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Quickened by Grace, in Christ

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“But God, being rich in mercy, because of the great love with which he loved us, even when we were dead in our trespasses, made us alive together with Christ—by grace you have been saved—and raised us up with him and seated us with him in the heavenly places in Christ Jesus”
(Ephesians 2:4-6)

verse 5

In the King James Version, the phrase “made us alive” is translated as quickened, or in other words “vivified”, and it is in regard to being spiritually awakened, as well as corporally, in the afterlife. There must be a spiritual resurrection of the soul before there can be a comfortable resurrection of the body ( Jhn 11:25, 26 Rom 8:11 ).

When considering the phrase  together with Christ we are to remember that the Christ is the Head, seated at God’s right hand. And just as the Head is seated at God’s right hand, so shall the body also sit there with Him. No, we know that we are already seated there in Him (“in Christ Jesus,” Eph 2:6 ), and hereafter shall be seated by Him; in Him already as in our Head, which is the ground of our hope; by Him hereafter, as by the conferring cause, when hope shall be swallowed up in fruition. What God wrought in Christ, He wrought (by the very fact) in all united to Christ, and one with Him.

The phrase by grace you have been saved, in the Greek, translates “you are in a saved state”—not merely “you are being saved,” but you “are passed from death unto life” ( Jhn 5:24 ). Salvation is to the Christian not a thing to be waited for hereafter, but already realized ( 1Jo 3:14 ). The parenthetic introduction of this clause here (compare Eph 2:8 ) is a burst of Paul’s feeling, and in order to make those reading his letter in Ephesus feel that grace from first to last is the sole source of salvation; hence, too, he says “you,” not “we”.

verse 6

The phrase raised us up together is concerning the raising of God’s people with Christ. The “raising up” presupposes previous the quickening of Jesus in the tomb, and of us in the grave of our sins. Just as He was raised, so are we!
When God has seated us with him, He has seated us with Christ, namely, in His ascension. Believers are bodily in heaven in point of right, and virtually so in spirit, and have each their own place assigned there, which in due time they shall take possession of ( Phl 3:20, 21 ). He does not say, “on the right hand of God“; a prerogative reserved to Christ peculiarly; though they (and we) shall share His throne ( Rev 3:21).

All of this is only possible through our union in Christ Jesus. This union is the ground of our present spiritual, and future bodily, resurrection and ascension. “Christ Jesus” is the phrase mostly used in this Epistle, in which the office of the Christ, the Anointed Prophet, Priest and King, is the prominent thought; when the Person is prominent, “Jesus Christ” is the phrase used.

Today’s blog installment was put together using the Jamie, Fausset & Brown Commentary (1871). Here is what Charles Spurgeon had to say about this classic commentary: “It is to some extent a compilation and condensation of other men’s thoughts, but it is sufficiently original to claim a place in every minister’s library: indeed it contains so great a variety of information that if a man had no other exposition he would find himself at no great loss if he possessed this and used it diligently.”

Comments

  1. Paul sufficiently explains in these verses the absolute sovereignty of our God. That even when we were dead in trespasses and dead in sins Christ died for us. He has quickened (made alive)us to a life in Christ. I thank God for His sovereignty because if it were not for Him, I know I would have not been able to obtain salvation on my own. It is the sole work of our loving God that we are saved. If it were of anything we had to do, we couldn’t accomplish it (nor would we want to). We would have died in our sins. In due time, Christ died for the ungodly. I know there is nothing I can do to obtain salvation because if I could, then I could boast about it. Paul says that salvation is not of works lest any man should boast. A gift (which salvation is) is only a gift if it is given, had I to ask or to choose, had I the ability to accept or reject salvation, it then would no longer be considered a gift but rather an offering. Christ has given the free gift of salvation to as many as He hath chosen (John 6:37). It is, has and will be forever the sovereign work of God! Praise His sovereign name!

    God Bless!

    • PB,
      I thank God for the people He has saved because it is through them that His truth goes into a darkened world, but it is imperative that we rightly divide His Word as I’m sure you agree. While it is true that it is God, alone, who does the saving, to say that we don’t have any part in the process is not correct. Paul’s declaration in Ephesians 2 doesn’t mean that we aren’t participants, only that salvation cannot be obtained by our works. You wrote that if you had the “ability to accept or reject salvation, it then would no longer be considered a gift but rather an offering.” Actually the word “gift” in the context is the Greek word “doron” (G1435) and it means “offering.” John Calvin’s idea that we are just too wicked to be able to even call upon the Lord is not scriptural. God not only put eternity in our hearts but also a conscience, meaning that our degenerate natures are not total but, in fact, very much recognize both morality and God. It is this truth that illustrates that we do have a part in our salvation because God wants people to come to Him through their God-given free will. There is far too much to write on here, but I will share one verse with you that illustrates that we do have our part in our salvation. It is Revelation 3:20 which says, “Behold, I stand at the door, and knock: If any man shall hear my voice, and open the door, I will come in to him, and will sup with him, and he with me.” I hope this helps, and I pray that God will bless you as you study this further.

      • The witness and testomony of scripture is that God chose the elect(whoever they are) before they chose him. God did not choose all(i.e. all are not the elect) but God does extend salvation to all and still holds the non-elect( so to speak)accountable for trusting in Jesus as Savior. The Apostle Paul did not know who they were but was aware that they were out there(2 Tim. 2:10)Paul also found these “elect” by the preaching of the Gospel, and their having been “sealed” by the Holy Ghost after the gospel was preached.(1 Thess 1:4-5).

        • Point I was making was this, God has to draw men to Jesus which is a sovereign work of the Holy Spirit. I went forward as a little boy asking Jesus in my heart and believing as much as I could, but was never born again until a few years later.The night I was born again,(saved) it was 100 percent God and zero percent me! We as mortals have been called to give out the Gospel but it is to God’s sovereign choice as to when we are saved. We have no clue as to God’s timing of these things.

          • Okay. Maybe I missed that. I absolutely agree that man is drawn to Jesus by the power of the Holy Spirit (Jn. 6:44) and that this happens in the perfect timing and will of the Father. My point in initially writing, however, was to show PB that we do have a responsibility in our salvation, that Jesus can knock on our hearts all day long, but unless we respond to His call, we will not be saved. I also have a thought or two about your salvation story. I wasn’t there, obviously, so I don’t know what happened in either of your instances, but I want to share a little of my story because I believe you were saved as that “little boy asking Jesus into [your] heart and believing as much as [you] could.” I was born and raised a Mormon. Without boring you with the details that led up to this point, almost twenty years ago, I said the following words: “I’ve made a mess of my life. Please do something with me.” There was no confession of my sin, no acknowledgement of my need to repent, and no verbal affirmation that Jesus was the Savior who died for me. Was I saved? Absolutely. Jesus says that we are to come to Him in childlike faith, which I did and which you did as a little boy. As a person who was raised in a religion that perverts the Word of God beyond all recognition, there was nothing inside of me that could acknowledge the biblical facts that are used when someone leads another person to the Lord, so I called Him in the only way I knew how, which is all He requires. That’s why I was saved, and I believe that’s why you were saved as a little boy. If I may be so bold, I would like to suggest that it was really 100% God when you were that little boy. God bless you.

        • Hi Frank!
          I’m not totally sure of the point you are trying to make in light of what I said. In His foreknowledge, God knew who would accept His Son and who wouldn’t, and as you said, He extends salvation to all. In the OT, God chose a physical people out of a physical world to be His own, and in the NT, God chooses a spiritual people out of a physical world to be His own, but this in no way is to be understood as John Calvin taught because that would mean that God created people who had no chance of being saved. Those people who have answered Jesus’ call on their lives, as written in Revelation 3:20, are the ones who are predetermined to be transformed into the image of Christ. Am I missing something that you are trying to say to me?

          • God bless everyone,

            I can help, OT believers, the spirit was upon them

            NT believers, the spirit was made available to be “IN” them by what Jesus Christ made available.

            OT upon, NT with in,

            Good Day
            Jim Schultz

          • Barbara,

            If in fact you do come back to read this post (because it has been several days since we have commented on this blog post) I would encourage you to consider a few things in what you have mentioned.

            1. Please consider something you have said and then compare it to scripture. You stated “In His foreknowledge, God knew who would accept His Son and who wouldn’t, and as you said, He extends salvation to all.” I would like to see Book, chapter, and verse for this statement. I fully believe God is capable of looking through the spans of time, but what you say negates Paul’s statement that salvation is not of works (Eph. 2:8-9) also, I would have you consider the case of Jacob and Esau (Rom. 9:11). You referenced John Calvin, but I do not agree with John Calvin because Calvin took what was in the Bible and made his versions of them. I believe what God says and that He has a people out of every kindred, tongue, people, and nation (Rev. 5:9). God CHOSE His people before the foundation of the world (not based on foreknowledge of our works as Paul has stated but according to His good purpose) that we should be HOLY and WITHOUT BLAME before HIM in LOVE (Eph. 1:4)! Thank GOD that He took care of His spiritual Israel!

            2. Consider what you have said about Rev. 3:20. This one has been taken out of context for years. Jesus was speaking to the church at Laodicea. Notice what the Bible says just one verse above what you referenced “As many as I love, I rebuke and chasten: be zealous therefore, and repent.” (Rev. 3:19). REMINDER: Jesus was speaking to a CHURCH. These were already believers and people whom Christ LOVED! He wasn’t telling them to open the doors to their heart for Christ to enter in and give eternal salvation. He was telling the church to open up to fellowship unto Christ. They had become lukewarm in their deeds and worship as a church and Christ was warning them that He would be able to take away their candlestick.

            We cannot say that God loves everybody and that He extends salvation to all people because there is no place in the Bible where we read God loves everyone (in fact He hated Esau Mal. 1:2 and Rom. 9:13) God is Sovereign and can hate whomever He will. If we fully believe in a sovereign God then you must accept that. The miracle above all miracles is that He loves His chosen people. A grand a great number far above those that He hates. He will never suffer anyone that He loves to go to hell (John 6:39).

            I hope this will help your understanding. If you are interested in knowing more about the doctrines of Grace then look up the nearest Primitive Baptist Church near you. We do not stand for John Calvin, nor have we ever. We stand for Jesus Christ and Him crucified.

            God Bless!

          • Yes, I’m with you on your thinking that you need to recieve Jesus(john 1:12)I went forward when I was 12 and stood up front and prayed with maybe 5 others the sinners prayer as best I could, and as sincere as I could, because I believed and did not want to go to an eternal Hell. This was something I was doing but I did not recieve the Holy Ghost, I went away with only the knowledge that I had done something. This is where some folks get a little mixed up as to when you recieve the Holy Spirit. I was not saved until I had recieved the Spirit and been baptized by the Spirit into the body of Christ (1Cor. 12:13) I have witnessed to many Mormons as well as Jehovah’s witnesses and never has one be able to convincly say as to when they were born of God. They all seem to just go back to a time that they decided to accept that teaching not that they met the eternal God and were born of God. You would be very good with your background to witness to these decieved servants of, quite frankly, a Satanic doctrine,(Mormonism). Gob bless and nice communicating with you.

      • Quick note: the word gift or dōron is used exclusively in the context to what God has given us. Heb. 9:14 says that Christ offered Himself to GOD! That means he performed the duty of the Great Hig Priest unto the only one who is capable of accepting the offering. When did the priest in the OT ever make a sacrifice offering unto the congregation? Never.

        Not to mention, Paul goes on to remove all doubt that there is anything we have to do for eternal salvation in the statement of “free gift” (Rom. 5:15). It is neither of him that willeth nor of him that runneth but it is GOD that sheweth mercy! I can’t work for it, I can’t say a prayer for it, I can’t even want it. God gave it and the very second God gave it and applied it, I was born again (John 3:8). We have no control over the Holy Spirit. He goes and provides the new birth wheresoever He will. Praise God for His sovereignty!

        • Hi PB and Frank,

          I just read all of your comments, and I appreciate your responding. Dialogue with other Christians is so important because it keeps us sharp (Prov. 27:17). There are several things that you have written, and I would like to comment on them; however, I won’t be able to do it today (Tues.) because it is a busy day for me. I should have something posted sometime tomorrow. If you have the time, I would like to hear again from you.

          God bless you both!

        • Hi PB!

          Thank you for responding to my post. Because we agree that God is omniscient, I assume that I don’t need to provide Scripture for that. With regard to the idea that God extends salvation to all people, Frank gave one of the strongest verses to support this truth, so you may have already read it, but I will give it again: “For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life” (Jn. 3:16). The word “world” in this verse is ‘kosmos’ (Strong’s G2889) and means “the inhabitants of the earth, men, the human race” (Thayer’s Lexicon). We are then told that “whosoever believeth” in Christ will have everlasting life, meaning that anyone in the world who “… shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved. For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation. For the scripture saith, Whosoever believeth on him shall not be ashamed.” (Rom. 10:9-11). These verses from Romans not only support the idea that all people can be saved as written in John 3:16, but they also provide solid, biblical support within themselves.

          You wrote that what I said “negates Paul’s statement that salvation is not of works (Eph. 2:8-9),” so let me further explain what I meant. Just as Paul wrote very clearly in these verses, our salvation is not by works. However, it is unreasonable to think that we play no part in it because God doesn’t want robots for followers but people who willingly choose to follow Him, initially and each day of our lives. That is why He gave us our free will. That is why Joshua so many years ago said, “… choose you this day whom ye will serve…” (Josh. 24:15). It’s all about having a choice and reaping the consequences of that choice. It was true for Adam and Eve, and nothing has changed. When you say, “I can’t work for it, I can’t say a prayer for it, I can’t even want it,” then you are dismissing numerous verses such as Romans 10:9-11 above which say that we must “believe” and “confess” as well as Romans 10:13 which says, “For whosoever shall CALL upon the name of the Lord shall be saved” (caps mine). We even read in Galatians 3:6 that “Even as Abraham BELIEVED God, and it was accounted to him for righteousness” (caps mine). Believing and confessing and calling are not works; they are an acknowledgement that Christ, alone, died for us while we were yet in our sins and that Christ, alone, saves us. To put it another way, I can believe and confess and call upon the Lord all day long, but these things won’t actually save me. It’s Jesus’ power that literally takes me from the kingdom of Satan into the Kingdom of God. John also explains this new birth: “Which were born, not of blood [birth], nor of the will of the flesh [human effort, works], nor of the will of man [desire, inclination], but of God” (1:13).

          You wanted me to consider Jacob and Esau in Rom. 9:11. God choosing Jacob over Esau “according to election” had nothing to do with their salvation but about which one God would use to bring forth His Covenant of salvation. What I’ve read about the meaning behind the words “loved” and “hated” is that they are not to be understood as we understand them because the only reason that God would have to hate Esau is because of his works, and we are told that God decided before the children were born, before they had done good or evil. A better understanding, then, would be that God loved (accepted) Jacob and hated (rejected) Esau for the patriarch position but not for salvation, just as Jesus chose, or accepted, certain men over others to be disciples while still accepting, as believers, those whom He rejected, or did not choose.

          Yes, I referenced John Calvin, but it wasn’t because I hold to his beliefs, one of which is that God chose some people for salvation and some people for damnation, which, if I’ve read your post correctly, is what you believe. I don’t know if you are familiar with his T.U.L.I.P. acronym, but what you have written is very similar to it.
          Revelation 5:9 doesn’t mean that God chose certain people for salvation over other people. It is used to support the truth that God’s salvation was not just for the house of Israel but was for every “kindred, tongue, people, and nation,” which supports Galatians 3:28.

          You wrote, “God CHOSE His people before the foundation of the world (not based on foreknowledge of our works as Paul has stated but according to His good purpose) that we should be HOLY and WITHOUT BLAME before HIM in LOVE (Eph. 1:4)!” In order to understand what is being said, you need to also read verse 5 which says, “Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will.” (Read also Jn. 15:16, Eph. 1:11, and II Th. 2:13) As you know, we are to rightly divide the Word, and we are not to add to the Word, but you have done both. I’m sure that you didn’t do it to be deceitful, but you have, indeed, added to what Paul wrote in Eph. 1:4 and Eph. 2:8-9, which has resulted in a false teaching. Paul neither stated nor implied in Ephesians 2 that man’s salvation was “according to His good purpose” or that God’s choosing us was “not based upon foreknowledge of our works” because both of these statements contradict the rest of the council of God. When reading the Word, we need to take into account all qualifying clauses and phrases. For example, the truth being put forth in Ephesians 1:4-5 isn’t that God “hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world” period but that God “hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world” so that “we should be holy” and that we should be “without blame.” We are not merely objects of being “predestinated” with regard to salvation but of being predestinated “unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself,” which is “the good pleasure of his will.” As I wrote in an earlier post, in the OT, God chose for Himself a physical people out of the world to be His own. In the NT, God chooses a spiritual people out of the world. In other words, it is those people who are born again (Jn. 3:3) whom God chooses out of the world to “be holy,” to be “without blame,” to be “predestinated unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ unto himself.” This idea is further clarified in Ephesians 2:10 which says, “For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them.” God has not ordained or predestined some for salvation; He has ordained and predestined that those who are saved, or “created in Christ Jesus,” become “his workmanship” so that they do the “good works” that were before ordained before the foundations of the world. This is the “good pleasure of his will” and that about which he has perfect foreknowledge.

          Revelation 3:20 is exactly what you say. However, although each Scripture only has one truth, it can have many applications. I have provided only a few out of the many scriptural examples that attest to the fact that that God loves all people and that no one is excluded from the salvation promise. As II Corinthians 5:14 says, “For the love of Christ constraineth us; because we thus judge, that if one died for all, then were all dead.” Given this truth, Revelation 3:20 can legitimately be applied to each person on Earth because it is further supported by Galatians 1:6 which says, “I marvel that ye are so soon removed from him that called you into the grace of Christ unto another gospel.” Here we learn that God does, indeed, call us “into the grace of Christ,” that God doesn’t just “[give] it and the very second [that] God gave it and applied it, I was born again (John 3:8).” We may not know where the Spirit comes from as written in John 3:8 that you cited, but this isn’t to be understood that we are just innocent bystanders in God’s plan of salvation. That is why He says in the preceding verse that “Ye must be born again.” When we are told by God, or anyone else for that matter, that we “must” do something, we understand this to be an imperative, a command that requires our participation through some type of action, in this case, calling upon the Lord for salvation as so many verses prove. That is why Paul writes in II Thessalonians 2:12 that “…they all might be damned who believed not the truth, but had pleasure in unrighteousness.” It’s all about making a conscious decision based upon a choice.

          There are many other problems that accompany the view that God chooses some for salvation over others. Here are just a few:

          ~One of the great truths that comes from Christian theology is the sanctity of life, that God created each person in His image, and to destroy it through unjust means is an affront to the Giver of life. Are we to believe then, that God created billions of people in His image with no intention of ever choosing them so that they may have the opportunity to receive eternal life?
          ~If coming to Jesus for salvation is really something outside the will and action of people, then what is the purpose of God’s plan of salvation for mankind? Why didn’t God, in His foreknowledge, just create an Adam and Eve who totally obeyed the Him and be done with it? They could have just had kids without sinful natures, and they could all just worship God without all the weight of sin and personal responsibility getting in the way. I don’t say this to be facetious. With regard to mankind, the integrity of God’s plan of salvation is based solely upon each and every person’s ability to make and act upon a decision wrought from an unobstructed free will. To say otherwise reduces God’s plan to a sham.
          ~When Jesus spoke about the faith of children in relation to entering heaven (Matt. 18), why did Jesus remark in verse 14 that it wasn’t in the Father’s will that “one of these little ones should perish” when it is very much in the Father’s will because some of them, according to your beliefs, will not be one of those chosen for salvation?

          There is a great deal more that can be written about this topic, but I think there is enough to consider for now. I would be interested in your opinion of what I’ve written.

          God bless you, too! I have a final thought. The enemy would like nothing more than for this to cause division, so let us stand together in Christ’s love, protected by the armor of God, allowing the Holy Spirit to guide us into all truth as He promised.

