The following is section six from a series on emphatic elements in the Greek New Testament, written by biblical language expert Justin Alfred. Previous blog entries in this series:
Section VI – Matthew 24:32-35
“Now learn the parable from the fig tree: when its branch has already become tender, and puts forth its leaves, you know that summer is near; 33 even so you too, when you see all these things, recognize that He is near, right at the door. 34 ‘Truly I say to you, this generation will not pass away (οὐ μὴ παρέλθῃ – ou mē parelthē ) until all these things take place. 35 Heaven and earth will pass away, but My words shall not pass away (οὐ μὴ παρέλθωσιν – ou mē parelthōsin)'” (Matthew 24:32-35).
This is the subjunctive of emphatic negation
We are now at the core of this whole passage with regard to the subjunctive of emphatic negation. Jesus is saying emphatically that neither “this generation” will in NO WAY WHATSOEVER “pass away until all these things take place,” and even though “heaven and earth will pass away,” His “words shall in NO WAY AT ANY TIME EVER “pass away.”
What does the word “generation” mean?
In the Greek, the word is γενεά (genea), and it is precisely the debate over the meaning of this word that has caused so much confusion and misdirection in eschatological teaching and belief for almost 2000 years. But one thing that time does do is help to sort out what is true and what is not. Therefore, what we will do now is look at the four, primary meanings and application of this word, and our source will be William F. Arndt and F. Wilber Gingrich’s A Greek-English Lexicon of the New Testament and Other Early Christian Literature. As we do, I believe we will get a proper perspective on just exactly what Jesus was referring to with reference to γενεά (genea):
Clan, race, or kind
1) γενεά (genea) – the first meaning is “those who are descended from a common ancestor, a clan, race, and kind generation . . . such as the children of this age are more prudent in relation to their own clan (i.e., people of their own kind) than are the children of light, Luke 16:8. The meaning nation is advocated by some in Mt 24:34; Mk 13:30; Lk 21:32; . . .”[1] As we look at this meaning, it is interesting to note that here in Matthew 24:34, the very passage we are looking at, that many other scholars interpret γενεά (genea) here as referring to the “nation” of Israel. And does that make any sense at all? It would seem to make great sense, especially as we see the Jews now having reestablished their nationhood, but more importantly, the “race” itself is still with us, surviving numerous attempts to destroy it over the past 2000 years (e.g., the Holocaust with Nazi Germany).
On the other hand, there are those scholars who believe the idea of “clan” or “kind” could also be referring to believers in Jesus Christ – i.e., the Church of Jesus Christ, not the Mormons, but the true and living body of born again believers in Jesus Christ “will not pass away IN ANY MANNER (emphasis of subjunctive of emphatic negation – my note)” until all of the things Jesus has talked about will occur. This, therefore, is not giving IN ANY WAY a time frame by which we can figure out when the rapture will occur because of current events, but rather Jesus is telling us that we need to be ready because His rapture and return are imminent and have been for 2000 years – “But do not let this one fact escape your notice, beloved, that with the Lord one day is as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day” (II Peter 3:8), thus, according to God’s timetable, it has been 2 days since Jesus spoke these words.
Those born around the same time
2) γενεά (genea) – the second meaning is “the sum total of those born at the same time, expanded to include all those living at a given time generation, contemporaries . . .; Jesus looks upon the whole contemporary generation of Jews as a uniform mass confronting him . . . Mt 11:16; 12:41f; 23:36; 24:34; Mk 13:30; Lk 7:31; 11:29-32, 50f; 17:25; 21:32.”[2] Thus, this use of the word is clearly emphasizing a contemporaneous, group of people who are living at the same general time. In addition, you will note that Matthew 24:34 is also included in this meaning, as some scholars do see Jesus as referring to the very people He was talking with at that time, versus a “race” as the first meaning indicates. This interpretive meaning would fit with the Full Preterist View that maintains that all of the prophecies foretold by Jesus were fulfilled in 79 AD, which for those holding this view would mean that there was a “spiritual,” or perhaps a metaphorical fulfillment of many of the things Jesus said were going to happen.
Age or time
3) γενεά (genea) – the third meaning is “age, the time of a generation . . . . Here the original sense gradually disappears, and the meaning, ‘a period of time’ remains.”[3] This too would certainly fit in with Matthew 24:34 in that Jesus is talking in much larger terms than our human capacity is able to initially conceive of – that is, as II Peter 3:8 indicates, “with the Lord one day is as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day,” and thus, Jesus could very well be referring to the ‘Church Age’, or if you will, the time from His life, death, resurrection and the beginning of His Church, empowered by the indwelling Holy Spirit (John 14:15-24), until His return, which would include the rapture and the Great Tribulation period. What is most interesting to note with this interpretive meaning is that “age” has no time limits placed upon it – in other words, it is open ended.
Family or origin
4) γενεά (genea) – the fourth meaning is “that of a family or origin (of a group or perhaps a race or kind – my note) as in Acts 8:33 (“In humiliation His judgment was taken away; Who shall relate His generation? For His life is removed from the earth” – my quote).”[4] This interpretive meaning may indeed be the broadest of the four, incorporating all three – i.e., a family, race, or kind, as well as contemporary group of people, and then finally, and age that has no definite time limits placed upon it.
