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Spurgeon: It Is God Who Justifies

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The following is taken from Spurgeon’s classic book All of Grace—an earnest word for those seeking salvation and God—available at the BLB bookstore.

Who shall bring a charge against God’s elect? It is God who justifies.
Romans 8:33

You cannot justify yourself

A wonderful thing it is, this being justified, or made just. If we had never broken the laws of God we should not have needed it, for we should have been just in ourselves. He who has all his life done the things which he ought to have done, and has never done anything which he ought not to have done, is justified by the law. But you, dear reader, are not of that sort, I am quite sure. You have too much honesty to pretend to be without sin, and therefore you need to be justified. Now, if you justify yourself, you will simply be a self-deceiver. Therefore do not attempt it. It is never worth while.

If you ask your fellow mortals to justify you, what can they do? You can make some of them speak well of you for small favors, and others will backbite you for less. Their judgment is not worth much.

Our text says, “It is God who justifies,” and this is a deal more to the point. It is an astonishing fact, and one that we ought to consider with care. Come and see.

Justifying sinners was God’s idea

In the first place, nobody else but God would ever have thought of justifying those who are guilty. They have lived in open rebellion; they have done evil with both hands; they have gone from bad to worse; they have turned back to sin even after they have smarted for it, and have therefore for a while been forced to leave it. They have broken the law, and trampled on the gospel. They have refused proclamations of mercy, and have persisted in ungodliness. How can they be forgiven and justified? Their fellowmen, despairing of them, say, “They are hopeless cases.” Even Christians look upon them with sorrow rather than with hope. But not so their God. He, in the splendor of his electing grace having chosen some of them before the foundation of the world, will not rest till He has justified them, and made them to be accepted in the Beloved. Is it not written, Moreover whom He predestined, these He also called; whom He called, these He also justified; and whom He justified, these He also glorified” (Romans 8:30)? Thus you see there are some whom the Lord resolves to justify: why should not you and I be of the number?

None but God would ever have thought of justifying me. I am a wonder to myself. None but God would have ever thought of justifying such a man as Saul the persecutor; but the Lord God is glorious in grace.

Justifying sinners is God’s work

But, even if anybody had thought of justifying the ungodly, none but God could have done it. It is quite impossible for any person to forgive offenses which have not been committed against himself. A person has greatly injured you; you can forgive him, and I hope you will; but no third person can forgive him apart from you. If the wrong is done to you, the pardon must come from you. If we have sinned against God, it is in God’s power to forgive; for the sin is against Himself. That is why David says, in the fifty-first Psalm: “Against You, You only, have I sinned, And done this evil in Your sight”; for then God, against whom the offense is committed, can put the offense away.  None but the great God, against whom we have committed the sin, can blot out that sin; let us, therefore, see that we go to Him and seek mercy at His hands.

God justifies sinners in a manner that is divinely perfect

Only God can justify the ungodly; but He can do it to perfection. He casts our sins behind His back, He blots them out; He says that though they be sought for, they shall not be found. With no other reason for it but His own infinite goodness, He has prepared a glorious way by which He can make scarlet sins as white as snow, and remove our transgressions from us as far as the east is from the west. He says, “I will not remember your sins. ” He goes the length of making an end of sin. One of old called out in amazement, “Who is a God like You, Pardoning iniquity And passing over the transgression of the remnant of His heritage? He does not retain His anger forever, Because He delights in mercy” (Micah 7:18).

The Lord is a Great Forgiver

Friend, the Lord can blot out all your sins. I make no shot in the dark when I say this. “All manner of sin and of blasphemy shall be forgiven unto men.” Though you are steeped up to your throat in crime, He can with a word remove the defilement, and say, “I will, be thou clean.” The Lord is a great forgiver.

“I believe in the Forgiveness of Sins.” Do You? He can even at this hour pronounce the sentence, “Thy sins be forgiven thee; go in peace;” and if He do this, no power in Heaven, or earth, or under the earth, can put you under suspicion, much less under wrath. Do not doubt the power of Almighty love. You could not forgive your fellow man had he offended you as you have offended God; but you must not measure God’s corn with your bushel; His thoughts and ways are as much above yours as the heavens are high above the earth.

“Well,” say you, “it would be a great miracle if the Lord were to pardon me.” Just so. It would be a supreme miracle, and therefore He is likely to do it; for He does “great things and unsearchable” which we looked not for.

Look to Him and be saved

I venture to say that a sinner justified by God stands on even a surer footing than a righteous man justified by his works, if such there be. We could never be surer that we had done enough works; conscience would always be uneasy lest, after all, we should come short, and we could only have the trembling verdict of a fallible judgment to rely upon; but when God himself justifies, and the Holy Spirit bears witness thereto by giving us peace with God, why then we feel that the matter is sure and settled, and we enter into rest. No tongue can tell the depth of that calm which comes over the soul which has received the peace of God which passes all understanding.

Comments

  3. Jon 2:9 “But I will sacrifice to You With the voice of thanksgiving; I will pay what I have vowed. Salvation [is] of the LORD.”

  4. Thank you for the post! Amen! Our God is sooooo very good to us!

    Thoughts on Grace
    In 1517 Roman Catholic priest, Martin Luther who founded the Lutheran Church in Germany, learned that salvation was by grace or unmerited favor and not by works lest anyone should boast (Eph 2:8-9). It affected him so greatly that he posted 95 thesis on the door of a church in Wittenberg, Germany.

    Thus began the reformation and the Protestant movement in the Christian churches. The Holy Spirit lead Martin Luther and continues to lead the churches into new truths all the time like re-revealing the doctrine of water baptism by emersion, not by sprinkling of infants, and the doctrine that church leaders are able to marry (1 ti 3:2, Tts 1:6), and the Baptism in Holy Spirit with the evidence of speaking in other tongues (Act 10:44046, 19:6) and many more truths from God’s Word that were lost during the Dark Ages.

    That’s why they are called Dark Ages because the churches lost a lot of light/revelation during this period in history.

    When someone comes along and pays off all your debts and then says you do not owe them anything you tend to really like and even love that person. Wouldn’t you agree?

    I love our God; “Yahweh” is his name forever (Ex 3:14-15, Ps 83:18, Ex 6:3) Because He is so gracious to us! So full of love and mercy is He toward his creation that He was willing to allow His son, Jesus, to die for us so we can boldly come before the “throne of grace” and make our requests know to our Father (Hbr 4:16).

    Thank you again for the post,

    Much Agape,

    Brother Andybob

    • And the Word became flesh and dwelt among us, and we beheld His glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father, full of grace and truth. John bore witness of Him and cried out, saying, “This was He of whom I said, ‘He who comes after me is preferred before me, for He was before me.’ ”And of His fullness we have all received, and grace for grace. For the law was given through Moses, but grace and truth came through Jesus Christ. No one has seen God at any time. The only begotten Son, who is in the bosom of the Father, He has declared Him. (John 1:14-18)

      We would have been dead in our sins as the law has no saving power (Romans 7:6). Praise God that truth and grace were given to us through Christ our Lord in order for us to receive salvation by His substitutionary death.

      Another great resource available at BLB is the devotional, Day By Day By Grace (http://www.blueletterbible.org/devotionals/dbdbg/view.cfm).

      Blessings,
      MAC

  5. LORD JESUS DO WE JUSTIFY OURSELVES BY DOING WHAT YOU
    INSTRUCT US TO DO OR BY IGNORING YOUR WAYS YOUR TRUTH
    AND YOUR LIFE

    WHEN WE COME TO PRAYER O LORD AND ASK YOU FOR YOUR HELP
    (AS WE ARE INSTRUCTED)TO DO THE THINGS (GOOD WORKS)THAT
    YOU WANT US TO DO ARE WE JUSTIFYING OURSELVES OR ACCEPTING
    THAT YOU ARE OUR ONE AND ONLY LORD OF LORDS AND KING OF KINGS

    Luke 19:26
    For I say unto you that unto everyone which hath shall be given
    and from him that hath not even that he hath shall be taken away
    from him

    Luke 19:27
    BUT THOSE MINE ENEMIES which would not that I should reign over them bring hither and slay them before me

    Psalm 119:139
    My zeal hath consumed me
    Because mine enemies have forgotten thy words

    Acts 13:10
    And said all full of all subtilty and mischief
    THOU CHILD OF THE devil—THOU ENEMY OF ALL RIGHTEOUSNESS
    wilt thou not cease to pervert the —RIGHT WAYS OF THE LORD

    1 John 3:10
    In this the children of GOD are MANIFEST
    AND THE CHILDREN OF THE devil
    WHOSOEVER DOETH NOT RIGHTEOUSNESS IS NOT OF GOD
    neither he that loveth not his brother

    Proverbs 8:8
    All the words of MY mouth are in righteousness
    There is nothing froward or perverse in them

    Proverbs 8:9
    They are all plain to him that understanndeth
    And right to them that find knowledge

    Romans 10:3
    For they being ignorant of GODS RIGHTEOUSNESS
    AND GOING ABOUT TO ESTABLISH THEIR OWN RIGHTEOUSNESS
    —HAVE NOT SUBMITTED—THEMSELVES UNTO THE RIGHTEOUSNESS OF GOD

    ————REMINDER ————
    ALL MY WORDS ARE IN RIGHTEOUSNESS
    ALL THY COMMANDMENTS ARE RIGHTEOUSNESS
    —THE RIGHTEOUSNESS OF THY TESTIMONIES IS EVERLASTING—

    James 4:7
    Submit yourselves therefore to GOD
    RESIST THE devil AND he WILL FLEE FROM YOU