          I look forward to hearing from you.
          Barbara

          • Barbara,
            I can see you’ve done your research and I commend you for keeping your mind ever in the word of God. No doubt some things you said are true, but I find flaws of contradiction in your theology and reasoning. I also want to point out that if it appeared I was adding to scripture then I do sincerely apologize. That was not my intention, but rather I was insisting that what Paul was stating in Ephesians 1 and 2 was what I was implying, therefore I added some clarification to stress my point. I fully believe in the truth and infallible integrity of God’s holy scriptures.

            I see from your arguments that you’ve never heard of a timely or temporal salvation. This doesn’t surprise me because today’s post-modern churches want to only preach one salvation, the eternal salvation that Jesus Christ has given. But some of the verses you have quoted above have no eternal implications attached to them, whatsoever. For instance you referenced and quoted a portion of Romans 10:9-11&13. Remember context, context, context. Everytime you see the word saved, I’m sure you think of an eternal salvation. That’s how many people who follow the teachings of Jacobus Arminius (Arminians) believe. What Paul was warning the Romans and the Jews found there were to give up the law service because Christ has fulfilled the law. He spoke of their zeal of God, but that their zeal was blind or “not according to knowledge” (Rom. 10:2). His “heart’s desire for Israel” was that they be SAVED from BLIND ZEAL. From ignorance. From not realizing that they didn’t have to perform the works of the law anymore in hopes that they would be saved. This is a timely or temporal salvation. There are many mentioned in the Bible. Peter spoke of a timely salvation on the day of Pentecost He said to them to “save yourselves from this untoward generation” Acts 2:40. Peter was preaching a timely salvation, much like Paul. You absolutely cannot take every verse where “save”, “saved”, “salvation”, etc. and not ask yourself the question “SAVED FROM WHAT?”

            Surely John 3:16 speaks of an eternal salvation, but like I mentioned to Frank, the message is NOT HOW WE GET SAVED, but rather a BLESSED ASSURANCE THAT WE ARE SAVED! Hallelujah! It doesn’t say if you will believe, nor if you would just believe, it says whosoever believeth! (Just a quick note, when the suffix -eth is added to the end of a word in Modern English, which the KJV IS written in, it can also be replaced with the suffix -es). So believeth OR believes. One who ALREADY believes! If I already BELIEVE in Christ, then I am ALREADY saved! The minute the Spirit of God performs the work of the new birth that is the minute salvation has been applied. Before then, you are dead in sins and incapable of asking for salvation.

            Can a dead man speak? Can he ask for anything? We were dead in trespasses and in sins. The only way you can be saved is if God plants his grace within and quickens you (Eph. 2:1 and Col. 2:13). He has known His before the foundation of the world. But you have assumed too much when you say that God predestinates people to hell. The only time predestination is used in the Bible it is in reference to His elect, those whom He foreknew (Rom. 8:29&30 Eph. 1:5&11). Never once does the Bible say God chose a people to go to hell. But if He did, He would be holy and just in His decision.

            You see, the point here with all of this is that you are believing in God with His hands tied. Restricted. You have a hard time believing that God can perform the work of salvation solely on His own. You want to take what Scriptures say and make us have a part in eternally saving ourselves. Granted, it is great to confess Jesus Christ, may His name be ever on our lips! But to say that God wouldn’t have saved one that He loves simply because that person failed to offer a prayer in His life limits the power of God. How else can you account for the souls of those who have never heard the gospel? The infants who have died without saying a prayer (and there is no such thing as an age of accountability we are ALL born in sin (Psa. 51:5)? The mentally handicapped? This broken theology makes excuses for them by contradicting what it teaches.

            God had a people in mind before the foundation of the world. He loved them so much that whatever they did, He would still have them in Heaven because He knew that if they turned from Him He would send His only begotten son to pay for their sins. God didn’t look through the spans of time to see who would accept Him like you stated in an earlier comment. No, but He DID look through the spans of time and He noticed something:
            “The LORD looked down from heaven upon the children of men, to see if there were any that did understand, [and] seek God. They are all gone aside, they are [all] together become filthy: [there is] none that doeth good, no, not one.” Psa. 14:2&3

            “As it is written, There is none righteous, no, not one: There is none that understandeth, there is none that seeketh after God.They are all gone out of the way, they are together become unprofitable; there is none that doeth good, no, not one.” Rom. 3:10-12

            I think you should start looking for another way to explain the elect of God instead of making it appear that it is because we chose to accept God that’s why He chose us. There is utter foolishness in that circular reasoning.

            As for Jacob and Esau, Paul speaks not on a natural kingdom level (once again, context, context, context). Paul is speaking of the heavenly kingdom, God’s chosen and elect. The WHOLE chapter of Romans 9 speaks of the sovereignty of God through His elect people! He states in verses Rom. 9:6-8 that “they are not all Israel which are of Israel.” He is saying that if you think the nation of Israel was God’s chosen seed for glory? Then you are wrong. Because not all of Israel is in the family of God’s elect. However, but in the seed of Isaac, the seed of PROMISE! That covenant seed. Just as God made a covenant with Abraham before Isaac was born that Abraham would be the father of many nations. God made a covenant with Jesus Christ that there would be a people to be with Him, the spiritual Israel. The elect family of God.

            Why wouldn’t God know who His people are? He is omniscient!

            Now, on free-will. No problem there. How do you think we sinned in the first place? Adam chose to do his own will and not the will of the Father. That didn’t mean that Adam wasn’t a child of God. We’ve all sinned and come short of the glory of God, but see, we couldn’t in no way ever on our own ask God to come into our heart, like many people think.
            “But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know [them], because they are spiritually discerned.” 1 Cor. 2:14
            I’m glad the Lord doesn’t leave it up to us to choose Him, because in mine and your natural states, we cannot know God. God must intervene. And He does! With all His children! From the least to the greatest! (Heb. 8:11)

            Another question I’ll pose to you. Did you have anything to do with your natural birth? Did you ask your mother and father to have you? What makes you think you have anything to do with your spiritual birth? After all, Christ says you MUST be BORN again! Just like you, Nicodemus was confused, but Jesus says “Marvel not that I said unto thee, Ye must be born again.” John 3:7 He said, Don’t wonder about the fact that you MUST be born again. He then explains in the next verse that the Spirit of God is like the wind and that He moves wherever He pleases (John 3:8).

            I would also have you to explain to me then why Jesus chose to not pray for the world, if He loved the entire world (John 17:9)? Why Jesus stated the following to the Pharisees “Why do ye not understand my speech? [even] because ye cannot hear my word. Ye are of [your] father the devil, and the lusts of your father ye will do. He was a murderer from the beginning, and abode not in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he speaketh a lie, he speaketh of his own: for he is a liar, and the father of it.” John 8:43&44

            They COULD NOT HEAR because THEY WEREN’T THE FATHER’S.

            Now, to answer a few of your questions. For space and brevity, I will reference your questions that you posed in numerical order, those which you have denoted with a hyphen (-).

            1. In your question you ask “Are we to believe then, that God created billions of people in His image with no intention of ever choosing them so that they may have the opportunity to receive eternal life?” Just so you know, Adam and Eve were created in the image of God (Gen. 1:27). That was the physical image. But God says that we will be conformed to image of Christ! Well, what happened? If everyone was created in the image of God, why must we be conformed to the image of Christ? Because of sin. Once Adam sinned his progeny therefore took on the image of Adam. Sinful man. But God had a plan all along to save His people, with the foreknowledge He had before the foundation of the world (Rom. 8:29). Also, who are we to question God? If He had created a vessel fitted for destruction, then He is sovereign in His power and ability to do so. Paul confirms this belief in Rom. 9:14-23 right after He tells us that God loved Jacob and hated Esau. Yes, God creates some unto destruction, even so, His perfect and just power is shown forth in that. But you shouldn’t be saddened because of that, but be glad that God doesn’t allow those whom He doesn’t love to come into heaven and corrupt it. “These are spots in your feasts of charity, when they feast with you, feeding themselves without fear: clouds [they are] without water, carried about of winds; trees whose fruit withereth, without fruit, twice dead, plucked up by the roots;” Jude 12

            2.You want to know why didn’t God just make robots out of Adam and Eve? God created man that man should obey Him. Man did not. Therefore we know man has free choice. Remember what Samuel told Saul? that obedience is better than sacrifice? (1 Sam 15:22). Well, God’s children didn’t obey. So therefore sacrifice had to be made. Sure, it would have been better if Adam and Eve didn’t sin, and if God chose to predestinate the will of man, we wouldn’t have sinned. But that’s not what happened. But guess what? God has made us to inherit something better than a garden of Eden. He has made us heirs and joint-heirs with Christ (Rom. 8:17). Christ took us, His chosen elect, one step beyond what He created us to be in the Garden of Eden. Since sin came into the world, the effects of sin came with it and so we must all suffer the children of wrath, but only for a season. Soon we will be with Christ in glory! (Rom. 8:18)

            3. Christ references that which was lost and that He came to save them. Matt. 18:11. Jesus has a flock of sheep. “But ye believe not, because ye are not of my sheep, as I said unto you. My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me: And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any [man] pluck them out of my hand.” John 10:26-28. He is speaking of His eternal elect. What He says in Matt. 18:14 that you are referencing is in respect to His sheep. You think the sheep represents the entire Adamic race, but Jesus tells us there are some that are NOT His sheep (John 10:26). “Even so it is not the will of your Father which is in heaven, that one of these little ones should perish.” Matt. 18:14. He is telling us that it is not the will of the Father that any of His children (chosen elect, those He has adopted, those born of the Spirit) should go to hell. He told us that none should be lost “My Father, which gave [them] me, is greater than all; and no [man] is able to pluck [them] out of my Father’s hand.” John 10:29.

            In closing, what I believe and what the Bible teaches is a God who is powerful enough to accomplish all that He has set out to do. What you hold to and believe is that Christ died in vain. If Christ has died and extended His offering of salvation to many yet some do not accept Him, Christ died for those people in vain. I’ll also let you in on this. When Christ said on the cross that “It is finished”, He meant it. Your doctrine says otherwise. The whole point of all that I’ve been saying is that if we claim to believe in a sovereign God, then we MUST believe that He is sovereign in EVERY WAY!

            I’ll appreciate a response. Either way, I’ve enjoyed the studying and the discussion with you both.

            God Bless!

          • Hi PB!

            I just want you to know that I have read your February 8 response to my post of February 7. I should have a response to your comments by Friday. If not, I will let you know.

            Thanks!
            Barbara

      • Barbara, I am so sorry but I have gotten a little mixed up as to where on this blog I was commenting. In short I’m with you on all but PB is very confused with God’s love not being extended to all. I don’t argue the scriptures but I feel like for the sake of truth I should respond to his comment about God’s love. God loves all people and God’s salvation is extended to all people, period. This is clearly what the entirety of scripture teaches as I’m sure you know. It seems to me that he is trying to rationalize sovereignty/responsibility in order to alleviate the tension that exhists when we see both in the scripture, and often side by side I may add (1 Tim. 4:10). In John 3:16 “the world” is not the world of the elect but the world period. To do otherwise is to misrepresent the Bible as the misguided Cults do.

        • Frank,

          Thank you for your response. I would have you to consider the word “world” and “all men” in the contexts with the verses which you have referenced (1 Tim. 4:10 and John 3:16). I want you to consider. also, that each time the words “world”, “all men”, “all people” is used in the Bible that they do not always have a universal meaning. If they did, how else could you reconcile the following verses?

          “And the angel said unto them, Fear not: for, behold, I bring you good tidings of great joy, which shall be to ALL PEOPLE (emphasis added).” Luke 2:10
          compare it to the following:
          “Saying, Where is he that is born King of the Jews? for we have seen his star in the east, and are come to worship him. When Herod the king had heard [these things], he was TROUBLED (emphasis added), and all Jerusalem with him.” Matt. 2:3-4

          It doesn’t sound to me like ALL PEOPLE meant ALL PEOPLE in the entire world. So we must consider which ALL PEOPLE the writer was considering. This is what we should do for all scripture we come across.

          How about the word WORLD?

          “And it came to pass in those days, that there went out a decree from Caesar Augustus, that ALL THE WORLD (emphasis added) should be taxed.” Luke 2:1

          I’ve never been taxed by Caesar nor do I believe the Native Americans at that time were taxed by him. It simply meant the WORLD of the ROMAN EMPIRE.

          Here is another WORLD to consider:

          “I pray for them: I pray NOT for the WORLD (emphasis added), but for them which thou hast given me; for they are thine.” John 17:9

          If Jesus Christ died for the entire Adamic race, for every person ever born, then why was He not praying for everyone?

          We must then come to understand there are different worlds mentioned in the Bible. So that when “God so loved the WORLD” He must have been speaking of a specific world of people. If not, how else can we reconcile these verses? They go hand in hand with with what Jesus preached about God giving Christ an elect world of people to save. We should not avoid the word elect, rather embrace it. The Bible teaches it.

          God Bless.

          • Sorry PB, I’m just not with you on this.The contexts are different for John 3:16 and Luke 2:1, way different. Jesus is making a theological statement concerning a divine attribute of the Father expressed to all humanity. The context demands it and does not suggest otherwise. The passage in Luke is an evil ruler taxing people which anyone reading would understand that its not every human being but only those who were to pay taxes within the context of that day.I understand the restrictive use of some words etc. also the literary tools of grammar e.g.hyperbole,figures of speech etc. I can do no more with John 3:16 than to believe it. You can not reconcile Gods sovereignty and mans freewill. Your understanding of election etc. I’m with up to the point where you say God hates Esau. Sorry you are misguided by semantics as well as translation. God prefered Jacob over Esau that is the intended meaning of the text. God hates sin not people.This is ironic for me to be arguing against sovereignty because 99% of the time I am a staunch defender of it but you have crossed over a little to far, sorry.

          • Frank,

            Thank you for your thoughts. I do agree that the contexts of both John 3:16 and Luke 2:1 are different, but I was not making a point about context, I was making a point about word usage and how it varies according to context, such as the word “world”, “all men”, “all people”, etc. Any good Bible student must always ask his or her self “which ‘world’ is this referring to?” I would also like to say that John 3:16 doesn’t tell us how to obtain eternal salvation but rather is a message of assurance to the believer that “whosoever BELEIVETH (believes) in Him should not perish but have everlasting life” Notice that it says believeth, not WILL believe. This is a message of blessed assurance that if you believe in God then you must be a part of His world of elect children.

            Also, the Scriptures plainly say that God hated Esau. No if’s and’s or but’s about it. Plain and simple. It doesn’t say God hated his sin, although that is true in every case, but it specifically says God hated Esau. What sovereignty! He may love and hate whomsoever He will. He is a sovereign God. We should be thankful He loves anyone, because we were all wretched and depraved and deserved hell and damnation, but God chose to save HIS people! He is longsuffering with the wicked to save them for the day of destruction where His righteousness will ultimately prevail! (Rom. 9:22)

            Ultimately it comes down to either wanting to believe the WHOLE word of God or wanting to turn a blind eye to believe what you’ve been taught all of your life even though the true word of God says differently. I hope I have not offended you (Acts 24:16), but I have simply presented biblical examples of truths in hopes that God’s light and your understanding may both increase here in this life. Take it if you wish, regardless, I know and fully believe by your fruits that you bear that you are surely a child of God!

            God Bless!

          • I’m absolutely not offended. I believe that you are approaching this with good intentions. The verses concerning Election you are right on (BUT) the flip side of the coin is man does have free will and the bible teaches it clearly. Let me give one verse and offer my thinking concerning these truths but it will probably not move you in your thinking. Matt 5:43-44, please read this over and over and meditate upon it. I believe these verses offer to us God’s general love for all men and women, and by all I mean all. I wont explain what I think it says because you are a smart man and obviously do not need me to do it. Now having said that, you are correct that God loves the elect in a different way based on what I believe is a relational love. The elect are viewed differently by the Father not because there important in and of themselves but by virtue of their association with the Lord Jesus Christ. This association was designed by the Father in eternity past when through his on decision He chose to bring certain ones into a relationship with himself. Here I would challenge Barbara to look very closely at Romans 8:29. It does not say here, or, for that matter any where else in the New Testament that God foreknew “the fact that we would accept him as savior” but says he foreknew “persons” and not their decisions. Someone else corrected me on this some time ago and they were right. Foreknew is definitely more than knowledge of facts see Matt 7:23 “I never KNEW you” God has knowlege of all men but the elect in an intimate way. Thats why Jesus is praying for them and not the world in John 17:9. The elect are guaranteed of heaven by the sealing ministry of the Spirit and the very clear declaration of the Word of God. Actually, the way God sees it I am already there seated in the heavenlies with Christ. I believe when we affirm one with out the other we get off balance and I also think that is why both teachings often appear side by side in God’s word e.g. Romans 3:22 1Tim 4:10 and a very good verse which I’m sure you like is John 6:37 “All that the Father giveth me” sovereignty! “shall come to me” free will!
            Now, I heard a preacher say this the other day and it was good. The fact that the Bible teaches both is proof of its divine authorship bacause if man had written it he would have sought a way to reconcile the two or, avoid it all together. Barbara is right and you are too except that you are forgetting the free-will side of it. May we all push for truth and we should wind up close to each other when we draw our conclusions.

          • Frank,

            Just a quick response–In Matt. 5:43-44, Jesus is giving us a commandment based upon our experiences. You see, people like to judge. We often throw around the verse “Judge not that ye be not judged.” Matt. 7:1 but we have also been told to “Judge not according to appearance but judge righteous judgment.” John 7:24. That being said, we are to love our enemies, but so often we judge people so quickly and without reason, really, that we don’t take the time to judge righteous judgment. Only God knows the hearts of men, Eliab thought he knew the naughtiness of David’s heart, but David was righteous in his intentions to fight against the uncircumcised Philistines (1Sam. 17:28). We don’t know who truly is our enemy and who just hasn’t been converted to the truth found in God’s gospel. God does know who the real enemies are, because He sees the heart of everyone. Since we don’t know, we then are instructed to love our enemies. But God, who cannot contradict Himself does not love everyone. You keep saying that He loves everyone, but there will always be Mal. 1:3 and Rom. 9:13.

            I sense you are getting closer to the truth about God’s elect, but I don’t know how in the world you came to the conclusion that there are two groups of people that are saved/to be saved. I’ve never heard that, before, but needless to say, I have considered it and find flaws. Matt. 7:23 doesn’t separate any of God’s elect people. It separates the non-elect from the elect. See John 8:44.

            Last thing–John 6:37 states entirely the sovereignty of God. When Lazarus was dead, did he asked to be made alive? No, because a dead man can’t speak, but so Christ would illustrate how the elect of God who were dead in trespasses and sins were born again, Christ gives a natural example. He spoke (John 11:43), and immediately Lazarus awoke from the dead. That’s exactly how it works in the hearts of all of God’s children. He knows us all by name and at some point between conception and death, Christ calls us by name and the Spirit performs the new birth. All by the work of God.

            Just a few more things to think about.

            God Bless!

          • PB I simply do not agree with your exegesis of most of the verses you use. You seem like you are all over the Bible trying to find anything to drive home your point. I was saved when I was 15 and belong to God. I have strayed in my life several times but God has always restored my fellowship. God is my father and the hope of my heart. I wish you the best and maybe we can chat again on some other subject.

        • I know what you mean! I just responded to PB, and it is getting a little crazy knowing where to insert my responses. Thank you for your input. I would like to respond to what you said, too, but this last post took me longer than I thought it would. I could get something posted to you tomorrow if that’s okay.

          Have a blessed day!
          Barbara

        • I know what you mean! I just responded to PB, and it is getting a little crazy knowing where to insert my responses. Thank you for your input. I would like to respond to what you said, too, but this last post took me longer than I thought it would. I could get something posted to you tomorrow if that’s okay.

          Have a blessed day!
          Barbara

        • Hi Frank!