As we have looked at the above definitions of the Greek word for “generation” – γενεά (genea) – we are now in a much better position to make far more clear and better biblical decision as to not only what Jesus is asserting here with regard to γενεά (genea), but also what our attitude should be concerning His return and just how we should emphasize it. However, before we come to a conclusion on these matters, we need to look at one final section we are going to analyze in Matthew 24.
Stay tuned next week.
Josh says
August 22, 2012 at 9:45 amRegarding your option 2, it is not just full preterists who would hold this view, but also partial preterists.
Also, why do you claim that preterists look to AD 79 as a fulfillment of these prophecies, rather than AD 70?
Jerry S. says
August 22, 2012 at 9:50 amNot being a scholar myself or having been there at the time it was said. Using logic and common sense I think it would be safe to say that Yeshua was not speaking in Greek. What is the meaning of the Hebrew word that is translated to English as “generation”? This will help us come to an understanding of what Yeshua is trying to say.
J.
Kernal Baus says
August 22, 2012 at 1:07 pmHe likely spoke Aramaic, though he probably also knew Greek and Hebrew too.
The Aramaic word for generation is ‘dar’. Hebrew is ‘dor’.
I don’t think it helps, though!
Jerry S. says
August 22, 2012 at 5:22 pmFor sure what anyone was speaking 2000 years ago would be a matter of an educated guess, but considering Our LORD is the promised Hebrew Messiah answering His Jewish disciple’s questions about the yet fulfilled Kingdom of Israel… I would lean toward Hebrew. The way we can find what Hebrew word was used is to take the Greek word, in this case (γενεά), go to the Septuagint to where this word is recorded and find the corresponding Hebrew word. This would be a good point to start from.
J.
Kernal Baus says
August 23, 2012 at 3:38 amWell, it is almost certain that Jesus primarily spoke Aramaic as it was the language of Palestine at that time. Some spoke Greek as a second language, and a few knew Hebrew, but it wasn’t a spoken language by this point. It really doesn’t matter that He is the Messiah of a people who spoke Hebrew at one time.
I’ve already told you the Aramaic and Hebrew words for ‘γενεά’. They mean the same thing, ‘generation’. We still have to work out what Jesus meant by using this word, but that goes beyond simple lexical meanings.
Jerry S. says
August 23, 2012 at 9:39 amI’m glad you used the word “almost”. Let me say it this way, imagine a 12 year old boy conversing with Temple Teachers in any other language than Hebrew, Luk 2:46 , or a young man asked to read from the Scroll written in any other language than Hebrew, Luk 4:16? Just doesn’t seem to fit and makes it hard to believe it wasn’t a spoken language at the time and I do believe Hebrew is alive and well and is not currently a dead language.
Aramaic is a hybrid form of Hebrew, a Jewish/Arabic similar to the Jewish/Greek the LXX is written in. That is why the Aramaic and Hebrew words for “generation” are so similar. When the Greek culture swept the Middle East the Hebrews most likely did not turn from one language to the other like a switch. The concept of a Messiah did not exist in the Greek culture, Act 17:16-32, so a hybrid language forms to incorporate them into the new language (Yiddish), so using the pure Greek proper or common can send us off the track. Thus the LXX is the gateway to the Hebrew concepts we believe in.
Working backwards from an English translated word that holds the possibility of flaws resulting in 2000 years of translations through several languages is not the best way to come at this, in my opinion. I do agree with you that we must go beyond simple lexical meanings. What we believe in is the Hebrew Messiah, so understanding these Hebrew concepts is paramount to understanding what He wants to say to us 2000 years later.
J.
Mac says
August 22, 2012 at 6:10 pmThe gospel of Matthew was undoubtedly written in Hebrew. It contains Hebrew idioms and structures that make no sense if originally coined in Greek. But I agree with Kernaul who said the Hebrew word for “generation” probably offers no help, here.
Frankly, I don’t see what the issue is here; and what great mystery is waiting to be unfolded. The key to this passage is not the word “generation” but the words “all these things.” When all these things begin to unfold, THAT generation shall remain until Messiah is revealed. Seems pretty simplistic to me.
Kernal Baus says
August 23, 2012 at 3:42 amMatthew’s gospel was actually almost certainly a Greek composition. There is no sign of a translation from a Semitic original. The presence of Semitic idiom does not mean it is a translation, only that the author was probably Semitic or at least familiar with Semitic culture and/or the Septuagint.
Teresa says
August 22, 2012 at 9:55 amThank you, Pastor Justin. I’m among those who always wondered about the meaning of this passage. You’ve left me on the edge of my seat, waiting for your next post to pull it all together!