    2 Timothy 2:12
    IF we suffer we shall also reign with HIM
    If we deny HIM HE also will deny us

    Philippians 1:29
    For unto you it is given in the behalf of CHRIST
    NOT ONLY TO BELIEVE ON HIM
    BUT ALSO TO SUFFER FOR HIS SAKE

    1 Peter 4:1&2
    For as much then as CHRIST hath suffered for us in the flesh
    ARM YOURSELVES LIKEWISE WITH THE SAME MIND
    For he that hath suffered in the flesh hath ceased from sin
    (2) That he NO LONGER SHOULD LIVE —THE REST OF HIS TIME—
    IN THE FLESH–to the lusts of men but to the —WILL OF GOD—

    Hebrews 10:36
    For you have need of patience that after AFTER you have done the will of GOD YOU MIGHT RECEIVE THE PROMISE

    Acts 5:20
    GO STAND AND SPEAK IN THE TEMPLE TO THE
    PEOPLE ALL THE WORDS OF THIS LIFE

    Acts 5:29
    Then Peter and the other apostles answered and said
    WE OUGHT RATHER TO OBEY GOD RATHER THAN MEN

    1 John 2:27
    But the anointing which you have received of HIM abideth in you
    AND YOU NEED NOT THAT ANY MAN TEACH YOU
    but as the same anointing teacheth you of all things–AND IS TRUTH AND IS NO LIE– AND EVEN AS IT HATH TAUGHT YOU —
    YE SHALL ABIDE IN HIM

    Matthew 23:8
    But be ye not called Rabbi
    FOR ONE IS YOUR MASTER EVEN CHRIST
    —–AND ALL YE ARE BRETHREN—–

    John 7:17
    IF ANY MAN WILL DO HIS WILL
    he shall know of the doctrine
    whether it be of GOD or whether
    I speak of MYSELF

    John 7:18
    HE THAT SPEAKETH OF HIMSELF SEEKETH HIS OWN GLORY
    BUT HE THAT SEEKETH HIS GLORY THAT SENT HIM
    THE SAME IS TRUE AND NO UNRIGHTEOUSNESS IS IN HIM

    John 12:49
    For I have not spoken of MYSELF
    But the FATHER which sent ME HE gave ME a commandment
    WHAT I SHOULD SAY AND WHAT I SHOULD SPEAK

    Isaiah 2:22
    Cease ye from man whose breath is in his nostrils
    FOR WHEREIN IS HE TO BE ACCOUNTED OF

    Luke 6:46
    AND WHY CALL YE ME LORD LORD
    AND DO NOT THE THINGS WHICH I SAY

    Matthew 5:20
    FOR I SAY UNTO YOU
    THAT EXCEPT YOUR RIGHTEOUSNESS SHALL EXCEED THE RIGHTEOUSNESS
    OF THE SCRIBES AND PHARISEES
    YOU SHALL IN —NO CASE—ENTER INTO THE KINGDOM OF HEAVEN

    LOVING THE LORD JESUS CHRIST

    • Mr. Morrow please stop shouting. Most of what you say is true but there is this problem – We cannot do it. If we could then Jesus died in vain. The best your effort can produce is filthy rags. But ‘in Christ’ God sees His son who is perfect, righteous, holy, His works are miraculous and so are ours. Every sin is paid for past, present and future. You died with Jesus on the cross,your old nature is dead! You are alive in Christ a new creation.
      Let me ask you something, do you disown your children if they go to the pig pen? God does not and he wrote a parable about it. Can you change
      your DNA because you don’t like your parents anymore? No you match their dna no matter what you do or think. And then there is always the issue of being born again. Can you really get born again over and over. And what does ‘incorruptible’ mean if it can be corrupted? You and I are born of incorruptible seed – Jesus – Christ in you your hope of glory. You were born from above, your citizenship is in heaven, you are made of heavens DNA. This is what rightly descerning the Lord’s body is all about. He paid, he rose, he lives – and so do you. May the Lord bless you and KEEP you by the Lord shine his face upon you and give you peace.

      • Hi Sue
        Merely emphasizing
        Are not all GODS words truth

        Isaiah 64:4
        For since the beginning of the world men have not heard nor perceived by the ear neither hath the eye seen O GOD beside thee
        What HE hath prepared for him that waiteth for HIM

        Isaiah 64:5
        THOU MEETEST HIM THAT REJOICETH AND WORKETH RIGHTEOUSNESS THOSE THAT REMEMBER THEE IN THY WAYS
        Behold THOU art wroth–for we have sinned–in those is continuance–and we shall be saved

        Isaiah64:6
        But we are all as an unclean thing and all–OUR–righteousnesses are as filthy rags
        And we all do fade as a leaf and our iniquities
        like the wind have taken us away

        Please see other posts on righteousness

        LOVING the LORD

      • Sue Ellen,

        I missed your post Sunday, so I’m not sure if you will even read this, but I thought I would take a chance. Your initial comments are scriptural because we can neither save ourselves initially, daily, or finally, and any works we do to glorify God have been thoroughly furnished (Eph. 2:10, II Tim. 3:17). You are right. We cannot do it.

        Unfortunately, however, your second comments that imply that believers cannot lose their salvation are not scriptural which, ironically, was what several of us discussed throughout the day and which Steve suggested that you read. It is true that the prodigal son came back to his father, but this doesn’t mean that people cannot lose their salvation. It means that even when we sin or even backslide (for a time), God still welcomes us back into the fold. There is a point, however, when either continued apathy or purposed rejection toward God’s Word will result in a true, born-again believer forfeiting his or her salvation, a fact that is one of the most thoroughly documented truths found in the Bible.

        I would like to briefly address some of your points. Many times the relationship between earthly parents and their children is used to explain the relationship between our heavenly Father and His children, and most of the time, the comparison is valid. However, the analogy fails when discussing the relative births. Our birth to physical parents is one in which we had no input, so nothing can change that relationship. However, our birth into God’s family is a spiritual birth that came about by a conscious decision made on our part. We were given free will by God, and just as we can freely choose to enter God’s family, we can freely choose to leave it.

        I’m not exactly sure what you meant by asking whether we can get born again over and over, but as Hebrews 5:11-6:20 illustrates, once a person falls away, there is no sacrifice left because that person, by failing to grow in the grace and knowledge of Jesus Christ as commanded in II Peter 3:18 has rejected, by his or her actions, the sacrifice that was freely given once. In other words, a believer cannot continue to reject the true meaning and personal application of Christ’s sacrifice by sowing to the flesh throughout his or her saved life and then think that at the end that it is all systems go merely because he or she doesn’t want to spend eternity in hell. Again, Scripture is replete with proofs of God’s children losing their salvation. Even a casual reading of the OT will reveal numerous and graphic examples of this very thing.

        Finally, with regard to I Peter 1:23, you are correct when you say that the “incorruptible seed” cannot be “corrupted,” but that is referring to the seed of God, not us. While it is true that we are no longer governed by a sin nature, we still have the ability to sin, and if a person continually quenches the leading of the Holy Spirit as well as continually refusing to repent, that person will eventually corrupt himself or herself. That is why there are so very many warnings given to believers such as the one from James: “Draw nigh to God, and he will draw nigh to you. Cleanse [your] hands, [ye] sinners; and purify [your] hearts, [ye] double minded” (4:8). The bottom line is, If it weren’t possible to lose one’s salvation, God wouldn’t have seen fit to fill His Word with so many warnings.

        The doctrine of eternal security, which is what you are suggesting, is not scriptural and, as Andybob wrote in his post, “The doctrine of predestination is a damnable teaching that has hurt countless Christians from moving on to a deeper walk with God and moving on to experiential perfection. They have no incentive to move on in God.” Sadly, the church at large has failed to correct this “damnable teaching.”

        We are given a great promise in God’s Word: “Ask, and it shall be given you; seek, and ye shall find; knock, and it shall be opened unto you” (Matt. 7:7). As a starting point in your study, Andybob, Teresa, Maciek, and I have addressed this very topic in Sunday’s posts.

        As you study, I pray that God will bless you richly by giving you light to see and understand the truth of His Word.

        Your sister in Christ~
        Barbara

        • hello barbara,

          hope all is well. The reason I am responding is because of your error you hold to teaching that salvation can be lost. I of course already know that it is impossible. Let me ask you a question if I might. How obedient must one be as a saved, born again child of God to keep their salvation? When does the person know exactly when they lose salvation? Also who in the universe brings these charges against God’s elect? God is not doubleminded as we are. He is not justifying, unjustifying etc. All of you need to think this through and stop looking over the passages that clearly state that its God who saves and God who keeps saved. The Holy Spirit that came into my body when I was 15 is still their and will be forever.

          FZ

          Barbara, its not by works before or after conversion, period. It is a gift. how can you be good enough to earn a gift that you could never pay for and after you hasve it you can still never pay for it?? How does that work, it doesn’t.

          • Hi Frank.
            It is good to read the Bible and understand its teaching because it is teaching of God. It is good to listen to whole message and do not separate single sentences from the speach because than we can realy prove everything we want but most certenly cannot understand message of the speaker. And Paul Apostol of Christ is a speaker here in letter to Romans and sais to them whom he calls brothers Rom 8:12-14 that if they live according to the flesh they will die! Than he sais that if they live according to the Spirit they will live! Later he continue his thought and teach that they who live according to the Spirit suffer, of course because of righteousness because they suffer with Christ Rom 8:17. And Christ suffered because of righteousness. And than Paul teach them who live according to the Spirit and because of that they suffer with Christ how to survive this suffering and why we suffer. So he teaches about hope and fullfilment of time and so on Rom 8:18-30. And than he close this teaching with the piece of poetry because as I understand Rom 8:31-39 is poetry. But notice please that this bit of poetry in which is that sentence Rom 8:33 which you use so eagerly is dirrected to them who suffer because they walk according to the Spirit. And the promise in it is that they will survive this suffering because of grace of God, because they belong to Him. Look to verse Rom 8:36 This people to whom it is spoken are dying because of God! Theese are not people climing to be born again and living according to flesh. Because they will most certainly die! Like Apostle Paul said. These are people who are conformed to the image of Christ Rom 8:29! We have to read and understand whole scripture not only separate sentences. Please read carefully what has been spoken in this conversation and please understand and be saved.
            My best regards.

