New Testament on the Second Coming of Jesus (part 3)

Comments

1. Barbara LeFevre says

   March 20, 2013 at 4:52 pm

   Justin~

   Before I begin, I pray that you will receive this in the spirit in which it is given. I have the utmost respect for you and the knowledge and insights that you bring to this forum, but with all due respect, I think that on the issue of eternal security, you haven’t reconciled Scripture. While I understand that the main purpose of this teaching is to discuss the second coming of Jesus and the rapture, I believe that there are several points that you brought up in reference to the doctrine of eternal security. I know that the demands on your time have prevented you from reading and addressing the letter I sent you on this topic, but I think the importance of it, given your comments here, warrant some discussion. Below are two excerpts (in caps) from your teaching, followed by my comments.

   “THUS, WHEN PUT TOGETHER, ἈΠΟΣΤΑΣΊΑ (APOSTASIA) IS CLEARLY REFERRING TO ONE “MOVING AWAY FROM ONE POSITION TO ANOTHER.” THROUGHOUT THE NEW TESTAMENT, IT ALWAYS REFERS TO ONE “MOVING AWAY” FROM FAITH IN GOD AND OBEDIENCE TO HIM.”

   You cited five scriptural examples in which this “moving away” is “from faith in God and obedience to Him.” I’ll just use two of them because they speak for the other three: In Joshua 22:22, the word used is “mered” (Strong’s H4777), and it means “rebellion, defection” (Gesenuis’s), which, of course, is defection against Jehovah. In II Thessalonians 2:3, the word is “apostasia” (Strong’s G646), and it means “a falling away, defection, apostasy; in the Bible sc. from the true religion” (Thayer’s), again from Jehovah. I have a few questions:

   In all five of the examples you gave, the discourse is directed specifically to God’s chosen people. If believers cannot lose their salvation (apostatize), then why does God warn them that they can? In other words, if these warnings are only meant for people who are merely “church members,” wouldn’t we expect some kind of clarification so that the people whom you believe to be “true believers,” then and now, don’t have an incorrect understanding about Scripture?

   Given the definitions, please explain how people whom you referred to elsewhere as “pretenders,” can “move away” from “faith in God and obedience to Him” if they were never a “true believers” to begin with? How can the unsaved be described as “moving away from one position to another” when his or her position was always unsaved? From what is he or she moving away? Similarly, how can one “move away” or “defect” or “fall away” from obedience to God if he or she was never obedient to begin with?

   “WHEN WE DISCUSS THE MATTER OF “ENDURANCE” WITH REGARD TO OUR SALVATION, AND IN PARTICULAR WITH THE “END TIMES,” IT IS IMPORTANT TO MAKE A DISTINCTION BETWEEN WHAT MIGHT BE DESCRIBED AS THE “TRUE BELIEVER,” VERSUS THE ONE WHO IS AN “IMITATION BELIEVER.” IT IS THE LATTER WHO WILL BE AMONG THOSE WHO “FALL AWAY” DURING THE “APOSTASY” BEFORE THE “RAPTURE” OCCURS. IN LUKE 8:4-15, JESUS TALKS ABOUT THE “TRUE BELIEVER” AND THE “IMITATION BELIEVER.” FOR MORE ON THIS, VISIT MY PREVIOUS BLOG SERIES ON LUKE 8 AND THE FOUR SOILS.”

   Correct me if I’m wrong, but in your explanation following your reference to Matthew 24:13, it seems to me that you are trying to link the idea of endurance with the parable in Luke 8 to justify eternal security and that it is only the “imitation believer” who will “fall away,” but I honestly don’t see the connection. Matthew 24:13 says, “But he that shall endure unto the end, the same shall be saved.” There are only two possibilities, both of which pose problems with the idea of eternal security. Jesus is either referring to whom you call “true believers” or whom you call an “imitation believer.” If He’s referring to the former, then why would He teach a conditional salvation, that true believers have to endure to be saved if there is no possibility that they won’t be saved? If He’s referring to the latter, then it raises the question as to why He’s saying that the unsaved, the imitation believer, will be saved if they endure to the end because, not only won’t they be enduring anything at anytime, even if they do make it to the end, they still aren’t going to be saved. I’ve included a small portion of my letter here for your consideration:

   The reasoning that you and others use to support the idea of eternal security is that all “true believers” will inherit the kingdom of God, so if one does not inherit the kingdom of God, he was never a “true believer” to begin with. While it logically stands to reason that only true believers will ultimately inherit the kingdom of God, the second part of your premise, the assertion that those who don’t enter the kingdom of God were never “true believers” to begin with is fallacious because you have, either through misinterpreting or eliminating Scripture, disallowed any contradictory evidence as a matter of definition. It is the “No True Scotsman” fallacy. For example, it is biblically true, as you wrote, that God disciplines His children, what you phrased as “He will convict us as His children” and that it is “through His loving discipline,” I Corinthians 11:32 and Revelation 3:19 testifying to this truth. However, the fallacy comes into play when, by definition, you excluded all those people who don’t submit to God’s correction as never really having been “true” believers to begin with as when you wrote the following:

   ~ “I can tell you that for anyone who is a true believer in Jesus Christ, this truth will become a part of their lives”
   ~ “…for a true believer, God’s sanctifying work will produce His desired fruit in His time in their life.”
   ~ “…if someone is living a lifestyle that is consistently opposed to following Jesus, and there is no “discipline” of the Lord in their lives, leading to brokenness and repentance, then that person is not a true, born again believer in Jesus.”

   In these examples, the word “true” is used to avoid the implications of the counter-example, that certain people (believers) are capable of doing certain things (e.g. not submitting to God’s discipline). You have reinterpreted or eliminated legitimate, contradictory evidence so that anyone who doesn’t receive salvation was never a true believer (TB) to begin with. All other people are relegated into the category of a “non-believing ‘church member[s],’” a fallacy which demands that either one is a “true believer” or merely a “church member.” No thought is given that there might be another reasonable alternative, that there are people who are saved, who are believers, true believers, who choose, through apathy or rebellion, to leave the truth, something that is unmistakable in the examples I have given if nothing is added or taken away from them.

   One of the most prevalent ideas that you put forth to challenge the idea that TBs can lose their salvation is that God disciplines His children, and you used Hebrews 12 as the main source to prove me wrong. I absolutely agree with you that Scripture says that God will discipline His children in order for them to “share his holiness” (v. 10) and that those children who don’t accept His correction are not sons (v. 8), which I will clarify shortly. Where your reasoning is in error, however, is in your conclusion that because God disciplines His children, that all His children will, in fact, subject themselves to it. Not only is there is no Scripture that states or implies that this will happen, we know from the OT and from our own human experiences that children do not always submit to their father’s correction, even eventually, so to say that all believers will eventually do so to their Father in heaven is very much mistaken. That is a false premise that must be maintained in order for the doctrine of eternal security to remain viable. In addition, we must also understand that the distinction that is being made in this chapter is not that people who don’t receive chastisement were never saved to begin with, which is the point you are trying to make, because the very reason a person receives correction, according to this chapter, is because he or she IS a believer. We know from Galatians 4:5b that upon being born again, we “receive the adoption of sons,” and this, obviously, is before any correction by God. After that, of course, we are corrected, and corrected repeatedly, and we are told, “If ye endure chastening, God dealeth with you as with sons; for what son is he whom the father chasteneth not” (v. 7)? Yes, those people who do receive chastisement and do endure to the end will become true sons of God in the sense they reflect the Son of God, Jesus Christ, Who is coming for a “glorious church, not having spot, or wrinkle, or any such thing; but that it should be holy and without blemish” (Eph. 5:27b). You are right as far as your reasoning goes, here. However, as I have shown, this truth cannot be used as proof that those who refuse correction were never saved to begin with. The truth is that all kinds of things can happen in the life of a believer, and the reason they are given so many explicit warnings about the perils of not persevering, of not maturing beyond the fundamentals, of not cleansing their hands of the sin, of not being singularly minded toward God, of not growing in the grace and knowledge of Jesus Christ, of not crucifying the flesh, and of not bearing fruit is not so they won’t lose their rewards but so they won’t lose their salvation.

   In addition, throughout your response you referenced Hebrews 12:10 which says that TBs will “share His holiness.” You are absolutely correct. This is God’s plan exactly, but your conclusion that once a person becomes born again, a TB, that this person will absolutely realize the plans that God has for him or her is proven false by your very words at the end of section (b): “I must choose daily.” As I have written throughout my responses, it is a choice. It is a choice to ask Jesus to author our faith, and it is a choice to have Jesus be the finisher of our faith, and you cannot simultaneously say that TBs have free will to “choose daily” and then deny that that they cannot choose the wrong path. That is both illogical and biblically unsound, and this is the precise reason that believers are told, “Quench not the Spirit” (I Th. 5:19). It is because they can, at any level of maturity, or at any point in their walk, quench the Spirit, and there is not one Scripture in God’s entire Word that states or implies that there is a cap on a true believer’s quenching of the Spirit, thereby preventing him or her from losing his or her salvation. One of the greatest examples of this truth is the story of the Israelites in the OT about which God had much to say in the NT, for example in Hebrews 3:7-19, which you didn’t address except for verse 14. This was one of my examples, but perhaps you didn’t read that particular post.