Rix says
August 22, 2012 at 10:44 amBrother Steve, I have been having a lot of problems with your use of caps that do not match the refrenced text when I roll over the text. I have been trying to deal with this and a reply on how to use this site effectivly would be a blessing. Thank you and 500 billion blessings. If it is not a hassel I would appreciate a call from you or another staff on how to set up this site to make the most of my use of this site. Rix at 209 498- 2141. Afternoons would be best for me as Iam trying to reset my sleep schedule. 500 billion blessings. Rix
steve morrow says
August 22, 2012 at 8:22 pmRix
Merely emphasizing the words of our LORD
When using capitals
This is a good website to use to –STUDY GODS WORDS–
Not for the opinions expressed in dis-obedience
Proverbs 18:2 NASB
A fool does not delight in understanding
But only in revealing his own mind
Proverbs 18:2 NIV
A fool finds no pleasure in understanding
But delights in airing his own opinions
Proverbs 18:2 KJV
A fool hath no delight in understanding
But that his heart may discover itself
Psalm 40:8
I delight to do THY will
Yea THY law is within my heart
Proverbs 2:6
For the LORD giveth wisdom
Out of HIS MOUTH cometh knowledge and understanding
Psalm 119:130
The entrance of THY words giveth light
it giveth UNDERSTANDING unto the simple
Psalm 119:104
Through THY precepts I get UNDERSTANDING
Therefore I hate every false way
Proverbs 8:14
Counsel is mine and sound wisdom
I am understanding I have strength
Job 38:36
Who hath put wisdom in the inward parts
or who hath given understanding to the heart
John 7:17&18
—IF— any man will—DO HIS WILL—
he shall know of the doctrine whether it be of GOD
or whether I speak of MYSELF
(18)HE THAT SPEAKETH OF HIMSELF
SEEKETH HIS OWN GLORY but he that seeketh his glory
that sent him the same is true and no unrighteousness
is in him
Proverbs 8:7&8
For —MY MOUTH—shall speak truth
and wickedness is an abominationto MY lips
(8) ALL the words of MY MOUTH are in righteousness
There is nothing froward or perverse in them
John 6:63
It is the spirit that quickeneth
The flesh profiteth —NOTHING—
The words that I SPEAK unto you
They are spirit and they are life
Deuteronomy 18:18
I will raise them up a prophet from among their brethren like unto thee
And I will put MY words in HIS mouth and he shall
speak unto them all that I shall command HIM
Acts 3:22&23
For Moses truly said unto the fathers
A PROPHET SHALL THE LORD YOUR GOD RAISE UP UNTO YOU
OF YOUR BRETHREN LIKE UNTO ME HIM SHALL YOU HEAR
IN ALL THINGS WHATSOEVER HE SHALL SAY UNTO YOU
(23) AND IT SHALL COME TO PASS THAT EVERY SOUL WHICH WILL NOT HEAR THAT PROPHET
—-SHALL BE DESTROYED FROM AMONG THE PEOPLE—-
Hebrews 1:1&2
GOD who who at sundry times and in divers manners spake in time past unto the fathers by the prophets
(2) Hath in these last days —SPOKEN—unto us by
HIS SON
Whom HE hath appointed heir of all things
By whom HE also made the worlds
James 3:1
My brethren be not many masters/teachers
Knowing that we shall receive the greater
comdemnation
Hebrews 2:1
Therefore we ought to give the more earnest heed
to the things which we have heard lest at any time
we should let them slip
Help us O LORD that we would be the obedient children
you have called us to be and help us that we would not listen to the many false prophets IN YOUR NAME JESUS
John 14:15
IF you love ME
—KEEP—MY comandments
2 Timothy 3:16
ALL scripture is given by inspiration of GOD
and is profitable for doctrine for reproof
FOR CORRECTION FOR INSTRUCTION IN RIGHTEOUSNESS
LOVING THE LORD JESUS
Eric says
August 22, 2012 at 1:08 pmIn the context, the word “generation” refers to the “generation of vipers” (Matthew 3:7, 12:34, and 23:33), as opposed to the “generation of Jesus Christ” (Matthew 1:1). In other words, the Jewish religious leaders are children of the devil (John 8:44), which makes them vipers. Jesus Christ told the Pharisees that: “Therefore say I unto you, The kingdom of God shall be taken from you, and given to a nation bringing forth the fruits thereof” (Matthew 21:43). This “nation” is the little flock of believers in Israel: Luke 12:32 “Fear not, little flock; for it is your Father’s good pleasure to give you the kingdom.” Therefore, because they are of the devil, the Jewish religious leaders will have the kingdom taken from them and given to the little flock of believers in Israel. By saying in Matthew 24:34 that “This generation shall not pass, till all these things be fulfilled,” Jesus is saying that the Jewish religious leaders will remain in power through the end of the tribulation period. It is only at Jesus’ second coming that the events in Matthew 24 will be fulfilled, the generation of vipers will then pass off the scene through God’s judgment of them, and the kingdom of God will be given to the believing remnant in Israel to rule and reign with the Lord Jesus Christ on earth forever in His kingdom.
Tom Webster says
August 22, 2012 at 1:38 pmThe rapture is NOT and never has been “imminent.”
ACTS 3:21 (KJV)
21 Whom the heaven must receive until the times of restitution of all things, which God hath spoken by the mouth of all his holy prophets since the world began.
ACTS 3:21 (AMP)
21 Whom heaven must receive [and retain] until the time for the complete restoration of all that God spoke by the mouth of all His holy prophets for ages past [from the most ancient time in the memory of man].
Heaven must RETAIN (KEEP) Jesus as High Priest and Intercessor for the saints until the Church/bride is complete and ready. Jesus cannot return until the time of restitution of ALL things, which will occur at the end of this age…
NOT IMMINENT:
Jesus cannot return before the Gospel has been preached to every nation (nationality or tribe).
Jesus cannot return until the time of the Gentiles is complete (see Luke 21).
Jesus cannot return before the kingdom will be restored to [the nation of] Israel.
Jesus cannot return until the man of sin is revealed in Jerusalem.
Jesus cannot return before The Tribulation.
