Charles Spurgeon on the Holy Spirit and Preaching

Comments

1. Barbara LeFevre says

   March 7, 2013 at 3:04 pm

   Sorry, Dave, this is an off-topic comment.

   Eric~

   I finally posted my response on works and grace on the January 30 blog. I posted it as new response.

   Barbara

   • Bob Demyanovich says

     March 19, 2013 at 2:55 am

     Barbara, you have said that people drop out of the discussion inferring that they were unable to refute your position. There is a spirit of challenge and contention that prevents and stops. Do a word search, “is preached” that is quite illuminating. Your industry and time given to scripture is endearing to me.
     Bob Demyanovich

2. Michael Snow says

   March 24, 2013 at 10:59 am

   Spurgeon was certainly following the Holy Spirit and not the spirit of his times [unlike many evangelicals today]. http://spurgeonwarquotes.wordpress.com/

3. Tess says

   April 9, 2013 at 4:42 pm

   Barbara,
   Here are the answers to the verses you site in the April 3rd (I think) reply’s.

   Matthew 24:13 But he who endures to the end shall be saved.
   Matthew 24 in the bible is a chapter in which Jesus is speaking to His disciples about the signs that will be seen before the Tribulation.
   1-2 Jesus Predicts the Destruction of the Temple
   3-14 The Signs of the Times and the End of the Age
   15-28 The Great Tribulation
   29-31 The Coming of the Son of Man
   32-35 The Parable of the Fig Tree
   36-34 No One Knows the Day or Hour
   35-51 The Faithful Servant and the Evil Servant (Ends the Chapter)

   Using v.13 and implying it is proof that a born again believer can loose their salvation is taking scripture out of context. You cannot cut and paste it into a proof argument stating “what it really means” is you can loose the salvation Christ died that you might have. Using God’s words out of context to try to prove what Barbara states as fact (that believers can loose their salvation) is not dividing the Word of God correctly. Such an important issue would never be hidden in God’s Word. It’s just that simple! This very clearly says that in the end times believers will have to endure and not take the mark of the beast or compromise. They will be persecuted and they must endure even to the point of death. You can torture data but truth is always truth anyone who tells you it “implies or really means” this or that when the whole subject is about something else is WRONG.
   Endure does not equal Earn. Never has, never will.