          I just have a few thoughts on your February 6 post. These are my thoughts on being baptized by the Holy Spirit up to this point in time because I have not reached any final thought. It does seem that each person of the Trinity has a baptism. We know that water baptism represents Christ: “Know ye not, that so many of us as were baptized into Jesus Christ were baptized into his death? Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death: that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life. For if we have been planted together in the likeness of his death, we shall be also [in the likeness] of [his] resurrection” (Rom. 6:3-5). Then, in Mark 1:4, we read, “John did baptize in the wilderness, and preach the baptism of repentance for the remission of sins.” John is performing water baptisms, but it appears that he is also preaching another baptism, one “of repentance for the remission of sins.” This seems to me to be a baptism unto the Father because when we are born again (Jn. 3:3), we are born from above (v. 6), and the very crux of that action is that we have repented (or turned) from our old lives into reconciliation with the Father in order to receive “the remission of [our] sins.”

          Well, to my way of thinking, if both the Father and the Son have a baptism (assuming I am correct on Mark 1:4), then it stands to reason that there should be one of the Holy Spirit, too. We know that Jesus was baptized by the Holy Spirit, but that was before He began His ministry, and this seems to differ from what you are saying, that you weren’t actually saved without being baptized in the Holy Spirit. Let me ask you something for clarification. Did something actually happen to you? I ask this because people have told me that something came over them, for a lack of a better description, and that it was the Holy Spirit. Okay, here’s the problem with which I am faced. As I explained in an earlier post, I was saved almost 20 years ago. Now, I have never experienced anything that can be regarded as a baptism of the Holy Spirit as some people have explained it, but I also know that, even without any experience, I am saved, of that there is no doubt. The Bible tells us several things by which we can know if we are saved. The first is that “The Spirit itself beareth witness with our spirit, that we are the children of God” (Rom. 8:6). The second is that “… the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know [them], because they are spiritually discerned” (I Cor. 2:14). There are other things, of course, but having that hunger and thirst to know God through His Word, through prayer, and through fasting is so evident in my life that I know that it can only come by the Holy Spirit’s work in me, which is in stark contrast to my ‘spiritual’ life in Mormonism. In addition, I can actually study the Word and understand it, which is the biggest evidence that the Holy Spirit dwells in me (Jn. 16:13). Thanks for any insight you have on this subject.

          I also read your comments to PB and your suggestion that I look closely at Romans 8:29 and the rest of the NT because you don’t think that they say that God foreknew “the fact that we would accept him as savior.” I would have to do some more research about whether there are any specific verses that say this exact phrase, but I believe that this is something that we can rightfully glean from the Word, nonetheless. Going back to verse 27, for example, we read that God searches our hearts so, obviously, He knows our hearts. Matthew 9:4, Luke 6:8, and I Corinthians 3:20 are just a few verses that tell us that Jesus knows our thoughts. Hebrews 4:12 is an extremely powerful verse which tells us, “For the word of God [is] quick, and powerful, and sharper than any twoedged sword, piercing even to the dividing asunder of soul and spirit, and of the joints and marrow, and [is] A DISCERNER OF THE THOUGHTS AND INTENTS OF THE HEART” (caps mine). As we know, the written Word is the exact representation of the Living Word, Jesus Christ, so it is clear from this verse alone that God would know exactly, even before the foundations of the Earth, who would and would not accept Him as Savior. God is either omniscient or He isn’t, but if He is, then it cannot logically be argued that He didn’t know who would accept Christ as Savior. I agree that that the word “know” means more than fact knowledge, that applied to believers, it means He knows us in a personal, intimate way. With this in mind, what is the biblical rationale that your friend put forth to support the idea that God “foreknew ‘persons’ and not their decisions”?

          I’m glad that God has used you to witness to Mormons and Jehovah Witnesses because they need to hear the truth. One would think with my background that God would be using me a great deal with Mormons, but that hasn’t been the case. Although not born in Utah, I spent over four decades there, and there are plenty of people who have been called to witness to both groups. What God has called me to, and I believe that I am just entering that season in my life, is to witness to Christians about Mormons because some Christians believe that the LDS Church is just another Christian denomination with some beliefs that are just odd rather than soul damning. He has also called me into Christian apologetics in general, which is directly related to my years in Mormonism because, after learning that it wasn’t true, I vowed to myself that no one was going to do that to me again. I was going to find out for myself what the Bible says.

          I hope to hear from you. Have a blessed day!
          Barbara

          • Barbara,

            No doubt, God could see any and everything we have done throughout the history of this world. But you are using circular reasoning. You are saying God chose us because we chose Him. If I chose God then He must have chosen me. Where does it end and where does it begin? He chose us because we chose Him because He chose us? Do you see what you are saying?

            No doubt God could see if someone would choose Him when He looked through the spans of time. He could even foresee me typing this response to you. The argument is did God choose His elect based upon their works? And to that the Bible gives a resounding NO! If you don’t believe that a prayer is a work of righteousness then you are sadly mistaken. If you don’t think that belief is a work of righteousness then you are misled. Anything you DO by definition is a work. A verb. An action.
            “Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost;” Titus 3:5
            “For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: [it is] the gift of God: Not of works, lest any man should boast.” Eph. 2:9-10

            If you had the mind to ask God into your heart. If you were compelled to pray the sinner’s prayer in sincerity. If you have a sense of condemnation because you have done something wrong. I would have you to know that you, in fact, have ALREADY BEEN SAVED! How else can one seek after God? How else can one say a spiritual prayer? How else can one feel condemned? How else unless God already worked the salvation within us. You said it yourself, “But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know [them], because they are spiritually discerned.” 1 Cor. 2:14

            If they are spiritually discerned then you must have a spirit that has already been made alive in Christ. What your sinner’s prayer and your asking God to come dwell in your heart is not an acceptance of your salvation. God doesn’t leave that up to you. What that is is a recognition. An acknowledgment. That is EVIDENCE that you are His child.
            “But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith,Meekness, temperance: against such there is no law. And they that are Christ’s have crucified the flesh with the affections and lusts.” Gal 5:22-24

            You can’t perform these acts of the fruit of the spirit unless you have the Spirit already. Plain and simple. Don’t try to complicate it.

            The truth is, there will be more people in Heaven than you teach. You believe everyone must hear the Gospel to be saved. You believe that everyone must ask Christ into their hearts. God is more merciful to His children than that. He says that He teaches His children. He quickens them. If you believe in a system of works then you believe in a small number of people in heaven and a large number in hell. God tells us there is a multitude that cannot be numbered by our mortal minds (Heb. 11:12) His chosen people. The truth may be hard for you to swallow at first, but in the end it more perfectly declares the greatness of our loving and sovereign God!

            God bless!

          • Yes!!!!! basically without sounding like a nut I met God. I did not see anything I did not speak in tongues but I cried like a baby and The Holy Spirit fell on me after he drew me to the front of the congregation of kids at the camp. It happened to a few others but not many. The Spirit pricked my heart and said “you need this” and it pushed harder and harder as I resisted because I played sports and had a lot of pride and was worried about what people would think about me. When I went forward the pastor sat me down on a chair and thats when the Spirit fell on me(see the book of Acts where this happens several times to people when preaching is going on,Gospel preaching!It was Glory, Love and I knew it was God! I have drove my wife crazy for 30 years about it. My Princeton graduate son thinks I need a Mental Health evaluation(ha ha) not really He is not saved but did go up front as a boy. The Spirit stayed on me for approx. 10-15 seconds maybe and it was witnessing clearly in my mind and soul “jesus,jesus” over and over and over again. It became very,very heavy at one moment and I looked to the ceiling in tears and thought to my self I might die. I also had the complete awareness that somehow Jesus was there! It then came off and I had POWER!!!!! like I have never had and it was POWER to tell folks about Jesus. I drove people crazy when I got home and I spent so much time in prayer!!! I finally understood the Bible also. I am the most ordinary man on this planet, I am not a sensationalist at all but this is the truth before God I lie not!!!! If you read some of Charles Finneys testimonys he had the same experience I did. When I read it I said yes!! thats what happened to me.
            I know that this is very subjective but it happened. I met a man from Kentucky that I used to love to talk to cause he had the same experience. The Holy Ghost stayed on him for weeks convicting himof sin (rejecting jesus) he said he would get drunk and go outside and hit the side of his car telling God to leave him alone. Finally he got saved! I could not fight God but he did wait for me to say two words in my heart “ok Lord” and then he came in. It was not of this world I know that was my night that God had set aside for me, I just knew it. A buddy I work with asks me all the time about it and I show him in my Bible what it was. Got to go to work, sorry. Pray for me I witnessed to a girl today she is suppose to read John the gospel for me. God bless

    • I am thankful for BLB and use it as a Bible sciptural resoucre…

      So what is interesting is since we know there are no such things are chapter and verse breaks in the Bible, the holy spirit of God spoke through the prophets and Jesus and the holy apostles.

      Therefore we want to always read the scriptures THROUGH to the complete teaching being written about…ie, the point of Eph 2 is that FORMERLY his readers were either Jews under the Law or Pagan’s under bondage to their own flesh (as were the Jews only neither of them understood it until the Gospel revealed as such)…so when we read Eph 2 we must at the very least go to at least vs 10 in any consideration of this “chapter” so as to not miss the point, ie, vs 10 is the point…please read.Note how it begins with “For”.

      Thank you

  2. Thank you for your message. While studying your blog and even when listening in church, God often reveals things that really don’t necessarily pertain to the context of the message, but, naturally, even the stray thoughts almost always seems to take part in to work through the issues. Day dreaming isn’t so bad after all! 🙂 Thanks I needed that…you may never know when your gonna trigger a stray thought that brings healing.

    Blessings to you

  4. Luke 4:4 And JESUS answered him saying it is written that man shall NOT LIVE by bread alone but by every word of GOD

    Psalm 119:50 This is my comfort in my affliction for thy word hath quickened me

    Psalm 119:93 I will never forget thy precepts for with them thou hast quickened me

    Psalm 45:2 thou art fairer than the childrn of men grace is poured into thy lips therefore GOD hath blessed thee forever

  5. I thank God, the Father, that He sent His first begotten Son from the dead.
    Revelation 1:5
    And from Jesus Christ, [who is] the faithful witness, [and] the first begotten of the dead, and the prince of the kings of the earth. Unto him that loved us, and washed us from our sins in his own blood,

    Otherwise when or if I die that death would be permanent.

    Ecclesiastes 9: 4-5
    For to him that is joined to all the living there is hope: for a living dog is better than a dead lion.
    For the living know that they shall die: but the dead know not any thing, neither have they any more a
    reward; for the memory of them is forgotten.
    Ecclesiastes 3: 19-20
    For that which befalleth the sons of men befalleth beasts; even one thing befalleth them: as the one dieth, so dieth the other; yea, they have all one breath; so that a man hath no preeminence above a beast: for all [is] vanity.
    Ecc 3:20 All go unto one place; all are of the dust, and all turn to dust again.

    Unless you have the spirit.

    Romans 8: 11
    But if the Spirit of him that raised up Jesus from the dead dwell in you, he that raised up Christ from the dead shall also quicken your mortal bodies by his Spirit that dwelleth in you.

    And I look forward to Jesus coming.

    1 Thessalonians 4: 13-16
    But I would not have you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning them which are asleep, that ye sorrow not, even as others which have no hope.
    For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him.
    For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive [and] remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep.
    For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:

    Wow, to see bones come from dust and breath enter the bodies of those who died and had the spirit, that they may live again. Can’t wait to see that happen.

  6. 2 Corinthians 12:9 And HE said unto me MY grace is sufficient for the for MY strength is made perfect through weakness very gladly therefore will I rejoice in of my weakness that the strength of CHRIST may dwell in me

    Psalm 27:1 The LORD is my is my light and my salvation whom then shall I fear the LORD is the strength of my life of whom shall I be afraid

    Psalm 27:2 When the wicked even mine enemies and my foes came upon me to eat up my flesh they stumbled and fell

    Psalm 119:130 The entrance of thy words giveth light it giveth understanding unto the simple

    Psalm 119:139 My zeal hath even consumed me because mine enemies have forgotten thy words

    Proverbs 24:1-5 Be not envious against evil men neither desire to be with them (2) for their heart studieth destruction and their lips talk of mischief (3) through wisdom is an house builded and by understanding it is established (4) and by knowledge shall the chambers be filled with all precious and pleasant riches (5) a wise man is strong yea a man of knowledge increaseth strength

    Proverbs 8:6&7 Hear for I will speak of excellent things and the opening of MY lips shall be right things (7) for MY mouth shall speak truth and wickedness is an abomination to MY lips

    Proverbs 8:14 Counsel is mine and sound wisdom I am understanding I have strength

    Proverbs 2:6 For the LORD giveth wisdom out of HIS mouth cometh knowledge and understanding

    Galatians 5:4 CHRIST is become of no effect unto you whosoever of you are justified by the law you are fallen from grace

    Luke 4:22 And all bare HIM witness and wondered at the gracious words which proceeded out of HIS mouth and they said is not this Josephs son

    Galatians 5:7&8 You did run well who did hinder you that you should not obey the truth (8) this persuasion cometh not of HIM that calleth you

    John 14:6 JESUS saith unto him I am the way the truth and the life no man cometh unto the FATHER but by ME

    1 Peter 4:17 For the time is come that judgement must begin at the house of GOD and if it first begin at us what shall the end be of them that obey not the gospel of GOD

    LOVING THE LORD

  7. God’s part—our part

    2 Timothy 2:19 “Nevertheless, God’s solid foundation stands firm, sealed with this inscription: The LORD knows those who are his, and, Everyone who confesses the name of the LORD must turn away from wickedness.”

  8. V-5 Even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us together with Christ, ( by grace ye are saved)
    V-6 And hath raised us up together, and made us sit together in heavenly places in Christ Jesus.

    3 Fold Together:
    • Quickened us together ——- with Christ
    • Raised us up together ——– Where? In heavenly places
    • Sit or Seated us together —– Where? In heavenly places

    Talking about these 3 really start with verse 1:19 through 2:7:

    Exhibiting God’s Mighty Power

    • Christ – when God raised him from the dead
    • Christ – when God seated him at His own right hand in the heavenly places
    a. Far above all; God raised and seated him above what?
    • Principality
    • Power (exousia)
    • Might (dunamis)
    • Dominion (Lordship)
    • Every name that is named (above every name)
    • Put all things under his feet (all things)
    • Gave him to be the head over all things to the church

    Even “YOU”

    • Who were dead in trespasses and sins, WE WERE DEAD, couldn’t apply “good works” in verse 10,
    • Time past you walked according to the World
    • Behaviors in times past in the lusts of our flesh (selfishness, egotisms)
    • Fulfilling the desires of the flesh and the mind
    • Were by nature the children of wrath

    But God who is rich is MERCY, for His Great Love wherewith He loved us:

    • Even when we were dead in sins
    • Hath quickened us together with Christ ( which brings us to what God did for Christ ) see above
    • And hath Raised us up together (which brings us to what God did for Christ) see above
    • Made us sit together in heavenly places in Christ Jesus

    WHY???????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????

    Verse 7 That in the ages to come HE might shew the exceeding riches of His grace in kindness toward us through (in) Christ Jesus.

    • Shew = exhibit
    • Exhibit what? God’s same power as above – exceeding riches of His grace like He did with Jesus Christ, He Will do the same, and He has, and still will, Will what? Exhibit His Power toward US

    2:1
    • Trespasses means a falling aside from the truth when we should have stood up rightly
    • Sins means a failing to hit the mark of our walk, ( it’s like with my rifle, I moved right and left and therefore missed my target) sins are basically missing the mark

    2:4
    • BUT—some thing happened

    2:5
    • Sins = trespasses like in verse 1
    • Quickened = made us alive, (so made us alive with Christ)

    2:6
    • Raised is awakened us up together, means awakened, we were dead, but now with Christ, we were awakened, made alive, no longer spiritually dead, together
    • Sit means seated together with Christ,

    2:7
    • Kindness = means useful service down to us
    •

    Read 2:4-10

    • Were born again, were in him, were raised in him, we were awaken up because of him, were seated and sealed with him, woke us up, wow!
    • Romans 6 helps us understand this

  9. 1Peter 1:23 Being born again not of corruptible seed but of incorruptible by the word of GOD which liveth and abideth forever

    Hebrews 1:2 Hath in these last days spoken unto us by HIS SON whom HE hath appointed heir of all things by whom also he made the worlds

    Hebrews 1:3 Who being the brightness of HIS glory and the express image of HIS person and upholding all things by the WORD OF HIS power when HE had by HIMSELF purged our sins sat down on the right hand of the MAJESTY on high

    Proverbs 25:27 It is not good to eat much honey so for men to search their own glory is not glory

  10. Since October we have begun Sunday evening prayer to pray corporately as a church. Since then have i had an interest in the Biblical spiritual awakenings in history beginning in Acts, thru Wales, Europe and America, South America Asia etc

    Anyway Friday in my personal reading came across quicken in Psalm 119 and was intrigued by its use. Began to look into and do some research this morning when ran into this devotion

    Thank You for being used to Glorify our GOD, our LORD and Saviour Jesus Christ, by His Precious Reviving Spirit

    In Christ’s love
    jose ortiz in Philadelphia (Church of Philly holding on with little strength to His Word 🙂

    • Lots of good arguements…
      How can we take up the love of God? One way, in one person, our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ who gave himself, shedding his blood and by going into death to offer that one accceptable sacrifice to God. This alone brings us peace with God, the emnity between us no longer exists.
      Let us put our eyes on Jesus as the one we do well to be occupied with, let our thoughts begin and end with Him. Hear ye Him.

  12. Hi Frank,

    It is getting pretty wild knowing where to insert my posts, and although I have already posted this comment, I am going to repeat it here so that you know that I still intend to comment on your last post to me. I will post it on Thursday.

    God bless~
    Barbara

  13. PB and Frank,

    There is a lot to write in response to PB’s two posts to me and Frank’s post. I thought I would have it done by this morning, but it didn’t happen. I’m thinking that I will have them done and posted sometime tonight. It might even be late tonight. I’m on the East Coast, so maybe it will get to you at a descent hour. Thank you for your patience. The other thing, and I’m sure you’ll agree, is that it is getting WAY too confusing knowing where to exactly post things. It would be easier if there was a ‘reply’ button at the end of each comment, but there isn’t, so what I’m going to do is to post my responses as a totally new post.

    I hope you both have a blessed day!
    Barbara

  14. Hi Frank!

    What a wonderful experience and testimony! I don’t think you sound like a nut at all!! I can’t say that I understand everything about it, but you did say that you had “POWER,” and that’s what I understand to be a legitimate manifestation of the baptism of the Holy Spirit, that there is boldness to witness which is exactly what happened to you. Although I know I am saved, and although I know that I have been used of God, I have always known that I don’t have the power about which you are speaking, and I was wondering if maybe not all believers have this experience. I was thinking about the three baptisms, and it came to me that, out of the three, the only one that is absolutely necessary is the baptism unto the Father (Mk. 1:4) because that is our salvation. We know from the story of the thieves on the cross that they were never water baptized, and I know people who have been saved for decades and who have been used by God but have not been baptized in the Holy Spirit. I can’t imagine why some would be and some would not be because those who have, like you, are not only blessed in the Lord but become an even greater blessing to others. I will continue to pray about it. Who knows? Maybe it will happen to me. In the meantime, I will read the testimonies of Charles Finney that you recommended.

    I prayed about your meeting with the girl who was going to read the book of John. My prayer was that God would fill you with the wisdom and words that He wanted her to hear and that she would have an open heart to receive them. I hope it went well.

    I don’t know how much longer I will be taking part in these dialogues. I am going to answer the the last two from PB, and then it might be time to stop. I know that there is just so much we can say, and then it is up to the Holy Spirit. I have enjoyed our discussions, and maybe we’ll meet here again! I just want you to know that I will continue to hold you and your family up in prayer, that your son will surrender himself to the will and purpose that God has for him, that you and your wife, as vessels of God, will be used in mighty ways to expand God’s kingdom, and that your family will be blessed in all things.