          • Hi Frank~

            It’s good to hear from you. I am well, thank you. I hope you are the same. Many times when I bring up the topic that salvation can be lost, the person who opposes this viewpoint begins his or her defense with the assumption that I am talking about normal, everyday Christians who, for some reason, have lost their salvation. Your line of questions reveal that you are one of these people, so let me explain because there is a crucial distinction between these people and the people to whom I am referring.

            While Scripture very much does support the idea that one can lose his or her salvation, I want to first clarify what I don’t mean by that. First, one doesn’t lose salvation by sinning. We all sin and will continue to do so until we die or until Christ comes, but we know that when we do, we have “an advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous” (I Jn. 2:1b). Secondly, I also don’t mean that just because a person backslides for a time that the person automatically loses his salvation because that is one of the points of the prodigal son (Lk. 15). However, I do believe that these two things, when allowed to go unchecked, can ultimately lead to a person losing his or her salvation because they illustrate a total lack of growth in the Lord, and He is coming for a spotless bride/church (Eph. 5:27, II Pet.1:19). Thirdly, the word that is pretty much always used to explain the phenomenon of going from a saved to an unsaved condition is “lose.” Although the word “lose” has many biblical and secular meanings, sometimes the word can suggest an action of carelessness akin to losing one’s keys or wallet, and when applied to salvation, it might suggest that one can, though some accidental or unintentional action, lose his or her salvation. Fourthly, and this is something that I believe I discussed with both you and PB, I don’t believe that our initial salvation or final salvation is based upon human works although we are warned in James 2 that our works (Eph. 2:10, II Tim. 3:17) do reveal whether we are truly saved.

            You are right when you say that salvation is a gift, but it is only our initial salvation to which this applies, not our final salvation. No where does the Bible say that our final entrance into heaven is a free gift. Even in the OT, although God had given His people the promised land as a ‘gift,’ there was much work and fighting that needed to be done in order to fully possess Canaan, and it is exactly the same for us. That is why we were given this account, to learn from it (Rom. 15:4). That is why we are told to “work out [our] own salvation with fear and trembling” (Phl. 2:12). There is work to be done, in us and through us. There is sacrifice to be made, not only for our personal growth but for the growth of the body and for an unsaved world. There is no way that a person who was truly saved according to John 3:3 but who sat around without moving beyond the fundamental teachings (Heb. 5:11-6:20) of Christianity or growing in the grace and knowledge of our Lord Jesus (II Pet. 3:18) is going to inherit the kingdom of God. It just isn’t going to happen. The argument that I am usually met with at this point to support the idea that people cannot lose their salvation or to explain who the people are who are leaving the church in the last days is that these people weren’t really saved to begin with. The problem with this explanation, however, is that it is totally unscriptural. As you know, all truth claims must be support by the Word, and there is not one shred of biblical evidence that supports that claim. It is pure conjecture, which I’m sure you’ll agree isn’t much to hang one’s eternal destiny upon.

            As I have written in several dialogues over these past months, I actually studied out the question of whether believers can lose their salvation, and the word which governed my study was “reconcile.” All relevant verses must be reconciled to arrive at biblical doctrine. As I have also written many times, it’s not that I can find a verse to support my opinion or that you can find a verse to support yours because all we end up with, then, is a game of scriptural volleyball, not the eternal truth that God has put forth. Also, what else must be understood is that although there are literally scores of examples and explanations that attest to this truth, it only takes one.

            Before I give some examples, I want to just explain again that, although it is God, alone, who saves, we do not check our free will at the door when we become saved. The same free will we exercise in making decisions concerning every other matter in our lives is the same free will we use to choose whether to continue to follow Christ or not to. That is the integrity of God’s plan of salvation. We are in a covenant relationship with God, meaning that we are one of two parties responsible for keeping the covenant, that certain requirements must be fulfilled by each party irrespective of the other party’s obligation. Verses such as Matthew 28:20; John 6:37-40, 10:27-29; II Peter 2:9, and Jude 1:24 are not given to prove that believers cannot lose their salvation; they are given as an assurance to us that God will be faithful as far as His responsibility to the covenant is concerned.

            As I wrote, it only takes one example to disprove eternal security. If you read through this day’s posts, you will find many of them, written by me and other people. You must reconcile each one of them to your premise to have a supportable doctrine. Here are just a few more to begin your study:

            Matthew 24:13
            In chapter 24, Jesus is telling His disciples of the events that are going to precede His second coming and says that those believers who “endure [remain, abide, persevere] unto the end” will “be saved.” Because nonbelievers won’t be enduring anything with regard to the kingdom of God, the implication, then, is that there will be believers during this time who don’t endure and will, consequently, not “be saved.”

            Matthew 25:14-30 (Parable of the Talents)
            Because this parable refers to the kingdom of Heaven, we understand the “man” to be the Lord and the “servants” to be believers (v. 1). As lord, the man gave each of his servants a certain number of talents, either five or two or one, “according to his own ability” (v. 15). The servants who were given five and two talents each did something with what the lord had given them (v. 16-17), and they were given additional things because they had been faithful (v. 20-23). However, the servant who had been given one talent did nothing with what the lord had entrusted him (v. 18), and the lord called him a “wicked and lazy servant” (v. 26) and took away what little he had (v. 29). Now, if this were the end of the story, one could possibly conclude that the wicked servant just lost some rewards; however, verse 30 is very clear that what the wicked servant lost was his salvation: “And cast ye the unprofitable servant into outer darkness: there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth.” We know that, in Heaven, there isn’t going to be any “weeping and gnashing of teeth,” a phrase that is used five times in the NT (Matt. 8:12, 22:13, 24:51, 25:30, and Lk. 13:28) and always refers to eternal punishment. This same thought is also illustrated in Matthew 13:42 and 50 where it is written, “wailing and gnashing of teeth” because the wicked have been cast into the “furnace of fire.” Terms and phrases such as “weeping,” “wailing,” “gnashing of teeth,” “outer darkness,” and “furnace of fire” are not descriptors of loss of reward but of salvation.

            Luke 9:62
            In this passage (vv. 57-62), Jesus is responding to the concerns of two disciples who have declared their loyalty to Christ (vv. 57, 61) but who have not counted the cost of discipleship. We know from the word “disciple” that these men are saved and, yet, verse 62 clearly puts across the point that those people who have begun the course (“put his hand to the plow”) but who then put the cares and concerns of the world (“looking back”) second to the cares and concerns of the kingdom are not “fit for the kingdom of God.” The word “fit” means “ready for use, fit, well adapted” and literally means, “well placed” (euthetos, Strong’s, G2111). In other words, if one’s heart is not weaned from this evil world, then it will not be prepared or able to enter into God’s heavenly world.

            Luke 13:6-9
            In this short parable, we read of the importance of believers bearing fruit for the kingdom and that those people who don’t, although being given multiple chances, will be cut down. Being “cut out, cut off” (Thayer’s Lexicon) from the vineyard is to be removed, metaphorically, from the body of Christ, which is loss of salvation, not of reward.

            John 15:1-6
            In this passage, Jesus is using the analogy of a vineyard to describe the relationship between believers and Himself. We understand from several references, especially verse 5, that Jesus is “the vine” and believers are “the branches.” In verses 4-5, Jesus says that believers cannot bear fruit unless they abide in Him, but this passage is clear that not all branches do continue to abide in Him and that there are consequences. In verse 2, He speaks of two types of branches that are “in me [Jesus],” believers who bear fruit and believers who don’t. Those branches that do bear fruit are pruned by God in order to bear more fruit. Those branches that do not bear fruit are “taken away,” which verse six explains as being “…cast forth as a branch, and is withered; and men gather them, and cast [them] into the fire, and they are burned.” This is loss of salvation, a truth that further underscored by the fact that the word “abide,” is used nine times in chapter 15, four times alone in verses four and six as a warning to believers so that they will not be “taken away” and “burned.”

            I Timothy 4:1
            This verse says that people will “depart from the faith.” To depart means to withdraw, desert, fall away, shun (aphistemi, Strong’s G868). One cannot “depart from the faith” unless one, first, has the faith. These people did believe, but they departed because they considered, believed and, then, followed false doctrines.

            Revelation 2:1-3:22, Letters to the Angels of the Seven Churches in Asia
            In the Book of Revelation, Jesus Christ Himself reveals some of the most compelling verses in the Bible to support the idea that one can, indeed, lose his or her salvation. In the summation of each of these seven letters, all written to believing churches, a consequence is written in either the positive or the negative, and each one is based upon the condition that the church “overcometh” something. According to Strong’s Concordance, for a person (or church) to overcome, it means to emerge victorious by holding fast to his faith, even unto death, against the power of foes, temptations, and persecutions (nikao, G3529). What Jesus is telling each church, except Philadelphia, is that it needs to “repent” from a particular sin and that all churches are to “overcometh” something, which would refer to the flesh and the world. As you study, please note that the outcome of each church’s response to Jesus’ criticism and call to repent and to overcome is a specific aspect of salvation, not of reward.