Jesus will not return while the antichrist is ALLOWED to overcome the saints for 42 months (Rev. 13:5-7)
Jesus will not return before there is a quantity of Tribulation saints which no man can number…
Jesus cannot return before the RESURRECTION. The dead in Christ RISE FIRST…
When HE returns, it will be VERY VISIBLE. EVERY EYE will see Him…
Many prophecies must be fulfilled before Jesus can return. Matthew 24 gives a rough outline… The saints are gathered ATFER the Tribulation (v29-31) – therefore, the rapture CANNOT be “imminent.”
Mac says
August 22, 2012 at 6:12 pmDid I miss something? Were we discussing the rapture at any point in this thread?
Eric says
August 23, 2012 at 1:07 pmYou are confusing Jesus’ second coming with the rapture. All of the scriptures you gave relate to Jesus’ second coming. The rapture is only spoken about in Paul’s epistles, since it only pertains to the body of Christ. As I Corinthians 15:51 says, the rapture was a MYSTERY. “Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed.”
Ben says
August 22, 2012 at 6:12 pmTo add upon what Tom has said about the false doctrine of imminence-
In Paul’s epistle to Thessalonians we find that they were being deceived about this very teaching that Justin is promoting here. Paul wrote to correct and warn them about being deceived concerning this.
2 Thess 2:1-4 Now, brethren, concerning the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our gathering together to Him, we ask you, not to be soon shaken in mind or troubled, either by spirit or by word or by letter, as if from us, as though the day of Christ had come. Let no one DECIEVE you by any means; for that Day WILL NOT COME unless the falling away comes first, and the man of sin is revealed, the son of perdition, who opposes and exalts himself above all that is called God or that is worshiped, so that he sits as God in the temple of God, showing himself that he is God.
The main point of Paul’s teaching here concerns the timing of the “coming of our Lord Jesus Christ” and “our gathering together to Him”.
The “coming” is the Greek word [parousia] and was used at the time Paul wrote this letter to describe the visible arrival of Kings or other dignitaries. They would be met by an entourage of people and they would usher them to wherever they were to go.It also implies arriving and remaining in the presence of others.(2 Cor 10:10, Phil 2:12) So “coming” means the visible presence of Christ at His return (Matt 24:3,27,37,39) to be met by the saints in the air (1 thess 4:13) and accompanied to Jerusalem where He will assume the throne of David. (2 Cor 10:10, Phil 2:12)
“our gathering together to Him” is a reference to what Jesus said in Matt 24:31 and Mark 13:27
“the day of Christ” is a reference to Jesus return to the earth to set up his Kingdom. (Phil 1:10,6,2:16,Luke 17:24,1cor 1:8, 2 cor 1:14)
In the phrase “day of Christ had come” the Greek verb [enistēmi] for “had come” means to be upon, impend, or close at hand, in other words “imminent”. The KJV renders this word more accurately as “at hand”. The very teaching of imminence concerning Christ’s return is the very thing Paul is warning the Thessalonians not to be deceived about.
After Paul establishes that the Lords return is not imminent he explains to them why. He explains that two events must take place before this.
1. “the falling away” this is the Greek word [apostasia] or in english “apostasy”. This will come into ultimate fulfillment when the greater part or “ the many” Christians forsake Christ at the onset of the tribulation. Jesus warned of this in Matt 24:10.
2. “the man of sin is revealed” This will be fulfilled when the antichrist reveals himself at the “abominiation of desolation”. Jesus also warned His disciples to watch for this sign in Matt 24:15.
Paul’s teaching is clear, we can not expect Christ to return until these events take place. Therefore His return is not imminent.
If we start at Acts 1:9 from the point of Christ’s ascension and consider if the imminence of His return were true, we would have to believe that He could have returned any moment after that. This is impossible due to the fact that there were several more things prophesied to take place before hand.
1. Jesus promised to His disciples that after He left they would be given the Holy Spirit. (Acts 1)
2. The Gospel of the kingdom had to be preached throughout the whole earth as well as the making of disciples of all nations.(Matt 24:14, 28:18-20)
3. The destruction of the Temple and desolation of Jerusalem. (Luke 21:6, Matt 24:1-2)
4. Peter had to die (John 21:18,19, 2Peter 1:14)
5. Scoffers had to come and mock the Lords return (2 Peter 3:3)
I have to ask those who hold to the doctrine of imminence:
“after which one of these five things did the Lord’s return become imminent?”
Ben says
August 22, 2012 at 6:19 pmMac,
Tom and I’s comments are addressing this statement in Justin’s teaching.
“This, therefore, is not giving IN ANY WAY a time frame by which we can figure out when the rapture will occur because of current events, but rather Jesus is telling us that we need to be ready because His rapture and return are imminent and have been for 2000 years – “
Mac says
August 22, 2012 at 7:03 pmThanks, Ben. I must have missed that line. Eschatology is a topic that can be fun and exciting for the young, both physically and spiritually; but I think the more one progresses in his/her discipleship, it becomes a back shelf subject matter, being replaced with “occupy till I come.”
Thirty years ago, I would have been all over this topic; but after discrediting so much of Hal Lindsey’s work, The Late Great Planet Earth, I studied and arrived at my own conclusions and moved on to issues more relevant to daily life.
Grace and peace.
Ben says
August 22, 2012 at 7:47 pmHey Mac,
I don’t know about Eschatology being a topic for the young and then as you mature in the faith you move on to more important things so to speak. When most Christians hear the word Eschatology they usually associate it with Rapture, Antichrist, tribulation, and such but here is a list of things that one’s Eschatological views can have an affect on.