   Romans 11:22 Therefore consider the goodness and severity of God: on those who fell, severity; but toward you, goodness, if you continue in His goodness. Otherwise you also will be cut off.
   Romans 11 is about ISRAEL but even when we apply it to ourselves the whole chapter is glorious proof of God’s grace and mercy and proves exactly the opposite of what Barbara is trying to prove with one scripture taken out of context.
   1-10 Israel’s Rejection Not Total
   11-36 Israel’s Rejection Not Final
   When we as children disobey Dad we get punished and Dad can even cut of our allowance, kick us out of the house until we straighten up, etc. God’s rod is not the same thing as His wrath. This whole chapter begins and ends with assurance of salvation for believers.
   ~v. 1a I say then, has God cast away His people? CERTAINLY NOT! (Caps mine) v.2a God has not cast away His people whom He foreknew.
   ~v.5-6 Even so then, at this present time there is a remnant according to the election of grace. 6 And if by grace, then it is no longer of works; otherwise grace is no longer grace.[c] But if it is of works, it is no longer grace; otherwise work is no longer work. (These 2 verses alone totally destroy the “you have to earn it” theory.
   ~v 11 . I say then, HAVE THEY STUMBLED THAT THEY SHOULD FALL? CERTAINLY NOT! (Caps mine) But through their fall, to provoke them to jealousy, salvation has come to the Gentiles. do not boast against the branches.
   ~V.18 But if you do boast, remember that you do not support the root, but the root supports you. (NEVER BOAST ABOUT ANYONE YOU THINK IS UNSAVED OR ASSUMED THEY ARE UNSAVED BECAUSE THEY STUMBLE.) God has a purpose and a plan and reasons and you’re speaking against HIS people when you do it. The scripture is speaking of Israel but it’s also saying something to us about own tendency to claim salvation only for ourselves.
   ~ v. 29-32 For the gifts and the calling of God are IRREVOCABLE (Caps mine). For as you were once disobedient to God, yet have now obtained mercy through their disobedience, even so these also have now been disobedient, that through the mercy shown you they also may obtain mercy. For God has committed them all to disobedience, that He might have mercy on all. (Wow! That verse alone speaks volumes) And the chapter ends with
   ~v. 36 For of Him and through Him and to Him are all things, to whom be glory forever. Amen. (Not through YOU, not through and earn and even when you do you might not get it system.) These chapters are BEAUTIFUL chapters of assurance that we can have faith and hope in salvation. Our hope is not like earthly hope. If I say I hope the sun will shine tomorrow I might not get what I hope for but Godly hope is hope based on God. God will never ask you to hope for something you cannot be assured of. He’ll never say, have hope and maybe you’ll get a sunny day or your salvation. Every assurance He gives you is assurance indeed.
   So what are the warnings about? They are statements from Dad about minding dad and if you don’t dad can and will use the rod on you but good Dad’s always love their children and want them to come back home and accept them back when they do. The parable of the Prodigal Son in Luke is a beautiful illustration of that.
   ~Hebrews 13:14 For we have become partakers of Christ if we hold the beginning of our confidence steadfast to the end,
   Barbara you asked. “What does the “if” mean in Hebrews 3:14?” It means we become partakers if we hold the beginning of OUR CONFIDENCE steadfast to the end. It means just what it says. Nowhere does this say or make implication to works. It’s talking about confidence and holding on to it.
   If we don’t hold that CONFIDENCE? What if we are like those talked about in Hebrews 3?
   Too many times Canaan Land and the Land of Milk and Honey are used as idiom of heaven. The beautiful songs are wrong. There are no battles in heaven. There are no giants in heaven. The saints don’t go into heaven and slay the inhabitants. You don’t eat honey in heaven or drink milk. The Land of Milk and Honey/Land of Canaan are idioms of non-believers vs believers. Moses took the Israelite’s out of Egypt headed for Canaan. On the way they complained, they grumbled, etc. and they turned to false idols. They broke the first and most important commandment to have no other gods before Me. Still God keeps working with them right up to the cross over point. Then they decide, God never told them to do this mind you. They decide to send out spies. 12 of them go and check it out and only two believed God could conquer the inhabitants. Only two. My contention is that this symbolizes our call by God to accept Jesus, repent and step into newness of life. There’s milk (a substance that babies drink to help them grow) There’s honey in the Christian life (God’s love tastes like honey) What the people did was NOT TRUST GOD’S PROMISE, STEP INTO THE LAND HE PROMISED, AND KNOW THAT HE CONQUER’S EVERY GIANT YOU ENCOUNTER, The bigger your faith in God and His promises the smaller the stone you need to slay satan because it’s not you doing it. It’s HIM.
   Many times people will step right up to the city limits, so to speak, of accepting Christ as their Lord and Savior and then they see giants of sin that seem to big for them. Those giants are real and yes they are too big for them but they aren’t to big for God. The symbol goes on and on.
   We can wander in the wilderness all our lives and our corpses can drop in that wilderness and no we won’t be saved. We can rebel before accepting Christ and worship idols and false gods. We can go forward in church and say we repent when we haven’t and our hearts not right. We can repent in earnest and in earnest learn what it means to truly make Him Lord and Master but once you’ve done that you are NEVER in danger of loosing your soul. God will keep dealing with you until you die and He may use His rod a lot but His wrath is for unbelief and for the fallen angels. Not for believers. The thief on the cross did no works worthy of salvation and works didn’t save him Jesus did. I’m sure if it were possible the thief probably thought there would be no reward for him in heaven but how many people have come to Christ who were on death row or on their death bed and when shown his story realized it’s God’s mercy and then with broken humbled hearts accepted the free gift He did to give them. His britches I’m sure were smoking as he stepped up to the pearly gates but he got in!!! So does that mean we can just get saved and go on sinning? NO! God knows the motivations of the heart. We need to obey His every word and watch out for spankings from Dad and learn from them. We need to work out our salvation’s with fear and trembling always. But it does not say work out your salvation and buddy you better not step out of lines. The parable of workers in the vineyard illustrates this also. Matthew 20:1-16
   Point to one chapter or even 6-10 consecutive verses that say “repentant believers” can loose their salvation. Don’t take it out of context. Don’t take your conclusion and find a scripture and contort it to say it means something it does not say. You’re conclusions should always line up with scripture. It means what it says and it says what it means. The bible has no contradictions in it. Anything that seems to contradict is simply a dig here sign to deeper understanding. God is also not a liar. When the bible says we are saved not by works but by grace and you deny a stated fact like that you say the bible is lying. It’s not you just don’t understand it. The bible never lies and the whole counsel of God is true and never not once says a believer can loose his salvation.