   I thank you for taking the time to read and consider my comments, and I would appreciate your thoughts.

   I pray that God will continue to open our eyes as we seek the truth of His Word.

   God bless you richly~
   Barbara

   • Bob Demyanovich says

     March 21, 2013 at 2:40 am

     2Cr 13:4-6
     Examine yourselves, your trust is in Him or you are unsaved. This much is irrefutable.
     1Jo 4:12-21, Eph 1:4-14

     • Barbara LeFevre says

       March 21, 2013 at 5:35 am

       Bob~

       Exactly. The idea of trust and how it shapes our actions and eventually our salvation is the very point being put forth in Hebrews 3. This is why we are to examine ourselves as you have written. I didn’t include chapter 4, but it is a continuation of thought about how one’s faith can lead believers to enter God’s rest and how one’s lack of faith can prevent believers from entering it. This last point is driven home in two verses. In verse 1, the phrase “come short” (hystereo, Strong’s, G5302) means “to come late or too tardily”…to be left behind in the race and so fail to reach to goal, to fall short of the end…metaph. fail to become a partaker” (Thayer’s). In verse 11, the word “fall” (pipto, Strong’s, G4098) is “to fail in participating in, miss a share in, the Messianic salvation” (Thayer’s). In addition to these two definitions, God has given us a great and clear witness in chapters 3-4 of what can happen to God’s chosen people when they don’t continue to trust in Him and examine themselves after they have experienced salvation.

       Have a blessed day~
       Barbara

2. Tess says

   March 20, 2013 at 5:40 pm

   This is SUCH a great post and so very true and straight to the point. We can’t stand around like a bunch of mavens staring up into the sky.

   We need to go spread the Good News of the Gospel. I study Eschatology quite a bit but what’s going to happen will happen with and/or without my understanding it. My job is to look at and for the people who still need to accept Him as their Savior.

   As a lark once, when in Wal-Mart with my son,”I said watch this,” and I began to look up. My son also looked up and before too long person after person was looking up to try and figure out what everyone was looking at. This caused a congestion in the isles and I quit and went on about my way. Nifty thing, the power of suggestion but it can cause chaos. Of course it was wrong for me to do that but we’d been talking earlier about the power of suggestion, mob mentality issues and peer pressure type issues. We giggled but in truth it can be a distraction that causes others to push their carts into the display some Wal-Mart worker worked hard to set up. 🙂

   • Barbara LeFevre says

     March 21, 2013 at 4:33 am

     Tess~

     I certainly hope that you are going to continue our dialogue on the March 8 blog. I addressed your objections about Simon (Mar. 18 post), and I would like to know your thoughts. Thanks.

     Have a blessed day~
     Barbara

3. Tess says

   March 21, 2013 at 8:02 am

   Tts 3; Pro 14; Eze 13
   I’m sorry Barbara but I will not debate with contentious people.

   • Barbara LeFevre says

     March 21, 2013 at 10:04 am

     Tess~

     I certainly don’t know everything, but one thing I do know is that when people have the truth, they are able to provide relevant Scripture and sound argument, not only to support their view but to refute the contradictory view. One of the biggest tragedies in the body of Christ today is that some believers, rather than acknowledging that maybe they don’t know something, will resort to the worldly tactic of name calling. How this must sadden our Savior.

     Barbara

     • Tess says

       March 21, 2013 at 5:39 pm

       Barbara,
       You’re harassment and baiting techniques are not going to work and they have been reported. I am requesting you stop harassing me.

       • Bob Demyanovich says

         March 22, 2013 at 2:56 am

         What’s in a name? I use my name rather than a pseudonym to wholly identify with the testimony of Jesus. My first prayer is for forgiveness that God has gifted for His purposes and His glory, of my intrusions, offense and unrighteousness. The love of God objects to my judgment or my position regarding anyone else. I cannot pretend to know for someone else so I share. I am selfish in that I hope not to lose the benefit of reasoning and discourse offered on these blogs.

         1Cr 13:4 Charity suffereth long, [and] is kind
         1Cr 13:7 Beareth all things, believeth all things, hopeth all things, endureth all things.

         • Tess says

           March 22, 2013 at 12:00 pm

           Thank you Bob,
           Your love and sharing of God’s love is clearly evidenced in your posts and so very encouraging.
           God bless you

       • Barbara LeFevre says

         March 22, 2013 at 8:39 am

         Tess~

         Because this is an open forum, I will continue to respond to inconsistencies that I believe do not fully express the truth of God’s Word. You are certainly welcome, as well as obligated, to do the same (II Tim. 4:2-4, Jude 1:3), taking extreme care that it is done through all Scripture (II Tim. 3:16) and sound reasoning and not through proof texting or by calling other people names, both of which are fallacies. That you have taken exception to my comment that name calling “saddens our Lord” is to judge my heart and that wrongly. However, regardless of what you think my motives are, if you think that it doesn’t grieve our Lord that He has given this wonderful site so that His children can grow in the grace and knowledge of Him (II Pet. 3:18), only to have it used for name calling is to miss more than one biblical principle.