            ~The Persecuted Church must repent and overcome, or it will be hurt by the second death.
            ~The Compromising Church must repent and overcome so that it will receive hidden manna and white stone.
            ~The Corrupt Church must repent and overcome, or it won’t receive the power given to all of the saved.
            ~The Dead Church is Sardis must repent and overcome, or it will have its name blotted out of the Book of Life.
            ~The Faithful Church in Philadelphia must overcome, or it won’t become a part of God’s holy city.
            ~The Lukewarm Church in Laodicea must repent and overcome, or it will not wear garments of salvation.

            Taking all of these examples into consideration, we can see that Scripture shows that people can lose their salvation because they either drift away (apathy) or walk away (rejection). The question, then, is not about knowing they have lost their salvation because neither of these groups of people cared enough about their salvation to prevent them from reaching these extremes.

            There are many other examples that can be given, but there is enough information to study in this post and the other posts. Once you have reconciled these examples to your opinion, we can move on to others if you like.

            God bless you~
            Barbara

          • Hi Barbara
            I pretty much agree with this post above. We can see people in the Bible who sinned and lost they salvation. There is Cain as the first example than we can see them who were drowned in flood, we have Sodom and Gomorah, we have Ezaw we have son’s of Aaron, Korah and his band. Lot of examples to learn what not to do. We also have one sinner who even if he did very bad sin he was forgiven which is David. There are more, their prayers we can read in Psalms. We can see strugles of Jeremiah or one famous Job and his friends. Lot of examples to learn how to discern sin for death and sin to be forgiven. Much to learn. So I agree with you that not every one who walk with God and sin lost his salvation. For me one of signs that person didn’t sin for death is repentance. If we repent and come back to God He forgives. Like Psalm 51. The other mark is open rebelion to God. I do not remember if such was forgiven. Sin because of weekness is forgiven, sin because of lack of knowledge, seen because of fear. Don’t remember if hatred being fulfilled with kill was forgiven. And it is truth we are all sinners and every one of us need forgiveness and we have it if we repent. Then we have this promisses, we have Blood of Christ and we come and we are washed or we have to wash our robes in this blood and I understand that it is a process, and we have much to learn and to fill our inner parts with this Spirit of Christ takes some time. But I do not understand why you have said this:” We all sin and will continue to do so until we die or until Christ comes” What make you think that way? I realy apreciate your patience with us Barbara. Thank you very much for this.

          • Maciek, Your exegesis of Romans 8 is quite frankly wrong. Paul is talking about physical death not spiritual death. You are jumping to a conclusion 30 years ago I used to jump to as well. The reference is the sin unto death which only believers can commit. Juxtapose 1 Cor. 5 1-5 for a wonderful example also 1 Cor. 11:30. God always extinguishes physical life for unrepentent sin in the life of a Christian. Also let me address Barabara as well here, A superficial reading of the Bible can render just about any result you would like as Barbara knows with Mormonism (although they add their doctrines and covenants, book of mormon etc.) I have studied all this in Bible college as well as reading soooo many theology books in my pursuit of the truth. Romans 8 29-30 absolutely gurantees the final glory of all those who are saved. Completely guarantees it, there are no warnings or caveats and no one falls through any cracks so to speak in these verses. Your views, both of them lean very closely to works salvation which in Galatians is very scary to me. Sorry you are both wrong concerning this and I could offer you good sound exegesis to the passages that persuade you to this mindset but the years have proven it does not work to persuade any one. Barbara if you recall I never responded to your Heb 6 thoughts from prior chats. Anyways Keep studying and witnessing and winning folks to Jesus, oh thats right, you cant be sure any one you win will make it because you are not even sure you guys will.I think some people probably believe that they can loose it even when they get to heaven ha ha.

          • Hi Maciek~

            Thank you for your post. You are very kind in your comments to me, but I want to clarify something. This isn’t about my being patient with anyone. It is about all of us believers coming together and sharing what we know. Each of us brings something to the table for the good of the body, and I am just one part of that. I also come away with new insights because of you and the other people. That’s what makes this blog so wonderful!

            I think the idea that we need to come away with with regard to sin and salvation is that all sin has to be forgiven (Heb. 9:22), and all sin can be forgiven (I Jn. 1:7) with the exception of blasphemy against the Holy Spirit (Matt. 12:31). It was the same in the OT, but God’s grace and forgiveness only extends to His people. I know you know this, but you wrote, “We can see people in the Bible who sinned and lost [their] salvation” and mentioned the people who died in the flood as well as those who perished in Sodom and Gomorrah. These two groups didn’t lose their salvation because they never had salvation to begin with. They died in their sin because they weren’t God’s people. With regard to Cain, we see God’s mercy when He put a mark upon him so that no one would kill him (Gen. 4:15), something He wouldn’t have done if Cain had lost his salvation. With regard to Esau, there is nothing that would indicate that he lost his salvation. He did give up his birthright, but this has to do with the portion of his father’s inheritance reserved for the first-born son and has nothing whatsoever to do with salvation. Esau went on to have a normal life and even reconciled with Jacob. In the OT, when someone lost his or her salvation, it happened very suddenly as with Nadab and Abihu (Lev. 10:1-2). I believe the only exception was the children of Israel who wandered in the wilderness for forty years without ever entering the Promised Land (Num. 14:26-35, Heb. 3:7-12). David, of course, is the prime example of when our sin meets God’s grace through our repentance.

            You asked what I meant by my comment that “We all sin and will continue to do so until we die or Christ comes.” As long as we are housed in these temporary abodes, in these tents of flesh, we will have to do battle with the selfish desires of our flesh. As I John 1:8 and 10 say, “If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us….If we say that we have not sinned, we make him a liar, and his word is not in us.” Is this isn’t what you meant, let me know so that I can clarify it.

            I love your posts because they always bring everything back to our inner man and how that inner man needs to seek after God’s holiness which can only be accomplished through learning, prayer, and repentance. That you have a heart of flesh for the Lord comes through in your words and insights.

            Thank you for your sharing with us!
            God bless you~
            Barbara

          • Frank~

            Wow. Color me surprised. I wouldn’t have thought it possible that you would pull the same stunt you did with me the last time we discussed doctrine. Why do you persist in engaging people in a dialogue that you have no intentions of finishing or really of even starting? I don’t mind spending my time writing answers, but if I’m going to do it, then I expect that my answers will receive at least some consideration, especially because I was answering questions that YOU asked. I don’t even mind being told that I am wrong as long as there is relevant Scripture and a reasonable explanation to tell me why, but you have yet to do that either.

            Yes, I do recall that you never responded to my thoughts on Hebrews 6, and its the same reason that you didn’t respond to even one of the numerous examples that I gave this time. It’s because you can’t. Anyone who has studied as much as you claim you have should be able to easily give a well-reasoned answer with scriptural support, not merely offer your ridicule about others and write the words that you “could offer…good sound exegesis to the passages.” In addition, to imply that what I have written is the result of a “superficial reading of the Bible” further illustrates that you didn’t even read, let alone study, what I wrote, so you have no right offering any assessment of it or of the writings of the other people on this forum. Finally, if you had read what I wrote, you would have seen that I actually addressed your claim on Romans 8:29-30 that there are no “caveats.”

            You can call me and Maciek and all the other participants on this blog “wrong” all day long, Frank, but if you’re going to do that, you need to show us exactly why. Maybe all of us aren’t always right on every issue, but at least we have the heart to seek God’s truth, the love for each other to discuss that truth, and the guts to admit when we don’t understand something, and we do so without playing games.

            Because this is the second time that you have done this to me, I have to assume that there is something wrong, so I will continue to hold you up in prayer. However, do not ever ask me to answer any questions again.

            Barbara

          • Hi Barbara
            I will go straight to the matter. I called people of flood that they lost their salvation because their salvation was in ark of Noah and Noah preached them this salvation and they ignored it. So in my view they did have salvation offered yet they didn’t respond and in this way they lost it. The same was with Sodom and Gomorah because they had righteous Lot between them and they didn’t repent like city of Ninive which repented on Jonah preaching and was saved. This two stories shows that time for repentance has its end so we should not take it lightly to repent and do not wait saying we have still a lot of time. To build the ark took some time and the rest of the world was surprised anyway. Yet while Noah was building God was waiting until all was ready.
            As to Cain it is true that he was given mark to not kill him yet I would not say it is a mark of salvation I would say it is a mark for others to not take judgment into their own hands because God is the one who suppose to judge, to give life or to take life away. He is the one to avenge. I would say that Cain was lost because his line was cut off, there was no eternal life in him because all his seed was drowned in flood. Look Rom 1:19-20 this is how I understand Bible. These things happened because God wanted to teach us about his invisible Kingdom and Himself who is invisible. So coming to Esau we can see a man who rejected his birth rights and his inheritance which was connected with God blessing and promise given to Abraham. And that promise was going to be given to one only. This is why Isaak couldn’t bless Esau because he had only one blessing. This is why Jacob was so desperate to have this inheritance because inheritance was that promise of God given to Abraham. He knew that Isaak will not divide the promise and he Jacob wanted it so much which desire he had proved with his life. And this is why God was pleased with him Hebr 11:8-10. Yet we do not see reconciliation to Esau and this is how author of letter to Hebrew sees it. So we are called firstborns like Jacob became firstborn. It is interesting that he became firstborn and didn’t have it from the womb of his mother yet he was foreseen to be grater than Esau. So we have the example that this rights can be given to them who does not have them straight away from the beginning. There are no people who rejected their firstborn rights in these assembly in Hebrew 12:23. Esau is a shadow of them who are with no repentance because he already had it and having it rejected it. Hebr 12:16-17. These stories of people who had their encounter with God are given us to understand God’s salvation nowadays and in this manner are they used by Apostles.
            As to sin which have to be always in our life until we die with our body or until Christ shall come. I would say this: There is no one without sin only Christ no doubt about it. This is why He had to come. And this is why John in his letter said 1John 1:8-2:4 “If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us. If we confess our sins, he is faithful and righteous to forgive us [our] sins, and cleanse us from all unrighteousness. If we say that we have not sinned, we make him a liar, and his word is not in us. My children, these things I write to you in order that ye may not sin; and if any one sin, we have a patron with the Father, Jesus Christ [the] righteous; and he is the propitiation for our sins; but not for ours alone, but also for the whole world. And hereby we know that we know him, if we keep his commandments. He that says, I know him, and does not keep his commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him; but whoever keeps his word, in him verily the love of God is perfected. Hereby we know that we are in him. He that says he abides in him ought, even as he walked, himself also [so] to walk.”