   • Barbara LeFevre says

     April 10, 2013 at 6:10 am

     Tess~

     Thank you for responding. This is a good starting place for a dialogue. You answered sooner than I thought you would, and because you have brought up a great many points, it will take me a few days to address them all. Because of things going on in my life, if it takes me longer, I will keep you posted.

     Barbara

   • Barbara LeFevre says

     April 10, 2013 at 9:54 am

     Tess~

     I just started writing my response on Matthew 24:13, and it quickly dawned on me that each one of these verses is a dialogue within itself, so I have a suggestion. Given the fact that we are both long winded, would you be agreeable to addressing just one of these verses at a time? If not, I can see this whole thing just spiraling out of control and nothing being settled because of getting too bogged down with all the points and counter points that both of us bring to the table. Let me know. Thanks.

     Barbara

4. Tess says

   April 10, 2013 at 11:57 am

   I agree with you. Taking it verse by verse would be best..

5. Tess says

   April 10, 2013 at 12:41 pm

   LOL I cant believe how LONG my post was! So sorry! Lets really pray not to bog down points . I think we’ll both need much help from God to accomplish that.

   I want you to know Barbara that I love you. I will never say that a believer can ignore the law. My position is that obedience to Gods instructions through His word empowers to walk with mighty assurance of salvation and frees us to live for Him. I don’t see the law as something that enslaves the believer and casts doubt on their destiny.

   Mine is a position of empowerment not enslavement and I want that for every believer.

   I will say that if you twist what I say or become condescending I will not go further with our conversations. I will not participate in using Gods word that way. Once I have disagreed with someones conclusion I wont beat a dead horse. I think we both need to agree to make our points and not badger one another if we dont agree. If that tactic is used I will not honor it and that does not mean someone cant defend their position. Its childish to claim someone is wrong because they wont continue to argue.

   Anyway, I hope we can both agree to discuss not debate.
   Have a beautiful blessed day.

6. Barbara LeFevre says

   April 11, 2013 at 5:08 pm

   Tess~

   I’ll have my response posted tomorrow.

   Barbara

7. Barbara LeFevre says

   April 12, 2013 at 1:40 pm

   Tess~

   I thought I would be done by today, but I won’t. I don’t have that much more to write, but I wasn’t feeling too on top of it for most of the day, so my brain didn’t feel much like thinking. I should have it done tomorrow. Thanks for your patience.

   Barbara

8. Barbara LeFevre says

   April 13, 2013 at 1:32 pm

   Tess~

   Again, thank you for responding and for giving your thoughts on the three verses. I’ve tried to keep my comments as brief as possible while still trying to make my point. I’ve also tried to interject more questions into my writing so that you can examine each point rather than it appearing that I am trying to force my opinion on you.

   Matthew 24:13~ “But he who endures to the end shall be saved.”

   You wrote, “Using God’s words out of context…” I agree that that is wrong to take things out of context, and although I don’t think that I did, which I’ll get to in a minute, let’s assume that this verse is solely referring to those believers in the end times as you believe. While what you wrote about persecution, the mark of the beast, and enduring to the point of death are all true, you didn’t address verse 13 itself, specifically that “…he who endures to the end shall be saved.” What is this verse saying? Is it saying that all believers during the end times will be saved, or is it saying that all believers who endure to the end during the end times will be saved? If it is saying the latter, then isn’t the converse also true, that those believers during this time who don’t endure to the end through all these things you listed won’t be saved? If verse 13 is not saying or implying what I have said, then what is it saying? Maybe you just overlooked this point, so let me know what you think. The second point to consider is that Jesus isn’t merely talking about the very end (the Great Tribulation) in this chapter. I won’t go into a lot of detail because you can read it for yourself, but in answering His disciples’ questions, He addresses what is going to happen during the immediate future, during the entire church age, and then specifically during the Great Tribulation. Because His comment about enduring to the end comes before He speaks on the Great Tribulation, how do you link it only to that time in history?