    God bless you~
    Barbara

    • Yes I know what you mean! But like you said earlier with iron sharpening iron (proverbs) friction is inevitable but it yields a sharper blade.
      Whether you are a polemicist or apologist discourses like this are the norm. My experience was for me, I do not make this normative for all believers, however, the Baptism of the Spirit is normative for all believers and unites us with the death, burial, resurrection of the Lord Jesus. 1 Cor. 12:13 is a key text but not the only text. You can utilize the lexicon/concordance function of the BLB to discover the difference between water baptisms (not essential for salvation) as you mentioned with the thief on the cross cf.1 cor. 17-21 and Spirit Baptism (absolute necessity for salvation). As a general rule verb tenses in Greek convey lots more than in the English language. In scripture “passive verbs” indicate God doing something while “active verbs” indicate we are to do something. The BLB team has done a good job conveying this with the “C” feature on the left. Click on it and you must be on the KJV translation (TR manuscripts) in order for it to say “tense” on the right side. You need to identify the subject and then the verb indicates whether this is an action of God or something I am doing. e.g. 1 Cor 12:13 “are WE all baptized (passive-God did it) into one body”. Gal 3:27 “For as many of you have been baptized (passive-God did it) into Christ have put on Christ”. Romans 6:3 “so many of us as were baptized into Jesus were baptized (passive-God did it) into his death?
      So, this is a theological correct statement that I will make concerning my salvation: I was baptized by the Holy Ghost (passive-God did it)this identified me with the death, burial, resurrection of the Lord Jesus for all time in the mind of God. The next weekend I went into a swimming pool of a friend at the church and I was baptized (active-I did it) in a swimming pool. Therefore I was IMMERSED when I was saved in the Holy Ghost, then approx. a week later I was IMMERSED in water as I identified my self with Christ in his death, burial, resurrection to the people who were there. The Baptism of the Spirit (new birth) is a sovereign operation of God. PB is spot on when he speaks of this. Just as we do not control the wind we absolutely do not control the Spirit. This is God’s business and his alone.
      Matt. 7:21-23, a text I’m sure we all know is a very scary picture for some, VERY SCARY. It was not because of the apparently noble things that they had done (preached, cast out demons, wonderful works) but the simple fact that Jesus did not KNOW them. To know Jesus is to MEET Jesus. I met him that night at camp when he came into my soul and washed my spirit and birthed me into the family of God. One of the greatest deceptions Satan can perform is to make a saved person think he is lost and a lost man think he is saved. The Jews knew the scriptures well, very well but were lost. They dismissed Jesus as a heretic and of course eventually killed him (God’s plan for redemption).Now that’s sovereignty for sure. Barbara, you are a very articulate lady and I can tell very gracious and kind and only you know that you are saved and God gives that assurance through his Spirit Romans 8:16. My wife is saved but did not have the exact thing happen to her either, BUT she knows exactly when the Spirit came into her Body. I have had some inner thoughts all my life about people who go to the front, pray prayers etc. and are never eternally changed. In closing, I think heaven will have people in it that would surprise everyone as well as an eternal Hell. Oh, and by the way Hell is Eternal, as it seems some today depart from the Word and give heed to seducing Spirits and teach other wise. Take a break from the blog if you like but don’t ever stop contending for the Faith, here or where ever.
      God Bless, FZ

      • Hi Frank,

        I have some questions about some of the things that you wrote, but it will have to wait for a day or two. I just wanted to thank you for telling me about the ‘tense’ option in the BLB concordance. You know, I have used this concordance for years in my studies, and it never even occurred to me to see what that option, or the ‘phrase’ option, was all about. I’ve started looking up some of the verses that I think are important to this dialogue, and it is truly a great resource. Thank you!

        Barbara

        • Hey Barbara, yes that feature is a good tool. You know most people are not even concerned with the issues we are discussing, probably because they don’t study the Bible. If you are reading then you are asking questions. I always write down exegetical questions when ever I read. Sometimes the narrative is very simple but when you get something like Hebrews 6 that is hard to nail down then it can be quite difficult. Some opt to run to a commentary which I do at times but I need to see if for my self, which I guess is a good thing. Good verse:John 16:23 “and in that day you shall ask me nothing” When we get to heaven there will be no “darkened mirror” no studying, but we shall know even as we are known! WOW Take your time on the questions, I actually had one for PB about something I was thinking about a verse, maybe he will respond,
          God bless
          FZ

          • Hi Frank,

            It will be wonderful when we know and see in full, but I agree with you of the importance of studying God’s Word now and, sadly, many Christians don’t. I’m sure that my Mormon background is part of the reason why I take Acts 17:11 and II Timothy 2:15 so seriously. I’m like you. I do read commentaries, but I read the Word and pray that the Holy Spirit will guide me into all truth as promised (Jn. 16:13).

            I just want to clarify something about my background because saying you were once a Mormon can be misleading. I was a Mormon and believed that it was true, but I wasn’t brought up in it to the extreme degree that so many of them are with the temple marriages and everything that goes with that lifestyle. In fact, my dad was a Jew, albeit a non practicing one, so I was spared much by God’s grace. The hard thing for me was not leaving it but being in it. Unlike Christianity where everyone is exactly the same in the eyes of God, such is not the case in the LDS Church. Those people who have gone through the temple and who live lives ‘worthy’ of LDS standards will, as you probably know, be Gods and Goddesses of their own worlds while the rest of us spiritual schmucks will be their servants throughout eternity. While I still have very good friendships with my Mormon friends and relatives and never experienced some of the horrors that do very much take place within the LDS community, there is still that underlying air of superiority that emanates from those who believe that they are Gods in embryo, and that was pretty tough to deal with, but our God, the only God, has healed and restored me, and I am so grateful for that.

            You brought up Hebrews 6. I have also studied it, which actually begins back in 5:12, and I believe that it is very clear in saying that true born-again believers can lose their salvation. Because of my background, I won’t join any church, but I do attend a very wonderful Baptist Church, and they all have a real heart for God and for His Word, but the denomination believes in “eternal security.” The subject came up in class last May, and those who spoke up all disagreed with me, giving all the verses that one would expect and none of the verses that suggest otherwise. I talked to the associate pastor about it and began to research it. Although there are still verses I want to include for clarification, my paper is already 30 pages long. As you know, we are not to proof text but to reconcile all relevant Scripture when formulating doctrine. I did just that, and some of it wasn’t easy (Rom. 8:28-30, for example) Granted, there are some extremely compelling verses to suggest that one cannot lose his or her salvation, but when read in light of other Scripture, as they are supposed to be, it becomes evident that one can. In fact, I dare say that it is one of the most documented truths in the entire Bible, and I can’t help but think how much stronger the body of Christ would be if it was understood and acted upon. You didn’t say one way or the other what your opinion is, but I would be interested in knowing if you would like to share it.

            I hope to hear from you~
            Barbara

  15. Hi PB!

    I thought I would be able to finish my response to you, but it has taken me longer than expected. I would like to say that it will be posted tonight, but I’m not sure if that’s going to happen. You have brought up a great many points, and I want to address as many as I can and give a clear answer. If there’s nothing tonight, then I will have it posted Saturday.

    Thanks for your patience and have a blessed day!
    Barbara

    • Barbara, let me ask you a question first. I will illustrate with my life. I was born again by the Holy Spirit when I was 15 at Church camp. Now think with me here, did God know EVERYTHING that would happen for the next 38 years in my life? the good and the bad? now you answer this ok. Now, will he know everything that will happen starting right now up until the time I die? again, you answer this.

      Now I’m sure you answered yes. Its the only answer. Now let me say this in light of what I said. God knew everything about me before I was saved and after I was saved and after knowing ALL THAT guess what? HE STILL SAVED ME!! Always remember that when God does something he knows the end as well as the beginning, its really no difference to him.

      I lived through approx. 8 months in torment thinking I had lost my salvation in my late 20’s. I talked to holiness preachers,baptist preachers, really anybody and everybody!! Finally I decided that I wouldn’t ask anyone else or read another commentary and I would set out on a quest of my own and study only the Bible and pray and ask God to tell me. His is the only opinion that counts. My wife can attest to this too. I spent approx. 4-6 hrs a day reading and studying for approx. 6-8 months.reading, reading and reading. I memorized Hebrews 6 in the process, not intentionally though.I read the bible more during that period than any in my life hands down because I was searching for what the destiny would be for my soul and at times I was scared!!! very scared. But I finally found my answer, It wasn’t in the still small voice I heard at my salvation but it was in the witness of scripture and the guiding of the Spirit.
      You lean towards free will, its the way you are and the way you think. You think you can lose it because of your emphasis of free will and you tend to focus on passages that emphasize this e.g.second Peter 2, Heb. 6, Heb. 10:26, Rev. 3:5. not to mention the ones in the gospels. Sorry to say this but we are right back to where people stand on God’s sovreignty and mans free will. You see your salvation as something you participated in, that is you trusted Christ. Because you see that it was more you establishing this relationship then you also see that it can be you who ends it. Thats your mindset when you are studying (I’m not saying that is a bad thing though). You have trouble with the John 6 passages and the John 10:27 as well as the Romans 8 text you mentioned. We all approach the scriptures from our own context of life if you please, and have a tendency to see at times what we want to. Pelagus was a good moral man so he emphasized mans free will, Augustine had moral issues and he emphasized God’s sovereignty. Any ways I hope this helped. Lots of Baptists (i’m one)do not really know what they believe. Ask your class where they stand on limited atonement one day and see what happens. At least you are digging and searching for truth just like the rest of us. Keep on asking, keep on knocking, keep on seeking.Remeber the guy at the door that kept on knocking, he finally got his answer because of persistence.

      • Hi Frank,

        Just to let you know, I have read your post, and I am working on the response. I do have some things to do today, but I think I can get something to you by this afternoon if not tonight. Also, please pray over our dialogue with PB. Although I did suggest that he take his time, I am a little surprised that he hasn’t responded with something by now. I hope that I didn’t offend him in anyway. Thanks.

        Barbara

      • Hi Frank~

        You have brought up a lot of points, and I will do my best to answer them. I hesitated commenting on Hebrews 6 because I know it has the potential to be a can of worms. I only did so because you had cited it, and I couldn’t tell from your post whether you thought it proved or disproved the idea that one can lose his or her salvation. Even in this recent post, you didn’t specifically state your opinion, but I am assuming from your comments that you don’t think a person can. Before I begin, I’d like to say that I can’t imagine what it must have been like thinking that you had lost your salvation although you did use the word “torment,” so that does give a general idea. You didn’t mention, however, why you thought you had lost it, and I think that would really help me as far as any insights that I might offer to the overall discussion.

        You wrote, “We all approach the scriptures from our own context of life if you please, and have a tendency to see at times what we want to.” I’m certainly not going to say that I have never been wrong because I have, but that has instilled in me the determination to really study something before I speak. Similarly, I’m not suggesting that I can’t be wrong, only that I expect that the verses I cite and explanations I give to be taken into consideration as I do with those that others have cited in opposition. I will share with you how I approach Scripture. First, as I shared in an earlier post, because of my religious background, I made up my mind to never let anyone do that to me again, and I meant it. Something just clicked inside of me, and when I read or watch or listen to anything that has to do with God’s Word, I immediately apply II Timothy 2:15, 3:16, Acts 17:11, and I Thessalonians 5:21. Secondly, as I mentioned, I have written a rather lengthy paper on the subject, and I believe that I approached the topic fairly. I didn’t approach it solely from the standpoint that believers can lose their salvation. I included, and reconciled, scores of verses/passages from both viewpoints. (Just a quick interjection here on your comment that I “have trouble with the John 6 passages and the John 10:27 as well as the Romans 8 text you mentioned.” I don’t believe that I do have problems with John 6, but I discuss it again several paragraphs down, so maybe I’ve made my thoughts clearer. As far as John 10:27 goes, I’m not sure what you mean. PB had said that I believe that all people from the “Adamic race” are the “sheep,” which is not true, and I just corrected his statement. With regard to Romans 8:28-30, I believe that I said that it was a difficult passage, not that I hadn’t come to some kind of conclusion. If I wasn’t clear, please let me know where so that I can explain it better!) The third explanation about how I approach Scripture has to do with the Word of God itself. Both God and man said and did a lot more than what God had others write down and pass down to us as Scripture. I have to believe, then, that every bit of what we have received is of utmost importance, and if it is of utmost importance, then I also have to believe that the exact truth is to be known by believers and that it can be known by believers through the Holy Spirit (Jn. 16:13). I’m sure you agree.

        Part of the discussion about whether believers can lose their salvation is centered upon how God’s sovereignty works in conjunction with man’s free will. As a Baptist, you are probably familiar with the book, “The Baptist Faith & Message,” which I used in my research. On page 79, the free agency of man is discussed, and the author quotes Herschel Hobbs, who said, “Two truths, therefore, must be recognized in regard to election; God’s sovereignty and man’s free will. Both are abundantly taught in the Bible.” The author then writes, “Baptists gladly affirm both truths-that God is sovereign and that human beings are given free agency and personal responsibility” although he adds that “These two truths are difficult for our finite minds to understand.”

        Even though our finite minds cannot completely understand how God’s sovereignty and man’s free agency coexist in every situation, it is unreasonable to think that God hasn’t clearly revealed how His sovereignty works in conjunction with mankind’s free agency with regard to salvation, considering it is the fundamental concern of mankind’s earthly existence, a concern that, depending on how it is understood and acted upon, will result in each person spending his or her eternity in either heaven or hell. To say that man’s free agency is somehow at odds with and in subjection to God’s sovereignty with regard to salvation is to overlook the events in the Garden of Eden. It is there that we read of the greatest biblical example that illustrates exactly and without argument how God’s sovereignty works with man’s absolute free agency with respect to his salvation. If there ever was a time for God to have played His ‘sovereignty card’ to trump man’s free agency, this would have been the time and, yet, we see that He didn’t interfere but let man make his decision and reap the consequences.

        You wrote, “You lean towards free will, its the way you are and the way you think. You think you can lose it because of your emphasis of free will and you tend to focus on passages that emphasize this… You see your salvation as something you participated in, that is you trusted Christ. Because you see that it was more you establishing this relationship then you also see that it can be you who ends it.” There are two separate ideas that you are addressing here. The first is whether man has free will with regard to salvation, and the second is whether man has the free will that can lead him to lose his salvation. As illustrated in the above paragraph, with regard to salvation, God’s sovereignty and man’s free will are not at odds at all. I have a few thoughts on your statement that “[I] see my salvation as something [I] participated in, that is [I] trusted Christ” and because “it was more [me] establishing this relationship,” that I can be the one “who ends it.” I know that a lot has been written by all three of us these past two weeks, but I think if you went back and reread what I wrote that you will see that what may be considered “my participation” is clearly biblical, and if it isn’t, I would very much like you to show me why my interpretation is wrong. First, I absolutely believe that our salvation is God’s work, alone, that He and He only saves because He is the only one capable of saving. The first act of His saving grace, as I wrote on February 4 to you, is to draw people to Him (Jn. 6:44), and as I wrote to PB, is to knock on our hearts (Rev. 3:20 because there is nothing within us that seeks Him (Ps. 14:3, Is. 53:6, Rom. 3:10, Eph. 2:5). Our participation is solely to accept God’s call upon our lives as I wrote on February 8. We must “believeth” (Jn. 3:16) and “confess” (Rom. 10:9) and “call upon the name of the Lord” (Rom. 10:13). He alone draws; we accept; He alone saves. This is totally in keeping with Ephesians 2:8-9 and Isaiah 64:6 which equates our righteousness to “filthy rags,” in reference to menstruation. I hope this clears up your misconception about how I view salvation, that I “see that it was more [me] establishing this relationship” because I neither stated nor implied such. In an attempt to discredit what I wrote, PB wrote on February 9 that “prayer” and “belief” are “works of righteousness” because technically, they are something we “do.” My response to that is just because I “do” something doesn’t mean that it automatically comes under the heading of “works of righteousness.” A work of righteousness is something that I would do and offer to God, expecting my sins to be covered by it in order to be saved and allowed into God’s kingdom. Rather than being that, our acts of believing, confessing, and calling, which are biblically commanded, are the exact opposite; they are our acknowledgment to the Lord that we are in need of salvation and then our asking Him to save us because we recognize that we can’t save ourselves. It is this free will to either accept or reject God’s call upon our lives, initially, and it’s this same free will that allows us to continue to accept of reject God’s call upon our lives. It’s what gives God’s plan of salvation its integrity.

        While I do believe that Scripture does support the idea that one can lose his or her salvation, I want to first clarify what I don’t mean by that. First, one doesn’t lose salvation by sinning. We all sin and will continue to do so until we die or until Christ comes, but we know that when we do, we have “an advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous” (I Jn. 2:1b). Secondly, I also don’t mean that just because a person backslides for a time that the person automatically loses his salvation because that is one of the points of the prodigal son (Lk. 15). However, I do believe that these two things, when allowed to go unchecked, can ultimately lead to a person losing his or her salvation. Thirdly, the word that is pretty much always used to explain the phenomenon of going from a saved to an unsaved condition is “lose.” Although the word “lose” has many biblical and secular meanings, sometimes the word can suggest an action of carelessness akin to losing one’s keys or wallet, and when applied to salvation, it might suggest that one can, though some accidental or unintentional action, lose his or her salvation, which is not at all about what I am talking. After studying the many scriptures that talk about losing salvation, it becomes clear that not one of them is about a person losing salvation because of committing one sin or many sins or about walking on eggshells in fear of committing sin or coming up short in some way. What they are about is losing salvation because of only one of two actions, either by the believer choosing to walk away by rejecting Christ (Matt. 12:31-32) or by the believer choosing to drift away by not growing in the grace and knowledge of Christ (II Pet. 3:18) because he or she ignored the warning of Hebrews 5:12-6:8. Consequently, the person did not become a doer of the word (Jam. 1:22) and did not produce the works that affirmed his professed faith (Jam. 2:24), thereby deceiving himself (Jam. 1:22) that he would inherit eternal life.

        As to what all this means with regard to your initial comments, there are several things to say. Just as you wrote, I would answer ‘yes’ that God did know everything that would happen to you and saved you anyway, but that’s not the point. The point is that you were saved, that you were born again, not that you immediately stopped doing “bad.” That’s not taught in the Bible. Our salvation is only the beginning of our sanctification. As Isaiah 28:13 says, “But the word of the LORD was unto them precept upon precept, precept upon precept; line upon line, line upon line; here a little, [and] there a little; that they might go, and fall backward, and be broken, and snared, and taken.” Can you imagine the burden and discouragement that one would bear if God cleansed and taught everything at once? No one would be able to stay the course. It is a process, and everyone is different. Some people are saved and, while still needing cleansing and forgiveness, seem to head straight for the goal while others, like yourself, didn’t. That’s why we are told to be “longsuffering” with others (Col. 3:12); it’s because God is longsuffering with us, meaning that, depending upon the person, there will be strongholds that need to be broken, hearts that need to be restored, trust that needs to be established and on and on. Yes, God does know the end as well as the beginning, and He knew, just as you wrote somewhere, that one of Satan’s greatest lies is to convince the saved that they’re not, which sounds exactly like what happened to you, and He saved you from that because you had committed yourself to Him when you were 15. In addition, even while we’re not where we are supposed to be, God will, in His grace, draw us back to Him and get us on track, and He will do so with perfect understanding of who we are. Personally, although I was saved, I wasn’t truly walking with the Lord for most of my saved life. However, because He does know the beginning from the end, He also knew why I was the way I was and what I needed to get on track, and He did it. It’s a long story, but He took pretty much everything away from me so that my only option was to look squarely to Him, and it worked. It was so difficult, and I thank Him every day that He did it because it was the only way that I would know Him and grow in Him like I have along with receiving the spiritual blessings that He has promised. However, this is not to be confused with our free will to walk away. I could have turned my back on Him at any time as we know from the story of the Israelites. Although they were very much God’s people, His “elect,” their lack of faith prevented them from entering into the Promised Land. That is why we are warned “…To day if ye will hear his voice, harden not your hearts, as in the provocation” (Heb. 3:15). It is precisely because we have the free will to either choose to follow Him or not.

