all things under him, that God may be all in all”? These verses clearly contradict your idea that a carnal person, regardless of his or her positioning in Christ, will be in heaven. Read carefully the list of adjectives in the first two verses I cited. How can it be that a holy, pure, and righteous God is going to allow a guilty, corrupt, defiled person who views Him with contempt to enter into heaven to spend eternity with him merely because he or she made an initial commitment to Him at one time? Frank, please, how can you believe that? It is only those people who have brought themselves into subjection to Christ whom Christ will later bring under the Father who will be in heaven, those people who have allowed the sanctifying work of the Holy Spirit to change them, not someone who has been walking according to the flesh, saved or not.

       You are right on one thing, though. It is, as verse 1 says, only those who are “in Christ” who will not receive condemnation, and people who have lived their post-conversion lives as the old ‘carnal’ man and those people who have lived lives of apathy have, by their actions, revealed that they did not remain “in Christ” because they, at some point, walked after the flesh and not the Spirit.* This is exactly the point of the analogy in the gospel of John: “I am the true vine, and my Father is the husbandman. Every branch in me that beareth not fruit he taketh away: and every [branch] that beareth fruit, he purgeth it, that it may bring forth more fruit. Now ye are clean through the word which I have spoken unto you. Abide in me, and I in you. As the branch cannot bear fruit of itself, except it abide in the vine; no more can ye, except ye abide in me. I am the vine, ye [are] the branches: He that abideth in me, and I in him, the same bringeth forth much fruit: for without me ye can do nothing. If a man abide not in me, he is cast forth as a branch, and is withered; and men gather them, and cast [them] into the fire, and they are burned” (15:1-6). In this passage, Jesus is using the analogy of a vineyard to describe the relationship between believers and Himself. We understand from several references, especially verse 5, that Jesus is “the vine” and believers are “the branches.” In verses 4-5, Jesus says that believers cannot bear fruit unless they abide in Him, but this passage is clear that not all branches do continue to abide in Him and that there are consequences for that. In verse 2, He speaks of two types of branches that are “IN ME [JESUS]” (caps mine), believers who bear fruit and believers who don’t. Those branches that do bear fruit are pruned by God in order to bear more fruit. Those branches that do not bear fruit are “taken away,” which verse six explains as being “…cast forth as a branch, and is withered; and men gather them, and cast [them] into the fire, and they are burned.” This is very much loss of salvation, a truth that further underscored by the fact that the word “abide,” is used nine times in chapter 15, four times alone in verses four and six as a warning to believers so that they will not be “taken away” and “burned.” Further proof of this can be found in what you referred to as the “best detailed account of the doctrine of salvation in the entire New Test.,” the book of Romans. Read chapter 11, especially verses 21-22. There is only one way that these verses can be understood if one reads what is plainly written, and I think it is scriptural to conclude that, at the very least, it is these people whom Christ is addressing in His letter to the Laodiceans in Revelation 3:14-22, the ones He “will spue thee out of [His] mouth” (v. 16). What else could this possibly mean other than loss of salvation?

       *Think of it this way. Although our lives are no longer governed by a spirit of lawlessness, we still sin or ‘walk after the flesh,’ but we repent and turn our lives back over to the Spirit. Some people, however, don’t do this as they should. They may at first, but over time, they progressively quench the conviction of the Holy Spirit, eventually becoming deadened to His leading. This is precisely why we are given the warning in Hebrews 3:7-19, another passage that leaves no doubt that believers can lose their salvation.

       With all due respect, Frank, you have played very fast and loose with the book of Romans because your conclusions contradict not only this book but the rest of Scripture. As I’ve written many times, if you can reconcile your beliefs to the verses I’ve provided, here and in other posts, then I will listen. In addition, the “nice proof text” you’ve given (I Cor. 11:30) absolutely does not support your claim that “God took [them] home early” and that “they [forfeited] their physical existence here on earth and go to heaven early.” It is obvious that you didn’t even read the context. In the preceding verse, verse 29, it very clearly says, “For he that eateth and drinketh unworthily, eateth and drinketh damnation to himself, not discerning the Lord’s body.” These people weren’t taken to heaven early; they were DAMNED!

       Frank, it is my prayer for you that you study God’s Word, all of God’s Word, just as He has given it because only then will your conclusions be correct.

       Your sister~
       Barbara

       • Frank Zimmerman says

         June 19, 2012 at 8:53 am

         Hello Barbara, you “surrendering to Christ” was your will, right? Well you have a problem, and the problem is this the “new birth” was not your will or you making a decision or committment, to the contrary it is a sovereign operation of God the Holy Spirit. John 1:13, in this verse he offers 3 things that had nothing to do with the new birth. 1.”not of blood” 2. “nor of the will of the flesh”. 3. “nor of the will of man”
         You can look at each one specifically and realize that in these three negations he is saying that it had nothing to do with you but rather everything to do with God, hence “but of God”. I prayed many prayers as I told you asking best I could for Jesus to come into my heart and I walked up front and as best I could I prayed the sinners pray at the revival service I attended and walked away unsaved, these were things I was doing. Now, a birth happens when it is time for it to happen. This is when God the Holy Spirit “pricked” if you please my dead spirit and finally I new I was lost and was not saved. The rest of my conversion I’m sure you remember. No question about it, I met God that night in church camp and was born again of God’s Holy Ghost, God knows it and I know it. Can you read John 3 and with 100% assurance know that you have experienced what Jesus is talking about. When I read it I go YES, thats what happened to me. I don’t think we really agree on what the new birth is. That is where we have the issue I think. Thanks for all your polite comments and obviously hard diligent studying.

         • Barbara LeFevre says

           June 19, 2012 at 1:38 pm

           Frank~

           Yes! Exactly! My “surrendering to Christ” was absolutely “[my] will! That is exactly the witness of Scripture and what is meant by the biblical imperatives that say that whoever “believes,” “receives,” “repents,” “confesses,” and “calls” will be saved! I didn’t make these words up, Frank. They are actually in the Bible, and I have cited them repeatedly, so why do you refuse to acknowledge that the Word of God uses them in conjunction with salvation? Why do you take away from God’s revealed Word? How can you use a word like “surrender” and not attribute it to something that a person does? Are you suggesting that God forces us to surrender? To surrender to Christ means to willingly bring ourselves under His lordship. That’s the integrity of His plan of salvation. The alternative is that His plan is so lacking, so undesirable, and so bereft of redeeming value that it cannot stand upon its own, that there is nothing that would make us even want to use the free will that God Himself gave us for the express purpose of being able to either accept (or reject) Him.

           If I am the one who has a problem, then why am I the one who can reconcile Scripture? Why am I the one who can address the issues that you brought up with regard to Romans 1, and you are the one who isn’t able to contradict even one of them? Why are you the one who cannot explain why my interpretations of the seven examples of that previous post are erroneous? Why are you the one who cannot understand what I have written over and over, that it is God, ALONE and FIRST, who DRAWS US to Him, and it is Christ, ALONE and FIRST, who KNOCKS on the door of our hearts. THEN, if we accept His offer, THEN, He, A-L-O-N-E, SAVES US! If I made this sequence up, then you would have the right to tell me that I have a problem, but I didn’t. I gave the exact Scripture references to support each step, something that you not only have not been able to refute but something you have repeatedly refused to even acknowledge as part of the dialogue.

           It’s not that I have a problem with John 1 as you say; it’s that you are using these three negations in the wrong part of the process. They don’t have to do with step 1 (God drawing a person//Christ knocking on person’s heart) or step 2 (a person, using his free will, hears and opens the door) but step 3 (God, ALONE, SOLELY, EXCLUSIVELY saves the person who accepts the invitation). It IS true, as John 1:13 says. The new birth has nothing to do with “blood” (human birth), the “will of the flesh” (human effort), or the “will of man” (human volition), but the new birth is not steps 1 or 2 but step 3. You have argued this point with me ad nauseam for months, and you have never even addressed the three steps except to tell me that I was wrong and that I had nothing whatsoever to do with my salvation, even to the point of being sarcastic in your opening line today, and yet, you have admitted that I have been right all along when you wrote that “the Holy Spirit ‘pricked’ if you please my dead spirit and finally I new [sic] I was lost and was not saved” (todays’ post), which is step 1. You also admitted that I have been right all along when you wrote, “…I did say ‘ok lord’ as the Holy Spirit was dealing with my heart and drawing me to the front of the service” (June 17), which is step 2. If your saying “ok lord” is not using your free will (step 2) to accept the Holy Spirit when He “pricked” your “dead spirit” (step 1) as two very real and definable occurrences preceding your new birth (step 3), then what is it, Frank?

           You have spent these past months questioning my ability to interpret Scripture correctly although I am the one who has given a scripturally based explanation for every concern that you have brought up while I am still waiting for yours. Now, today, you even imply that perhaps I am not born again. We are not to get “snarky” on this blog, so I am going to leave it at that. I have nothing more to say to you. I know you will read this post, and it is my prayer that you will seek and find the truth of God’s Word, but don’t bother responding. Rather, spend your time addressing all of the verses and explanations that you have ignored these past months because, without them, you have nothing but false doctrine (II Tim. 3:16).