   As to whether I took something out of context, it is important, as I’m sure you’ll agree, that both immediate context (verse, chapter, etc.) and larger context (entire counsel) are to be considered when formulating doctrine. As to the former, it must be understood that ALL spiritual truths transcend their physical explanations, which are only the houses, if you will, that God has chosen to explain them to us. That certain things have happened or are happening or are going to happen have no bearing whatsoever on God’s eternal truth or on His plan of salvation, meaning that the salvation message itself and the expectations of believers during the Great Tribulation (or the Millennium) are no different than at any other time since Adam. Let me know if you agree with this because my point here, then, is that if believers “in the end times” will have to endure their trials and tribulations to the end to be saved, then wouldn’t it stand to reason that the same expectation applies all believers of all ages? If it doesn’t, wouldn’t this suggest that God has two different standards? Additionally, we can look to the larger context to see if God has given us any knowledge regarding the idea of believers having to endure through trials and tribulations as a condition of salvation, and one of the clearest examples given, I think, is in the letters to the angels of the seven churches in Asia (Rev. 2:1-3:22). In the summation of each of these seven letters, all written to believing churches, a consequence is written in either the positive or the negative, and each one is based upon the condition that the church “repent” and “overcometh” something. We know what it means to repent, so I won’t go into that except to say that its inclusion does illustrate a condition for salvation. In addition, we read that the believer also needs to “overcometh.” According to Strong’s, for a church (or person) to overcome, it means to emerge victorious by holding fast to his faith, even unto death, against the power of foes, temptations, and persecutions (nikao, G3529), the same things spoken of in Matthew 13 that you discussed. What Jesus is telling each church (except Philadelphia) is that it needs to “repent” from a particular sin, and He tells all the churches that they are to “overcometh” something (the flesh, the world, and Satan), which is the same thing as enduring or persevering. Below, I’ve listed each church and the outcome given. Because there is no distinction about how spiritual truths are to be understood and applied, we can know that what is written to each of these bodies of believers applies to each individual believer down through time as well. Let me know what you think about whether each consequence has to do with rewards or a specific aspect of salvation and how you arrived at your conclusion. If you don’t want to go through each one of them, that’s fine, but I would be really interested in what you think is being said in reference to the dead church and the lukewarm church.

   ~The loveless church in Ephesus must repent and overcometh, or it will have its lamp stand removed.
   ~The persecuted church in Smyrna must repent and overcometh, or it will be hurt by the second death.
   ~The compromising church in Pergamos must repent and overcometh so that it will receive hidden manna and white stone.
   
~The corrupt church in Thyatira must repent and overcometh, or it won’t receive the power given to all of the saved.
   ~The dead church in Sardis must repent and overcometh, or it will have its name blotted out of the Book of Life.

   ~The faithful church in Philadelphia must overcometh, or it won’t become a part of God’s holy city.
   ~The lukewarm church in Laodicea must repent and overcometh, or it will not wear garments of salvation.

   I just have one final question on the idea of “enduring.” You wrote, “Endure does not equal Earn,” implying that I believe that one must earn salvation. Because of the fact that I don’t believe that people can earn their salvation, I certainly wouldn’t give the impression that they do, would I? However, because you are implying just that, can you tell me something that I have stated or implied in any response that gave you that impression?

   You wrote, “Such an important issue would never be hidden in God’s Word.” I agree, and as we go through the examples that I found, I hope to show you that it isn’t hidden at all. In fact, not only do I believe it to be one of the most documented truths in God’s Word, I believe that many examples are just plain obvious, which we will get to later.

   Okay. I think this is enough for our first discussion. Thank you, again, for agreeing to do this and for limiting it to something manageable.

   Have a blessed day~
   Barbara

   • Tess says

     April 15, 2013 at 6:47 pm

     Hi Barbara,
     I just got home and found out about the Boston Marathon bombings. I pray for all of the victims and families and I know you do to.