– Salvation
– The kingdom of God
– the resurrection
– why Jesus is called the Christ
– the final destiny of believers
– the judgment
– the reward of the inheritance
– the nature of the church
-the new covenant
And the list goes on. what is something serious to consider is that one’s view of the rapture/resurrection can actually affect all these other areas in Scripture.
Ben says
August 22, 2012 at 7:59 pmHebrews 6:13-19
God’s Infallible Purpose in Christ
Mac,
Consider Heb 6 as well
13 For when God made a promise to Abraham, because He could swear by no one greater, He swore by Himself, 14 saying,”Surely blessing I will bless you, and multiplying I will multiply you.”a 15 And so, after he had patiently endured, he obtained the promise. 16 For men indeed swear by the greater, and an oath for confirmation is for them an end of all dispute. 17 Thus God, determining to show more abundantly to the heirs of promise the immutability of His counsel, confirmed it by an oath, 18 that by two immutable things, in which it is impossible for God to lie, we might a have strong consolation, who have fled for refuge to lay hold of THE HOPE set before us.
19 THIS HOPE we have as an ANCHOR of the soul, both sure and steadfast, and which enters the Presence behind the veil,
Heb 6:19 tells us that the God’s promise He made to Abraham and the fact that God will fulfill it is our hope and an anchor for our souls. The promise to Abraham concerns the eternal land inheritance which has obviously not come into fruition yet so again we have Something that deals with Eschatology and is in fact the focus of our future hope of the Christian faith.
Mac says
August 23, 2012 at 5:01 amI understand what you are saying. I just disagree with the idea that specificity on the tining of issues is relevant to your list of related doctrinal issues. The FACT of the resurrection, regardless of the TIME of it, is grounds for motivating hope in the life of the believers.
If our relationship with Elohim is based upon a “magic prayer” that once prayed we believe we are secure forever regardless of any factor, then I would agree, such issues will affect the way I live my life; but that in itself is sufficient evidence to discredit the magic prayer gospel.
What passes for the gospel today bears no resemblance to the gospel propagated in the book of Acts. THAT gospel does not lead a believer to rely on a point in time, once for all purposes choice. The gospel of the book of Acts, and which Paul says any deviation from which the dessiminator should be anathema, is a call to obedience to the will of Elohim. If THAT is one’s anchor, the timing of eschatological issues is fanciful but not relevant to day to day living.
Tom Webster says
August 23, 2012 at 7:22 am“Once saved, always saved” is another dangerous myth. I loved your “magic prayer” comment. Without [genuine] repentance, there is no remission of sin! Heaven rejoices when a sinner REPENTS, not when he makes a “decision” [for Christ]. A salvation prayer must be in [true]faith and with a repentant heart. Afterwards, it is a 2-way relationship that must bear fruit and go the distance…
“to him who overcomes…”
“to him who endures to the end”
Incidentally, since we are in Matthew 24, verse 45-51 make it clear that some believers will be “evil servants,” return to the world, and end up in Hell.
Barbara LeFevre says
August 23, 2012 at 7:44 amTom~
Your first line is exactly right, and it is very much a “2-way relationship” as you have written. I spent over a year studying this very topic and reconciling Scripture to arrive at the sobering realization that true believers, born of God, who do not fulfill their part of the covenant agreement will, in the end, forfeit their salvation, due to rebellion or apathy. I can’t help but think how much closer to God we would be and how much more useful we would be if we truly understood and acted upon this teaching.
God bless you~
Barbara
Mac says
August 23, 2012 at 11:09 amThe doctrinal conflict over “salvation” stems from working with a traditional concept instead of a biblical one. The only real definition of salvation in the New Testament is in the prophetic utterance of Zacharias in Luke 1:67-79 in which he defines salvation by saying: “That he would grant unto us, that we being delivered out of the hand of our enemies might serve him without fear, In holiness and righteousness before him, all the days of our life.”
Salvation, then, is the liberty from that which has formerly prevented us from doing the will of Elohim, freeing us to serve Him without corruption in our obedience. It isn’t eternal security, or pie in the sky bye and bye.
Paul says we are saved by grace through faith. Grace is the power that Elohim gives to enable us to do His will. Where there is no grace, there is no ability to be obedient to His will. Faith in Messiah places us into a dynamic with the Father to receive grace, and thus be able to do that which is our created design and purpose…to do His will. Faith, also, is not a point-in-time experience, but is static, ever present-tense (“Now, faith is…Heb 11:1). The magic prayer, above all other mechanisms of deceiving the believer, entices one to no longer have present-tense reliance upon Messiah in order to receive the Father’s grace (by which we are saved). Instead, it transfers our reliance upon the new-birth. Thus, once born-again, always born-again, hence once “saved” always saved. The new birth is merely the equipment we are given to receive and respond to grace.
Zacharias finished his prophecy by saying that it is through the forgiveness of sins that we receive the KNOWLEDGE of salvation. Forgiveness of sins is not the salvation itself.
Barbara LeFevre says
August 24, 2012 at 9:40 amMac~
The only “real definition of salvation” does not come from “Zacharias;” it comes from the totality of God’s Word, from Genesis to Revelation. That’ why God gave it to us. I hope and pray that you are looking to all of it.
Barbara
Dana says
August 24, 2012 at 6:51 pmBarbara, if you are attending to the “totality” of the Scripture you will come to the conclusion that the totality is congealed in the prophecy of Zacharias.