        There is a lot more that I could write, but this is enough for now. I am interested in what you have to say. Because Hebrews 6 was brought up, and because I believe that it is one of the strongest passages in support of losing one’s salvation, I will take those portions out of my paper and send them to you in a day or two.

        I’m grateful to be having this dialogue with you. Have a blessed day!

        Barbara

      • Hi Frank,

        Here’s something else for your consideration. After posting my response on Tuesday, a couple other examples came to my mind, in addition to Adam and Eve and the Israelites, which testify to the reality that free will is an absolute with with regard to salvation.

        1. Because each person has this freedom to choose, he or she can make the decision to follow Christ and, then, at a later date, make another decision not to. One can only truly have freedom of choice if one continually has the freedom to say ‘no’ as well as to say ‘yes’ because, by definition, the word ‘choice’ means that there is an option, that there is the power to select from alternatives. In addition, the freedom to say no to God is just as important the as the freedom to say yes to Him because He wants a relationship borne out of love, not of compulsion or predestination. There are many instances of this truth throughout the OT. One powerful example is Lucifer about whom Ezekiel wrote, “Thou [art] the anointed cherub that covereth; and I have set thee [so]: thou wast upon the holy mountain of God; thou hast walked up and down in the midst of the stones of fire. Thou [wast] perfect in thy ways from the day that thou wast created, till iniquity was found in thee” (28:14-15). Lucifer, like the angels, had it all; they dwelt with God in perfect fellowship and would have continued to do so throughout eternity except they chose to leave God through the pride that led to their rebellion. As we read in Revelation 12:4a, “And his tail drew the third part of the stars of heaven, and did cast them to the earth.” Revelation 12:9 also says, “And the great dragon was cast out, that old serpent, called the Devil, and Satan, which deceiveth the whole world: he was cast out into the earth, and his angels were cast out with him.”

        2. A true believer, born of the Spirit according to John 3:3, must always have the freedom to walk away, “to will” and “to do.” This truth can be seen in Jesus’ prayer in the Garden of Gethsemane where He says, “O my Father, if it be possible, let this cup pass from me: nevertheless not as I will, but as thou [wilt]” (Matt. 26:39). For Jesus to have made this statement and there not have been a possibility for His (Jesus’) will to be done, this would make for a most ridiculous declaration. In addition, further down in the chapter, Jesus also says, “Thinkest thou that I cannot now pray to my Father, and he shall presently give me more than twelve legions of angels?” (v. 53). What this verse proves is that not only could Jesus have chosen a different path than the Father’s with regard to salvation but that the Father would have complied with His wishes, just as He does with us. Although, thankfully, we know that Jesus did wholly surrender to God’s plan of salvation, it is clear from both of these verses that Jesus could have chosen to do otherwise, and the same is true of us.

        Let me know what you think.
        Barbara

        • You are way to “free will”. You leave no room what so ever for God’s sovereignty. You believe in a one handed salvation(you holding on to God) and fail to see the other side that God is holding on to you. Actually I’m in the hand of God(John 10). You can not not believe after you are saved because it is your nature to believe, that was what regeneration was all about, God imparting to us the divine nature. What ever I was before I was saved at 15 is gone! I still have the body of flesh that can not please God but the inward man always wants to please God.(Romans 7). I did not regenerate my self with a decision, you must be clear on this cause maybe you are missing it, My experience was the new birth. The Holy Spirit came into me and change me forever. I have never been the same since. You just can’t get over meeting God. Question: Did you recieve the Spirit by the works of the law or by the hearing of faith? can you answer that question before God? Please let me know.

          God bless FZ

          • Also I could say lots on this subject as well. But I will try to be brief that way things won’t get jumbled together in these long discussions, easier on both of us I think. FZ

          • Hi Frank!

            I thought I would be done, but I’m not. I should have it posted Saturday. I’m sorry about the delay.

            God bless you~
            Barbara

          • Hi Frank,
            Well, to begin, I am somewhat surprised that you began your response with the comment that “[I] leave no room what so ever for God’s sovereignty” and ended it with the question “Did [I] receive the Spirit by the works of the law or by the hearing of faith?” I am surprised because not only do the details of my post very much disagree with these comments, but, in fact, I summarized my opinion with the very clear statement, “He alone draws; we accept; He alone saves.” The words “He alone” with regard to drawing us and saving us, can only be understood as an acknowledgement of God’s absolute sovereignty, and when I wrote the phrase “we accept” as a reaction to God drawing us, then there really is no other way to understand it other than that I believe that it is very much the “hearing of faith” and not works by which we are initially saved and by which we are made perfect as written in Galatians 3:2-3. You also wrote, “I did not regenerate my self with a decision, you must be clear on this cause maybe you are missing it.” I neither said nor implied that any part of a believer’s regeneration was due to any act on his or her part because Scripture I Corinthians 3:7 plainly says that God gives the increase although this should never be interpreted to mean that we have no part in the process because we do. This is why we are commanded to “work out [our] own salvation with fear and trembling” (Phil. 2:12b).

            You also made the comment that “[I] believe in a one handed salvation (you holding on to God) and fail to see the other side that God is holding on to you.” With all due respect, I don’t believe that at all, and I think that a great deal can be cleared up by understanding, first of all, what the word ‘sovereign’ means with regard to God. Unfortunately, many believers have a mistaken idea about God’s sovereignty. It is true that what He has purposed will come to pass (Is. 14:27). It is also true that in the end, all things will be brought into subjection to Him (I Cor. 15:27-28); however, within these things, God has allowed mankind absolute freedom with regard to moral choice. This is what is referred to in Ephesians 1:11b, which says that all things happen “according to the purpose of him who worketh all things after the counsel of his own will.” It is not just saying that “all things” are “of his own will” because, then, sin would be according to His will, and we know that is false. The important phrase to notice is that it is “all things AFTER THE COUNSEL of his own will” (caps mine), meaning that within His absolute sovereignty, God, according to His own infinite wisdom, has allowed mankind the freedom to choose or reject God and His commands. There just isn’t any other way to explain all the biblical examples of people, saved and unsaved, not following the will of God.

            You made the comment that you are “in the hand of God,” which is absolutely true. The second one is born of God, he or she immediately becomes a child of God with all the provision and protection and blessing and promise and spiritual growth that comes with it. I totally agree with you because that is exactly what the Bible repeatedly says. That is our faith and our hope. However, there is something else, in addition to God’s sovereignty that you need to consider: God did not enter into the new covenant with Himself. We entered into it with Him by accepting His call upon our lives and by confessing our need and calling upon Him to save us. Because of this, we have our part to play to keep the covenant in force because, while God cannot break His covenant with man, man most certainly can break his with God (e.g. Deut. 31:16, 20; II Chron. 30:7-8). I discuss this further down.

            As you wrote in your February 13 post, Baptists “do not really know what they believe.” This is true, but it isn’t just Baptists; I think it is a great portion of the body of Christ, and the reason is that they don’t truly “Study to shew thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth” (II Tim. 2:15). We are commanded to “Prove all things; hold fast that which is good” (I Th. 5:21). To prove something means, as I wrote in a post, is to reconcile all relevant Scripture when formulating doctrine. As I also wrote, I’m not suggesting that I can’t be wrong, only that I expect that the verses I cite and explanations I give to be taken into consideration as I do with those that others have cited in opposition. For example, I gave four examples of how free will plays out with regard to salvation to support the idea that God’s sovereignty doesn’t supersede mankind’s free will with regard to his salvation: Adam and Eve in the Garden of Eden and the Israelites not entering the Promised Land (Feb. 14 post) and Lucifer and his angels and Jesus in the Garden of Gethsemane (Feb. 15 post).* What I posted had nothing to do with my personal interpretation; I merely wrote the biblical facts, but you didn’t address them. If you disagree with them, then I would appreciate a reasonable biblical answer as to why I am incorrect. The reason that we are given II Timothy 3:16 is so that we avoid the pitfalls that are so easily gotten into when there are disagreements in interpretation. In other words, we are told to approach the whole of Scripture and use it in an honest and straightforward way, allowing it, alone, to reveal truth through the power of the Holy Spirit Who will “guide [us] into all truth” (Jn. 16:13b). It is not enough that I can find a verse that supports my opinion or that you can find a verse that supports yours because all we end up with, then, is a game of scriptural volleyball, not the eternal truth that God is putting forth. We are to consider and reconcile all relevant verses in forming our opinions, confidently knowing that there are no contradictions, confidently knowing that whatever one Scripture does or doesn’t say, it will never be at variance with another Scripture.

            *I will even add one to the list. In Matthew 23:37-39, Jesus is expressing great sorrow that the house of Israel has refused Him and tells them, “Behold, your house is left unto you desolate” (v. 38). Like the Israelites of old, these people were of the physical house of Israel, the chosen (elect) of God and, yet, those who refused Christ as Messiah perished because they chose to be judged according to the covenant of the law rather than the covenant of grace. (In case you are wondering, yes, I do believe in the Jewish remnant about whom it is written in Revelation.)

            Earlier, I wrote about the fact that we also enter the covenant with God. Now, every Christian believes that he or she is in the covenant. Where it gets fuzzy with many of them, however, is that they view it as something that cannot be broken, and many verses are given to support this view: John 6:38-40, 10:27-29, 17:12; Romans 8:35-39; Hebrews 13:5-6; I Peter 1:4-5; II Peter 2:9; and Jude 1:24 to name just a few. These verses are all true, and the idea being put forth is that He will always hold onto believers, guaranteeing final salvation. In other words, nothing will separate us from the love of God; He will always be there, through trials, temptations, tragedies, and right on through to our final salvation. However, the purpose of these verses is not to illustrate that believers cannot lose their salvation but to reveal God’s faithfulness to us over and above anything or anyone in Heaven or on Earth or under the Earth that would, through anything at their disposal, appear to be able to snatch us from His arms, His power, or His love (Num. 11:23, Dan. 9:29, Is. 63:1). These verses are our assurance of both His desire and ability to accomplish what He has purposed and that nothing can stop Him. He will never forsake us; however, we can forsake Him. Satan and his minions will try to separate us from the love of God, but they can’t; however, we can separate ourselves from it, as did Judas. God will always lead us; however, we don’t have to follow. This is why we are given the admonition, “Let us hold fast the profession of [our] faith without wavering (for he [is] faithful that promised” (Heb. 10:23). Other people may hurt us and try to discourage us, but we are told, “The LORD [is] on my side; I will not fear: what can man do unto me” (Ps. 118:6). We need only look at the OT to see all of these verses in action. No matter what Israel faced, as long as the people were walking faithfully with the LORD, He kept His hand on them, even in their times of sinning, which we all do. However, when the people rebelled against God, through their own choices, they removed themselves from God’s protective covering, from His provision, and, as the story of the Hebrews wandering and dying in the wilderness proves, even His salvation. It wasn’t that God quit loving them or that evil angels overtook them or that men snatched them from His arms; they had the freedom to choose, and they chose to walk away. Christians have a saying that they like to put forth: “If you feel far from God, guess who moved?” The reason why this is true is because it isn’t God’s fault that we feel distanced from Him; it’s our fault. We have His Word, His guarantee, that He will never “move,” but His creation can move, and there are consequences for that.

            I agree with you that we are not the same after being born again because II Corinthians says, “Therefore if any man [be] in Christ, [he is] a new creature: old things are passed away; behold, all things are become new.” We don’t have the old nature that is in bondage to sin, but we very much can choose to sin and even to do so to the degree of losing our salvation. I will give a few examples out of the many that are given in the Bible. Because of space, I’m not going to copy the Scripture. I’ll just cite the reference along with my comments. Note: As I wrote in an earlier post, although losing one’s salvation is one of the most well documented truths in the entire Bible, please keep in mind that it only takes one example to prove it.

            ~Matthew 24:42-43
            Jesus is talking to His disciples, so if a believer cannot lose his or her salvation, then what is the point of Jesus’ warning about a thief coming and being able to break up the house because the owner of the house wasn’t paying attention and taking care of his spiritual life? The warning here is that we don’t know the time of Jesus’ return, and if we don’t take care to keep our spiritual house built up, allowing the thief to destroy it, then Jesus might very well return during this time, and we won’t be ready to go into the marriage supper. Read also Rev. 16:15.

            ~Luke 14:33-35
            In this particular passage, Jesus is making the point that there is a very real cost to following Him and that those who don’t forsake all cannot be his disciples. We know from Scripture (e.g. Matt. 5:13) that believers are the salt of the Earth, salt being both a preservative and a savory element. However, if believers don’t pay the price, if they aren’t willing to leave the worldly enticements and die to themselves, then, over time, they will fall away; they will lose their strength and flavor, becoming flat and tasteless (morino, Strong’s G3474), rendering them useless as salt. This is apostasy because, as Jesus asks, “…if the salt have lost his savour, wherewith shall it be seasoned?” The point He is making is that it can’t be seasoned again; salt cannot be resalted. He concludes that, at that point, that it is good for nothing, only to be “cast out,” the very phrase used throughout Scripture to show what happens to those who are not saved, whether through unbelief or rebellion.

            ~Romans 15:4 and Hebrews 3:8-12
            Believers are told to learn from what was written before. They are told not to harden their hearts because the same thing that happened to the Israelites in the OT, because of their lack of faith, can also happen to us in the NT; they will not enter the Promised Land/heaven.

            ~I Corinthians 5
            Writing to the Christians in Corinth, Paul rebukes them for being so accepting of the fornication of incest, something that is even abhorrent to the Gentiles (v. 1). In verses 10 and 11, Paul adds other sinful behaviors from which they are to distance themselves. He instructs them to “Purge out therefore the old leaven, that ye may be a new lump, as ye are unleavened” (v. 7), and they are to do this by “put[ing] away from among [them]selves that wicked person” (v. 13). In an act intent on restoring the erring believer back into a right relationship with God, other believers are “To deliver such an one unto Satan for the destruction of the flesh, that the spirit may be saved in the day of the Lord Jesus” (v. 5). In other words, by removing the person from the body, not only is the body cleansed, but the hope is that the person, having been removed from the protection, provision, and fellowship of the body, will repent so that he or she will not lose salvation and, as is plainly stated, that “the spirit may be saved in the day of the Lord Jesus.” I really can think of no other way to interpret this verse except as the loss of salvation.

            ~Galatians 5:1
            Why would Paul say this if it weren’t possible?

            ~II Timothy 4:1-4
            In verses 1-2, Paul is admonishing Timothy to preach the gospel to believers now because, as he says in verses 3-4, the time is coming when they (believers) will “turn…from the truth” and will be “turned unto fables.” We see this today with the faith-prosperity movement and with pseudo-Christian cults that are being peopled out of the Christian community, and I’ve personally witnessed unbiblical doctrines being taught from Christian pulpits. (I’m not referring to normal slips and mistakes here but the putting forth of false teachings as truth.)

            “If” Verses
            There are many Scriptures that are “if” verses, illustrating that part of our final salvation is not free, but conditional. This biblical truth is clarified in the second chapter of James, which says that works are the evidence of a true conversion experience. In order that I am not misunderstood, let me phrase it this way: My salvation is free (Eph. 2:8-9), but my sanctification is not; it will cost me my life (Eph. 2:10, Jam. 2:17-26). Keep in mind that all verses are being directed to believers.

            ~“But if ye forgive not men their trespasses, neither will your Father forgive your trespasses” (Matt. 6:15).
            ~“Then said Jesus to those Jews which believed on him, If ye continue in my word, [then] are ye my disciples indeed; And ye shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you free” (Jn. 8:31-32).
            ~“For if God spared not the natural branches, [take heed] lest he also spare not thee” (Rom. 11:21).
            ~“Behold therefore the goodness and severity of God: on them which fell, severity; but toward thee, goodness, if thou continue in [his] goodness: otherwise thou also shalt be cut off” (Rom. 11:22).
            ~“But Christ as a son over his own house; whose house are we, if we hold fast the confidence and the rejoicing of the hope firm unto the end” (Heb. 3:6).
            ~“For we are made partakers of Christ, if we hold the beginning of our confidence stedfast unto the end” (Heb. 3:14).
            ~“If ye endure chastening, God dealeth with you as with sons; for what son is he whom the father chasteneth not? But if ye be without chastisement, whereof all are partakers, then are ye bastards, and not sons” (Heb. 12:7-8).
            ~“Let that therefore abide in you, which ye have heard from the beginning. If that which ye have heard from the beginning shall remain in you, ye also shall continue in the Son, and in the Father” (I Jn. 2:24).

            Revelation 2:1-3:22, Letters to the Angels of the Seven Churches in Asia
            In the Book of Revelation, Jesus Christ Himself reveals some of the most compelling verses in the Bible to support the idea that one can, indeed, lose his or her salvation. In the summation of each of these seven letters, all written to believing churches, a consequence is written in either the positive or the negative, and each one is based upon the condition that the church “overcometh” something. According to Strong’s Concordance, for a person (or church) to overcome, it means to emerge victorious by holding fast to his faith, even unto death, against the power of foes, temptations, and persecutions (nikao, G3529). What Jesus is telling each church, except Philadelphia, is that it needs to “repent” from a particular sin and that all churches are to “overcometh” something, which would refer to the flesh and the world. As you study, please note that the outcome of each church’s response to Jesus’ criticism and call to repent and to overcome is a specific aspect of salvation, not of reward.

            I was also going to include my thoughts on Hebrews 6 because you had mentioned it in one of your posts, and I think it is a very important passage. I will post it in a day or two. I realize that there is a lot to study here, so I certainly don’t expect a quick response. I will check back every couple days to see if you have posted anything, but if it takes 2-3 weeks, that’s fine, too. I’ll also check to see if I need to clarify something further. I would like to reiterate something. One of the most frustrating things I have encountered when having similar discussions with people is that they ignore what I have written and go on to provide only the verse or passage that appears to support their viewpoint. This is not honest scholarship and very much contradicts how we are to approach Scripture to arrive at the exact truth that is being put forth. If you think I am wrong with my interpretation of a particular verse or passage or idea, that is fine. I am certainly open to other views as long as they can be biblically supported. All I ask is that you please provide the reasoning and Scripture that proves my interpretation wrong in addition to the reasoning and Scripture that reconciles the verses that I have provided with the ones you are going to provide in order to prove your viewpoint. Finally, you and I have each sent quite a few posts to each other, and with all the information, some of the points have not been addressed. If you wouldn’t mind, I would appreciate it if you would address each of the points I have made in response to your comments so that there is some finality to the issues that we are discussing. Thank you!

            Frank, we are a brother and sister in Christ, and I have very much enjoyed our dialogue. I realize that this is a lot of information; therefore, I am keeping us both in prayer, that God will lead us both into His truth and that the enemy and our flesh will not be given place.

            Have a blessed day!
            Barbara

  16. PB,

    My intention was to answer both of your posts, but as you can see, this one is long enough, so I will answer your February 9 post later.

    As I went through both of your responses, I had to ask myself if you even read what I wrote because your comments to me and even to Frank suggest that you didn’t. Therefore, for these issues, I will not repeat my answer but refer you back to what I actually wrote. If you want to respond to what I actually said, then fine. Otherwise, I’m not going to continue with this dialogue. I mean you no disrespect, but it is very frustrating spending my time putting forth an answer only to have someone take issue with something that I didn’t even write or to attempt to teach me something that I had written. I understand that I might write things that need further clarification, and that’s fine, but your responses illustrate that you didn’t even read what I wrote.