     Matthew 2:13
     MY ANSWER TO YOUR PARAGRAPH 1
     ~~~All scripture can be viewed as past, present and future in it’s lessons to us. I tend to view all scripture as applicable then, now and in the future. So I don’t worry about the then or now questions much. They are relevant and have their place but I’m talking now about HOW to apply all scripture to myself so that’s a different catagory. I just look and ask can this apply to me and I take it seriously and apply it to ME. But I don’t concern myself with converse issues about other believers. I let it teach ME the lesson and I let God do the judging of others. Since He is the only one that knows the heart I consider it a sin when I catch myself judging someone else’s eternal security. When I talk to others I tell them God does NOT wink at sin. If you think He does read the bible. I don’t convict, I’m not qualified to judge and if I try to do that I’m always wrong because I can’t know their heart like God does. When I think about the converse for myself I don’t have to worry about it because my focus is always on what to do and not do, not “gosh I did that I wonder if I’m saved or if I slip will I burn. I know I won’t because I’m right spiritually and my position is secure. Does that mean I don’t have to obey? Of course not! I obey because He’s my Savior and all I want is to please Him. I’ll always fall short in my works but I can’t think of one single instance when He didn’t impress upon my heart that I’m hurting my relationship with Him. He does that well and if I don’t listen He can and does spank me until I do listen. When I apply these things to myself I never doubt my position as His beloved child. I know my heart, He knows it even better and I trust Him to show me ALL truths. I learn so much more every day about Him. I take it ALL very seriously. He doesn’t wink at sin and I should never think He will but I don’t believe He’s a God who says, sorry, you tried but didn’t get it so you’re condemned. It’s a daily walk issue not an accumulation of works issue. If we attempt to make it one we are always wrong. All we need to do is think about the sinner on the cross next to Jesus to realize that. Now we can’t use that guy as a license to sin, doing that indicates our heart is not right our repentance is a show or a sham.

     This really kinda answers all of your post. I can if you want take them on one by one but you must not have prayed hard enough for brevity for me! LOL! I can’t seem to make that happen! The Revelation’s issues are fascinating and I can address them, I’m just not sure I can do it briefly.

     Let me know if you’d still like me to and I’ll take some days and do it on a word doc and then beat myself in an effort to condense.

     Think about this, if you will, and tell me which of these is not saved.
     1. Man on death row repents. Is he going to heaven?
     2. Man who attends church at every opportunity. Tithes exactly 10%. But beats his wife and kids and says I’m sorry but never stops the behavior. Is he going to heaven?
     3. Teen who accepts Christ and repents. Hasn’t got a clue who God is but knows he’s a sinner and tries hard to learn and obey. Is he going to heaven?
     4. Rock Star who’d spent his life singing about satan. He’s addicted to drugs. He cries out to God for help and joins a church and over many years learns how to be a child of God. His tats all over his body and his shabby clothes make him a social outcast at church so no one talks to him or gives a hoot about him so he kinda has to read his bible without the assistance of other believers. His druggy friends don’t like him anymore. His “Christian” friends are afraid of him. Is he going to heaven?
     5. Teen girl gets pregnant. Church members disown her. She knows she was wrong to sleep with that boy but unknown to anyone Dad taught her how. Some “well meaning” older “Christian” woman tells her she committed a grave sin and the teen goes home to “daddy” then kills herself. Is she going to heaven?

     Who can rightly judge Barbara? My answer is only God can do it rightly. When we try to answer the who’s saved questions will He be pleased with us?

     It’s one thing to come here to BLB. Learn and discuss things but we need HIM for all of it. We need to take every word in the bible seriously but the ultimate conclusions about salvation are best left to God.

     • Tess says

       April 15, 2013 at 7:08 pm

       One more.
       6. Young man goes on 30 mission trips all over the world. He’s VERY smart and wins presidential scholarship to a Christian University where he learns lofty intellectual theories. They teach him that he has a brilliant mind and he believes he’s intellectually superior to most everyone. He’s a wonderful person but when in India he saw that people who accept Christ are outcast even from the Indian slums. If they accept Christ they are signing their death warrant. So this smart young man learns relativism. Right and wrong is relative. He decides no loving God would be so cruel and eventually decides that there is no God. He’s never said an unkind word that I can recall. He’s the kindest person to everyone. He claims he’s still talking to God but you can tell he’s struggling between a brilliant mind and simple godly truth. Is he saved? BTW, he’s my nephew so pray for him.