           Your sister~

           Barbara

         • Frank Zimmerman says

           June 20, 2012 at 4:51 am

           Now Ms Barbara, there has been not one bit of sarcasim when I write to you. If we were speaking face to face you would see. The point I’m trying to get you to see is that it is God who keeps us saved.In Ephesians 1:13 Paul gives us the order if you please of the conversion experience.”in whom ye also trusted after that you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation, in whom also after that you beleived ye were sealed with that Holy Spirit of promise” then verse 14, now this next statement is because WE HAVE BEEN SEALED by the Spirit. verse 14 “which” (refering to the Holy Spirit’s sealing ministry) is the earnest of our inheritance until the redemption of the purchased possession”
           The sealing ministry of the Spirit of God absolutely guarantees the security of all of the redeemed, I repeat, guarantees it.
           I am God’s purchased possession.
           Now, back to where we believed in verse 13 “after that ye believed” it is God who enables us to believe (the our part you speak of).
           You see if God did not come to man and move upon him in some way NO ONE WOULD EVER BE SAVED,EVER.
           Apart from God opening your eyes you could not tell the difference between any religion. You quite frankly, would not know what to believe.
           I talk to people all the time in their “natural state” and they say “oh I beleive there may have exhisted a man names Jesus but he was just a man” etc. etc. That is the best a man can do apart from the Spirit of God. Now on the other hand when the Spirit gets involved “Eye hath not seen ear hath not heard neither have entered into the heart of man the things which God hath prepared for them that love him. But God hath REVEALED THEM UNTO US BY HIS SPIRIT” THERE ITS IS. You see, “no man can say Jesus is the lord but by the Holy Spirit” There it is again, 1 Cor 12:3 look it up. You think that you somehow through your reason or thinking just came to the conclusion that JESUS is the son of God or God the Son. It is divine revelation if you believe that, now its possible that you are not to the point that you can see that. I really wasn’t either alot of my Christian life but I definetly understand it now.
           Let me say this as clearly as I can and don’t flip out until you think about it long and hard. You absolutely would not be able to trust Christ, believe in Christ, or even no who Jesus was without divine revelation which is the work of the Holy Spirit. If you see Jesus as who he says he is then its because God has shown him to you. So for you to say It was me who belived, it was me who trusted, thats true in one sense so to speak but it is enabled faith, enabled trust all brought about by the Holy Spirit.
           Go out today and pick a random person, buy them lunch and try to convince them they are hell bound etc. Won’t happen unless what? The Holy Spirit does the convincing.
           You have been convinced, if you are saved, by the Holy Spirit to beleive that Jesus is the Christ, that is the witness of scripture.
           John 16:8-9 Now listening very carefully to what Jesus says “and when he is come(Holy Spirit) he will reprove the world of Sin” now stop there a second and go to verse 9, “Of sin BECAUSE THEY BELIEVE NOT ON ME” there it is. Unless the Spirit comes and CONVINCES US “KJV uses the word “REPROVE” there is no hope or no beleif.
           Now it is clear that it is God who shows us who to beleive in and it is God who enables us to beleive. The command to believe on the Lord Jesus Christ is most definitely in the scripture but it is God who enables the sinner to believe, so you see God gets all the credit for salvation.
           I know it may be hard to accept, but if you beleive right now it is God enabling you to do so.
           1 John 5:1 actually makes “faith” a by product if you please of the new birth, check the verb tenses or if you don’t believe me ask BLB.
           Saving faith is divine enabled thats why it can never be lost. If it were us only we might change our mind so to speak and anyone who can change their mind about who Jesus is does not have divine enabled Faith. There just going through life beleiving whatever.
           Barbara I am not persuading you to beleive a lie I am persuading you to beleive the truth. I am a saved man, sinful yes but most definetly saved.
           Here is the main reason I stay on this subjest is because there maybe weak chrisitans dealing with this very issue and your teaching breeds in them fear, when do I lose it? oh my, how will I know when I lose it? is there some way I can tell? If i lose it can I get it back????fear upon fear to possibly a genuinely born again Child of God?. No you cant’ live anyway you want if your saved and the Bible does not teach that.To me that is where I do not want to be. lose it?

           Now when you witness to someone do you tell them oh my, if you dont stay straight you will go to hell even if you have been born of God and washed in the blood of the Lord Jesus Chrsit so you better work hard to keep it?
           I tell the “him that cometh to me I will in no wise cast out”
           And that verse does not carry the idea of Jesus turning those who come to him away but rather once in he will never discard you” Now that is the word of God. You need to rethink things.
           Have a good day FZ

         • steve morrow says

           June 25, 2012 at 11:44 am

           Frank Z
           Would you mind showing us who you are being faithful to or who you have faith in when you say faith alone

           The LORDS words say:
           James 2:24
           You see then how that by works a man is justified and not by faith only

           Acts 10:34&35
           Then Peter opened his and said Of a truth I perceive that GOD is no respecter of persons
           (35)But in —EVERY NATION—he that feareth —HIM—AND WORKETH RIGHTEOUSNESS—IS ACCEPTED WITH HIM

           John 5:43
           I am come in MY FATHERS NAME and you receive ME not
           IF ANOTHER COME IN HIS OWN NAME HIM YOU WILL RECEIVE

           John 5:44
           HOW CAN YOU BELIEVE which receive honor one of another and seek not the honor that cometh from —-GOD—-

           LOVING THE LORD JESUS

       • Frank Zimmerman says

         June 19, 2012 at 11:51 am

         Oh sorry something I forgot to add. I have not got into yet what happens after someone becomes a child of God and that is the area that you are getting into. God at work in us conforming us to Christlikeness and the bumps in the road so to speak on our way to Christlikeness. Our performance and conduct as a child of God do not negate our sonship. Also You are wrong about te sin unto death as well and also the scripture in 1 Cor. The prncipal is this: judgement for the child of God is on this side (God holds us to a different standard because we know him. The ungodly’s judgement is on the other side (damnation)not that though don’t reap what they sow now. rememeber the verse in Rev. “as I many as I love I rebuke” those are saved people that God so to speak takes to the woodshed. I say this kindly and with sincerety but you are confusing alot of things.Once a child of God always a child of God. Can you live anyway you want,nope, but since the fleash is a constant the possibility always exhists that one can fall into sin. Romans 14 the first part deals with the weaker brethren principle but verse 4 says “who are thou that judgest another mans servant, to his own master he standeth or falleth YEA, HE SHALL BE HOLDEN UP FOR GOD IS ABLE TO MAKE HIM STAND” This is God’s keeping power and I see it absent from your theology.FZ

         • Barbara LeFevre says

           June 19, 2012 at 1:44 pm

           I just read your last post, and I also have one thing to add. If it’s true that “Once a child of God always a child of God,” then how do believers have their names blotted out of the book of life (Rev. 3:5)?

         • Frank Zimmerman says

           June 20, 2012 at 7:05 am

           Barbara in response to Rev. 3:5(and hopefully I’ll spell better this time, sorry for that on my last discussion)
           Now let’s do exegesis (drawing out) and not eisegesis (reading into it).
           Verse 5 “He that overcometh (because they are born of God 1 John 5:4-5)” the same shall be clothed in white raiment” those who have been born of God. Then Jesus says that “I will NOT” (for emphasis) blot out his name from the book of life. That is one of those double negatives that he has been teaching us. Which is the exact opposite of what you are saying it says? Jesus is affirming security ( not saying the possibility exists) that no one who has been born again will ever be blotted out of the book of life. It’s the strongest argument FOR eternal security not against. This is totally in agreement with what Jesus says in John 6:37 “all that the Father giveth me shall come to me and him that cometh to me I will in no wise cast out” there it is again the same security. Jesus loses nobody, and I do mean nobody.
           You can come at the truth from all sides and it will stand, there are no holes in it so to speak. The truth is those whom God has redeemed will make it through and that is why we have Romans 8:29-30. The ones he called, he justified. The same ones he justified he glorified. Were not glorified now in time so to speak (we do not have our new bodies) but in the mind of God it is already done because “he calleth those things which be not as though they were” Romans 4 last part of verse 17. You see God called David a king when he was a boy but he did not make him King until years later. In that same way he is able to tell Paul to write these verses in Romans 8:29-30. All the redeemed are in this process and the final outcome is all will be glorified! FZ

         • Barbara LeFevre says

           June 20, 2012 at 8:00 pm

           ~No matter how many times I’ve explained the three steps in the process of salvation, you deny that I say or believe them.

           ~This is the first time that you have attempted to address Revelation 3:5, but you have taken it out of context to support your viewpoint. Here’s the context of one’s name being blotted out of the book of life:

           “And unto the angel of the church in Sardis write; These things saith he that hath the seven Spirits of God, and the seven stars; I know thy works, that thou hast a name that thou livest, AND ART DEAD. Be watchful, and strengthen the things which remain, that are ready to die: for I HAVE NOT FOUND THY WORKS PERFECT BEFORE GOD. Remember therefore how thou hast received and heard, and hold fast, AND REPENT. IF THEREFORE THOU SHALT NOT WATCH, I WILL COME ON THEE AS A THIEF, and thou shalt not know what hour I will come upon thee. Thou have a few names even in Sardis which have not defiled their garments; and they shall walk with me in white: for they are worthy. He that overcometh, the same shall be clothed in white raiment; and I will not blot out his name out of the book of life, but I will confess his name before my Father, and before his angels” (Rev. 3:1-5, caps mine).

           ~You are right. Jesus won’t lose anyone, but there have been, are, and will be people who walk away or drift away from Him because believers don’t lose their free will when they gain salvation.

           I can see no reason to continue this dialogue.

         • Frank Zimmerman says

           June 21, 2012 at 3:51 pm

           Hi Ms Barbara, Let me give you one little illustration that may help you. I have 4 children, they are forever mine as they carry my DNA. Once they had that birth and came out of the womb they are forever mine. Now, do they all listen to me? are they always good walking in obedience? well i’m sure you know the answer to that. When they go against what I say a division comes between us and the communication line is severed. Now, are they still my children? oh yes born to me, a birth that can never be undone or lost so to speak.What happens to me as a father and what happens to them as children? we are grieved things are not right and in our heart we know they are not right. Our FELLOWSHIP is broken but not our relationship. When I was born again God gave me a birth and placed spiritual DNA in me. It’s been in me ever since I was saved, it was a permanent work and event like a physical birth. Do I disobey? yes, but I confess it to God and fellowship is restored. I wish you all the best and I have never doubted your salvation as you said I am trying to help you see the truth of scripture concerning eternal security. Yes its a true teaching of scripture but not a license to sin. Hope to hear from you soon. FZ

         • Barbara LeFevre says

           June 21, 2012 at 6:16 pm

           Your comparison is a false analogy because we have absolutely nothing to do with our physical births, so nothing can change that relationship. However, we do have something to do with our spiritual births. We use our free will to either accept (or reject) God’s call upon our lives (my step 2) after He has drawn us (my step 1). Scripture says that we “believe,” “receive,” “confess,” “repent,” and “call upon the name of the Lord.” Your acceptance of God’s call upon your life was, “Ok, Lord.” Our spiritual births only come about because we willingly enter into a covenant relationship with God, and the same free will we use to enter the covenant, we can use to leave it.