I have noticed your comments in here tend to be, “You are correct,: or “You are wrong.” What I see in most of your comments is a very in-the-box limited understanding of the Scripture. I do believe, however, that you are earnest in your study, and seemingly diligent; so I have hope that you will eventually break out of the box and see beyond the boundaries of traditional doctrinal teaching; most of which is in dire need of being rejected.
Barbara LeFevre says
August 25, 2012 at 7:52 amDana~
After reading your comments, I reread Mac’s post, and I think that I responded too hastily. I had read, or misread, the meaning in his first sentence and it wrongly colored my perception of what he was actually saying, so I apologize for that and thank you for bringing that to my attention.
You also commented that I “tend” to use the phrases “You are correct” or “You are wrong.” If I have wrongly used the phrases (or sentiment) in my assessment of someone’s writing, as I did in reading Mac’s post, then, yes, I am in the wrong, and I will apologize. If, however, you are referring to the fact that I use these phrases with regard to someone’s interpretation of Scripture, I make no apology. We are told to contend for the faith (Jude 1:3), and that’s what I intend on doing. Now, if I have falsely accused someone of being scripturally wrong, then, by all means, show me where, and I will make the necessary correction and apology.
Finally, I think one thing that you have failed to notice is that what you are criticizing me for is exactly what all contributors to this site do; they just don’t always do it using those specific phrases. Some people respond to posts by saying “I agree” or “I disagree” which is saying the exact same thing. Others, like yourself, don’t use these phrases but offer detailed descriptions. For example, in your comments to me, you not only pointed out my errors (real and perceived) but pronounced judgment upon my level of understanding and implied that my perspective was scripturally unsound.
If you want to bring to my attention something specifically that I have said that contradicts the Word of God or if you want to provide an example of something that is “in dire need of being rejected,” then please do. I can’t respond to attacks on myself or to general statements that have been given without any proof.
Thank you~
Barbara
Eric says
August 23, 2012 at 1:12 pmThe dangerous myth is thinking you have to work to maintain your salvation. Then, Christ’s death is in vain. Galatians 2:21 “I do not frustrate the grace of God: for if righteousness come by the law, then Christ is dead in vain.”
We must be eternally secure in Christ, because we have NOW received the atonement. It is a present possession by trusting in the finished work of Christ alone. Romans 5:11 “And not only so, but we also joy in God through our Lord Jesus Christ, by whom we have now received the atonement.” It is a GIFT of God. Ephesians 2:8-9 “For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: Not of works, lest any man should boast.”
Tom Webster says
August 23, 2012 at 3:31 pmNobody is saying that salvation is by works or good deeds. It is the gift of God and His grace, received by faith. However, you can forfeit your own salvation by unbelief (true apostasy), repeated rebellion, returning to the world, or by wickedness. Your name can be “blotted out” from the Book of Life (see Rev 3:5).
Paul admonishes believers to
“…work out your own salvation with fear and trembling” [Phil 2:12]
Romans 8:1 (KJV)
There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.
If you “walk after the flesh,” there will be plenty of condemnation. And hypocrisy is dealt with more severely. You must “walk after The Spirit” or be led by Him. You cannot live a completely carnal lifestyle and remain “saved.”
steve morrow says
August 23, 2012 at 9:56 pmProverbs 18:2
A fool does not delight in understanding
But only in revealing his own opinion
Romans 10:2
For I bear them record that they have a zeal for GOD but not according to knowledge
2 Timothy 3:7
Ever learning and never able to come to the knowledge of the truth
John 18:37
Pilate therefore said unto HIM
Art thou a king then JESUS ANSWERED
Thou sayest that I am a king to this end
was I born and for this cause came I into
the world that I should bear witness unto
the truth
EVERY ONE THAT IS OF THE TRUTH
—HEARETH MY VOICE—
—–FOR IF RIGHTEOUSNESS COMETH BY THE LAW THEN CHRIST IS DEAD IN VAIN—–
—O LORD DOES NOT THE LAW RATHER COME BY–
—————RIGHTEOUSNESS————–
Romans 10:3
For they being ignorant of GODS righteousness and going about to establish
their own righteousness have not submitted
themselves unto GODS righteousness
Proverbs 8:7
For—MY MOUTH—shall speak truth
and wickedness is an abomination to my lips
Proverbs 8:8
All the words of —MY MOUTH—are in
—RIGHTEOUSNESS—
There is nothing froward or perverse in them
Proverbs 8:20
I lead in the way of righteousness
In the midst of the paths of judgement
Psalm 33:10
For the word of the LORD is RIGHT
and all HIS works are done in truth
Proverbs 6:23
For the commandment is a lamp and the law is light and reproofs of instruction are the way of life
Psalm 119:142
THY righteousness is an everlasting righteousness and THY law is the truth
Malachi 2:6
The law of truth was in his mouth and iniquity was not found in his lips he walked with ME in peace and equity
AND DID TURN MANY AWAY FROM INIQUITY
Malachi 2:7
For the priests lips should keep knowledge
and they should seek the law at his mouth
For he is the messenger of the LORD of hosts
Psalm 119:172
My tongue shall speak of THY word for all THY commandments are righteousness
Psalm 119:144
The righteousness of THY testimonies is
everlasting give me understanding and I shall live
Psalm 15:1