9. Barbara LeFevre says

   April 13, 2013 at 2:16 pm

   Tess~

   On the paragraph toward the end in which I addressed your comment, “Endure does not equal Earn,” I had one thing in mind when I wrote that, but it doesn’t fully explain what I believe the Bible says about works and salvation, so my comments and questions in that paragraph are misleading as to what I believe. I don’t know if I am even making sense here, but the reason I am writing is to ask you just to ignore that paragraph. It is an important issue but one that needs to be discussed alone, so let’s just put it on the back burner until another time. Actually, I don’t care when we discuss it, so if you want it to be our next topic, that’s fine, or if you want to wait until we’re done with the three verses we’re doing, that’s fine, too. Let me know. Thanks.

   Barbara

   • Tess says

     April 14, 2013 at 6:36 pm

     Thanks Barbara,
     I just got back from vacation so it will take me a couple of days to reply to the issues you brought up. Hopefully I can say it in under 4000 words! LOL I’m still praying for brevity! 🙂

     • Barbara LeFevre says

       April 15, 2013 at 4:18 am

       Okay! There’s no rush, so take all the time you need, but thanks for letting me know.

       • Tess says

         April 15, 2013 at 7:17 pm

         Oh! I wanted to tell you. I heard about a book “They Found The Secret”. It’s about Oswald Chambers, Charles Spurgeon, Moody (I think) and a couple of other highly thought of preachers and the experiences they had while being ministers that really huge impacts on them. I “think” it can be downloaded free of charge so I’m going to try to do that tonight on my ipad.

         • Barbara LeFevre says

           April 17, 2013 at 12:55 pm

           Tess~

           Thanks for telling me about the book. I’ll see if I can find it. I haven’t had time to read your response, so it will be tomorrow before I can get my answer to you.

           Barbara

           P.S. It is a tragedy about the marathon. I read online today, though, that they have one suspect in custody already, so that’s good news.

10. Barbara LeFevre says

    April 18, 2013 at 8:47 am

    Tess~

    I read through your comments, and you have brought up a lot of excellent points for discussion (judging, knowing people’s hearts, works) that I would love to address at a later time, but I think it would be better if we just stick to the one verse for now so that we don’t get sidetracked.

    I’m glad that we agree that “All scripture can be viewed as past, present and future in it’s lessons to us.” That was the point I was making throughout my post so having that as our foundation will really help as we dialogue on this topic Yes, I would like it if you took my points “one by one” as you offered. I think that would help so we stay focused. Because I answered your specific comments, I would appreciate it if you would do the same. That way, if I am wrongly dividing the Word, as you believe, you can tell me exactly how by refuting each of my points specifically so that I understand why I am doing so. Rather than my copying what I wrote on the April 13 post on this post, you can go back to it, but, basically, if you would tell me what Matthew 24:13 means, address the specific questions I asked*, and speak to the consequences of the seven churches in Asia and what Jesus meant by their having to “repent” and “overcometh,” that would be just perfect. As I wrote, you don’t need to address each church, but I would be interested in what you think about the churches in Sardis and Laodicea. Any other topics, such as the ones I mentioned at first, can be discussed at a different time. Thank you.

    Have a blessed day~

    Barbara

    *Some of my comments and questions had to do with your comment that Matthew 24:13 was only for the believers in the “end times,” specifically the Great Tribulation, but because we agree that all Scripture is to be heeded by all believers of all times, you don’t need to write anything about that, so that ought to save you some time.

11. Tess says

    April 18, 2013 at 6:21 pm

    Hi Barbara,
    I answered the question about Matthew 24:13 quite thoroughly although I’m not seeing where you’ve answered any of my questions to you. So I’d like for you to do that please while I’m working on you comments concerning the letters to the church’s.

    There are some things that bother me. I noticed that you want to come to conclusions based on “isn’t the converse true?” Barbara I don’t deal in converse conjectures. I take the word and believe what it says. I think we all step right onto a slippery slope when we don’t let the God’s Word speak for itself. I’ve also asked you to supply me verses (I believe I asked for 6 verses from you where the Word states a believer can loose their salvation.) Give me a chapter, give me something because if you can’t you need to seriously consider why you can’t defend something you so vigorously contend is true.