         • steve morrow says

           June 21, 2012 at 9:49 pm

           1 Corinthians 15:34
           Awake to righteousness and sin not
           FOR SOME HAVE NOT THE KNOWLEDGE OF GOD
           I SPEAK THIS TO YOUR SHAME

           2 Corinthians 10:3
           For though we walk in the flesh
           we do not war after the flesh

           2 Corinthians 10:4
           For the weapons of our warfare are not carnal but mighty through GOD to the pulling down of strongholds

           2 Corinthians 10:5
           Casting down the imaginations and —EVERY
           HIGH THING THAT EXALTETH ITSELF AGAINST THE KNOWLEDGE OF GOD—and bringing into captivity every thought —TO THE OBEDIENCE OF CHRIST—

           2 Corinthians 10:18
           For not he that commendeth himself is approved but whom —THE LORD COMMENDETH—

           Philippians 2:12
           Wherefore my beloved as you have —ALWAYS
           OBEYED—not as in my presence only but now
           much more in my absence work out your own —SALVATION— with fear and trembling

           Mark 8:35
           For whosoever will save his life shall lose it but whosoever shall lose his life for MY sake —AND THE GOSPELS—the same shall save it

           1 Peter 4:17
           For the time is come that judgement must begin at the house of GOD and if it first begin —AT US—WHAT SHALL THE END BE OF THEM THAT —OBEY NOT—THE GOSPEL OF GOD

           HELP US LORD TO SHOW WE LOVE YOU AND THE FATHER BY OBEYING HIS COMMANDS (DOING THEM) AS IT IS THAT YOU SAYETH —IN YOUR NAME WE ASK —AMEN

           Hebrews 5:9
           And being made perfect he became the author
           of —ETERNAL SALVATION UNTO ALL THEM THAT OBEY HIM—

           Psalm 119:155
           SALVATION IS FAR FROM THE WICKED
           FOR THEY SEEK NOT THY STATUTES

           LOVING THE LORD

         • Frank Zimmerman says

           June 22, 2012 at 4:10 am

           Barbara look at these verses:

           James 1:18 “of his own will begat he us with the word of truth”

           John 1:13 “Which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, BUT OF GOD”

           John 3:8 “the wind bloweth where it listeth and thou hearest the sound thereof but canst not tell whence it cometh, and whither it goeth” so is EVERYONE that is born of the Spirit”

           In verse 8 Jesus says the new birth is like the wind:

           1. Its sovereign, it blows where it wants to blow. No ones will controls it.
           2. Its unseen but it produces effects. (You hear its sound but you don’t know where it came from or where it goes). Sovereignty again.

           The new birth is God doing something, not me. After I said “ok Lord” I got up and walked down the aisle and was sat down by the pastor on the front row and that’s where the new birth took place. The Holy Spirit fell upon me and I was immersed in God’s Spirit and cried like a baby as this was happening. When the Spirit came off me I was clean and brand new. I had been born of God. My will was not even at work when the Holy Spirit was on me, God was at work and I was passive as his power was on me.
           That night was a divine appointment and I know it. A lot of things led up to that like people involved getting me to camp etc. but looking back (that’s really when we see God working) God was orchestrating it all. That’s my testimony of how I met the Lord Jesus Christ when I was a boy.

         • Barbara LeFevre says

           June 22, 2012 at 2:15 pm

           Frank~

           I am writing a response, but I won’t be able to get it posted until tomorrow.

           Barbara

         • Barbara LeFevre says

           June 23, 2012 at 1:21 pm

           Frank~

           With all the other things I have to do today, I probably won’t get my answer completed and posted until Sunday sometime, probably later in the evening. Sorry about the delay.

           Barbara

         • Barbara LeFevre says

           June 24, 2012 at 5:26 pm

           Frank~

           You have given your “testimony of how [you] met the Lord Jesus Christ” many times. It is truly a wonderful testimony, but you need to realize that it is your testimony and that not everyone, including myself, had such a dramatic conversion although we are also saved and definitely know it every bit as much as you do. I might be wrong, but the only reason that I can think of to explain why you have shared your conversion testimony with me so many times is to imply that, because your conversion was so powerful that it leaves no question that you are, indeed, saved, then this must be proof positive that your interpretation of the ‘eternal security’ doctrine must be the correct one. It’s not that we both aren’t saved; it’s that one of us isn’t rightly dividing God’s Word, and with all due respect, I would say that it’s the one who cannot harmonize all relevant verses.

           I don’t know what point you are trying to put across by giving me the verses in James and John and especially John 1:13 because I already showed that your interpretation doesn’t agree with your view of salvation. Just because these verses are true doesn’t negate our responsibility with either our initial salvation or our final salvation. We are, as you know, in a covenant relationship with God. A covenant is a formal agreement between two parties, in this case, God and His people, and this means that each party is responsible to uphold certain stipulations. In God’s Word, He has told us how He will be faithful to us, and He has told us how we are to be faithful to Him, and while He cannot ever be unfaithful to His Word, we most certainly can. I want you to think about something, here. Why, if the sovereignty of God is the sole reason for our initial salvation as well as our final salvation as you believe, then why did God choose a covenant as the means to define the relationship between Himself and His people? Here, of course, I am not referring to the general sense of the word as it pertains to any agreement but to a legal agreement that is under a seal, in this case, the blood of Christ. There is something that God was doing here by initiating a covenant relationship over and above just exercising His sovereignty in the eternal destinies of His creation.

           All the verses that you and others cite such as Matthew 28:20; John 6:37-40, 10:27-29, 17:12, 18:9; Romans 14:4, etc. all have to do with God’s faithfulness, His responsibility to those with whom He entered into the covenant. I wrote this before, but it bears repeating. The main ideas behind these verses are that God loves believers and that He will always hold onto them, guaranteeing final salvation, and both are absolutely true. Nothing will ever separate us from the love of God; He will always be there, through trials, temptations, tragedies, and right on through to our final salvation. However, the purpose of these verses is not to illustrate that believers cannot lose their salvation but to reveal God’s faithfulness to us over and above anything or anyone in Heaven or on Earth or under the Earth that would, through anything at their disposal, appear to be able to snatch us from His arms, His power, or His love (Num. 11:23, Dan. 9:29, Is. 63:1). These verses are our assurance of both His desire and ability to accomplish what He has purposed and that nothing can stop Him. He will never forsake us; however, we can forsake Him. Satan and his minions will try to separate us from the love of God, but they can’t; however, we can separate ourselves from it, as did Judas. God will always lead us; however, we don’t have to follow. This is why we are given the admonition, “Let us hold fast the profession of [our] faith without wavering (for he [is] faithful that promised” (Heb. 10:23). Other people may hurt us and try to discourage us, but we are told, “The LORD [is] on my side; I will not fear: what can man do unto me” (Ps. 118:6). We need only look at the OT to see all of these verses in action. No matter what Israel faced, as long as the people were walking faithfully with the LORD, He kept His hand on them, even in their times of sinning, which we all do. However, when the people rebelled against God, through their own choices, they removed themselves from God’s protective covering, from His provision, and, as the story of the Hebrews wandering and dying in the wilderness proves, even His salvation. It wasn’t that God quit loving them or that evil angels overtook them or that men snatched them from His arms; they had the freedom to choose, and they chose to walk away, to choose unbelief over belief.

           To say that God’s sovereignty somehow guarantees that God’s people will remain in a covenant relationship is just not scriptural as Jeremiah 31:31-32 illustrates: “Behold, the days are coming, says the LORD, when I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah– “not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day [that] I took them by the hand to lead them out of the land of Egypt, My covenant WHICH THEY BROKE, though I was a husband to them, says the LORD” (caps mine). What these and other verses prove is that God is always faithful and won’t break the covenant, but His creation is not; His creation can break it, and when this happens, God has shown that His people have been permanently “cut off” from Him. The second occurrence of this phrase is Genesis 17:14 which says, “And the uncircumcised man child whose flesh of his foreskin is not circumcised, that soul shall be cut off from his people; he hath broken my covenant.” The phrase “cut off” is the Hebrew word “karath” (Strong’s, H3772), and it means “extirpated, destroyed” (Thayer’s). Lest anyone think that God won’t perform the exact act on believers today is not only to ignore this dire warning in the OT but to ignore what Paul said in Romans 12:3b, that we are “not to think [of himself] more highly than he ought to think,” and he gives the reason back in 11:21: “For if God spared not the natural branches, [take heed] lest he also spare not thee.” Frank, “IF GOD SPARED NOT THE NATURAL BRANCHES, [TAKE HEED] LEST HE ALSO SPARE NOT THEE.” How on Earth can you read what God has plainly told us in His Word and then say something that totally contradicts it?

           Christians have a saying that they like to put forth: “If you feel far from God, guess who moved?” The reason why this is true is because it isn’t God’s fault that we feel distanced from Him; it’s our fault. We have His Word, His guarantee, that He will never “move,” but His creation can move even as far as breaking the covenant that was made with Him, something to which He, Himself, testifies in the Jeremiah verses, and there are eternal consequences for that. That only a physical remnant of Israel was saved during the time of the Exodus and during the time of Christ, and only a spiritual remnant will be saved before history comes to an end further proves that just because one is, at one time, a chosen child of God doesn’t mean that this status is permanent. Those people who don’t willingly circumcise themselves, their minds, their hearts, and their hands will be circumcised, or “cut off” by God from His presence.