            But if we look to whole text we will see that there is immediate solution to the problem of our sin 1 John 2:1. And solution is Christ and who knows Him obey his commandments. Do I obey His commandments when I sin? In 1 John 2:6 says that if I would like to say I am in Christ I should live my life as He did. And we know His life. In 1 John 2:10 is said that if I love my brother I abide in the light and there is no occasion IN ME to stumble. John says there is not even occasion to stumble in them who have love of God in themselves. There is lot to say reading 1 John and there are books about it. I do not want to write another one. But shortly speaking. I understand that coming to God and being filled with his Spirit and being renew to be a new man is a process no doubt about it. And I believe that every one who put his whole heart to it shall be saved. Yet I do not see bases in scriptures to say that sin will accompany us to the end of our lives. I do not see any restriction or boundaries to grace of God in our lives in this matter.
            Dear Barbara I love to have these conversations with you. I would love to do it on this blog. Yet sometimes it could take a bit more than couple of days especially that I work and sometimes cannot respond immediately. So I am taking liberty to give you my email address. My be if you were so kind we would be able to correspond a bit wider and we wouldn’t loose our contact if for example blog would change or something. Everybody who else is interested I invite as well. So my email is: maciekczyrek this special mark live.com.
            My best regards
            Maciek

          • Hi Maciek~

            I very much enjoy discussing Scripture with you, also, because you truly have a heart for our God, and you desire to discuss and find the truth of His Word! I appreciate it that you actually think about what we all write on the blog and that you are able to bring new insights to the discussion. Your last post is no exception. You have brought up some interesting points that I would like to respond to, but like you, it may be a day or two before I can get it (and future responses) written. I would love to communicate through email, and I appreciate your entrusting me with your email address, but I tried to email this message, and it wouldn’t send. I double checked the address, and tried to send it with and without the spaces. Do you have any ideas about why I am having trouble?

            I pray that your day will be blessed!
            Barbara

          • Hi Barbara
            my address is maciekczyrekmarklive.com just change word mark in these address for @. I have given it that way because of them programs scanning internet for email addresses and than sending these spam messages. You could also communicate with me through skype. My address there is maciuch_zw.
            My best regards
            Maciek

      • Sue Ellen, you have a good grasp on salvation. That is clearly the witness and testimony of scripture but some simply do not understand this. That has always been a concern for me, I just don’t understand their thinking. God bless. FZ

  6. It is truly wonderful that we have been personally touched by a loving God who saves us initially and daily through His grace that we may become righteous as He is righteous. As always, Charles Spurgeon brings God’s Word alive to his listeners through great eloquence and depth of thought.

    Having said this, however, I cannot help but be saddened at his inability to fully reconcile the entire Word of God with regard to the ideas of predestination and limited atonement as shown by his comment, “Thus, you see there are some whom the Lord resolves to justify: why should not you and I be of the number?” Like many Christians today, Spurgeon failed to include all relevant Scripture when formulating doctrine on salvation, continually citing verses such as Romans 8:30 at the expense of numerous verses that contradict both the above doctrines.

    I will admit that I was someone who really could not give a solid biblical argument with regard to these issues, so I spend the better part of this past year studying this very subject. (Actually, my study was on whether true, born-again believers, according to John 3:3, can lose their salvation, but the doctrines and supporting Scripture are inextricably woven together.) The goal of my study was the reconciliation of Scripture according to the claim and promise of II Timothy 3:16 that “All scripture [is] given by inspiration of God, and [is] profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness.” Because we are given this assurance that there is no variance in God’s Word and that the “Spirit of truth” will “guide [us] into all truth” (Jn. 16:13), then I knew that I could find the truth, and I did. I’ve gotten into many dialogues with Christians who hold to the view that people are predestined to salvation or damnation, the related idea of limited atonement, and the sister arguments that man does absolutely nothing to be saved and that people cannot lose their salvation. However, the fatal flaw in their reasoning is that they fail to harmonize all relevant verses. Because the issues of predestination and limited atonement, as understood by Calvin and Spurgeon, are second only to the initial salvation message itself, it is imperative that each person is fully able to rightly divide the Word of God (II Tim. 2:15).

    To begin a study these doctrines, there is no better verse than John 3:16, which says, “For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.” The two words that are of importance, here, are “world” and “whosoever.” Looking up the word “whosoever” in the dictionary, we read that it is the archaic form of the word “whoever,” which means “any” or “no matter who,” both of which are indefinite. In John 3:16, it is the Greek word ‘pas’ (Strong’s G3956). Individually it means “each, every, any, all, the whole, everyone, all things, everything,” and collectively it means “some of all types.” The “whosoever” refers to “each and every” as an individual, as a group, or as a whole, and it will be the context that reveals which of these three is being discussed. In John 3:16, it is the “world” (kosmos, G2889) to which Jesus is referring. As we know, most of the words in the Bible have multiple definitions, so we need the context in order to study the exact meaning and subtle nuances of each word through concordances and lexicons. In Strong’s Exhaustive Concordance, it is the third definition: “by metonymy, ‘the human race, mankind.’” In the BLB, the accompanying Thayer’s Lexicon lists it as the fifth definition: “the inhabitants of the world…particularly the inhabitants of the earth, men, the human race.” The correct reading of John 3:16, then, is “For God so loved the [inhabitants of the earth, men, the human race], that he gave his only begotten son, that [each, every, any, or all who] believeth in him should not perish, but have eternal life.” This truth is further supported in Hebrews 2:9 which says, “But we see Jesus, who was made a little lower than the angels for the suffering of death, crowned with glory and honour; that he by the grace of God should taste death for EVERY MAN” (pas, Strong’s G3956, caps mine). What we find, then, is that the doctrines of predestination and limited atonement, as believed and taught by Calvin and Spurgeon, are immediately proven false because no matter what any other verse says or doesn’t say, it cannot contradict what John 3:16 says.

    I’ve taken up a great deal of space here today, but I do want to give a couple more brief explanations and scriptures to study with regard to two other similar doctrines that I have seen argued by believers: Can a believer lose his/her salvation, and how does mankind’s free will work in conjunction with God’s sovereignty?

    There is a great deal of scriptural evidence that illustrates that born-again Christians can, indeed, lose their salvation. One of the strongest passages of this is Hebrews 5:12-6:20. The greatest error in interpretation that I’ve witnessed is that people misinterpret the phrase “If they shall fall away…” (v. 6) as though it is a hypothetical statement that governs the rest of the passage, which it is not as the literal phrase “And this will we do, if God permit” (v. 3) illustrates. In addition, the word “if” in this verse is ‘kai’ (Strong’s G2532), and it means “and.” As I studied this passage, I found that these two points, alone, drastically changed the meaning that many times is given.

    Finally, how does God’s sovereignty work with man’s free will? While it is true that we cannot fully understand how the two work together in all situations, it is it unreasonable to think that we cannot know how they work together with regard to salvation. In the first place, our very salvation is conditional on an act of our free will. God, alone, draws us (Jn. 6:44, Rev. 3:20). If we choose to accept the call of God, we are told that, as an act of our free will, we must “confess [and] believe” (Rom. 10:9) and “call upon the name of the Lord (Rom. 10:13). God, then, alone, saves. In addition, the story of Adam and Eve gives us absolute proof of how the two work together. If there ever was a time in which God’s sovereignty could have trumped mankind’s free will with regard to salvation, this would have been the time and, yet, we know that God let man freely choose and reap the consequences, even when it subjected the entire cosmos to sin and death.

    I pray that God will reveal the absolute truth of His Word to each one of us as we study and reconcile all Scripture.

    Yours in Christ~
    Barbara

  7. My Sister Barbara,

    I enjoyed your post and excellent exegesis on the doctrine of salvation. The doctrine of predestination is a damnable teaching that has hurt countless Christians from moving on to a deeper walk with God and moving on to experiential perfection. They have no incentive to move on in God.

    My Pastor has taught extensively on how the Word of God shows us in many places that things are conditional based upon the free will of the people and each individual. The word “IF” is used to show the conditional statements.

    Here are some examples;

    – 2Ch 15:2 (NKJV) – Speaking to King Asa individually and the whole nation of Judah God says, “And he went out to meet Asa, and said to him: “Hear me, Asa, and all Judah and Benjamin. The LORD is with you while you are with Him. If you seek Him, He will be found by you; but if you forsake Him, He will forsake you.”
    Here there is the conditional statements of, “If you seek Him”, and “If you do not”.