    I’ve given you whole chapters that speak to exactly the opposite. Romans 8; Ephesians 2. Look at what Hebrews 3 and Hebrews 4 are talking about. What did they do and what didn’t they do?

    Hebrews 3:6; but Christ as a Son over His own house, whose house we are —>if we hold fast the confidence and the rejoicing of the hope firm to the endif we hold the beginning of our confidence steadfast to the endbe diligent to enter that rest,<— lest anyone fall according to the same example of disobedience.
    (if you don't enter the rest that comes with faith you will fall into disobedience.)
    I can go on!

    Hebrews 5:1-4 For every high priest taken from among men is appointed for men in things pertaining to God, that he may offer both gifts and sacrifices for sins. 2 He can have compassion on those who are ignorant and going astray, since he himself is also subject to weakness. 3 Because of this he is required as for the people, so also for himself, to offer sacrifices for sins. 4 And no man takes this honor to himself, but he who is called by God, just as Aaron was.

    When I've got all this and more to back me up I do not need to think of the converse or take scriptures and say this really means this or that.

    Answer some of these and consider that what I'm attempting to have you see is the empowerment faith and assurance give us. What you're wanting me to see is doubt. I'm not exactly sure why but I'll let you tell me.

    You must be talking about your post from March 13th not April,13 There wasn't one on that day. But I'm not sure what you're asking me to address about it.

    Be well and blessed Sis.

12. Tess says

    April 18, 2013 at 6:48 pm

    Sorry! I had several scriptures and thought I versed em but somehow they jumbled.

    Read all of Hebrews 3 and look Paul’s conclusions.
    v. 1-6 Hebrews 3:6 but Christ as a Son over His own house, whose house we are if we HOLD FAST THE CONFIDENCE AND THE REJOICING OF THE HOPE FIRM TO THE END. (caps mine)v.

    v. 7-14 Hebrews 3:7-14 For we have become partakers of Christ if we HOLD THE BEGINNING OF OUR CONFIDENCE STEADFAST TO THE END, (caps mine) 15 while it is said: “Today, if you will hear His voice, Do not harden your hearts as in the rebellion.

    v.3:15-4:2 (Hebrews 3:15-Hebrews 4:2) So we see that they COULD NOT ENTER IN BECAUSE OF UNBELIEF (caps mine). Therefore, since a promise remains of entering His rest, let us fear lest any of you seem to have come short of it. 2 For indeed the gospel was preached to us as well as to them; but the word which they heard did not profit them, not being mixed with faith in those who heard it. DON’T YA THINK IF IT WAS BECAUSE OF WORKS HE WOULD HAVE SAID SO RIGHT HERE?

    v.3-10 Hebrews 4:3-11 There remains therefore a rest for the people of God. 10 For he who has entered His rest has himself also ceased from his works as God did from His. 11 Let us therefore be diligent to enter that rest, lest anyone fall according to the same example of disobedience. (THIS ONE COULD ALL BE IN CAPS)

    v. 12-16 Hebrews 4:12-16 THE BIG CONCLUSION v. 16 Let us therefore come boldly to the throne of grace, that we may obtain mercy and find grace to help in time of need.

    When we take the topics and chapters from where they begin to where they end we rightly divide the Word of truth. When we pick out verses we ignore the topic and conclusions made by the author.

13. Tess says

    April 18, 2013 at 6:56 pm

    When we take the topics and chapters from where the subject begins to where the subject ends we rightly divide the Word of truth. When we pick out verses we ignore the topic and conclusions made by the author.

    One verse theology is wrong whenever we do it. You can in no way say I believe in John 3:16 and that’s all I need to know. You also cannot say I believe (I dunno lets pick one from the example in Hebrews)
    Hebrews 3:11 So I swore in My wrath,
    ‘They shall not enter My rest.

    Now that’s a scary passage but when you use it to try to defend a salvation lost theology you are not using it properly you taking it out of context and attempting to sure up a false premise.

14. Tess says

    April 18, 2013 at 8:02 pm

    All scripture is designed in this way. It starts with a subject, expounds on it and then IT tells you the conclusion. The letters to the 7 churches also do this and snipping the bad parts are dividing the Word of God incorrectly. The letters to the seven churches are report cards where Jesus points out the good things about the church/person now and then and future and tells them what the bad areas in need of correction are and then in each tells them to repent of those things, endure and overcome. Are there horrible consequences yes but remember there are tares among the wheat.