           Over the last weeks and months, I have provided many examples that biblically prove that believers can lose their salvation. Just as God’s people used their free will to break their covenant with God in the OT, so also God’s people have the free will to break it in the NT. In the following verses, which I posted before, we read of just some of the written stipulations that are to be observed by the other party in the new covenant, the born-again believer, and for anyone to ignore them just because they don’t fit into a theology that teaches once saved, always saved is, quite frankly, an affront to the eternal Word that God gave us for the express purpose of being able to absolutely find and know His truth over and above the lies that Satan and the world would have us believe. In other words, each one of these verses MUST be considered by you and everyone else when determining whether believers can lose their salvation or not because they are the Word of God. They are “if” verses, illustrating that, while our initial salvation is a free gift, our final salvation most certainly is not, that there are conditions that must be met. (All caps are mine.)

           ~“But IF ye forgive not men their trespasses, neither will your Father forgive your trespasses” (Matt. 6:15).
           ~“And his lord was wroth, and delivered him to the tormentors, till he should pay all that was due unto him. So likewise shall my heavenly Father do also unto you, IF ye from your hearts forgive not every one his brother their trespasses” (Matt. 18:34-35).
           ~“Then said Jesus to those Jews which believed on him, IF ye continue in my word, [then] are ye my disciples indeed; And ye shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you free” (Jn. 8:31-32).
           ~“Verily, verily, I say unto you, IF a man keep my saying, he shall never see death” (Jn. 8:51).
           ~“I am the vine, ye [are] the branches: He that abideth in me, and I in him, the same bringeth forth much fruit: for without me ye can do nothing. IF a man abide not in me, he is cast forth as a branch, and is withered; and men gather them, and cast [them] into the fire, and they are burned” (Jn. 15:5-6).
           ~“For IF ye live after the flesh, ye shall die: but IF ye through the Spirit do mortify the deeds of the body, ye shall live.” (Rom. 8:13).
           ~“Behold therefore the goodness and severity of God: on them which fell, severity; but toward thee, goodness, IF thou continue in [his] goodness: otherwise thou also shalt be cut off” (Rom. 11:22).
           ~“And let us not be weary in well doing: for in due season we shall reap, IF we faint not” (Gal. 6:9).
           ~“In the body of his flesh through death, to present you holy and unblameable and unreproveable in his sight: IF ye continue in the faith grounded and settled, and [be] not moved away from the hope of the gospel, which ye have heard, [and] which was preached to every creature which is under heaven; whereof I Paul am made a minister” (Col. 1:22-23).
           ~“For now we live, IF ye stand fast in the Lord” (I Th. 3:8).
           ~“IF we suffer, we shall also reign with [him]: IF we deny [him], he also will deny us” (II Tim. 2:12).
           ~“But Christ as a son over his own house; whose house are we, IF we hold fast the confidence and the rejoicing of the hope firm unto the end” (Heb. 3:6).
           ~“For we are made partakers of Christ, IF we hold the beginning of our confidence stedfast unto the end” (Heb. 3:14).
           ~“IF ye endure chastening, God dealeth with you as with sons; for what son is he whom the father chasteneth not? But IF ye be without chastisement, whereof all are partakers, then are ye bastards, and not sons” (Heb. 12:7-8).
           ~“See that ye refuse not him that speaketh. For if they escaped not who refused him that spake on earth, much more [shall not] we [escape], IF we turn away from him that [speaketh] from heaven” (Heb. 12:25).
           ~“But IF we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship one with another, and the blood of Jesus Christ his Son cleanseth us from all sin” (I Jn. 1:7).
           ~“IF we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us [our] sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness” (I Jn. 1:9).
           ~“Let that therefore abide in you, which ye have heard from the beginning. IF that which ye have heard from the beginning shall remain in you, ye also shall continue in the Son, and in the Father” (I Jn. 2:24).

           If the doctrine of eternal security doctrine is true, then what is the point of all these verses, and why would Jesus Christ Himself give an analogy in John 15:1-6 that absolutely contradicts this doctrine? I cited this passage before, and you have never responded to it. I know that you and others can find verses that appear to contradict what I’ve written, but all that proves is that you really don’t know the Word as much as you think because the point isn’t to find ‘opposing’ Scripture, it’s to reconcile Scripture. Then and only then will anyone have the eternal truth of God’s Word.

           During my study time on Friday, I was reading John 6:53-58. Christ is telling us two very important things about His blood and His flesh and that is that both are necessary to have life in Him, meaning, not just life in our earthly state but an eternal life in Heaven. According to you, “carnal” Christians will inherit the kingdom of God, but this passage contradicts your opinion. There is so very much that I am sure can be gleaned from this passage, but my purpose isn’t to cover everything but to give you a point from which to study your assertion that anyone who has made a true, initial commitment will be with God for eternity, regardless of any subsequent behavior. Christ is emphasizing the point that to enter in His kingdom, we must partake of His entire meal, the drink and the food. We enter the covenant by partaking of the blood (the drink), that is, accepting His sacrifice as a covering for our sin so that we may be found justified before a holy God. We remain in the covenant by partaking of the flesh (the food), which results in our spiritually growing in the Word, meaning to become more Christlike. It isn’t solely the blood portion of the meal that ensures our entrance into heaven but our continued daily feeding on the Word that, through our willing submission to its power and truth, changes us into vessels of gold fit to dwell in God’s heavenly temple in eternity. As verse 54 says, “Whoso eateth my flesh, AND drinketh my blood, hath eternal life; and I will raise him up at the last day” (caps mine). This is also the point of verse 58, and verse 56 clearly says that, unless both are partaken of, Christ isn’t in fellowship with that person. We are told in John 14:6 that Christ is the only way to the Father, and we are also told that Christ is “the life,” and that life, according to John 6, can only be realized by partaking of both elements of the meal because it is Christ’s life in us that the Father recognizes, and a “carnal” Christian does not have the life of Christ in him as I wrote in a recent post because he is at enmity with God. Just as we are justified in God’s sight through the blood of Christ covering us, so are we sanctified in God’s sight through the flesh, or Word, of Christ dwelling in us and having its perfect way with us. In other words, it is only if there is any real change in our thinking, our speech, and our actions, that proves that we abide in Christ and that He abides in us. This is the point of John 15:1-8. It is the work of Christ’s flesh, the bread of the written Word, in us that gains us entrance into God’s kingdom in Heaven. The blood only gains us entrance into the kingdom on Earth, and the only purpose for the blood covering is so that God, through His Holy Spirit, could even to bear to dwell in our filthy flesh in order to begin and end His sanctifying work to ready us for eternity with Him. In other words, even though we are saved in our sin, God still cannot abide in it, and to assert that a pure God would allow the profane to dwell in His holy presence for eternity is nothing but great heresy.

           I Peter 2:5 says, “…you also, as living stones, are being built up a spiritual house, a holy priesthood, to offer up spiritual sacrifices acceptable to God through Jesus Christ.” Frank, how can a carnal person be a “living stone” who offers us “spiritual sacrifices acceptable to God”? In addition, we need look no further than Leviticus 10:1-2 and Matthew 5:13 to see the end of those who are profane and those who have not grown spiritually in the Lord.

           Frank, I have attempted these past months to provide starting places for you to study the Word of God, and you and I both know that you have pretty much ignored everything I’ve written except to offer proof texts that appear to contradict what I have written. You have failed in EVERY instance to prove me wrong because you refuse to consider any verses that don’t agree with you. In contrast, except for one or two things that I may have overlooked, I have addressed everything you’ve brought up in great detail with supporting Scripture. Just once, Frank, I would like you to be honest in your approach to Scripture and to answer one big question: Why doesn’t God’s Word agree with your theology on eternal security? It is one thing to disagree with my explanations, but you don’t even agree that the verses I cite are even in the Bible. You completely ignore their existence as though I am making them up, but the fact is, I’m not making them up, and whether or not you like what they have to say, they are still there saying it. I would like to think that you would step up to the plate one time and address each and every point that I have made rather than merely cite more verses that appear to contradict what I’ve written. Would you please do this?

           I pray that as you study every verse and passage about which I’ve written that the Holy Spirit will open your eyes to the whole Word of God and that He will grant you understanding.

           Your sister~
           Barbara

         • Frank Zimmerman says

           June 25, 2012 at 6:40 am

           Hi Barbara, hope all is well. Thanks for your last response. Your main point as to the reason for the loss of salvation (after all is said and done so to speak) is that we leave God. No child of God ever stops “believing” in Jesus because it is his new nature to believe(work of the indwelling presence of God’s Spirit). God has always saved men by faith(nothing added). Saving faith is a gift of God and secures the requirement for salvation(faith) for all eternity.

           Jesus is NOT talking about us abiding in him in John 15 in a soteriological sense as in Romans 8:1. Romans 8:1 is a statement of position in Christ in a salvation context. Jesus in John 15 is using an earthly analogy of the importance of the branches remaing in the vine for “fruit bearing” Not for salvation. This is a common mistake that people who accept the doctrine of insecurity teach and wrongfully so. Defining the context is central to understanding what scripture says and does not say.
           I also think that you are getting mixed up a little on the “If’s” of scripture.
           I will make a statement concerning me for illustration. If I remain faithful until the end I will be saved. You would agree to this I’m sure. The reason I WILL be faithful is that God is at work in me. Paul said he labored more abundantly than them all but that it wasn’t him but rather God laboring in him. You see it was NOT Paul but God. This is critical for you to see.
           I believe all the verses you use with all my heart but they must be correctly understood.

           1 Peter 1 is an excellent chapter to see how a believer once saved is “kept” saved through out all eternity.

           Verse 5. Who are kept by the power of God through faith” then the most incredible word “READY” to be revealed in the last time”. I am ready and I will be ready.

           “the phrase “power of God” is speaking of the Holy Spirit. “through faith” is the faith divinely enabled by the Spirit(1 John 5:1) I believe in Jesus with saving faith because I have been born of God.

           One last thought. If a person is saved that are at present the recipient of “ETERNAL LIFE” references to this are numerous throughout scripture (John 5:24, 2 Cor. 5:17 and on and on and on. Many passages make it crystal clear we presently HAVE eternal life.