LORD who shall abide in THY tabernacle
who shall dwell in THY holy hill
Psalm 15:2
He that walketh upright and WORKETH
RIGHTEOUSNESS and speaketh the truth
in his heart—-Psalm 15:3&4&5
Luke 10:2
Therefore said he unto them the harvest truly is great
But the laborers/workers are few
Pray ye therefore the LORD of the harvest
that HE would send forth laborers into HIS harvest
Acts 10:34
Then Peter opened his mouth and said
Of a truth I perceive that GOD is no
respecter of persons
Acts 10:35
But in every nation he that feareth HIM and worketh righteousness is accepted with HIM
1 John 2:29
If you know that HE is RIGHTEOUS you know that everyone that doeth righteousness is
of HIM
1 John 3:7
Little children let no man deceive you he
that doeth righteousness is righteous even
as HE is righteous
1 John 3:10
In this the children of GOD are manifest
and the children of the devil WHOSOEVER
doeth not righteousness —IS NOT OF GOD—
neither he that loveth not his brother
Psalm 37:29-31
The righteous shall inherit the land and
dwell therein forever
(30) The mouth of the righteous speaketh wisdom and his tongue talketh judgement
(31)THE LAW OF HIS GOD IS IN HIS HEART
none of his steps shall slide
John 14:6
JESUS saith unto him
I AM THE WAY THE TRUTH AND THE LIFE
NO MAN cometh unto the FATHER but by ME
1 Corinthians 15:34
AWAKE TO RIGHTEOUSNESS and sin not
For some have not the knowledge of GOD
I SPEAK THIS TO YOUR SHAME
scholarship/man verses DISCIPLESHIP
LOVING THE FATHER AND THE LORD JESUS CHRIST
Eric says
August 24, 2012 at 7:12 amHi Tom,
Responding to this statement: “However, you can forfeit your own salvation by unbelief (true apostasy), repeated rebellion, returning to the world, or by wickedness.” My question is, if this is true, how can anyone be certain of their salvation. In other words, if I lose my salvation by “repeated rebellion,” how much rebellion is “repeated rebellion?” If I break the speed limit every day, is that repeated rebellion? When it comes to sin, we are all repeat offenders. How do you determine what is bad enough to lose your salvation, and what scriptural evidence do you have to support your conclusion? In other words, what Biblical standard can I apply to show that my sin is not bad enough to lose my salvation or it is bad enough and I need to get back on track?
Tom Webster says
August 24, 2012 at 8:59 pmHi Eric,
I appreciate the tone of your response and question. Actually, you are supposed to KNOW that you have eternal life, which is perhaps “assurance of salvation,” but this assurance is not a permanent guarantee… it is a present-faith knowledge:
1 JOHN 5:13 (KJV)
13 These things have I written unto you that believe on the name of the Son of God; that ye may KNOW that ye have eternal life, and that ye may believe on the name of the Son of God.
The AMPLIFIED Bible makes it clear that ‘believe’ is really a relationship, and is more accurately translated as ADHERE to/believe in/CLEAVE to/rely on:
I write this to you who believe in (adhere to, trust in, and rely on) the name of the Son of God [in [c]the peculiar services and blessings conferred by Him on men], so that you may know [with settled and absolute knowledge] that you [already] have life, [d]yes, eternal life.
You must continue to ABIDE in the vine (Jesus). He will never leave a believer, but a believer can leave Jesus…
For example, the prodigal son was LOST… until he repented. Paul mentions a few who “returned to the world.”
Your questions are good ones and valid, but there is no exact formula for when a person who lose his salvation. However, hopefully you would agree that someone who repents, get saved, but then quickly returns to the world, never goes to Church, never reads the Bible, constantly lies, fornicates, steals for years will not be going to Heaven. The truth is that without [personal] holiness, no one will see THE LORD:
Hebrews 12:14 (KJV)
Follow peace with all men, and holiness, without which no man shall see the Lord:
“The truth will set you free” is one of the greatest mis-quotes of all time. Most people including Pastors omit the condition:
JOHN 8:31-32 (KJV)
31 Then said Jesus to those Jews which believed on him, If ye CONTINUE in my word, then are ye my disciples indeed;
32 And ye shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you free.
If you continue to follow and DO the word, act on it in faith, only then will you even know the truth.
If you do not DO the word, you will deceive yourself!
JAMES 1:22
But be ye doers of the word, and not hearers only, deceiving your own selves.
Only God knows the heart and knows when a backslider has reached the point where he/she is [spiritually dead]. However, the Bible speaks of a progression…
The wages of sin is death…
James 1:15 (KJV)
Then when lust hath conceived, it bringeth forth sin: and sin, when it is FINISHED, bringeth forth DEATH.
1 John 5:16-17 (KJV)
If any man see his brother sin a sin which is not unto death, he shall ask, and he shall give him life for them that sin not unto death. There is A SIN UNTO DEATH: I do not say that he shall pray for it. All unrighteousness is sin: and there is a sin not unto death.
So eventually there is a progression of backsliding/consistent and persistent sin that leads to death (spiritual death, not physical death – although that might also happen). A true “apostate” is someone who falls back into unbelief, after he was saved, from which there is no return…
HEBREWS 6:4-6 (KJV)
4 For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted of the heavenly gift, and were made partakers of the Holy Ghost,
5 And have tasted the good word of God, and the powers of the world to come,
6 If they shall fall away, to renew them again unto repentance; seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put him to an open shame.