    – Gen 4:7 (NKJV) – Speaks about Cain (story of Cain and Able) where God gives Cain a chance. Many who believe in the false doctrine of predestination would say that Cain was predestined to go to hell. But it says clearly, “’IF’ you do well, will you not be accepted? And ‘IF’ you do not do well, sin lies at the door. And its desire is for you, but YOU should rule over it.” Thus Cain had the opportunity to RULE over sin in his life.

    Because our post today is about grace and salvation I would bring up one more example and that is Romans 10:9 (NKJV) “that ‘IF’ you confess with your mouth the Lord Jesus and “BELIEVE’ in your heart that God has raised Him from the dead, you will be saved.”

    Here we see that it is up to us to confess and believe in Jesus’ death and resurrection.

    It is up to each of us to work out our “’OWN’ salvation with fear and trembling” (Ph 2:12). It is not predetermined like some think that Romans 8:29 is saying because God, in His foreknowledge of mankind, knows who will be saved and who will not be saved. The scripture tells us He (God) knows the end from the beginning Isa 46:9-10 and that there is no one like Him.

    One of the clearest pictures of those who have been saved and lose their salvation is found in Revelation chapter 12 (Rev 12:1-5). Here we see a prophetic picture of the church fighting the devil and in verse 4 we see his deceptive tail take one third of the stars out of heaven (i.e. Saints are likened to stars 1Cr 15:41-42).

    And another picture of one being saved and chosen to be an Apostle is Judas Iscariot and he chooses to give up his salvation by betraying Jesus Christ.

    The Apostle Paul knew that he could lose out on salvation so he pushed himself and encourage us to do the same when he stated in Ph 3:12-13, “No, dear brothers and sisters, I have not achieved it, but I focus on this one thing: Forgetting the past and looking forward to what lies ahead, I don’t mean to say that I have already achieved these things or that I have already reached perfection. But I press on to possess that perfection for which Christ Jesus first possessed me. “

    Furthermore Paul encourages us to ALL finish the race (Heb 12:1-2) “Therefore we also, since we are surrounded by so great a cloud of witnesses, let us lay aside every weight, and the sin which so easily ensnares us, and let ‘US’ run with endurance the race that is set before us, looking unto Jesus, the author and finisher of our faith, who for the joy that was set before Him endured the cross, despising the shame, and has sat down at the right hand of the throne of God.”

    God Bless you my Sister Barbara and our fellow brethren!

    Much Agape,
    Brother Andybob

  8. Andybob~

    Thank you for your kind words and comments. You are blessed, indeed, to have a pastor who teaches the whole council of God. It has been my prayer that all pastors and teachers would follow suit. We need to be strengthened in the power and truth of the Word. Here are a few other “if” verses that show that while our initial salvation is free, our final salvation is not:

    ~“But if ye forgive not men their trespasses, neither will your Father forgive your trespasses” (Matt. 6:15).
    ~“And his lord was wroth, and delivered him to the tormentors, till he should pay all that was due unto him. So likewise shall my heavenly Father do also unto you, if ye from your hearts forgive not every one his brother their trespasses” (Matt. 18:34-35).
    ~“Then said Jesus to those Jews which believed on him, If ye continue in my word, [then] are ye my disciples indeed; And ye shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you free” (Jn. 8:31-32).
    ~“Verily, verily, I say unto you, If a man keep my saying, he shall never see death” (Jn. 8:51).
    ~“I am the vine, ye [are] the branches: He that abideth in me, and I in him, the same bringeth forth much fruit: for without me ye can do nothing. If a man abide not in me, he is cast forth as a branch, and is withered; and men gather them, and cast [them] into the fire, and they are burned” (Jn. 15:5-6).
    ~“For if ye live after the flesh, ye shall die: but if ye through the Spirit do mortify the deeds of the body, ye shall live.” (Rom. 8:13).
    ~“Behold therefore the goodness and severity of God: on them which fell, severity; but toward thee, goodness, if thou continue in [his] goodness: otherwise thou also shalt be cut off” (Rom. 11:22).
    ~“And let us not be weary in well doing: for in due season we shall reap, if we faint not” (Gal. 6:9).
    ~“In the body of his flesh through death, to present you holy and unblameable and unreproveable in his sight: If ye continue in the faith grounded and settled, and [be] not moved away from the hope of the gospel, which ye have heard, [and] which was preached to every creature which is under heaven; whereof I Paul am made a minister” (Col. 1:22-23).
    ~“For now we live, if ye stand fast in the Lord” (I Th. 3:8).
    ~“If we suffer, we shall also reign with [him]: if we deny [him], he also will deny us” (II Tim. 2:12).
    ~“But Christ as a son over his own house; whose house are we, if we hold fast the confidence and the rejoicing of the hope firm unto the end” (Heb. 3:6).
    ~“For we are made partakers of Christ, if we hold the beginning of our confidence stedfast unto the end” (Heb. 3:14).
    ~“If ye endure chastening, God dealeth with you as with sons; for what son is he whom the father chasteneth not? But if ye be without chastisement, whereof all are partakers, then are ye bastards, and not sons” (Heb. 12:7-8).
    ~“See that ye refuse not him that speaketh. For if they escaped not who refused him that spake on earth, much more [shall not] we [escape], if we turn away from him that [speaketh] from heaven” (Heb. 12:25).
    ~“But if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship one with another, and the blood of Jesus Christ his Son cleanseth us from all sin” (I Jn. 1:7).
    ~“If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us [our] sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness” (I Jn. 1:9).
    ~“Let that therefore abide in you, which ye have heard from the beginning. If that which ye have heard from the beginning shall remain in you, ye also shall continue in the Son, and in the Father” (I Jn. 2:24).

    God bless you!
    Barbara

  9. Barbara, thank you for taking the time to share all that your studies have revealed. I strive to be a more diligent student of the Word, and your posts are an inspiration to me.

    Although not as scholarly an illustration, I’d like to share how the truth of predestination was explained to me by my pastor, in a rather simple way…it illustrates the mystery of this truth, which I believe is found in Scripture, but it is tempered with verses that bring the idea into question, causing confusion. Here is the illustration I was given:

    A man, hearing the Gospel of Christ, responds by stepping through a door over which it’s written: “Whosoever will,let him come” (as in Rev. 22:17.) Arriving on the other side of the doorway, he looks back and sees written above the door, “Chosen in Christ before the foundation of the world.” (as in Ephesians 1:4)

    This makes sense to me because I trust that my loving Father does want me to walk through that door, but He wants me to choose to do so by my own free will. As so often is the case with the Lord, it isn’t until I take that step that my eyes are open to the fact that He had chosen me before the foundations of the world. In my mind, I think that He just knew what my choice would be, and so, in a sense I was predestined to make it. I don’t believe that He wills for anyone to NOT choose salvation. Otherwise, His Word would be untrue when it states that He’s not willing for any to perish (as in 2 Peter 3:9)- and the Word, of course is always true.

    Many respected pastors have used this illustration, and I think that H.A. Ironside did so pretty effectively in his book, “In the Heavenlies”, which is a commentary on Ephesians.

    God bless you as you seek deeper understanding. Please continue to share in your gracious way, and, Lord willing we will gain that understanding together!

    • Teresa~

      Well, thank you so much! It is my hope and prayer that I am faithful to share my insights into Scripture in the same way others have shared theirs with me as you have in your illustration.

      In addition to John 3:16, one of the strongest verses that illustrates that God doesn’t choose some for salvation and some for condemnation is the very verse you cited, II Peter 3:9, and it is as you say, He wants us to choose out of our “own free will.” Otherwise, our worship would not be out of love and gratitude but compulsion, and God doesn’t want that. He didn’t need to go to all the trouble of creating us for fellowship if all He had to do is create a species that was hard-wired to love and worship Him. It would have been much quicker and simpler, but what would have been the point? How would He have been glorified in that? The integrity and beauty of His plan is that it is totally voluntary, from our initial salvation as you wrote and continuing on through to the end as Andybob wrote.

      As I studied this topic, the one passage that I couldn’t reconcile for quite awhile was Romans 8:28-30, the verses that Calvin, Spurgeon, and others use to prove special election, limited atonement, and eternal security. I prayed and studied and prayed and studied because I knew that God’s Word doesn’t teach these doctrines and, yet, it seemed to me that this is exactly what these verses were saying. Then one day, the Lord opened my eyes to to a specific phrase, one that is so simple that it just got lost in my thinking. The sequence that takes place in verses 29-30 is for “those who love God” (v. 28); it is for those who finish the race (Heb. 12:1-2), as Andybob wrote, not for those who merely enter the race. I think a complementary verse for this sequence can be found in Jeremiah 29:11 which says, “For I know the thoughts that I think toward you, saith the LORD, thoughts of peace, and not of evil, to give you an expected end.” God is faithful to predestine us to complete this sequence if we love Him which, of course, means continually love Him. After God opened my eyes of understanding, I was again amazed at His faithfulness to give us spiritual light when we ask.

      Again, thank you for your comments as well as your insights. We are brothers and sisters in Christ, and Scripture tells us that “Iron sharpeneth iron; so a man sharpeneth the countenance of his friend” (Pro. 27:17), so I also look forward to hearing that which God has opened up to you.

      Have a blessed week in the Lord!
      Barbara

      • Teresa and Barbara,

        What wonderful hearts you both have for our God and for Jesus Christ and for all the saints. I can see it through your writings.

        One thing we need to press on to know more of is how fantastic our God is. How amazing of a being He truly is. I wrote in my reply to Barbara how he knows the end from the begining. Isaiah 46:9-10, “Remember the former things of old, For I am God, and there is no other; I am God, and there is none like Me, Declaring the end from the beginning, And from ancient times things that are not yet done, Saying, ‘My counsel shall stand, And I will do all My pleasure.”