           If someone loses that “eternal life” then it negates the whole idea of it being eternal. To see anything else is to become extremely confused (to say the least) in ones thinking. Eternal life is forever not for 25 years or 12 years or whatever the case might be, surely you must see this. I trust that you do. Wow, I guess this is how our political process is, both camps entrenched and neither will be moved (ha ha). I would dare to say if we were disagreeing with a doctrine that was not so critical we would be more apt to leave it be. But here I stand and can not move but I hear what you’re saying but still feel you are not getting it. Keep going and may the Lord open both our eyes as I always need him to. God bless!

         • Barbara LeFevre says

           June 26, 2012 at 2:11 pm

           Frank~

           I will have my response posted tomorrow.

           Barbara

         • Barbara LeFevre says

           June 29, 2012 at 5:14 am

           Hi Frank~

           I thought I would be able to get this done by Wednesday, but I didn’t, and then I was out of town all day Thursday. I will have it posted later today.

           I hope you have a good day.

           Barbara

         • Barbara LeFevre says

           June 29, 2012 at 2:34 pm

           Frank~

           Every time I respond to your questions, I keep praying that you will take the time to really research what I have written, but you never do. I really don’t understand how you reach the conclusions you do because most of the verses that I cited, regardless of which Bible version is used, are so plainly written that there really is no way that they can be misinterpreted unless one has an agenda. I don’t mean any disrespect toward you, but to be honest, the only people that I have conversations like this with are Mormons and Jehovah’s Witnesses, and this shouldn’t be the case with a fellow believer. The problem isn’t that there is disagreement between us about God’s Word; it’s your absolute refusal to approach the Word in an honest and scholarly manner.

           You wrote, “No child of God ever stops ‘believing’ in Jesus because it is his new nature to believe(work of the indwelling presence of God’s Spirit).” Your comment is wrong for several reasons: First, if no child of God ever stops believing, then Paul is a liar because he said that there was going to be a great “falling away” before the end (II Th. 2:3). The phrase “falling away” means “defection, apostasy” (apostasia, Strong’s G646), and the only way one can apostatize is if he or she IS a “child of God.” Secondly, that we have a “new nature” only means two things. The first is that we are no longer governed by a sin nature, and the second is that we now have the “indwelling presence of God’s Spirit” to teach and guide us; however, this, IN NO WAY should be understood to mean that we are incapable of ignoring what the Holy Spirit is saying (Heb. 3:8-19, I Th. 5:19) because we don’t check our free will at the door of our salvation. Not only does the passage in Hebrews, alone, destroy your theology, three verses in particular leave no question. Verses 7-8 give a very clear warning: “Wherefore (as the Holy Ghost saith, To day if ye will hear his voice, Harden not your hearts, as in the provocation, in the day of temptation in the wilderness.” Apparently, even the Holy Spirit knows that believers’ hearts can become insensitive and unresponsive to His leading despite the fact that they have “new nature[s].” In addition, verse 12 says, “Take heed, brethren, lest there be in any of you an evil heart of unbelief, in departing from the living God.” What this verse is unmistakably saying is that the “brethren,” who are believers, can very definitely have “an evil heart of unbelief” and that they can, just as definitely, “[depart] from the living God.” This verse is easy to understand, so there cannot be any reason to interpret it in any other sense than believers have the free will to become deadened to the leading of the Holy Spirit in their lives, resulting in their leaving God, thereby breaking their covenant with God. Thirdly, Romans 10:17 says, “So then faith [cometh] by hearing, and hearing by the word of God.” I cited this verse because it very much testifies, along with Hebrews 5:12-6:8 and James 1:23-24, that our faith can only grow through studying the Word and applying its teachings. Believers who don’t study and who don’t apply its teachings will not have a sustainable faith, and if they continue to refuse the sanctifying work of the Holy Spirit that has been provided for them they WILL either walk away or drift away because there is nothing connecting them to their professed belief system.

           I certainly don’t know how you could come to the conclusion that “Jesus is NOT talking about us abiding in him in John 15 in a soteriological sense as in Romans 8:1….Jesus in John 15 is using an earthly analogy of the importance of the branches remaing [sic] in the vine for “fruit bearing” Not for salvation.” Yes, it is an analogy, an analogy of two types of branches IN CHRIST, one that bears fruit and one that doesn’t. That Jesus said that He would “take away” the non-bearing branches in verse 2 and that they would be “cast…into the fire” and “ burned” in verse 6 very much establishes, if one reads the context, as you wrote, that salvation is very much the issue. In fact, there is no other conclusion that can possibly be gleaned from this passage unless one just ignores the consequences that Jesus says will transpire. What is the significance of the phrases “[taken] away” and “cast [them] into the fire, and they are burned” to the meaning if not loss of salvation? Are we to believe that God had John insert some irrelevant and, according to you, false and misleading information into the text, or is there some clear rationale that is developed through the context, knitted together by the word “abide” being used nine times, in order that a specific and unambiguous conclusion can be reached? You made the comment that I believe in a “doctrine of insecurity,” and then instruct me on the importance of “defining the context,” which is fine except for two things. You gave exactly zero explanation as to why my understanding of John 15 itself is wrong, and you failed to include the context because everything very much disputes your conclusions.

           Your telling me that I am the one “getting mixed up a little on the “If’s” illustrates that you didn’t look up even one of the 18 verses I cited. I did, and the breakdown is as follows: ‘Ean’ (G1437) is used 10 times. ‘Ean me’ (G3362) is used 3 times. “Ei” (G1487) is used 4 times, and ‘Eige’ (G1489) is used 1 time. The 15 times that “if” is used as ‘ean,’ ‘ei,’ and ‘eige,’ they are all conditional particles. The other three times that “if “ is used as ‘ean me,’ they are conjunction particles. In each one of these 18 scriptural examples, the word “if” means…. IF. In other words, specific effects or results will be the by products of specific causal conditionals being met. The entry for ‘ean’ (Strong’s G1437) says, “..a conditional particle…which makes reference to time and to experience, introducing something future, but not determining, before the event, whther it is certainly to take place: if, in case” (Thayer’s). Because you don’t believe anything I write, perhaps you will believe Strong’s Concordance and Thayer’s Lexicon. Also, your analogy is fallacious. While it is true that God works in the believer, you provide no logical connection to link that fact with your conclusion that believers cannot lose their salvation. In addition, you have totally ignored the “if” altogether. For your conclusion to make any sense, the word used in your analogy and all 18 verses that I cited would be ‘because’: “[BECAUSE] I remain faithful until the end I will be saved.” ‘Because’ and ‘if’ are two totally different words, meaning they have different meanings and functions. Had God wanted these verses to reflect certainty, He would have used a word that denotes certainty, and “if” doesn’t, no matter how it is used.

           I already addressed in a previous post those verses that illustrate God’s responsibility in the covenant that He made with believers, so I won’t go into the verses you cited that show that He is faithful. I already know that He’s faithful, and I also know that many believers are not, and that is where the problem lies. You are right; these verses “must be correctly understood” and that includes reconciling Scripture, interpreting things in context, and not taking liberties with the words that are used, all of which you have done.

           The following verses are just a few that discuss the idea of ‘eternal life’:

           ~John 5:24b says that believers “hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but [are] passed from death unto life.”
           ~I John 5:13b says that believers “may know that [they] have eternal life.”
           ~Titus 1:2a says that believers are “In hope of eternal life.”
           ~Titus 3:7b says that believers “should be made heirs according to the hope of eternal life.”

           I think that there are many truths that can be understood from the above four verses and, when harmonized, they formulate a sound doctrine. When John says that believers “hath eternal life” and “hath passed from death to life,” which are written in the present tense, we understand these declarations to be only a partial fulfillment of the promise because believers, clearly, don’t have their final and complete eternal life because, currently, they are not in the realm of “eternity” but in the realm of “time.” The way in which we can understand the idea of eternal life can be seen in how the word “heir” is used in Titus 3:7b. It is an example of how the same word can have both a current and future application. A person such as Prince William, because he is descended from royalty, is called an heir because he currently benefits from his family’s estate. In this sense, we currently have eternal life because we have Christ, who is eternal life, dwelling within us, and we currently reap the benefits of that relationship. In addition, there is also a future application to the word “heir” because Prince William is also heir to the throne. In like manner, then, believers will later receive the fullness of the promise. Believers can say that they have eternal life and support it biblically although they don’t have it in the fullest sense. This is why believers simultaneously “[have] eternal life” (Jn. 5:24b) and have the “hope of eternal life” (Ti. 1:2a), so it isn’t confusing as you have written.

           I know that several times that I’ve said that I wasn’t going to continue with this dialogue, but I have continued to do so hoping that this will be the time that you will be honest with Scripture, but this time is no different than the others. You have totally ignored what doesn’t agree with you, failed to address what is plainly written to us, and twisted Scripture to support your theology. I can’t imagine why any believer would do this, but since you insist on refusing to investigate all Scripture and to let Scripture speak for itself, I see no reason to continue. I will, again, show you why your view of Scripture is false, but after that, I won’t continue with you. I’m sorry. I’m sure you are a nice person, but I just don’t get it; I don’t get why you allow your bias to color your theology even after you have been presented with clear Scripture. You can call me wrong all day long, but you are the one who can’t reconcile Scripture, who proof text to arrive at conclusions, and who ignores Scripture. You’ve done this a lot, but in my last response, I cited Romans 11:21 which says, “For if God spared not the natural branches, [take heed] lest he also spare not thee,” and you totally ignored it. Frank, this is only one of scores of unambiguous verses, verses that are straightforward in presentation and not laden with figurative language, that prove with absolute certainty that believers today can lose their salvation, can be forever ‘cut off’ from God’s presence, just as they were in the OT, which I proved in the last post with Scripture. If you have a change of heart and actually want to discuss why your view cannot stand in agreement with the verses and explanations, then I will be more than happy to continue. If I am the one who is truly “not getting it,” then please tell me why the doctrine of eternity security contradicts the above verse in Romans. This would include, of course, why God is an inept liar for allowing this lie of Satan to be included in His holy Word, given what we are told in Proverbs 30:5, II Timothy 3:16, and Hebrews 4:12. If you can, then we can continue.