    In this post you wrote, “I fully believe in the truth and infallible integrity of God’s holy scriptures.” It is one thing to say this, and it is quite another thing to believe and act upon it. With regard to Romans 10, I have no intention of arguing the idea of a “timely or temporal salvation.” I am perfectly capable of understanding the difference between preventing my grandchildren from running into the street so that they will be “saved from being run over by a car” and those things that pertain to being “saved eternally.” Since you stress “context” with Romans 10:9-11, and 13, may I suggest that you read this chapter for what it is really saying verse by verse and then as a whole? This isn’t a passage that’s steeped in figurative language. It is plain and simple. As someone who was delivered from the Covenant of the law into the Covenant of grace, Paul desires that his fellow Jews be no longer ignorant of how righteousness before God is obtained so that they, too, will have eternal salvation. You wrote that Paul’s desire for Israel “was that they be SAVED from BLIND ZEAL. From ignorance. From not realizing that they didn’t have to perform the works of the law anymore in hopes that they would be saved.” What do you mean by these statements? Your assertion is that “today’s post-modern church” ignores what you term a “timely or temporal salvation” and that we only understand the word “save” within the context of eternity. Why, then, does your argument in the above sentences conclude with the implication that it is their “BLIND ZEAL” and their “ignorance” which prevents them from living “in hopes that they would be saved”? To use your phrase, “SAVED FROM WHAT?” There are only two ways to understand what you have written. You are either writing that their blind zeal is preventing them from being eternally saved, or their blind zeal is preventing them from being saved from their blind zeal (a “timely or temporal salvation”). You’re certainly not suggesting the latter, are you? It is important that we understand this passage as it relates to the whole of God’s Word. These people are being saved from spending eternity in hell. We know from Romans 3:23 that we are all sinners, and we know from 6:23 that the wages of our sin is death. As Romans 2:12 says, “For as many as have sinned without law shall also perish without law: and as many as have sinned in the law shall be judged by the law.” The Jews, of course, “sinned in the law,” and as Paul says in Galatians 5:4, we are saved either by the law or by grace, and Paul is telling them “For Christ [is] the end of the law for righteousness to every one that believeth” (Rom. 10:4).

    You made the comment that John 3:16 it is not “HOW WE GET SAVED” but a “BLESSED ASSURANCE THAT WE ARE SAVED” because of the word “believes.” In the first place, your understanding of how we are to understand the word believeth/believes is wrong. If English is your native tongue, and I assume it is, then you know that, while any action itself is only manifested in the present, it can also be legitimately spoken of as something that can take place in the future, which, of course, would be the present at that time. This verse is merely saying that, at the point that one believes, he or she will be saved, whether at this very moment in time or a moment in time next week or next year. Secondly, what do you do with Romans 10:9 which says, “That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved”? This verse is phrased in an ‘if/then’ format with the ‘then’ understood. Paul is saying that IF we “shalt” confess and if we believe in our hearts, THEN we “shalt be saved.” Shalt, or ‘shall,’ means “will have to, is determined to, or definitely will (dictionary.com), which are all referring to the future. I already addressed your idea of an “applied” salvation. Please read what I wrote. By the way, the KJV is not written in modern English but early modern English. 🙂

    Every Scripture you have put forth to prove the unrighteousness of man is absolutely correct. You also wrote, “Can a dead man speak?” and “Can he ask for anything?” You wrote somewhere that God has to intervene, which is correct, although it is not in the way you believe. The answer if found in John 6:44 which says, “No one can come to Me unless the Father who sent Me draws him; and I will raise him up at the last day.” Please read exactly what is being said here. People aren’t just saved because God had them in mind and chose them as you have written. On the contrary, this verse tells us two truths. First, the Father draws people to Jesus. This is God’s intervention. Secondly, people have to respond to God’s call. This verse says that have to “come to [Jesus],” something you would consider a work, yet this verse plainly says that it is required to be saved in Christ just like the other verses that say that we must confess and call upon the Lord to be saved.

    In addition, your comment that I “have assumed too much when [I] say that God predestinates people to hell” illustrates that you either didn’t read or didn’t understand what I wrote about it. If you want to comment on what I actually wrote, then I will respond.

    It’s not that I have “a hard time believing that God can perform the work of salvation solely on His own.” It’s that the Bible disagrees with your assertion and says repeatedly that we have to confess Him (Rom. 10:9) and to call upon Him (Acts 2:21, Rom. 10:13) in order to be saved. When formulating doctrine, ALL pertinent Scripture must be considered (II Tim. 3:16) or you are just proof texting. What this means is that you have to include the verses that I have cited into your theology, just as I have reconciled your verses with mine, or your theology is just wrong, and it doesn’t matter how many times you repeat yourself or how many times you tell everyone else that they are confused. Given the fact that our eternal destinies rest upon what we believe, you need to ask your elders why their teachings contradict the Word of God. You have a right to know, and they have a responsibility to tell you without intimidating you and without attacking those who disagree.

    As both Frank and I have said and shown scripturally (Jn. 3:16), God loves everyone, not just a group that He “had in mind.” Those who died as infants or young children and the mentally handicapped are born in sin, yes, but God’s grace covers them. As far as all the other people go, I will cite Romans 1:18-20 which says, “For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who hold the truth in unrighteousness; Because that which may be known of God is manifest in them; for God hath shewed [it] unto them. For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, [even] his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse.” Why are they without excuse? Because, as Ecclesiastes 3:llb says, “He has put eternity in [our] hearts.” In addition, as Romans 2:11-15 says, “For there is no partiality with God. For as many as have sinned without law will also perish without law, and as many as have sinned in the law will be judged by the law (for not the hearers of the law [are] just in the sight of God, but the doers of the law will be justified; for when Gentiles, who do not have the law, by nature do the things in the law, these, although not having the law, are a law to themselves, who show the work of the law written in their hearts, their conscience also bearing witness, and between themselves [their] thoughts accusing or else excusing [them]). In other words, man is truly without excuse, and God will be just when He judges because He provided mankind with everything needed to know that He, indeed, exists, from the lights in the heavens as signs to the order and design of the natural world to the eternity He put into our hearts and to our consciences. In addition, He showed His might and power and truth to the ancient world through the Israelites. Later, He gave mankind the witness of Jesus Christ. Today, God has used His people and technology to reach every corner of the Earth, not only with the gospel but with the biblical prophecy that was written so long ago and is now coming to pass. In addition, archeology has uncovered biblical cities and artifacts that support the claims of the Bible while progress in science has given irrefutable evidence for the global flood as well as evidence that refutes evolution. In the future, not only will the world hear the two witnesses prophesy (Rev. 11:3), but it will hear one of God’s angels preach the everlasting gospel to all people on the Earth (Rev. 14:6). In addition to all this, God will, in a last attempt to reach mankind, unveil His power and authority during the Great Tribulation. When God unleashes His wrath, as written in the book of Revelation, His purpose is not solely penal. In reality, it is His last great act of love upon the inhabitants of the world before the Millennium to show that He is God and that He has the right to judge His Creation for its sin and rebellion against Him but that He doesn’t want any to perish. He is showing them, in what can only be viewed as the world’s greatest object lesson, that if they don’t believe and turn to Him for salvation, that the judgment they are experiencing in part, they will be experiencing in full, in hell, for eternity. Man is truly without excuse.

    You wrote, “God didn’t look through the spans of time to see who would accept Him like you stated in an earlier comment.” Actually, I didn’t say that because God didn’t “look through the spans of time” at all. God is eternal and omniscient. Only we are in “time” and understand things linearly and in segments whereas God, as the great “I AM,” just is and just knows.
    I am very much aware of what is meant by the seed of promise and the spiritual aspects of it, but that does not negate the biblical fact in Romans 9:11 that God chose Jacob as the physical patriarch over Esau in this physical world as proven by the large amount of Scripture dedicated to telling us about the physical nation of Israel.

    You wrote, “Now, on free-will.” Before responding, please read what I wrote. In addition, if we couldn’t “ever on our own ask God to come into our heart,” then why have I provided so many verses that say otherwise? I Corinthians 2:14 doesn’t mean that we can’t call upon the Lord; it means that we can’t understand God’s truth until we do. You have also misinterpreted Hebrews 8:11. This has nothing to do with salvation but about God’s saved people learning the truth from the Holy Spirit because He dwells inside of them. Read Isaiah 54:13.

    I have no idea what point you are trying to make about being born again, but I already wrote about it if you care to read it. It also might be better if you didn’t call other people “confused” until you are able to reconcile All Scripture with what you believe (II Tim. 2:15).
    You wrote, “I would also have you to explain to me then why Jesus chose to not pray for the world, if He loved the entire world (John 17:9)?” It’s not “if” Jesus loved the entire world because, as John 3:16 clearly states, He loved the world so much that He died for each and every person as you have already been told with scriptural proof. John 3:16 is God’s Word, and this means that it judges us; we don’t judge it. Why is it that you question the fact that Jesus didn’t pray for the world, although He actually did if you read the rest of the chapter in this chapter and, yet, you totally ignore the fact that Jesus was on His way to His death for this same world? As John 17 illustrates, Jesus had very specific reasons for praying before He offered Himself as a sacrifice for the world’s sin. In verses 1-5, He prays for Himself. In verses 6-19, He prays for His disciples, and in verses 20-26, He prays for all future believers, including, as verse 20 says, “…for them also which shall believe on me through their [the disciples’] word,” proving, once again through the word “shall,” that people will believe and be saved in the future, not that they recognize a “BLESSED ASSURANCE THAT [THEY] ARE SAVED.”
    I’m not sure what point you are trying to make by telling me that the Pharisees “COULD NOT HEAR because THEY WEREN’T THE FATHER’S.” The book of Matthew makes this fact abundantly clear, a fact that is summed up in 15:8, which says, “This people draweth nigh unto me with their mouth, and honoureth me with [their] lips; but their heart is far from me.” If you want to clarify your question, I would be happy to respond.

    Mankind was not created in the “physical image” of God. God is a Spirit (Jn. 4:24). Being created in the image of God means that we are a special creation of God over and above His other creation. Briefly, this includes an intelligence that makes us not only aware of our surroundings and the surroundings of others but also able to change them outside of the survival instincts given to animals. It means that we have a conscience, that we are morally aware. It means that we have a will that is free of our Creator’s and that we use it to exert ourselves and to make decisions, the most important of which is whether to choose to follow Him or not. It means that we are rational beings, able to formulate thought in the concrete, the abstract, the literal, and the figurative and to build upon what we learn. It means we are spiritual beings and have been given a nature befitting our design to commune with and to worship God in purity and holiness. This relationship, of course, was broken through the original sin, but through being born again, we are able to once again live for God in the name of Jesus by the power of the Holy Spirit. Jesus is the express image of God (Heb. 1:3), and we, by dying to ourselves and allowing God to change us, will also reflect that same image (II Cor. 3:18).

    At this point in your post, you discussed Romans 9:14-23. I started writing an answer, but because this response is already long, and because I want to get it posted, I am going to answer it in my next post.

    2- I already know why [God didn’t] just make robots out of Adam and Eve.” Please read what I wrote before responding.

    3- In your explanation of Jesus and His sheep, you wrote of me, “You think the sheep represents the entire Adamic race….” Perhaps you don’t realize it, but several times in your posts (e.g. Feb. 9), you have told me what I believe. If you want to ask me what I believe, that’s fine, but please don’t assume that you know. The truth is that you have been right on only one, that I “believe that everyone must ask Christ into their hearts.” With regard to the sheep, I absolutely do not believe they represent the entire Adamic race but only those people who have been born again and follow Christ. As I’ve written, I’ve been saved for almost two decades. In that time, I have attended seven churches in three states. I have read a great deal of Christian literature, listened to a great deal of Christian radio, attended retreats, seminars, classes, done an enormous amount of research, and have discussed Scripture and apologetics with many believers. In all of that time, I have never heard, even once, what you are claiming. As you asked of me, I am now asking of you. Please provide the exact source for this information.

    In the next paragraph, I come across another example of your telling me what I believe: “What you hold to and believe is that Christ died in vain.” The truth is not that I think that Christ died in vain but that you manipulate Scripture to force the conclusions you want. God is, as you say, powerful, and He did and will accomplish “all that He has set out to do” as He says (Is. 14:24, 27). God’s plan of salvation was this: He offered His Son as a living sacrifice for sinners, which we all are. His beloved Son, Jesus Christ, received the wrath of God that should have been for us. His blood was sprinkled upon the heavenly altar so that all who accept His sacrifice on their behalf will be brought into a right relationship with their Creator, and those who don’t will perish, exactly what we are told in John 3:16. That some people choose not to accept God’s offering is in keeping with their free will because free will, by definition, means that there are options from which a person can choose. People can either choose to accept the wrath that God poured out on Jesus for their sins, or they can choose to have God’s wrath poured out upon themselves for their sins. As we read in Deuteronomy 30:19, “I call heaven and earth to record this day against you, [that] I have set before you life and death, blessing and cursing: therefore choose life, that both thou and thy seed may live.” This verse has both temporal and eternal significance. Adam and Eve were given a choice; the Israelites of old were given a choice, the Jews of today are given a choice, and the Gentiles are given a choice. Yes, when Christ said, “It is finished,” He did mean it. He meant that everything that needed to be done to reconcile sinners and God was accomplished on that cross, not that everyone would accept what He had done. Even a casual reading of the NT illustrates that many people didn’t accept Jesus even though they had seen His many miracles, and we are told in Luke 16:31 that the hardness of men’s hearts against God harden them to their need for a Savior as we read, “…If they hear not Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded, though one rose from the dead, which, of course, they did witness, first in Lazarus and then in Jesus in addition to the “bodies of the saints” that were seen “by many” (Matt. 27:52-53). As we are told in John 3:17-21, “For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world [all of humanity]; but that the world through him might [not ‘will’) be saved. He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already [God’ foreknowledge], because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God. And this is the condemnation, that light is come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than light, because their deeds were evil. For every one that doeth evil hateth the light, neither cometh to the light, lest his deeds should be reproved. But he that doeth truth cometh to the light, that his deeds may be made manifest, that they are wrought in God.”

    Your last sentence says, “The whole point of all that I’ve been saying is that if we claim to believe in a sovereign God, then we MUST believe that He is sovereign in EVERY WAY!” That God is sovereign in “EVERY WAY” is the basis for your belief that “[He] had a people in mind before the foundation of the world. He loved them so much that whatever they did, He would still have them in Heaven because He knew that if they turned from Him He would send His only begotten son to pay for their sins.” (Note: Nowhere in Scripture does it say “if” they turn away from Him, a truth that you, yourself, cited through many verses. Maybe you meant to say ‘when.’) Just to paraphrase what you have stated, if God is truly sovereign, then He is absolutely sovereign. Again, you use this to prove that man’s will had nothing to do with whether he or she is saved because God decided that before the foundations of the world. Whether you realize it or not, when you dismiss man’s free will with regard to salvation, you are also dismissing man’s will with regard to everything else. Either man has free will, or he does not, and your statement that I have quoted at the beginning of this paragraph illustrates that you believe the latter. Please think about the ramifications of what you are saying. You are saying that, rather than exercise the absolute sovereignty that you claim He has in the Garden of Eden so that His entire creation, rather than just those He “had in mind,” could live forever with Him in perfect purity and holiness, He chose, instead, to allow Adam and Eve, the very people He created in His image, the very people He formed with His own two hands, the very people He breathed His life into, to sin, which He hates and which also set into motion a phenomenon that subjected the entire cosmos to sin and death and separation from Him, which He abhors and which necessitated Him to ask the second person of the Trinity, His beloved Jesus Christ, to leave His heavenly abode, His glory, His honor, and His rightful worship to take on flesh and was not only tortured but took upon Himself the sins of all mankind in order to die a death so horrendous that it has not and will not ever be equaled. Is this a reasonable example in keeping with your claim that God is sovereign in every way? The first truth is that God is sovereign. The second truth is that God will not use His sovereignty to interfere with man’s free will to choose or not to choose Him as the above biblical scenario proves. This means, contrary to what you believe, that God, while always sovereign, does not always use His sovereignty; He is not, as you would like to believe, sovereign in “EVERY WAY” because, then, He would have robots following Him instead of people who are grateful that they answered the call upon their lives and live accordingly.

    As I have mentioned, some of your answers illustrate that you have not truly read what I have written. I’m in no hurry, so please take your time to carefully consider what I have written. We are having this dialogue to understand the truth of God’s Word, not to prove which one of us is right. As you know, in order to come to God’s truth, all Scripture must be reconciled (II Tim. 3:16). This is the eternal check and balance God built into His Word to ensure that His truth went forth as He intended. I say this, not to offend or criticize you, but because you have taken great issue with many of the interpretations that both Frank and I have put forth, especially John 3:16, a verse that not only fully explains the salvation message but does so in some of the most simple terms found in the Bible. I am not asking you to believe something merely because I have said it. What I am asking you to do is to take that one verse and study it for the truth it is putting forth without any preconceived notions influencing your understanding. If we are wrong, then you need to show us where we are in error in the verse itself as well as how we have wrongly interpreted the other verses. This doesn’t mean that you give verses that seemingly contradict what we have said but that you include the verses we’ve given with the ones you’ve given when formulating your opinion.

    My prayer is that God will guide us into His truth. Again, don’t think you have to respond quickly. I will check in each day to see if you need clarification on anything, and like I said, I am in no hurry!

    Barbara

  17. Barbara, You need to do a very in depth study on the book of Romans. You fail to see I think the difference between relationship and fellowship as well as justification and sanctification. The great doctrines of justification and understanding the imputation of Christ’s righteousness and my position in him can clarify your thinking on how a person is kept saved. Performance as a child of God has nothing to do with my relationship with God but has everything to do with my fellowship with him. You can not earn salvation nor can you be good enough to retain your salvation afterwards, it is all by grace plus nothing.Remember “and that not of yourself” Eph. 2. Your not kept by free will but by the Grace of God and the power of the Holy Spirit 1 Peter 1:5.If I have to be obedient in my Christian practice to maintain my salvation the it is not of Grace but by merit. We are justified by faith plus nothing. The very good works that a person does after he is saved are done by the Holy spirit who lives in side the person. We can take absolutely no credit for our salvation but the way you persuade me to believe is that I can actually say the it is because of my great free will that has caused me to endure in the Christian life. There is a great mistake in this thinking and puts all the emphasis on works. Study the book of Galatians as well where Paul dealt with this very thinking. I have spent time talking with many people like you over the years. There were people in a Sunday school class that I taught years ago that never could nail it down. That always concerned me but only God can show people the truth. Nothing gets me more excited than talking about God’s mercy and God’s Grace. Talking about whatever good I have done does absolutely nothing for me, nothing. “For by Grace you have been saved” (perfect tense) have been saved, am being saved, one day will be saved.Romans 11:6 “And if by grace then it is no more of works otherwise grace is no more Grace. But if it be of works then it is no more Grace otherwise work is no more works”. Romans 4:16 “Therefore it is of Faith that it might be by Grace”. Grace and works never meet. You can not mix the two, it is by one or the other. My obedience to God is out of love for him not for fear of losing my salvation. If I can lose it then it was a gift with strings attached which it was not. I have never been able to be persuaded to your wat of thinking. I will stand cemented in the Grace and mercy of God and trust in his promises and his sovereignty not in what I can do, sorry. I could go on and on about this but probably to no benefit as to persuade your thinking any. Also be careful what you do with parables they are a different “genre” and must be understood differently. Have a nice day got to go. FZ

    • Hi Frank~

      I am truly saddened that you chose not to address even one of the verses, examples, or explanations that I put forth because God’s truth can only be obtained by reconciling Scripture (II Tim. 3:16).

      I wish you well.
      Your sister in Christ~
      Barbara

      • I’ll Amen, what Frank said. Barbara, unless you start to use scripture the way it is presented not for the tweaking and turning for your own personal beliefs, then you will always live in a world of bondage. I came back on here to see if you had made any progress of thought or conclusion. I am sad to say you are stuck in your ways of salvation by your own works. You use 2 Tim. 3:16 as your personal master key to try and unlock any beliefs you have. But scripture must be interpreted with scripture, not with personal bias. I pray God opens your eyes to the truth. In the mean time, study what the Primitive Baptists believe, you just might be enlightened.