    He’s talking to the tares and the letter to Smyrna strongly illustrates this.

    `Ephesus (This one is a believers issue but notice he calls them to repent and there’s no or your gonna burn threat here.)
    Revelation 2:4-5 Nevertheless I have this against you, that you have left your first love. 5 Remember therefore from where you have fallen; repent and do the first works, or else I will come to you quickly and remove your lampstand from its place—unless you repent.

    ~Smyrna (I think this verse is talking outside the church but still a tares statement)
    Revelation 2:9 and I know the blasphemy of those who say they are Jews and are not, but are a synagogue of Satan.

    ~Pergamos (another tares among the wheat statement)
    Revelation 2:14 But I have a few things against you, because you have there those who hold the doctrine of Balaam, who taught Balak to put a stumbling block before the children of Israel, to eat things sacrificed to idols, and to commit sexual immorality.

    ~Thyatira (This was interesting! He emphatically states He’s gonna throw Jezabel (unrepentant tare) into a sickbed but watch, those who commit adultery with her go into the tribulation UNLESS they repent. So this states the punishment is the tribulation. It says nowhere you’re gonna burn. It doesn’t tell us, so it’s not a burn statement either. Will they? I dunno HE DID NOT say. So we can only conjecture)
    Revelation 2:20-22 Nevertheless I have a few things against you, because you allow that woman Jezebel, who calls herself a prophetess, to teach and seduce My servants to commit sexual immorality and eat things sacrificed to idols. 21 And I gave her time to repent of her sexual immorality, and she did not repent. 22 Indeed I will cast her into a sickbed, and those who commit adultery with her into great tribulation, unless they repent of their deeds.

    ~Sardis (This one the whole church is tares. They are by name only but they are dead. Again they have time to repent and no final judgment is pronounced by Jesus and He’s the one who counts.)
    Revelation 3:1-6

    3 “And to the angel of the church in Sardis write,

    ‘These things says He who has the seven Spirits of God and the seven stars: “I know your works, that you have a name that you are alive, but you are dead. 2 Be watchful, and strengthen the things which remain, that are ready to die, for I have not found your works perfect before God. 3 Remember therefore how you have received and heard; hold fast and repent. Therefore if you will not watch, I will come upon you as a thief, and you will not know what hour I will come upon you. 4 You have a few names even in Sardis who have not defiled their garments; and they shall walk with Me in white, for they are worthy. 5 He who overcomes shall be clothed in white garments, and I will not blot out his name from the Book of Life; but I will confess his name before My Father and before His angels.
    6 “He who has an ear, let him hear what the Spirit says to the churches.”’

    ~Philadelphia
    Revelation 3:7-13
    (Wow don’t we all wanna be Philadelphia?! But look at what’s so good about them. WORKS! Works are rewarded! We can all take such joy in that. We don’t have to worry about the other guys works our works will be rewarded! Again there’s no believers are gonna burn statements. Philadelphia folks are gonna be worshiped AND escape the Tribulation. This one’s fascinating. They’ll escape the hour of trial but the synagogue of Satan gonna worship before their feet?? I “think” that can only mean the New Jerusalem will be where they go but they need to hold onto their crown. Very interesting.)

    ~Laodiceans (Again, no burn statements. He even says He loves them and He’ll basically spank them wanting them to repent.)

    Revelation 3:14-22

    19 As many as I love, I rebuke and chasten. Therefore be zealous and repent

    The only way to get to where you want to go is to make a “it says this but means this” statement. Will they burn? I dunno but since God doesn’t say they will I’m not gonna go to “isn’t the converse true” and put words that aren’t there in there.

    Now this is only to answer your comment “but I would be really interested in what you think is being said in reference to the dead church and the lukewarm church.”

    Revelation has way more in it and you could fill a library with all the interpretations true and otherwise about it. But Barbara your direct question was “what is being said”? It said it, so your question isn’t even an honest one. What you’re asking is what does it say about those who are being warned? It says repent or it won’t be pretty.

15. Barbara LeFevre says

    April 19, 2013 at 4:33 pm

    Tess~

    I have kind of a busy weekend planned, so I probably won’t get anything posted until Monday, maybe even Tuesday. Thanks.

    Barbara