           Your sister in Christ~
           Barbara

         • Barbara LeFevre says

           June 29, 2012 at 2:45 pm

           I inadvertently deleted the phrase “an explanation as to” after the phrase “of course” in the second to last sentence of my last paragraph. Sorry.

6. Barbara LeFevre says

   June 14, 2012 at 7:02 am

   Hi Justin~

   Thank you so much for giving us these explanations. They are a great addition to the command to study the Word in that they help us approach and understand the depths of the Word better!

   I do have a question on your comment, “Thus, it would appear it had ‘been granted to know the mysteries of the kingdom of heaven’ to Jesus’ disciples who were truly His (excluding Judas) before ‘the foundation of the world,’ but they did not come to know and understand these ‘mysteries’ until after they had personally committed their lives to Jesus.” It sounds to me like you are saying that Judas was excluded from knowing the mysteries of the kingdom of heaven because, I am assuming, that he later betrayed Jesus, but doesn’t that create a problem with what we know about Judas? In Matthew 10:1-4, we are told that Jesus did choose Judas as one of the twelve disciples, and in verse 1, Jesus gave each one of them, including Judas, “power [against] unclean ” as well as the ability to “heal all manner of sickness and all manner of disease.” Jesus did later call him a “devil” (Jn. 6:70), but naming Judas a disciple and giving him this power would not make sense if Judas was never a true disciple. In other words, would Jesus give the designation of a true believer and give His godly power to a devil? That is not scriptural or reasonable. Later, yes, we know that Satan entered him and that he later betrayed Jesus, but all this proves is that we each are given a choice to continue with the Lord, irrespective of any initial commitment we have made. We need to remember that although Jesus chose each one of them, He didn’t force any of them to follow Him, initially or subsequently. That was a decision that each man made for himself. In addition, as we know from Matthew 27, Judas repented of what he did and tried to make amends (v. 3) and acknowledged his sin that he had “betrayed innocent blood” (v. 4). Unfortunately, he didn’t avail himself of God’s forgiveness and took his own life (v. 5). That he would do these things illustrates, I believe, that he had a spiritual consciousness of what he did which could only come had he been a true follower of Jesus, however shortly.

   I believe that the conclusion that Judas was never a true disciple is too quickly reached because his sin of betraying Jesus happened fairly soon in the scheme of things, but this scenario is very much explained in the parable of the sower (Luke 8:11-15). We know that the people in verse 13 are believers because they “receive the word with joy” and “for a while believe.” However, because they have not studied and shown themselves approved by God (II Tim. 2:15) and have not grown in the grace and knowledge of Jesus Christ (II Pet.3:18) as commanded, we are told that they “have no root” in themselves. Consequently, “in time of temptation,” they “fall away,” meaning they ‘apostatize.’ Similarly, those people in verse 15 are saved because we are told, “they…heard” and “went] forth,” actions of a believer. However, just as in the story of the rich young ruler, these people were not willing to die to themselves, to surrender all to the Lord, so they become “choked with cares and riches and pleasures of [this] life, and bring no fruit to perfection.” The verse says that they have fruit, which is the evidence of salvation, but because their loyalties and energies are spent in worldly pursuits and not godly ones, the fruit that began to grow never became fully ripened, or perfected, by a life submitted to the Holy Spirit. We know that one of Judas’ sins was greed, so it is safe to conclude that one or both of the examples given in this parable can be applied to Judas, that he was a true disciple privy to the mysteries of the kingdom, but in failing to grow in Christ and by yielding to the temptation of his flesh and the evil of the world, he removed himself from fellowship with God, although, as I wrote, he could have availed himself of God’s grace just like the rest of us.

   I very much would like your thoughts on what I have written. God bless you in all you do for the kingdom!

   Barbara

   • Justin Alfred says

     June 15, 2012 at 10:23 am

     Dear Barbara:

     Thank you so very much for your very thoughtful and well-stated points concerning Judas. The questions you pose are very important, and I will attempt to answer them. However, I am going to hold off on the Parable of the Sower, as I am going to address that passage in a later Blog in a fairly detailed manner. On the other hand, with regard to Judas and Jesus’ choice of him, and was he a true disciple or not is indeed of genuine importance in our understanding God’s plans and purposes in His creation.
     I believe the most definitive passage concering Judas with regard to Jesus knowing what Judas was going to do from the moment Jesus chose him is found in John 6:60-71: “Many therefore of His disciples, when they heard this said, “This is a difficult statement; who can listen to it?” 61 But Jesus, conscious that His disciples grumbled at this, said to them, “Does this cause you to stumble? 62 “What then if you should behold the Son of Man ascending where He was before? 63 “It is the Spirit who gives life; the flesh profits nothing; the words that I have spoken to you are spirit and are life. 64 “But there are some of you who do not believe.” For Jesus knew from the beginning who they were who did not believe, and who it was that would betray Him. 65 And He was saying, “For this reason I have said to you, that no one can come to Me, unless it has been granted him from the Father.” 66 As a result of this many of His disciples withdrew, and were not walking with Him anymore. 67 Jesus said therefore to the twelve, “You do not want to go away also, do you?” 68 Simon Peter answered Him, “Lord, to whom shall we go? You have words of eternal life. 69 “And we have believed and have come to know that You are the Holy One of God.” 70 Jesus answered them, “Did I Myself not choose you, the twelve, and yet one of you is a devil?” 71 Now He meant Judas the son of Simon Iscariot, for he, one of the twelve, was going to betray Him” (John 6:60-71). The context of this passage, as you well know, but some of our readers may not, is that Jesus has just finished telling the crowd that “unless you eat the flesh of the Son of Man and drink His blood, you have no life in yourselves. 54 “He who eats My flesh and drinks My blood has eternal life, and I will raise him up on the last day. 55 “For My flesh is true food, and My blood is true drink. 56 “He who eats My flesh and drinks My blood abides in Me, and I in him. 57 “As the living Father sent Me, and I live because of the Father, so he who eats Me, he also shall live because of Me. 58 “This is the bread which came down out of heaven; not as the fathers ate, and died, he who eats this bread shall live forever” (Joh 6:53-58). That is where verse 60 comes into play, “Many therefore of His disciples, when they heard this said, “This is a difficult statement; who can listen to it?” (John 6:60). Obviously, this was not some unintended statement that Jesus made in an “off the cuff” remark, but rather it was fully intended as a means of separating those who would eventually become what we might term as “true believers” from those who were not going to fully commit their lives to Him, and verse 64 is rather clear concerning that premise: “But there are some of you who do not believe.” For Jesus knew from the beginning who they were who did not believe, and who it was that would betray Him” (Joh 6:64). Now a very legitimate question might be posed as to just exactly what time frame was John referring to when he said of Jesus, “For Jesus knew from the beginning wo they were who did not believe, and who it was that would betray Him” (John 6:64)? First of all, the Greek verb “knew” is a pluperfect verb, and the pluperfect indicates action that was completed in the past, with the results of that action also occurring in the past. Thus, at some point in the past, the act of disbelief had already been accomplished in the lives of certain of those “disciples,” and the manifestation of that disbelief was also going to be revealed at some point as a fulfillment of what was already known was going to occur. The question that you raise, however, that is integral to this passage as a whole, and to verse 64 specifically, is what is “from the beginning” referring to? I must admit that with regard to this question, there can be legitimate differences of opinion. Some might say it is referring to the “beginning” of Jesus’ ministry before He chose His disciples, and others might argue that it is referring to the actual beginning of His choosing the disciples, and some might say it includes both of these time frames. However, the other very real, and I personally believe, the most plausable explanation is inclusive of not only the earthly time frame of the beginning of Jesus’ ministry and the choosing of His disciples, but from the beginning of the ages, and I draw that from John 1:1: “In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.” Another reason I believe this is the beginning of the ages, if you will, is John 6:65: “And He was saying, “For this reason I have said to you, that no one can come to Me, unless it has been granted him from the Father.” The Greek word translated “can” is “dunatai,” and it means “to have the ability or capability of doing something,” and in this verse, I believe it is quite clear that the “ability or capability” has to do with “coming to Jesus” in saving faith. Jesus goes on to say that the “ability or capability” to come to Him “has been granted him from the Father.” In other words, those who do come to Jesus in saving faith are enabled to do so by the power of God the Father. The actual English phrase, “has been granted,” comes from the Greek verb “dedomenon,” and it is a perfect, passive participle, which means it is emphasizing an action that has been completed before that of the main verb, with an attending and continuous result, and the main verb here in this sentence is the verb “can.” In addition, the root form of the Greek verb “dedomenon” is “didomi,” and in addition to “grant,” it also means “to give, bestow, grant, and cause to come into being and happen.” Thus, what Jesus is saying is that unless God enables someone to come to Him, they won’t come. On the other hand, earlier in chapter 6 of John Jesus also said, “All that the Father gives Me shall come to Me, and the one who comes to Me I will certainly not cast out” (John 6:37), and again, “No one can come to Me, unless the Father who sent Me draws him; and I will raise him up on the last day” (John 6:44). The phrase in John 6:37, “I will certainly not cast out,” is in the Greek, “ou me ekbalo,” which is a subjunctive of emphatic negation, the very grammatical aspect this current Blog is talking about. Therefore, when we come to verses 70-71, I believe we have a rather clear and obvious picture that even before Jesus chose Judas, He knew Judas was going to betray Him: “Jesus answered them, “Did I Myself not choose you, the twelve, and yet one of you is a devil?” 71 Now He meant Judas the son of Simon Iscariot, for he, one of the twelve, was going to betray Him” (John 6:70-71). Thus, it would appear to me that “from the beginning,” which I believe is the “beginning of the ages,” but I will concede that it may also include “from the beginning of His ministry and the choosing of His disciples,” Jesus knew that Judas was going to betray Him, and from my perspective, I, therefore, do not see Judas as being one who was going to be a true believer and follower of Jesus.
     There is indeed much more that can and will be said later in a future blog concering this overall subject of what might be termed as true and untrue believers.
     However, I do want to thank you for your question concerning Judas, as I know that others also may similar questions, and it is important to help provide answers as best as the Lord enables to do so.