        “If you’re too afraid to question what you believe, then it’s probably not worth believing in.”

        God Bless

        • PB,

          You are right. I do use II Timothy 3:16 as my “personal master key;” we’re all supposed to. That’s why God gave it to us, and that’s why I am able to reconcile Scripture. If you or Frank were able to do so, you would have done so with my responses, but neither of you did as a review of our dialogues will illustrate. Rather than provide a scripturally based reason why my in-depth explanations were wrong and then reconcile the verses I gave to the verses you gave with a logical explanation, you both just pretty much ignored my explanations and the scriptures I used to support them by giving a verse or two that seemingly contradicted what I wrote, which is not honest scholarship. The bottom line is, if I am the one who doesn’t understand Scripture, then why am I the one who can reconcile it?

          As far as what you believe as a Primitive Baptist, I wrote at one point that I came out of Mormonism, a religion like your own that believes that it also holds to the beliefs of the primitive church, just like Jehovah’s Witnesses do. You all make the same claim, and yet you don’t even agree with one another. I did get on your website, and your beliefs just don’t agree with the revealed Word of God. We could go back and forth, but I’ve been in so many dialogues with Mormons and JWs that I know that groups that make the claims that yours do “have a zeal for God, but not according to knowledge” (Rom. 10:2a). We could go back and forth, but I have no intention of spending my time writing the same thing over and over again like I did for those weeks and having it ignored. However, I’ll tell you what. If you want to discuss ONLY John 3:16 and tell me why you are right and I am wrong, then I will keep in touch with you.

          I look forward to hearing from you.

          Barbara

    • Hi PB~

      I’m glad that you responded, but I’m not sure why you didn’t tell me why I am wrong and you are right with regard to John 3:16. Providing verses that seemingly appear to contradict another verse without any explanation as to why they are a contradiction is proof texting, which is not how we, as believers, are to interpret Scripture. I very much want to have this dialogue with you, but it’s important that we do so to find God’s eternal truth, and this cannot be done if we spend our time throwing verses back and forth to each other that we think support our thinking without also providing the reasoning behind them. Three things need to guide both of us:
      ~The first is that we are given an absolute touchstone in our favorite verse, II Timothy 3:16, which guarantees us that there are no contradictions in God’s Word.
      ~The second is that we are given a personal command in II Timothy 2:15 to “Study to shew thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth.”
      ~The third is that we are given a promise in John 13:16a which tells us that “the Spirit of truth… will guide [us] into all truth.”

      What this all means, then, is that reconciling Scripture is not just something I have been commanded to do; it is something that you have also been commanded to do. You cited Romans 9:11-13 and Malachi 1:2-3, so that’s where we will begin our discussion. We will each spend a few days writing a logical explanation to reconcile these two verses with John 3:16.

      I think to be fair to each other that we need to post our responses on the same day. That way, one of us doesn’t spend weeks writing on the response while the other just waits. I don’t know what your schedule is, so would you have enough time to get your response written and posted by Monday? If not, let me know, and we can choose another day, okay? I’ll wait until I hear from you before I begin writing in case you decide that you don’t want to continue.

      I look forward to our dialogue, and I hope you have a blessed day!
      Barbara

  19. OK, Barbara. I’ll try. I have no problem investigating seemingly contradictory verses of scripture. I know there is no error in scripture (John 10:35). For the sake of not making all of this dreadful, let’s try to keep our answers short and to the point. I’m entering into this all with as open of a mind as I can have. But believe me, I’ve heard it all. I’ve grown-up, gone to school with, and heard all kinds of Christian views and interpretations of the Bible. Nothing has ever made me free like the truth preach by the Primitive Baptists. Once you understand salvation is by grace and grace alone and embrace rather than try to explain away the doctrines of election and predestination, you are free and free indeed (John 8:36).

    My thoughts on John 3:16:
    This verse of scripture is often taken out of context to attempt to prove that Jesus died for all the inhabitants of the world. Taken in context, Jesus is making a factual point to Nicodemus (a Jew who erroneously believed that eternal salvation was limited to the physical nation of the Jews) that God so loved the world (Greek kosmos : created order), and NOT just the Jews, that he gave His only begotten Son. The purpose of His Son being given was that whosoever, which is a definitive group and not mankind in general, believeth on him should not perish but have eternal life. The Greek word for believeth is pisteuo, which is the same root word for faith, and faith by definition is the gift of God (Eph. 2:8). The very belief / faith in the heart of those who believe is placed there by the mercy and grace of God. The fact that John 3:16 is not teaching that Jesus offered himself to all the inhabitants of the world is further confirmed by the fact that Jesus said that he who does not believe in this is condemned already (v.18), indicating the fallen state of mankind in Adam’s transgression (Rom.5:20). Furthermore, it is of the utmost importance to understand what “world” Jesus is referring. Christ declares in the same gospel of John 17:9, that, “I pray NOT for the world.” For example, in Lk. 2:1, the writer declares that Ceasar Augustus sent out a decree that “all the world should be taxed”. Obviously, Ceasar did not send tax collectors to pre-North America to collect taxes from the native Indians. Rather, he taxed the “world” that was under His jurisdiction. Jesus Christ could not have died for the general population of the world because that is not the “world” under consideration. Also, this would have contradicted the promise of Christ that ALL of His children would never perish (Jn. 10:28). If Christ offered himself for all the inhabitants of the world, then according to his promise, all the inhabitants of the world would be housed in heaven. On the contrary, Christ declared that he had power over ALL mankind, for the purpose of giving life to “as many as thou hast given him” (Jn. 17:2), and not all the inhabitants of the world. This relates back to that innumerable host of children that God the Father foreknew, predestinated, called justified, and glorified in His Son (Rom. 8:29-30). The world that God created was good in God’s eyes (Gen. 1) until mankind defiled that world with sin. God so loved this created order that He sent His Son to die for whosoever believes in him. Obviously, this is a factual statement and not a non-contextual offer.

    God Bless!

    • Hi PB,

      Just so I address all the points that you have brought up on John 3:16, is this all of your answer, or do you plan on writing more? If this is it, then I will have mine posted on Monday. If not, I will wait until you have written all you plan to so that I give a thorough answer. Let me know. Thanks!

      Barbara

  21. Hi PB~

    My plan was to have my response posted today, but it’s not going to happen. I ended up doing some things over the last few days that were unexpected, so I wasn’t able to spend the time writing. Also, even though you began with John 3:16, the comments and questions and Scripture references you followed it with also require additional explanation. I am trying to keep it as brief as possible, but I assume that you brought up these areas because they are of genuine concern to you, so I want to fully address them. I also watch my 14-month old grandson all day, so there’s only so much time that I can devote to this, so just to be on the safe side, I’m going to allow myself a couple more days. I will have it posted on Wednesday.

    Thanks for waiting. I hope you have a blessed day!
    Barbara

  22. Hi PB~

    Thank you for your response. I know this is long, but you gave a lot of points, issues, and verses for me to address, so I did. I tried to be brief when it was possible, but some of your statements needed longer explanations. I did something a little different with the last post you sent me. As you know, it can be confusing and time consuming to scroll up and down trying to find specific information while trying to write a response, especially with longer posts. Even though your last post wasn’t very long, I printed it off, and it was much easier to find the specific points that I needed. Maybe you already thought of doing this, but if not, it makes things go a lot easier, so I thought I would just pass it along.

    ~I will begin with your statement that “whosoever” is a “definitive group and not mankind in general.” If you look up the word “whosoever” in a dictionary, you will see that it is the archaic form of the word “whoever,” which means “any” or “no matter who,” both of which are indefinite. In John 3:16, it is the Greek word ‘pas’ (Strong’s G3956). Individually it means “each, every, any, all, the whole, everyone, all things, everything,” and collectively it means “some of all types.” The “whosoever” refers to “each and every” as an individual, as a group, or as a whole, and it will be the context that reveals which of these three is being discussed. In John 3:16, it is the “world” (kosmos, G2889) to which Jesus is referring. You are correct in saying that this word refers to God’s “created order;” however, this is only a general definition. As you know, most of the words in the Bible have multiple definitions, so we need the context in order to study the exact meaning and subtle nuances of each word through concordances and lexicons. In Strong’s Exhaustive Concordance, it is the third definition: “by metonymy, ‘the human race, mankind.’” In the BLB, the accompanying Thayer’s Lexicon lists it as the fifth definition: “the inhabitants of the world…particularly the inhabitants of the earth, men, the human race.” The correct reading of John 3:16, then, is “For God so loved the [inhabitants of the earth, men, the human race], that he gave his only begotten son, that [each, every, any, or all who] believeth in him should not perish, but have eternal life.” This truth is further supported in Hebrews 2:9 which says, “But we see Jesus, who was made a little lower than the angels for the suffering of death, crowned with glory and honour; that he by the grace of God should taste death for EVERY MAN” (pas, Strong’s G3956, caps mine).

    ~This section is somewhat long, but a longer explanation is necessary because the understanding of it is crucial to what we are discussing. Some of its length is also due to a portion of a previous post that I have included.

    Although the words “faith” and “believeth” have the same root word as you wrote, Ephesians 2:8 isn’t saying that “faith by definition is the gift of God.” It is saying that it is THROUGH our faith (belief) that we RECEIVE the gift of God, which is the salvation freely given by God’s grace in contrast to a salvation that we would try and earn through our works, which would lead one to boast (v. 9). Paul states this truth another way in Romans 4:4-5: “Now to him that worketh is the reward not reckoned of grace, but of debt. But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness.” With all due respect, there is no way that either of these excerpts can be interpreted to mean that “faith by definition is the gift of God” because the language used is not vague at all. Interpretations such as these are put forth to support a theology that rids human beings of any involvement in their salvation because, then, it is asserted, it is no more grace, but Scripture just doesn’t support the interpretations that lead to this conclusion. It is not, as you have written, that I don’t “understand that salvation is by grace and grace alone” but that I have taken the whole council of God into account when formulating my opinion. I wrote on this very topic in my February 14 post to Frank in which I wrote the following:

    “First, I absolutely believe that our salvation is God’s work, alone, that He and He only saves because He is the only one capable of saving. The first act of His saving grace, as I wrote on February 4 to you, is to draw people to Him (Jn. 6:44), and as I wrote to PB, is to knock on our hearts (Rev. 3:20) because there is nothing within us that seeks Him (Ps. 14:3, Is. 53:6, Rom. 3:10, Eph. 2:5). Our participation is solely to accept God’s call upon our lives as I wrote on February 8. We must “believeth” (Jn. 3:16) and “confess” (Rom. 10:9) and “call upon the name of the Lord” (Rom. 10:13). He alone draws; we accept; He alone saves. This is totally in keeping with Ephesians 2:8-9 and Isaiah 64:6 which equates our righteousness to “filthy rags, in reference to menstruation. I hope this clears up your misconception about how I view salvation, that I “see that it was more [me] establishing this relationship” because I neither stated nor implied such. In an attempt to discredit what I wrote, PB wrote on February 9 that “prayer” and “belief” are “works of righteousness” because technically, they are something we “do.” My response to that is just because I “do” something doesn’t mean that it automatically comes under the heading of “works of righteousness.” A work of righteousness is something that I would do and offer to God, expecting my sins to be covered by it in order to be saved and allowed into God’s kingdom. Rather than being that, our acts of believing, confessing, and calling, which are biblically commanded, are the exact opposite; they are our acknowledgment to the Lord that we are in need of salvation and then our asking Him to save us because we recognize that we can’t save ourselves. It is this free will to either accept or reject God’s call upon our lives, initially, and it’s this same free will that allows us to continue to accept of reject God’s call upon our lives. It’s what gives God’s plan of salvation its integrity.”

    In addition to what I have written above, I also came across an online article to be considered in our discussion. It is entitled “What do Primitive Baptists Believe?” by Elder Charles Taylor. In the second paragraph of page 7, he writes, “A person may say that he believes in salvation by grace, but if he sets forth any act of man’s will, such as repentance, faith, baptism, or hearing the gospel as a condition for obtaining it, then this position must be put on the works side. Primitive Baptist[s] believe salvation is of the Lord, it is by His grace, and nothing needs to be added to it.” In the next paragraph, he says that the four things listed are “works salvation” that take place after a person “comes alive.” Taking only the first two actions on his list, repentance and faith, this author is saying that they do not have a place in a person’s salvation, but what does the Word of God say?

    ~”REPENT ye therefore, and BE CONVERTED, that your sins may be blotted out, when the times of refreshing shall come from the presence of the Lord” (Acts 3:19, caps mine).
    ~“I tell you, Nay: but, except ye repent, ye shall all likewise perish” (Lk. 13:3, read context)
    ~And the times of this ignorance God winked at; but now commandeth all [pas, G3956] men every where to repent” (Acts 17:30).

    ~“Jesus said to her, “I am the resurrection and the life. [fn] Whoever believes in me, though he die, yet shall he live” (Jn. 11:25).
    ~“And they said, BELIEVE on the Lord Jesus Christ, and thou SHALT BE SAVED, and thy house” (Acts 16:31, caps mine).
    ~“Therefore [it is] of faith, that [it might be] by grace; to the end the promise might be sure to all the seed; not to that only which is of the law, but to that also which is of the faith of Abraham; who is the father of us all” (Rom. 4:16). The “it” is, of course, salvation, and this verse is saying that God’s grace can only be accessed through our faith, meaning that our faith comes first, before salvation.
    ~“That IF thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved” (Rom. 10:9, caps mine).

    According to what Primitive Baptists believe, any action originating from the will of man with regard to his salvation cannot be considered as valid within the idea God’s grace because they are all considered ‘works of righteousness’ that negate the grace of God. With this in mind, please explain the biblical commands to “believe (have faith)”s to “confess,” to “call upon the name of the Lord,” and to “repent” as conditions of salvation.

    ~You are right when you say that Ceasar didn’t tax “native Indians” but only “taxed the ‘world’ that was under his jurisdiction.” However, Luke didn’t use the word ‘kosmos’ for the word “world” but a totally different word, ‘oikoumene’ (Strong’s, G3625), which specifically refers to “the Roman empire” and “all the subjects of this empire” (Lk. 2:1, Thayer’s, 1b).

    ~While Jesus does say in John 17:9b, “I pray not for the world,” this statement must be read in context of the whole chapter. It’s not that He’s not praying for the world; it’s that He’s not praying for the world in that portion of His prayer. By structuring His prayer in this manner, we are given insight in how we are to pray, for what we are to pray, and for whom we are to pray. In this prayer before offering Himself as a sacrifice for the world’s sin, He makes a point of praying very specifically. In verses 1-5, He prays for Himself. In verses 6-19, He prays for His disciples, and in verses 20-26, He prays for all future believers, including, as verse 20 says, “…for them also which shall believe on me through their [the disciples’] word.” As our teacher and role model, we, too, are to pray for ourselves, other believers, and non-believers. Read in the context of what the Greek reveals as the truth of John 3:16, this last group is very much all the unsaved inhabitants of the world.

    ~You wrote that had the word “world” meant “the general population” that this “would have contradicted the promise of Christ that ALL of His children would never perish (Jn. 10:28).” This is a very loaded sentence because there are several different doctrines included in it, each requiring a different explanation. I am going to answer each one separately although they obviously need to be understood as a whole.

    1. I’ve already addressed the specific meanings of the word “world” in several places, so there should be no confusion on that unless you can show me where I have misunderstood the Greek in the sources I used.

    2. While understanding that you don’t agree that the “general population” is the same as the “world,” you have, in your statement, defined the “general population” of the world as being “ALL of [Christ’s] children.” Let me first say that no where in Scripture does it say that we are born children of God; on the contrary, it says the exact opposite, that we are all sinners deserving of death (Rom. 3:23, 6:23 respectively). (I already discussed children and the mentally handicapped in an earlier post). This is the entire point of the gospel and salvation message. It is true that we are His creation, but because of the Fall, we are no more created in the image of God (Gen. 1:26) with regard to our spirituality but of Adam (5:3). Consequently, the word “children” can only be applied to those who are born again of God according to John 3:5-7. It is to these people that the following verses apply:

    “For ye have not received the spirit of bondage again to fear; but ye have received the Spirit of adoption, whereby we cry, Abba, Father” (Rom. 8:15). Additionally, verse 16 contradicts the Primitive Baptist belief that says that people cannot know whether they are saved: “The Spirit itself beareth witness with our spirit, that we are the children of God.”
    “But as many as received him, to them gave the power to become the sons of God, [even] to them that believe on his name” (Jn. 1:12).

    3. John 10:28 does say that the sheep mentioned in verse 27, who follow Christ, will receive eternal life. Verses 28 and 29 also say that no man will able to pluck them out of Christ’s or the Father’s hand, respectively. This is the portion of your statement that will require quite a bit of attention to detail always remembering that we are to look at the whole of Scripture when formulating doctrines. In order to understand the truth of these verses, we need to back up for a minute to the cross. Christ’s death on the cross did not provide salvation for the world; it provided the potential for salvation for the world as the following verses attest:

    “For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him MIGHT be saved” (Jn. 3:17, caps mine).
    “And with all deceivableness of unrighteousness in them that perish; because they received not the love of the truth, that they MIGHT be saved” (II Th. 2:10). ( caps mine).
    Read also John 5:34, Romans 10:1, and I Thessalonians 2:16.

    What is proven in these verses is that not everyone will be saved although Christ did provide the way (Jn. 14:6, Rom. 5:6-8, II Cor. 5:14, I Pet. 2:24) by which all people (Jn. 3:16, Heb. 2:9) can be saved if they “believe,” “confess,” “repent,” and “call upon the name of the Lord” as I’ve cited. As you know, there is no “might” in the theology of Primitive Baptists because their understanding is that the elect merely “come alive,” enabling them to recognize the salvation they’ve always had. Considering that II Corinthians 5:14b says that “if one died for all, then were all dead” and Romans 8:7 says that our “carnal mind [is] enmity against God,” we are talking about a spiritual situation that witnesses to our total separation from a holy God. What we recognize, then, when we are born again into the kingdom of God, is not that we have been saved all along but that we have been sinners all along. We do not “come alive;” we are “made alive” (I Cor. 15:22). That is why we are told in II Corinthians 5:17, “Therefore if any man [be] in Christ, [he is] a new creature: old things are passed away; behold, all things are become new.” It isn’t our awareness that changes but our positioning to God as Romans 5:1 says, “Therefore being justified by faith, we have peace WITH God [not OF God] through our Lord Jesus Christ” (caps mine). We have been reconciled to the Father through the blood of the Son (Jn. 14:6).

    John 10:28-29 cannot be used to support the doctrines of election and predestination as you interpret them or your understanding of Romans 8:29-30, and there are a couple reasons. First, John 3:16 disproves it. Secondly, even those people who are truly children of God by reason of being born again according to the biblical that I have cited can actually lose their salvation (I provide quite a few examples of this truth in my post to Frank on February 18, so you can read them there). Part of what is being put forth in verses 28-29 is our guarantee of God’s faithfulness to keep His end of the covenant that He will give eternal life. What is also being put forth is God’s Word regarding His power and sovereignty, which I also discuss in that same post to Frank. The part that you are leaving out of your consideration is verse 27: “My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me” (also read I Cor. 9:24, Phl. 3:14). There are many verses that bring this verse full circle but none better than Matthew 24:13 which says, “But he that shall endure unto the end, the same shall be saved.” In other words, it’s not about election or predestination or making an initial commitment to God and becoming saved; it’s about persevering to the end, whether the end of one’s life or the end of the world. These are the sheep who will receive eternal life. Not only does this disprove the Primitive Baptists understanding of election and predestination but the sequence put forth in Romans 8:29-30. Unfortunately, there is a great deal of misinformation regarding man’s salvation, some of which claims that once a person makes an initial commitment to the Lord that he or she is always saved, but as the Scripture I cited in my post to Frank proves, this is just not biblically sound. While the sequence in verses 29-30 is true, it can only be understood within the context of the whole of Scripture as well as within the beginning of verse 28, “ And we know that all things work together for good to them TO THEM THAT LOVE GOD” (caps mine). It is these people, the sheep of John 10:27, who will experience the sequence in Romans 29-30. In these verses, God gives us greater insight into what He meant when He said, “For I know the thoughts that I think toward you, saith the LORD, thoughts of peace, and not of evil, to give you an expected end” (Jer. 29:11).