        He (God, Yahweh) could declare through the Apostle Paul to the Roman churches in Romans 8:29 that he foreknew the outcome of how all the lives of each person on earth would turn out before they were lived out!

        One who studies the scriptures needs to realize that God declares things through the prophets that have not happened as though they have already have happened. For example Romans 4:17 where God called Abraham the father of many nations before his son Isaac was even born and God calls things that are not as though they are. “…the God who gives life to the dead and calls things that are not as though they were.”

        Teresa at one time in my Christian walk I did not understand the truth on a specific topic and had to learn it by searching it out like Barbara has done and the Berean Church members did in Acts 17:11 “Now the Bereans were of more noble character than the Thessalonians, for they received the message with great eagerness and examined the Scriptures every day to see if what Paul said was true.”
        Barbara has lain out from the scriptures that the doctrine of Predestination is not true and I have as well.

        We all agree that salvation is free “if” one believes because our great God and Father has graciously given it to us but “we” need to finish the race and work out our own salvation with fear and trembling (Ph 2:12) .
        Your example of passing through the door is a nice analogy but it is not scriptural and we should obey God and His word rather than man.

        I have learned to keep my heart open to new truths. If I do not understand what a preacher/teacher is teaching I will be like the Bereans and search it out in the scriptures like our sister Barbara has done. I encourage you to do the same.

        Much Agape,
        Andybob

        • Dear Barbara Teresa and Andybob. I just wanted to say amen to what you have said. And this is how I understand the matter:
          When God created first man He brethed into his nostrils breath of life and Adam became a living soul. Because Jesus once said I am the Light of this world I could assume that before He came to the World World was embaded in darkeness and there was no true light in it. Jesus also said that He is the one who gives true bread which brings life – eternal life. I assume either that he also brought with himself true spirit – the one who gives true life – mean ethernal life because He said once that the very words which He spake to them were spirit and were life. So teaching about new creation or being new born: How can we be alife if we do not breathe this spirit, if we do not eat this food if we do not open our eyes to walk in this new life which is in Christ? Initiation of Christian life is symbolised in baptizm. Everyone agree that it is a symbol of death. Like Jonah was praying and crying to God from depth of the sea the same way Crist was crying to his Father and was listened to because of His righteousness (look also to Psalm 18 or Ps 22). Because He did that we also can be taken out of these depths of death in Him if only we die with Him or be deepen into His Death. That deepening in Christ ends with being rescue with the power of God and when we are taken out of this baptizm we are able to take new breath breath of life breath of Spirit of God. And if we breathe we are alife with this new life but if we do not we die like nature shows. So we have to die and we have to be arise and breathe. Parsuing the truth of God is this breathing denaing himself is this dying. Yet we are not able to do this without power of God so we are not able to be save without his help. Yet help is given and this is this food given on wilderness by Christ and this Spirit which is breathed out by Christ through His teaching. And light is also given because teaching of God is that light. And in this way we are saved by grace of God being turned into image of Christ. But we can recognize this salvation in us by the way as John teach in his I letter 1 John 3:7-9. Because Word of God is alife and powerful and does Gods will in us. Only if we have it. But if we are feed on false doctrines and false teaching of human which have only semblance of light we cannot expect to have this power and to have this life given to us by God. Like Jesus tought about false teachers to beware of them because if we follow them we end in the pit together. With best regards to all.

          • Maciek~

            It is obvious that you take very seriously the importance of dying to oneself in order to live the life that our Creator desires for us, and you have a wonderful gift in explaining His truth to others. As believers, we do need to always be mindful of what is expected of us and what we will receive through our obedience. Our God promises great things, but we do, as you have nicely explained, need to do our part and feed off Him and not false doctrines and false teachers. it is wonderful to know that like Jonah and Christ, although we die to ourselves, we will be resurrected!

            Thank you for sharing your heart with us.
            God bless you!
            Barbara

        • Andybob~

          I have also very much enjoyed reading your ideas and learning from your posts on this topic. You bring up a very important point that need to be taken into account when interpreting Scripture and that is that God speaks from an eternal perspective as your examples illustrate.

          You are so right when you say that “we need to press on to know more [about] how fantastic our God is.” If we don’t take the time to develop a relationship with Him through prayer, study, fasting, and repentance, we will miss the life that He has really predestined for us, that of being conformed to the image of Jesus (Rom. 8:29). Sadly, in my own walk, too many years were not truly fruitful or marked with growth because of sin. I was double-minded. However, God is gracious, and after repenting, I began to grow in His grace and love and in greater understanding of His Word. I came through my trials with a new appreciation of just how holy our God is and to be able to begin to grasp just how “fantastic” He is. One thing I know for sure. Although we are saved, He still cannot abide in our sin, so we need to die to ourselves as Maciek so beautifully explained. Psalm 29:2 says it perfectly: “Give unto the LORD the glory due unto his name; worship the LORD in the beauty of holiness.”

          May we remember what God has declared about Himself in Isaiah 46:9-10 that you shared, that He, alone, is God. May we also apply that revelation to our own lives and walk with Him.

          I pray that your week will be blessed in our Savior!
          Barbara

  10. HELP US LORD JESUS TO BE WORTHY OF YOUR CALLING FOR
    WE CAN DO NOTHING OF OURSELVES WE NEED YOU LORD
    WE ASK IN YOUR NAME JESUS THROUGH PRAYER

    Matthew 10:11
    And into whatsoever city or town you shall enter
    Enquire who in it WHO is WORTHY
    And there abide till you go thence

    Matthew 10:13
    And if the house be WORTHY
    Let your peace come upon it
    But if it be not WORTHY
    Let your peace return to you

    Matthew 10:34
    Think not that I am come to send peace on earth
    I came not send peace—but a sword—

    Matthew 10:35
    For I am come to SET A MAN AT VARIANCE AGAINST HIS FATHER
    AND THE DAUGHTER AGAINST HER MOTHER AND THE DAUGHTER-IN-LAW
    AGAINST THE MOTHER-IN-LAW

    Matthew 10:36
    A mans foes shall be they of his own household

    Matthew 10:37
    He that loveth father or mother more than ME
    is not WORTHY of ME

    Matthew 10:38
    And he that taketh not his cross and followeth after ME
    IS NOT WORTHY OF ME

    Matthew 10:39
    He that findeth his life shall lose it
    And he that loseth his life for MY sake shall find it

    Mark 8:35
    For whosoever will save his life shall lose it
    But whosoever shall lose his life for MY sake
    AND THE GOSPELS THE SAME SHALL SAVE IT

    Luke 20:33
    Therefore in the resurrection whose wife of them is she
    for seven had her unto wife

    Luke 20:34
    And JESUS answering said unto them
    The children of this world marry and are given in marriage

    Luke 20:35
    BUT THEY WHICH SHALL BE ACCOUNTED —WORTHY— TO OBTAIN THAT WORLD
    AND THE RESURRECTION FROM THE DEAD NEITHER MARRY NOR ARE GIVEN IN MARRIAGE

    Luke 20:36
    NEITHER CAN THEY DIE ANYMORE FOR THEY ARE EQUAL UNTO THE ANGELS
    AND ARE THE CHILDREN OF GOD
    BEING THE CHILDREN OF THE RESURRECTION

    Acts 13:46
    Then Paul and Barnabas waxed bold and said
    It was necessary that the word of GOD should first
    have been spoken to you
    But seeing you put it from you
    AND JUDGE YOURSELVES —UNWORTHY— OF EVERLASTING LIFE
    lo we turn to the gentiles

    Colossians 1:10
    That you might walk—WORTHY—of the LORD unto –ALL– pleasing
    BEING FRUITFUL IN EVERY GOOD WORK—AND INCREASING IN THE KNOWLEDGE OF GOD

    1 Thessalonians 2:12
    That you would walk–WORTHY– of GOD
    Who hath CALLED you unto —HIS KINGDOM AND GLORY—

    2 Thessalonians 1:4&5
    So that we ourselves glory in you in the churches of GOD
    For your patience and faith in all your persecutions
    and tribulations that you endure
    (5) Which is the manifest token of the righteous judgement of GOD
    THAT YOU MAY BE COUNTED WORTHY OF THE KINGDOM OF GOD
    —FOR WHICH YOU ALSO SUFFER—

    2 Thessalonians 1:11
    Wherefore also we —PRAY— always for you
    THAT OUR GOD WOULD COUNT YOU—WORTHY—OF THIS CALLING
    —AND FULFILL— ALL THE GOOD PLEASURE OF HIS GOODNESS—
    AND THE WORK OF FAITH WITH POWER

    Acts 24:25
    And as he reasoned of —RIGHTEOUSNESS—temperance and judgement to come FELIX TREMBLED AND ANSWERED
    go thy way for this time
    WHEN I HAVE A CONVENIENT SEASON
    I will call for thee

    Psalm 85:10
    Mercy and truth are met together
    RIGHTEOUSNESS and PEACE have kissed each other

    Psalm 85:13
    RIGHTEOUSNESS shall go before HIM
    AND SHALL SET US IN THE WAY OF HIS STEPS

    John 14:27
    Peace I leave with you —MY PEACE I GIVE UNTO YOU—
    not as the world giveth give I unto you
    let not your heart be troubled neither let it be afraid

    Loving the LORD

  11. John 15:9&10
    AS THE FATHER HATH LOVED ME
    SO HAVE I LOVED YOU—CONTINUE IN MY LOVE—
    (10)–IF– YOU KEEP MY COMMANDMENTS YOU SHALL ABIDE IN MY LOVE
    EVEN AS I HAVE KEPT MY FATHERS COMMANDMENTS AND ABIDE IN HIS LOVE

    John 14:15
    –IF– YOU LOVE ME KEEP MY COMMANDMENTS

    John 14:23
    JESUS answered and said unto him
    –IF– A MAN LOVE ME
    HE WILL KEEP MY WORDS
    AND MY FATHER WILL LOVE HIM
    AND WE WILL COME UNTO HIM
    AND MAKE OUR ABODE WITH HIM

    LOVE YOU LORD THANK YOU

    • Steve~

      Thank you for the prayer at the beginning and for finding more “if” verses. I especially like the power of the last one. To know that the Father and Jesus desire to abide in us but won’t do so unless we abide in the Word isn’t something that can be taken lightly at any stage in our Christian walk, is it?