         You entered into this dialogue willingly, and if you don’t want to continue, that’s fine, but if you think that you can cut and paste a commentary prefaced by the comment “My comments about Simon Magus are sound and backed up by solid commintary [sic] through the BLB study links” as though we each haven’t been given the command to “[search] the scriptures daily, whether those things were so” (Acts 17:11b), then you are on the wrong forum. In fact, in reference to Acts 8:13 and to whether Simon was a believer, you actually asked me to bring any misunderstanding on your part to your attention (“if you saw something I missed let me know”), so why are you now accusing me of “harassment” because I have done just that, especially because the time and effort that I put forth was to give a thorough response to the concerns you put forth? This isn’t about agreeing with me, but it is also not about responding to my invitation by calling me “contentious” and by citing three verses that call into question my knowledge, my motives, and my character.

         That said, we know that all Scripture can be perfectly reconciled and that each and every thing that we believe must be in perfect harmony with God’s Word. If you would like to scripturally show me where I am in error, I welcome any reasonable arguments.

         Barbara

4. Tess says

   March 21, 2013 at 9:35 am

   Peace: God Is the Author Of
   Psa 147:14; Isa 45:7; 1Cr 14:33
   Peace: Results From
   Heavenly wisdom
   Jam 3:17
   The government of Christ
   Isa 2:4
   Praying for rulers
   1Ti 2:2
   Seeking the peace of those with whom we dwell
   Jer 29:7
   Peace: Necessary to the Enjoyment of Life
   Psa 34:12,14; 1Pe 3:10,11
   Peace: God Bestows upon Those Who
   Obey him
   Lev 26:6
   Please him
   Psa 16:7
   Endure his chastisements
   Job 5:17,23,24
   Peace: Is a Bond of Union
   Eph 4:3
   Peace: The Fruit of Righteousness Should Be Sown In
   Jam 3:18
   Peace: The Church Shall Enjoy
   Psa 125:5; 128:6; Isa 2:4; Hsa 2:18
   Peace: Saints Should
   Love
   Zec 8:19
   Seek
   Psa 34:14; 1Pe 3:11
   Follow
   2Ti 2:22
   Follow the things which make for
   Rom 14:19
   Cultivate
   Psa 120:7
   Speak
   Est 10:3
   Live in
   2Cr 13:11
   Have, with each other
   Mar 9:50; 1Th 5:13
   Endeavour to have will all men
   Rom 12:18; Hbr 12:14
   Peace: Pray for That of the Church
   Psa 122:6-8
   Peace: Exhort Others To
   Gen 45:24
   Peace: Ministers Should Exhort To
   2Th 3:12
   Peace: Advantages Of
   Pro 17:1; Ecc 4:6
   Peace: Blessedness Of
   Psa 133:1
   Peace: Blessedness of Promoting
   Mat 5:9
   Peace: The Wicked
   Hypocritically speak
   Psa 28:3
   Speak not
   Psa 35:20
   Enjoy not
   Isa 48:22; Eze 7:25
   Opposed to
   Psa 120:7
   Hate
   Psa 120:6
   Peace: Shall Abound in the Latter Days
   Isa 2:4; 11:13; 32:18
   Peace: Exemplified
   Abraham
   Gen 13:8,9
   Abimelech
   Gen 26:29
   Mordecai
   Est 10:3
   David
   Psa 120:7

5. Jerry S. says

   March 21, 2013 at 11:44 pm

   To Whom It May Concern~

   Many years ago one of my older brothers critiqued my young life’s performance by noticing and informing me out of concern that I was willing to “cut my nose off, just to spite my face”. Now it seemed an odd thing to say to me at the time, but as I’ve learned similar to many other adolescent environments than the tough city streets I grew in, that philosophy could serve somebody well in garnering a certain amount of respect, but all be it, not-in-the-long-haul. Try learning a lesson from the lowly monkey, who when unwilling to yield the shape of its hand to the shape of the containers opening and let go of what it had, later found the price paid for it can cost more than its worth owning. Especially if the tab is picked up by some one else!

   J.

   • Jerry S. says

     March 22, 2013 at 10:02 am

     Hang in there, they just have to have the last word and you can use their own baiting techniques with them to prove it as I am now. Let’s see what happens.
     J.

     • Tess says

       March 22, 2013 at 12:01 pm

       Thaks you Jerry.
       God bless you.