    ~John 17:2 does say that Christ will give eternal life to as many as the Father has given Him, but Scripture clarifies two things. First, the only ones the Father gives Jesus are those who have answered affirmatively to God’s call upon their lives (Rev. 3:20). Secondly, the only ones who will receive eternal life are those who have endured to the end (Matt. 24:13).

    I know that this response is long, but it is so very important to be clear when coming to an understanding of just what God’s Word says with regard to God’s grace, salvation, and man’s actions. I’m grateful that you have agreed to “[investigate] seemingly contradictory verse of scripture” because that is the only way we can know the exact truth that God is giving us. I would like to add one thing. In my original (after coming back) response to you, I wrote that we discuss only John 3:16, and I had meant that literally because the understanding of that one verse can put many doctrines into perspective. In addition to John 3:16, your response, although not particularly long, contained quite a few scriptures and issues that you wanted addressed, which is fine. I am glad to have this dialogue with you, so I answered each verse and each point that you brought up. I would like to ask the same of you. Please just go down my response point by point like I did with yours and address each one. That way we can stay on track and not become overwhelmed. I know that there is a lot to study, so please take your time.

    I pray that God will bless each one of us while we seek the truth of His Word according to John 16:13.

    Have a blessed day!

    Barbara

  23. Barbara,

    Thanks for your response. Frankly, I don’t need a lot of time to respond to yours. I believe the truth defends itself in a very efficient way. Hence your long drawn out answers and my short definitive answers. You are having a hard time coming up with good, sound responses. I know this because you are having to draw my attention away from the verses so much and take other verses out of their contexts to try and make them work for your misguided interpretation. However, pressing on, I’ll address the things that are fundamental that I see you clearly don’t have an understanding of, here.

    First of all, why do you believe that the Bible only speaks of an eternal salvation? To automatically and presumptuously assume that each time the words “save/saved/salvation” are used in scripture means it has eternal implications is creating a very confused doctrine. If that were so, you contradict yourself in saying that Romans 10:1 speaks of eternal salvation when Paul says that they clearly have a zeal of God in Romans 10:2. How can one have a zeal of God if God has not already given them spiritual life? How can a dead man do anything of God? After all, this whole blog we’ve been commenting on speaks the fact that we must be quickened first! (Eph. 2:1) You see, you’d put everyone in hell who has never heard the gospel, who have never been preached to, if you try to make that salvation an eternal salvation, we read further down that “For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved. How then shall they call on him in whom they have not believed? and how shall they believe in him of whom they have not heard? and how shall they hear without a preacher?” Romans 10:13&14. That’s putting the unborn, the mentally challenged, the foreign and uncivilized who live in solitude in an eternal hell. You said Christ died for everyone yet, you say Paul says that you must hear the gospel in order to confess unto salvation for eternal life. I believe that salvation is speaking of a salvation from IGNORANCE. He knew they were already saved. They were already saints. He says so in chapter 1. He is speaking to already born again children of God. He is telling them of a NOW salvation because Paul knew they were already bearing the fruit of the spirit (Gal 5:22&23).
    The Bible is chock full of what is known as a timely or temporal salvation. Take, also, the verse you mentioned in Acts 16:31. The story of the trembling jailer is taken so often out of context to try to finagle it into a message of eternal salvation, but the story if quite clear the jailer trembled and feared for his own NATURAL life. If you understand what the consequences of a Roman soldier even possibly losing one of his prisoners meant, you’d fear for your life, too. But Paul told him to do himself no harm, for they all were present (Acts 16:28). Even though he had an assurance that none of the prisoners would escape, you try convincing yourself that if something that catastrophic had happened to you that you’d take the simple words of “do thyself no harm: for we all are here” as enough. The jailer was about to kill himself. He knew nothing about Jesus because Paul later preached to him. This is NOT eternal salvation in question it is quite clear that the jailer wanted to know how to save his natural life from the possible threat of being executed under Roman law.
    Not to mention, it is not simply by (from what I understand that Arminians believe) ONE MAN confessing Jesus Christ that a WHOLE HOUSE would be saved eternally. You do understand that had anything happened to the jailer then his whole house (family) would have had no one to provide for them?
    Don’t you call on Jesus to save your natural flesh, as well? When you’re sick? or when you’re in trouble? Sure you do!
    So he took them and preached to them Jesus Christ and then they were baptized. They then were saving themselves, NOT ETERNALLY, but from this UNTOWARD GENERATION (Acts 2:40&41). There is a salvation in believing Christ and being baptized. Peter says it is a salvation from this untoward (inappropriate) generation and Paul says that there is a salvation in learning and believing in Christ and that is a salvation from ignorance.
    Don’t limit the Bible to just eternal salvation. It speaks more of timely/temporal/now salvation than any other kind. If you take this understanding and RIGHTLY DIVIDE the WORD OF TRUTH then you will come to a whole new world of understanding. Truth is, you can’t make what you believe fit. I’ve seen you try and it’s not pretty.
    I would like to address where you stated that Primitive Baptists believe we just “Come Alive”. That is ignorant and unlearned. We do not simply believe we just “Come Alive” nor does anyone I know teach or preach such foolishness. We are MADE ALIVE by Christ Jesus “My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me:” John 10:27.
    Christ tells us Himself that the work of belief is the Father’s work “Jesus answered and said unto them, This is the work of God, that ye believe on him whom he hath sent.” John 6:29.
    You say that salvation is my choice? Christ says “All that the Father giveth me shall come to me; and him that cometh to me I will in no wise cast out.” John 6:37 But hold on a second, before you think that’s part God and part you, He later says “No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day.” John 6:44. Proof and evidence that Christ completes the work of salvation (eternally speaking) from beginning to end. Those men, even though they saw Christ in the flesh, they didn’t believe. Explain that. If they had the “potential” like you stated above, then why didn’t they? He told others TO THEIR FACE that they were OF THEIR FATHER THE DEVIL. Barbara, there is no way around election and predestination.
    Jacob has he loved and Esau has he hated.
    Your determined understand of John 3:16: “For God so loved the [inhabitants of the earth, men, the human race], that he gave his only begotten son, that [each, every, any, or all who] believeth in him should not perish, but have eternal life.” I agree with your interpretation. Because no man can believe on Jesus Christ as the son of God unless he has already been saved. Christ came to save all of His family “And she shall bring forth a son, and thou shalt call his name JESUS: for he shall save his people from their sins.” Matthew 1:21. There’s no if’s and’s or but’s about that. Christ died for His people and they have been saved. Not one will be lost “For I am persuaded, that neither death, nor life, nor angels, nor principalities, nor powers, nor things present, nor things to come,Nor height, nor depth, nor any other creature, shall be able to separate us from the love of God, which is in Christ Jesus our Lord.” Romans 8:38&39.
    You believe you must PERSEVERE in good works to be saved but Paul just shut down your theory with the above verse, not to mention Jude 1 says it’s not a perseverance that saves us from ever falling away from Christ but rather Christ who has PRESERVED His saints from Adam to the very last child of God conceived.
    There’s another question I have for you. If everyone who is to be saved then must ask Jesus to save them why would Jesus ever come back to take us to heaven? There is always a “potential”, as you have said, for one more person to come to Christ!
    Rather, I believe it is that Christ knows His sheep (John 10:14,27), He knows them that are His (2 Tim. 2:19), those that are elect according to the foreknowledge of God (1 Pet 1:2). I could go on and on.
    One last thing I will mention. Don’t be so sure about your studies. A person like you who says “I have taken the whole council of God into account when formulating my opinion.” Shouldn’t make such statements as “With all due respect, there is no way that either of these excerpts can be interpreted to mean that ‘faith by definition is the gift of God'”. You are contrary to God’s Word. Because if you had really “taken the whole council of God into account” then you would have come across these verses explaining where FAITH COMES FROM:
    “For I say, through the grace given unto me, to every man that is among you, not to think [of himself] more highly than he ought to think; but to think soberly, according as God hath dealt to every man the measure of faith.” Rom 12:3
    That “every man” should be taken in context, because it speaks of “every man that is among you”.
    Not everyone has faith. It’s not something you can just choose to pick up.
    “And that we may be delivered from unreasonable and wicked men: for all [men] have not faith.” 2 Thessalonians 3:2
    If every man had the “potential” to be saved then why did they want to be delivered from unreasonable and wicked men? Why didn’t they preach to them? Because they had no faith. God had not dealt faith for them. Faith, a fruit of the spirit, only comes once we have been born again. That new birth only happens once the Spirit moves upon us. Regeneration WILL occur in every child of God sometime between conception and death. Read Titus 3:5-7.

    So much confusion in what you have told me. It appears to be a hodgepodge of Calvinism (perseverance of the saints) Arminianism (salvation by works) and private interpretation. But, if you’re happy, then ok. My point all along has been that you don’t have to believe like me for Christ to work His redemption in you. However, your beliefs seem to be quite grievous. It appears you have fallen into Phariseeism. You tell me you believe everyone MUST CONFESS Jesus Christ in order to be saved. How is that any different than keeping a law? Christ came to fulfill the law because we COULDN’T. He also came to save us because we couldn’t save ourselves. At the heart of the issue lies a problem, you don’t take Ephesians 2:8 seriously. You add “but’s” onto it. Completely free grace means absolutely nothing if you attach a stipulation such as “but you must hear and believe the gospel and ask Jesus to come into your heart” Jacobus Arminius started that teaching in the 17th century and since then many churches have borrowed his erroneous belief. If you do enough research, you’ll find that the Primitive Baptists have been known by many names throughout the gospel age but one thing has remained the same since John the Baptist, the one crying in the wilderness, and have had church succession ever since Christ and the apostles. Not only have I given you biblical evidence that salvation is to God’s elect only by the grace of God but I can also give you historical evidence (if you would like) of the fact that we have believed this ever since John the Baptist. No other church can do that. Your way of thinking is approximately 350 years old compared to the Baptist beliefs which are almost 2000 years old. Consider the fact that you have been taught wrong.

    I hope this has helped. I am growing weary, however. Everything you’ve said to me I’ve heard from others who believe just like you do. One thing is for sure, you believe what you believe. That doesn’t make it right. Study the topic of timely/temporal salvation. Things will start to make better sense for you. It has for me.

    God bless.

  24. One last thing. I apologize for perhaps sounding contentious. That was not my intent. However, I want to reference one other thing you mentioned. You’re still hung up that Revelation 3:20 is speaking about eternal salvation. I’ve addressed this issue in an earlier post. Christ was giving instruction TO A CHURCH OF BELIEVERS. This was NO instruction of how to obtain eternal life (and has nothing to do with John 10:27 like to referenced in your post) but rather a call to FELLOWSHIP Christ in His church. Listen, Jesus doesn’t beg His people to accept Him. He doesn’t weep over someone He loves going to Hell, because that WILL NOT HAPPEN. What He does give us FREE WILL to do is to SERVE HIM. Laodicea Church had left their first love and was in danger of losing their status as a church. They had become lazy in serving Christ and Christ said that He would fellowship them if one of His children (which believed on Him already) would but take initiative and get busy serving Christ. This is another example of timely salvation.
    You also put stipulations on whom the Father had given the Son “~John 17:2 does say that Christ will give eternal life to as many as the Father has given Him, but Scripture clarifies two things. First, the only ones the Father gives Jesus are those who have answered affirmatively to God’s call upon their lives (Rev. 3:20).” God the Father gave His Son His people BEFORE THE WORLD BEGAN
    “Who hath saved us, and called [us] with an holy calling, not according to our works, but according to his own purpose and grace, which was given us in Christ Jesus before the world began,” 2 Tim 1:9
    You can’t say God looked down upon the earth to see who would choose Him and those would be the ones He saved, I know you would because you mentioned it last month in the earlier posts, but God has addressed that issue in His word.
    Psalm 14:1-3 “The fool hath said in his heart, [There is] no God. They are corrupt, they have done abominable works, [there is] none that doeth good. The LORD looked down from heaven upon the children of men, to see if there were any that did understand, [and] seek God.They are all gone aside, they are [all] together become filthy: [there is] none that doeth good, no, not one.”
    Paul also says it in Romans 3:10-12
    “As it is written, There is none righteous, no, not one: There is none that understandeth, there is none that seeketh after God. They are all gone out of the way, they are together become unprofitable; there is none that doeth good, no, not one.”
    So it isn’t because God looked down to see who would choose Him. No, it is only and sovereignly by His grace that He has shown mercy. It’s not because I repented “As concerning the gospel, [they are] enemies for your sakes: but as touching the election, [they are] beloved for the fathers’ sakes. For the gifts and calling of God [are] without repentance.” Romans 11:28&29.
    Last, but not least. I havesaid in the past but never will again say that I know without a shadow of a doubt that I will go to heaven. If you can show me where any saint of God ever said that in the Bible then I will retract my statement. No one every said they knew they would go to heaven, but repeatedly we see where Paul said he had a HOPE. Hope (Strong’s G1680 elpis meaning “joyful and confident expectation of eternal salvation”) is an earnest and joyful expectation. If you truly believe God is sovereign, then you will never assume you’re 100% sure you know without a shadow of a doubt that you are going to heaven, because not even Paul said that. God could change His will and it would still be perfect. In fact, He could change it and change time and you’d never even know about it. That’s how SOVEREIGN God is. But like Paul said in 1 Thessalonians 5:8, Titus 1:2, Titus 3:7, Romans 5:2, Romans 8:24, 1 Corinthians 15:19, Colossians 1:5, etc.
    If you know for sure you are redeemed without a shadow of a doubt and know that your name is written in the Lamb’s Book of Life then please, tell me what page you’ve seen it on? I believe every child of God has been given a hope, in Christ, and Christ, who cannot lie, will perform His work of redemption to the fullest when He returns and changes this body from sin into glory, likened unto His. That is my hope and that is the best I have, but it’s more than assuming I know that I am saved without a shadow of a doubt because no one really can know. God has the Book and He is the only one who loosens the seals “And they sung a new song, saying, Thou art worthy to take the book, and to open the seals thereof: for thou wast slain, and hast redeemed us to God by thy blood out of every kindred, and tongue, and people, and nation;” Revelation 5:9.
    See, God has a people who will be in heaven with Him out of every kindred (family), tongue (language), people (country), and nation (ethnicity). That’s more inclusive through God’s election than saying one must ask Christ into their heart or you must hear the gospel preached in order to be saved. God has taken care of it all and not one will be lost. Praise God!

  25. PB~

    As I wrote in my final paragraph, I had agreed to discuss “ONLY John 3:16,” and although you totally ignored my request, I addressed each and every verse and the multitude of points you brought up, which took me six days to complete because I wanted to be both clear and thorough. All I asked is that you extend the same courtesy to me, to address the verses and points in order so that we would stay on track and not get overwhelmed. Imagine my surprise, then, especially after your telling me that you have “no problem investigating seemingly contradictory verses of scripture” to find that you had posted your response, which was almost as long as mine, the very next day. Obviously, there is no way that you could have carefully researched and considered what I wrote and then prepared a reasoned response because you not only failed to reconcile my verses with yours, much of your response has nothing to do with anything I wrote.

    I got back into this dialogue because I thought you wanted to truthfully exchange ideas on specific doctrine, but your response, as I said, not only ignored what I wrote but included irrelevant topics, at least one of which I already answered in an earlier post which, by the way, you also ignored. You have every right to express what you believe, but the objective of this exchange was to consider and respond to what the other person had to say. Had you truly desired to fulfill your obligation, you would have taken the time to research what I wrote and responded to that, reconciling the verses rather than once-again proof texting. Having said this, however, I will put my offer out there just once more. If you would like to address the exact points and verses, in order, as I did with yours, then I will be happy to continue. I only ask that you refrain from casting dispersions on my character and the length of my writing, which are fallacies in logic used to attack the person rather than the issues. As to the last point, though, I can’t help but wonder what your real opinion of the Bible itself is, considering its length and the relatively few issues it really addresses. Apparently the Lord didn’t think that the way to communicate truth was solely in “short definitive answers.” I’m certainly not saying that there is anything wrong with these types of answers, only that there is also nothing wrong or suspect in lengthy ones, either. In addition, I have no interest in discussing what John Calvin or Jacob Arminius believed, why they believed it, or when they believed it. It is only to the writers of the New and Old Testaments to which we are to look because they were the ones inspired by the Holy Spirit. If this is agreeable to you, then I await your rewritten response. If not, then we are done.

    Barbara

    P.S. I just want to clear one issue up about my thoughts on the phrases “come alive” versus “made alive.” You wrote that it was “ignorant and unlearned.” In my defense, I took that phrase from the article that I cited written by Elder Taylor who is a Primitive Baptist. Phraseology aside, however, I still stand behind my opinion.

  26. Barbara,

    I only did comment on John 3:16 in my first post. You were the one who deviated from your premise of only keeping the topic on John 3:16. See my first post. What can I say? I apologize for my remarks about the difference between “come alive” and “made alive” and directing the “ignorant and unlearned” comment toward you. Apparently I should meet this Elder Taylor and exhort him in a better way.

    I know you have no interest in discussing what Arminius or Calvin believed. However, the truth is, your beliefs have their names written all over it, whether you intend it or not. My only issue with your discussions are that you set up the table by your rules and your rules only and when someone deviates you no longer want to address the main issue. Salvation by Grace and Grace Alone. Until you realize that you had absolutely nothing to do with your salvation and that you were simply a recipient of the grace of God (without asking for it, praying for it, or being led by a preacher) you will always be wrong. There is absolutely no way around “For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: [it is] the gift of God: Not of works, lest any man should boast.”
    You want to live a life more dependent upon the Lord and less on yourself? Try submitting to the FACT that you were saved wholly by His grace. There’s no two-ways around it. Either you believe the entire word of God or you don’t. Now the verses you gave to me about confession and repentance, I addressed all of those with two words “timely salvation”. I have been saved by many heartaches in life, many trials, many sorrows, many troubles in this world simply because I have repented of my sins and submitted my life unto the Lord for His service. I have confessed my sins to Christ and He alone is my advocate. But I stand by what Paul wrote in that second chapter of Ephesians and I take it completely for what it says. I was saved by grace, and not by my works. Our prayers are very much a work. Our repentance are very much a work. I’ve addressed these topics in earlier responses. Therefore, my prayers and confessions, my repentance, they are all works and have in no way reserved me a home in heaven. No, what they have done, though, has caused me to live a life and to live it more abundantly in Christ Jesus (John 10:10). Christ is the only one who could have saved us, any involvement on my end would completely corrupt His perfect work. I give all glory to God in my eternal salvation. You give 50% to Christ and 50% to yourself. That’s how it appears to me and many many others who refute the doctrines of Jacobus Arminius and the rest of the Arminian world. What I have tried to do is to civilly give examples of the doctrines of Grace from the Bible, and you have stubbornly turned your nose up to them. Remember, I’ve heard your doctrine and have tried it. It failed me. You know why? Your doctrine places the aborted, the infants who have died, the mentally handicapped, and those never preached to in an eternal hell. But what I hold to is the doctrine that God has not been limited to where man can only go preach, but He says that all His people shall know Him, from the least of them to the greatest of them because He has written His law upon their hearts and never once has required His people to do anything to obtain His salvation but He does command us to serve Him once we have been given life.(Heb 8:11, Jer. 31:34, 2 Cor. 3:3, Rom. 2:14-15) Praise God for His awesome and complete work. I believe it when He said “It is finished” (John 19:30).

    God bless.

  27. PB,

    I’ll take that as your answer. I won’t be logging onto this dialogue anymore, but I want you to know that I wish you well, and I will be praying for you.

    Barbara