      Bless you for taking your time to always find Scripture to ponder!
      Barbara

  12. We’ve moved on to a new day, so I don’t know if anyone will see this comment, but I must thank you all for sharing your insights on this topic.

    I think that we actually are more in agreement than not. I believe that a person comes to saving knowledge of Christ through his own free will, with the help of the Holy Spirit, and with the understanding that God knew before the foundation of the Earth that that person would choose Christ. I also believe that it’s by that person’s own free will that he continues in the Christian walk – with the strength and assistance and comfort of the Holy Spirit at work in him. I believe that that person must avail himself of the Holy Spirit with a willing heart. (That moment-by-moment surrender as we go about our day, and putting God first in our lives through the reading of His Word, fellowship, and service – not as a legalistic “must”, but as a response to His great love for us.)

    I, too, reject the doctrine of limited atonement – I don’t see it in Scripture, and I don’t see it in the nature of God. So I think we’re in happy agreement on that!

    In short, I believe that we can do nothing completely on our own. 1 Corinthians 2:14 says that the natural man can’t understand spiritual things, so I believe that there’s a work of the Spirit in even our ability to receive the Gospel in such a way that it might be believed.

    In like manner, I believe that the Spirit of God comes alongside of every new believer , “watering” the seeds of faith that have sprouted there, as in Matthew 3:3-23. It is, however, the responsibility of the new believer to keep the soil of his heart in good shape that the roots would go deep, making it possible for him to become like the tree “that yields fruit in season, and does not wither.” (Psalms 1:3) So, again, God working in us + our free will in play.

    I’m off to church, so must close. May the Lord bless you!

  13. Teresa~

    I, for one, would also like to say thanks to you for your comments today. I especially like your point about a “moment-by-moment surrender” because that is where true growth is evident. I’m so grateful for God for bringing each one of us to that realization.

    In church today, the teacher read John 10:17-18 in which Jesus says, “Therefore doth my Father love me, because I lay down my life, that I might take it again. No man taketh it from me, but I lay it down of myself. I have power to lay it down, and I have power to take it again. This commandment have I received of my Father.” As I thought upon these verses, it occurred to me that they hold true for us also. We are to lay our lives down willingly, not as a “legalistic ‘must'” as you wrote. We have been given the power through our free will to lay our lives down for God, and we also have the free will to take it up again if we so choose. Like Christ, we need to continue to lay our lives down so that God is glorified through us. Then, we will also be glorified.

    You are right that we can do nothing on our own. I’m very grateful for this because I wasn’t doing such a great job when I tried!!

    God bless you!
    Barbara

    • A timely passage! The Lord has a way of driving a point home in the sweetest way.

      Amen to all your comments, and I look forward to more edifying discussions on this forum!

  14. Andybob, Teresa, Steve, and Maciek~

    Thank you all so much for today! I love being part of a spiritual community in which we can share what we have and receive what we need with like-minded people. I hope to meet with you all again!

    Your sister in Christ~
    Barbara

  15. Deuteronomy 18:18&19
    And I will raise up to them a Prophet from among their brethren
    Like unto thee I will put –MY WORDS–in HIS mouth and HE shall speak unto them all that I shall command HIM
    (19) And it shall come to pasS that whosoever will NOT –HEARKEN–
    unto –MY WORDS—which HE shall speak– in –MY NAME– I will require it of him

    Acts 3:22&23
    For Moses truly said unto the fathers
    A PROPHET SHALL THE LORD YOUR GOD RAISE UP UNTO YOU OF YOUR BRETHREN LIKE UNTO ME —HIM SHALL YOU HEAR IN ALL THINGS WHATSOEVER HE SHALL SAY UNTO YOU
    (23) AND IT SHALL COME TO PASS THAT—EVERY SOUL–WHICH WILL NOT HEAR THAT PROPHET
    SHALL BE DESTROYED FROM AMONG THE PEOPLE

    Hebrews 1:2&3
    Hath in these last days –SPOKEN– unto us by HIS SON
    Whom HE hath appointed heir of—ALL THINGS—by whom HE also made the worlds
    (3) Who being the brightness of HIS glory and the express image of HIS person—AND UPHOLDING ALL THINGS BY THE —WORD OF HIS POWER—WHEN HE HAD BY —HIMSELF— PURGED OUR SINS
    SAT DOWN ON THE RIGHT HAND OF THE MAJESTY ON HIGH

    Revelation 22:18&19
    For I testify unto–EVERY MAN–THAT HEARETH THE WORDS—OF THE PROPHECY THIS BOOK
    –IF– ANY MAN SHALL ADD UNTO THESE THINGS—GOD SHALL ADD UNTO HIM THE PLAGUES THAT ARE WRITTEN IN THIS BOOK
    (19)AND–IF–ANY MAN SHALL TAKE AWAY FROM THE WORDS OF THIS PROPHECY—GOD SHALL TAKE AWAY HIS PART—OUT OF THE BOOK OF LIFE—AND OUT OF THE HOLY CITY— AND FROM THE THINGS WHICH ARE WRITTEN IN THIS BOOK

    Revelation 22:20
    HE which testifieth these things saith—SURELY I COME QUICKLY AMEN—EVEN SO COME LORD JESUS—

    LOVING THE LORD JESUS

  16. God bless everyone in this blog “community” I just wanted to go over briefly the topic of predestination. It’s short and to the point and I pray it will be helpful. When the Word Speaks of Predestination it speaks about How God has predestined for everyone to hear about His Word, about his Salvation. God has appointed a day(s) for everyone to have a chance to hear about the good news. Not everyone will accept this wonderful Word… the Lord has given us free will. We decide to serve God willingly, loving HIM back. God is not about condemning He’s all about saving, and the His word clearly states that He makes no acception of persons, He has no favorites and those who come to Him he will not cast out. Jesus was sent into the World to save it not to condemn it, of Course God who’s omniscient, and all powerful knows all things…Let’s make it our goal to live in Love like our Master Jesus. This wraps up all His commandments and that’s what matter’s most! LOVE….

    • Lover of Jesus~

      I was unable to find the Scriptures to which you are referring. Would you please give them so that I can look them up?

      Thanks!
      Barbara

  17. God bless you Sister Barbara!
    Here are some verses, I hope they are helpful…

    “Serving Jesus in love”- Jhn 15:10-12 (kjv)
    As the Father hath loved me, so have I loved you: continue ye in my love.If ye keep my commandments, ye shall abide in my love; even as I have kept my Father’s commandments, and abide in his love.These things have I spoken unto you, that my joy might remain in you, and [that] your joy might be full.This is my commandment, That ye love one another, as I have loved you.

    “Sums up the law” – Matthew 22: 37-40
    Jesus replied, “‘You must love the LORD your God with all your heart, all your soul, and all your mind.This is the first and greatest commandment.A second is equally important: ‘Love your neighbor as yourself.’The entire law and all the demands of the prophets are based on these two commandments.”

    “Not cast out” – JOHN 6:37
    All that the Father giveth me shall come to me; and him that cometh to me I will in no wise cast out.

    “No respector of persons” -Acts 10:34
    Then Peter opened his mouth, and said, Of a truth I perceive that God is no respecter of persons:
    (WHEN I QUOTED THIS ONE I SAID THE LORD MAKES NO ACCEPTION, I WAS QUOTING IT IN SPANISH BECUASE IT SAYS ‘NO HACE ACEPCION DE PERSONAS” BUT I MEANT HE MAKES NO RESPECTOR OF PERSONS MEANING WHICH MEANS THE SAME 🙂

    God doesn’t show Favoritism: (ther’s so many!)
    -Romans 2:11
    -Ephesians 6:9
    -1 Timothy 5:21
    WORD TEACHES US TO STAY AWAY FROM IT TOO…
    -eXODUS 23:3
    -Leviticus 19:15
    -James 2:1,9

    Jesus came to save and not condemn: John 3:17
    “For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but to save the world through him.”

    Love the way Jesus has loved you – John 13:34-35
    “A new command I give you: Love one another. As I have loved you, so you must love one another. By this all men will know that you are my disciples, if you love one another.”

    Let me know If i let something out…God bless you sister.
    -Lover of Jesus

    • Hi Lover of Jesus~

      Thank you for responding to my question, but I think there was a little misunderstanding about what I was asking. You had written that “When the Word Speaks of Predestination it speaks about How God has predestined for everyone to hear about His Word, about his Salvation,” so I was seeking those verses. We do serve a loving God who shows no partiality, and while I do believe that He draws everyone to Him (Jn. 3:16 with Jn. 6:44) and that He has given numerous witnesses of His existence (Ecc. 3:11, Rom. 1:20, the Flood, the cross, etc.), I am unaware of any Scripture that specifically says that God has actually “predestined for everyone to hear about His Word, about his Salvation.”

      Thank you anyway! May God continue to bless you today and always!
      Barbara