     God bless you,

     Justin T. Alfred

     • Frank Zimmerman says

       June 15, 2012 at 4:40 pm

       Very good Justin, I also believe that it was probably from eternity past so to speak. Verse 45 of Chapter 6 helped me alot along the way to where I am now, “and they shall be all taught of God”. I questioned all my life why there was no desire in my Father or really my mother either to tell me about Jesus and salvation. It was just my sister and me and she always thought the bible was man made and could not be trusted. Not meaning to sound redundant but looking back things are absolutely crystal clear how God was at work nurturing me even before I was saved (age 15).No one ever told me the bible was the word of God as a kid I just knew it. I didn’t understand it until I was saved then it all came alive. I thought it was me who just showed up one day at camp heard a message and believed but it was that but it was much more than that. God is a behind the scenes worker using people, events etc. to accomplish his purposes. This is not limited to the flow of history but includes the salvation of mens souls as well. FZ

       • Frank Zimmerman says

         June 15, 2012 at 4:58 pm

         Let me add this as well. Actually the Holy Spirit gives us eyes to see and ears to hear. How can we discern truth from error, the Spirit. How when we sit down and read Ephesians there is absolutely NO QUESTION THAT IT IS THE WORD OF GOD? Its the Holy Spirit that convinces us. How do we know beyond a shadow of a doubt Jesus is God of very God, Holy Spirit. I heard a priest on fox news say we really can’t be sure 100% its all true??? those are the marks of a unregenerate man. See 1John 5:1 Look at the verb tense for born again passive cause God was active we were passive, and the reason we actively believe presently is because WE were BORN OF GOD in the past. No one tells you that you are saved God does.click on the tenses function on the right side-on the KJV only. this verse teaches that it is the Holy Spirit producing the saving faith in me because of my new birth when I was 15.

     • Teresa says

       June 18, 2012 at 11:40 am

       Thank you for taking the time to address this so fully, Pastor Justin! Your explanation has been very helpful to me.

7. steve morrow says

   June 14, 2012 at 7:40 am

   Romans 8:29 Wycliffe Bible
   For that that HE new before HE before ordained by grace to be made like unto the image of HIS SON that HE be the first begotten among many brethren

   2 Thessalonians 2:13 Wycliffe
   In which also HE —CALLED—you by our —GOSPEL—into
   getting of the glory of our LORD JESUS CHRIST

   2 Thessalonians 2:13 KJV
   But we are bound to give thanks always to GOD brethren beloved of the LORD
   BECAUSE GOD HATH FROM THE BEGINNING —CHOSEN—YOU TO SALVATION
   THROUGH —-SANCTIFICATION OF THE SPIRIT—-AND BELIEF OF THE TRUTH

   John 17:17
   Sanctify them through thy truth
   Thy word is truth

   John 6:63
   It is the spirit that quickeneth the flesh profiteth nothing
   the words that I speak unto you
   they are spirit
   they are life

   John 6:68
   Then Simon peter answered HIM
   LORD to whom shall we go
   —-THOU HAST THE WORDS OF ETERNAL LIFE/SALVATION—-

   Acts 20:32
   And now brethren I commend you to GOD and—AND TO THE WORD OF HIS GRACE—which is able to build you up and to—GIVE YOU—
   AN INHERITANCE —-AMONG THEM WHICH ARE—SANCTIFIED

   Titus 2:11
   For the grace of GOD that —-BRINGETH—- SALVATION—-
   hath appeared to all men

   2 Timothy 3:15
   And from a child thou hast known the —HOLY SCRIPTURES—-
   WHICH ARE ABLE TO MAKE YOU—-WISE UNTO SALVATION—- THROUGH FAITH WHICH IS IN CHRIST JESUS

   Deuteronomy 7:6
   For thou art an HOLY PEOPLE unto the LORD thy GOD the LORD thy GOD hath—CHOSEN— thee to be a special people unto HIMSELF above all the people that are upon the face of the earth

   Matthew 20:16
   So that the last shall be first and the first last
   —FOR MANY BE CALLED BUT FEW CHOSEN—

   2 Timothy 2:3
   Thou therefore —ENDURE— hardness as a good soldier of JESUS CHRIST

   2 Timothy 2:4
   No man that wareth entangleth himself with the affairs of this life that he may —-PLEASE HIM THAT HATH CHOSEN HIM TO BE A SOLDIER—

   2 Timothy 2:5
   And if a man strive for masteries
   YET IS HE NOT CROWNED—EXCEPT HE STRIVE LAWFULLY—

   2 Timothy 4:7
   I HAVE FOUGHT A GOOD FIGHT I HAVE FINISHED MY COURSE I HAVE KEPT THE FAITH

   Psalm 119:144
   Thy testimonies that thou hast commanded are righteous and —VERY FAITHFUL—

   James 4:8
   Draw nigh unto GOD and HE will draw nigh unto you
   Cleanse your hands you sinners and purify your hearts
   you double minded

   LOVING THE LORD

8. Jerry S. says

   June 14, 2012 at 9:59 am

   I love this discourse and I agree with Tim, there are a lot of topics to read thru and it makes it difficult to be brief.

   When was it granted? – What do you think about this, Is. 6:9-10 is quoted in Mat. 13:14. We can also find similar prophecies in Ps. 119:70 and Zech. 7:11-14. Focusing on Zech. 7:12, “they should hear the law, and the words which the LORD of hosts hath sent in his spirit by the former prophets”. The answer to the question is in Mat. 13, when and where “the mysteries of the kingdom of heaven” were granted and known would be throughout the Hebrew scriptures given by the Law and Prophets.

   Eph. 1, v.4 – Several translations have the first use of the word “him” (autos) with a lower case “h”, most likely referring to Adam, leaving a different impression to the reader of those versions of scripture because the translator viewed it in a different context. The scriptures are inerrant, translators to a target language are not. v.5 – I give praise that we are adopted children into the Kingdom and allowed the same legal right, under the given law, to all that is promised to the natural branch, Gods chosen from the foundation of the world. v.10 – The mysteries of heaven and earth are summed up in Yeshua who not only was there, but is the foundation of both.

   1Cor. 2:6, 8 – Paul is pointing out that it was the “rulers” and those who followed them and their traditions who “οὐ μὴ συνῆτε (ou mē sunēte)” and “οὐ μὴ ἴδητε (ou mē idēte)”. See Mat. 15: 1-14. In v.14 Jesus instructs the disciples to “leave them alone” in other words, have nothing to do with them, them being the Scribes and Pharisee’s.

   Born again – I would say there are many OT people who understood the mysteries revealed to them by the LORD well before Messiah explained having our spirits regenerated by the gift of the Spirit of God to Nicodemus. Which in fact is one of the mysteries of OT prophecy revealed.

   Predestination – To me is an argument put forth by those who may want to say the “wrath of God” is unjustified. As long as we do not know the future, our choices are our own no matter where we find ourselves on the other side of death.

   • Justin Alfred says

     June 14, 2012 at 10:15 pm

     Dear Jerry:

     You make some excellent and salient points in your response to the Blog of Matthew 13, and I would like to address them in the chronological order that you presented them:
     1) “When was it granted?” – You made mention of Psalm 119:70, and as you look at verses 65-72, what stands out to me in addition to verse 70 regarding those whose “heart is covered with fat,” is that they are also described as being “arrogant” in verse 69. The word for “arrogant” in this verse in Hebrew is “zed,” and it is an adjective, meaning “insolent and presumptuous.” Thus, those whose “heart is covered with fat” is so because of their “insolence and presumptuousness” in seeing themselves as their own “god” (Genesis 3:1-7) and making up their own, relative standard for “good and evil,” based on their own self-deification, regardless of what religious context they are in. Your reference to Zechariah 7:11-14 is outstanding, as it indeed encapsulates what Isaiah 6:9-10 is saying, along with Jesus referencing Isaiah 6:9-10 in Matthew 13 to the Jews as a whole who were listening to Him (Matthew 13:10-17). And indeed, without any question, their inability to understand and perceive the truth that Jesus was speaking is due to their hardness of heart as described above in Zech. 7:11-14. However, your conclusion to your question, “When was it granted?,” that “The answer to the question is in Mat. 13, when and where ‘the mysteries of the kingdom of heaven’ were granted and known wold be throughout the Hebrew scriptures given by the Law and Prophets,” I believe is only partially true. I was born and raised in Jackson, MS, and I attended a Baptist Church all of my life, was baptized and joined the Church when I was eight years old, but I had no clue as to what it really meant to be a Christian for all those years, and neither did anyone else I grew up with, including adults in the Church who were even leaders – we all thought that if our good deeds outweighed our bad deeds, we would get to heaven. It was not until my senior year in Murrah High School in Jackson, MS, when a young girl who I didn’t even know began praying for me daily to come to Christ that I started coming under the conviction of the Holy Spirit. That began in January, 1965, and it grew more intense throughout the year, and as the conviction grew, so did my running from the Lord intensify. However, when I reported to Mississippi State University in August of 1965 to begin two-a-day training for football (I had received a football scholarshp to Mississippi State in January of 1965), I met some players who were truly “born again,” and there was a distinct difference in their lives. It was through their witness both on and off the field, coupled with this young girl’s prayers for me that brought me to the point whereby the Holy Spirit clearly pointed out to me my sin, the righteousness of Jesus, and the following judgment that would happen if I refused Him as my Lord and Savior (John 16:8-11) that brought me to the point of crying out to Him to fogive me of my sin and come into my life and be my Lord and Savior. That happened on October 1, 1965, ca. 10:00pm, and it was at that point, and that point only that my spiritual eyes were opened and I understood and perceived the truth of Jesus alone being my Lord and Savior. Therefore, moving from the theoretical to the real and practical, IT IS ONLY BY THE POWER OF THE HOLY SPIRIT that our spiritual and mental eyes can be opened to see the truth of God’s Word, and it has been that way from the end of the Fall of Man up to and through this very day. Consequently, the the phrase, “it has been granted to know the mysteries of the kingdom of heaven, but to them it has not been granted” is incredibly significant because Jesus is telling this to His disciples who at that point were not yet born again, and they really didn’t comprehend what He was saying. In Luke 24:44-49, Jesus is speaking to His disciples after His resurrection, and an amazing things happens there: “Now He said to them, “These are My words which I spoke to you while I was still with you, that all things which are written about Me in the Law of Moses and the Prophets and the Psalms must be fulfilled.” 45 Then He opened their minds to understand the Scriptures, 46 and He said to them, “Thus it is written, that the Christ should suffer and rise again from the dead the third day; 47 and that repentance for forgiveness of sins should be proclaimed in His name to all the nations, beginning from Jerusalem. 48 “You are witnesses of these things. 49 “And behold, I am sending forth the promise of My Father upon you; but you are to stay in the city until you are clothed with power from on high” (Luke 24:44-49). Notice that in verse 45 Jesus “opened their minds to understand the Scriptures,” which was His supernatural work in their lives, and thus, they were enabled to testify personally of Jesus saving grace in their own lives. In John 20:19-23, we have the same account as Luke 24:44-49, but worded a bit differently: “When therefore it was evening, on that day, the first day of the week, and when the doors were shut where the disciples were, for fear of the Jews, Jesus came and stood in their midst, and said to them, “Peace be with you.” 20 And when He had said this, He showed them both His hands and His side. The disciples therefore rejoiced when they saw the Lord. 21 Jesus therefore said to them again, “Peace be with you; as the Father has sent Me, I also send you.” 22 And when He had said this, He breathed on them, and said to them, “Receive the Holy Spirit. 23 “If you forgive the sins of any, their sins have been forgiven them; if you retain the sins of any, they have been retained” (John 20:19-23). In verse 22, “He breathed on them and said, ‘Receive the Holy Spirit’.” The verb “receive” in Greek is “labete,” and it is an aorist imperative, which means, “recieve right now,” and this would clearly correspond with Jesus “opening the understanding” of the disciples in Luke 24:45. Thus, the phrase in Matthew 13:11, “it has been granted,” is of great significance because it is something that was done before these men were born again, let alone had any spiritual understanding and perception of the truth of the Scripture. And once again, the word in Greek is “dedotai,” and it is a perfect passive verb, indicating a completed action with an ongoing result and effect. Therefore, as to just “when this was granted” was granted is of genuine significance, and according to what we have been over very briefly, it would appear to me that Ephesians 1:3-14 is a key component to answering that question.
     2) With regard to your perspective that the Greek word “autos” in Ephesians 1:4, which in English is the personal pronoun, “he,” I would have to completely and unequivocally disagree with you, and I say this so affirmatively because there will be other people besides you and me reading this on this Blog, and your assessment is utterly incorrect as to the “he” there being “Adam,” regardless whether other versions have the “he” capitalized or not. As you read verse three, it is totally clear that the subject of the verse is “God,” and the “he” in verse three us without any question or discussion modifying “God” as the subject who “chose us in Him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and blameless before Him,” and the “him” here is clearly referring to Christ Jesus.
     3) Once again, with reference to your assessment of I Corinthians 2:6-16, I will have to disagree with you concerning your statement “that it was the ‘rulers’ and those who followed them and their traditions who ‘οὐ μὴ συνῆτε (ou mē sunēte)’ and ‘οὐ μὴ ἴδητε (ou mē idēte)’.” Indeed, the “rulers” of the Jews and their “followers” are unequivocally icluded in the I Corinthians 2:6-16 passage, but Jerry, this is referring to all humanity who is not born again: “For who among men knows the thoughts of a man except the spirit of the man, which is in him? Even so the thoughts of God no one knows except the Spirit of God. 12 Now we have received, not the spirit of the world, but the Spirit who is from God, that we might know the things freely given to us by God, 13 which things we also speak, not in words taught by human wisdom, but in those taught by the Spirit, combining spiritual thoughts with spiritual words. 14 But a natural man does not accept the things of the Spirit of God; for they are foolishness to him, and he cannot understand them, because they are spiritually appraised” (I Corinthians 2:11-14). The “natural man” is any man, woman, boy, or girl who has not been born again, regardless of their religious affiliation, ehtnicity, race, education or monetary status, etc.
     4) I do agree with you that the “re-birth” was not some new thing Jesus introduced, as is evidenced by His comment to Nicodemus: “Nicodemus answered and said to Him, “How can these things be?” 10 Jesus answered and said to him, ‘Are you the teacher of Israel, and do not understand these things?'” (John 3:9-10). In other words, what Jesus was saying to Nicodemus was something that Jesus said he should know. We find in Deuteronomy 10:16 the following admonition: “Circumcise then your heart, and stiffen your neck no more.” The verb “circumcise” in this verse in Hebrew is “mul,” and the more literal translation in this verse is, “And you will circumcise the foreskin of your heart, and you will cause your neck to no longer be hard and stiff.” In other words, without any question, God is here, through Moses, calling on these people to be broken over their sin, repent, and in our terms, “be born again by the Spirit of God.” What is important to remember, however, and we will see it in the next quote from Deuteronomy, that this responsibility of theirs in “circumcising the foreskin of their hearts” and “causing their neck to no longer be hard and stiff” was a supernatural work of God, wrought by His Spirit, but a work to which the people were called on to surrender to and let happen in their lives, and the following verse indicates this truth: “Moreover the LORD your God will circumcise your heart and the heart of your descendants, to love the LORD your God with all your heart and with all your soul, in order that you may live” (Deuteronomy 30:6). Here we clearly see that this “circumcision” is the supernatural work of God, by His Holy Spirit, but as Deuteronomy 10:16 clearly indicates, we as men, must choose to submit to that circumcision and the brokennes accompanying it. One other powerful passage in the Old Testament that certainly reaffirms the truth of the “re-birth of the Holy Spirit” is Ezekiel 36:22-32, but I am only going to quote verses 26-27: “Moreover, I will give you a new heart and put a new spirit within you; and I will remove the heart of stone from your flesh and give you a heart of flesh. 27 “And I will put My Spirit within you and cause you to walk in My statutes, and you will be careful to observe My ordinances” (Ezekiel 36:26-27). This is all the supernatural work of God by His Holy Spirit, and especially the phrase, “and cause you to walk in my statutes.” This is a fascinating construction in Hebrew, and literally, the Lord is stating, “And I will make you walk in the Laws which I have made,” meaning that God will sovereignly work in such a way that for those who are His children, He will cause them to come to a place of brokenness and surrender whereby they choose to walk in His truth and holiness. This can be seen in the following passge in Hebrews 12:9-11: “Furthermore, we had earthly fathers to discipline us, and we respected them; shall we not much rather be subject to the Father of spirits, and live? 10 For they disciplined us for a short time as seemed best to them, but He disciplines us for our good, that we may share His holiness. 11 All discipline for the moment seems not to be joyful, but sorrowful; yet to those who have been trained by it, afterwards it yields the peaceful fruit of righteousness’ (Hebrews 12:9-11). Thus, as you stated, the “spiritual re-birth” was something in the Old Testament, but unregenerate Jewish leaders were oblivious to its truth, as well as all Jews and Gentiles who were not “born again.”
     5) With regard to Predestination, the biblical truth of this important doctrine IN NO WAY abrogates man’s responsibility and accountability to choose to either accept or reject Christ, but rather it subsumes both of those essential truths within its scope.
     This has been a very long answer to your question, and I hope it will be helpful to you, as well as to others who may read it.

     God bless you,

     Justin T. Alfred

     • Jerry S. says

       June 15, 2012 at 8:18 pm

       Oh my, you honor me by taking so much of your time and effort to respond. I’ll try my best to keep pace and because there is so much written I will continue to respond to points that jump out to me in the order of their being written.

       “based on their own self-deification, regardless of what religious context they are in.” Yes, regardless of who we are and where we are from we are all subject to the effects of “the fall” and in need of salvation. There has been a plan from the beginning, Gen 3:15, Gen 9:26, Gen 12:3. As gentile believers, we cannot disregard the religious context so great a salvation comes to us from. Everyone’s salvation, regardless if the mystery is understood or not, “is of the Jews” Jhn 4:22. Consequently, understanding it apart from Hebrew concepts would be “making up their own, relative standard for “good and evil,”. As I read the gospel accounts, it was the Jewish Leaders that Jesus was consistently arguing with not the Jewish people. The leaders of the day were the appointed shepherds that were neglecting the sheep, sheep being the Jewish people, thus Mat. 15: 1-14 then Jhn. 21:15-17, the Jewish ambassadors are now the appointed shepherds. The disciples did not comprehend what Jesus was saying because He started speaking in stories and riddles which was different from the clear teaching He was giving them up until this point, thus the question why, Mat. 13:10. There are definitely lessons to be learned beyond what is written, but I try to avoid getting too mystical and take what is written at face value.

       Eph.1:4, you may very well be correct in that your command of English sentence structure is well beyond mine and your concern of those reading YOUR blog is commendable. Just who is the “us” being spoken of here? Jews or gentiles? For me, based on the concept of a “messiah” being a Hebrew one and Paul being a Jew, I would lean towards Jews.

       1Cor. 2:6, 8 – I agree with you, all mankind. My attempt to be concise may have leaded you to think otherwise. My point is always that the Jewish leaders and their traditions that turned their back on the Father are those who strayed, not the Jewish people. Remember the “re-birth” is a fulfillment of Jer. 31:33-34. A covenant made with Israel, kept by and put into force by and offered to all mankind by Messiah Yeshuah.

       It is getting late here, thank you so very much for this opportunity.
       J.

9. Daniel L M'mionki says

   June 19, 2012 at 2:01 pm

   Thank you, Justin.

   I am looking forward to your article on the sower. It has become, to me, one of the most fascinating parts of scripture.

   God bless,

   Daniel.