But true apostasy is rare compared to the normal ways in which people forfeit/lose their salvation. The parable of the sower also makes it clear that believers can lose their salvation:
Read MARK 4:3- (KJV)
The first group never get saved. They hear the word, but do not understand it, and/or they never repent, and act on the word in faith that was sown in their hearts. The lies of the enemy remove what was sown…
4 And it came to pass, as he sowed, some fell by the way side, and the fowls of the air came and devoured it up.
15 And these are they by the way side, where the word is sown; but when they have heard, Satan cometh immediately, and taketh away the word that was sown in their hearts.
The second group are saved, but only briefly:
5 And some fell on stony ground, where it had not much earth; and immediately it sprang up, because it had no depth of earth:
6 But when the sun was up, it was scorched; and because it had no root, it withered away.
16 And these are they likewise which are sown on stony ground; who, when they have heard the word, immediately receive it with gladness;
17 And have no root in themselves, and so endure but for a time: afterward, when affliction or persecution ariseth for the word’s sake, immediately they are offended.
You see how they only ENDURE for a short time? Once they are offended, they have “withered away” (i.e. died spiritually).
The 3rd group is probably the most common in America, especially with the “cheap Gospel” presentation which is sadly too common these days:
7 And some fell among thorns, and the thorns grew up, and choked it, and it yielded no fruit.
18 And these are they which are sown among thorns; such as hear the word,
19 And the cares of this world, and the deceitfulness of riches, and the lusts of other things entering in, choke the word, and it becometh unfruitful.
These were also saved briefly, or perhaps for a while, but return to the world, and never bear fruit… which when compared with John ch. 15 makes it clear that they are indeed lost and going to Hell:
JOHN 15:4-6
4 Abide in me, and I in you. As the branch cannot bear fruit of itself, except it abide in the vine; no more can ye, except ye abide in me. [must be 2-way relationship
5 I am the vine, ye are the branches: He that abideth in me, and I in him, the same bringeth forth much fruit: for without me ye can do nothing.
6 If a man abide not in me, he is cast forth as a branch, and is WITHERED; and men gather them, and cast them into the fire, and they are BURNED.
There are lots of other examples throughout the NT, but the important thing is that the salvation of your soul requires the “work/effort” to be transformed into the image of Christ. You must be a DOer of the world and faithful, enduring to the end. Your [human] spirit, which is re-created when you are “born again” can get corrupted or become defiled. Otherwise, Paul would not have admonished us to keep our [human] spirits “blameless”
1 Thess 5:23 (KJV)
And the very God of peace sanctify you wholly; and I pray God your whole SPIRIT and SOUL and BODY be preserved blameless unto the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ.
Returning to Matthew 24, we see that many believers will be offended, “fall away,” hate one another, etc. when the antichrist is revealed. The [agape] love of many [believers] will wax cold… This is why the pie-in-the-sky pre-Trib Rapture myth is so poisonous and deadly. Better to prepare people for the persecution and beheading (obviously Islamic). Rev. ch 2 & 3 shows that only 2 out of the 7 churches in Asia [Minor] did not need to repent. “To him who overcomes” and endures to the end. Nevertheless, just as Jesus said the persecuted church (Smyrna) was “rich” [spiritually], and promised them that they would go through tribulation, the Church will go through the Tribulation, and there will be a vast number of Tribulation saints. Jesus loves persecution and martyrdom! SHOCKING BUT TRUE. “Verily, verily, I say unto you, Except a corn of wheat fall into the ground and die, it abideth alone: but if it die, it bringeth forth much fruit. He that loveth his life shall lose it; and he that hateth his life in this world shall keep it unto life eternal.” [John 12:23-24]
And they overcame him by the blood of the Lamb, and by the word of their testimony; and they loved not their lives unto the death.
But he that shall ENDURE unto the end, the same shall be saved.
Tom Webster says
August 23, 2012 at 7:07 amIn addition, the context of Matthew 24:32-33 is ignored completely.
“Now learn the parable from the fig tree: when its branch has already become tender, and puts forth its leaves, you know that summer is near; 33 even so you too, when you see all these things, recognize that He is near, right at the door.
You need to review the previous verses to see what Jesus was discussing specifically.
MATTHEW 24:29-33 (KJV)
29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:
30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.
31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.
32 Now learn a parable of the fig tree; When his branch is yet tender, and putteth forth leaves, ye know that summer is nigh:
33 So likewise ye, when ye shall see all these things, know that it is near, even at the doors.
Jesus was specifcally telling his disciples (and us) that just like you know from the fig tree (and all the trees – Luke 21) that summer is NEAR when the leaves appear, believers WILL KNOW when His coming approaches. That is the immediate context.
When you SEE “all these things” (wars, Tribulation, signs, etc.), you will know that His coming is near…
It is of comparatively little benefit to examine the original language (Greek) when the [immediate] context is ignored. The resulting understanding and interpretation will be off-track completely. We will see this further when verses 37-42 of Matthew 24 are examined. The ones TAKEN are not taken in the rapture; they are taken to judgment/death.
Mac says
August 23, 2012 at 10:57 amTom, welcome to the group of 1. In over 30 years of ministry, you are the FIRST person with whom I have ever interacted who actually understood that the taken one is the judged one, not the raptured one. Congratulations. There should be some sort of ribbon or trophy for bringing that point to the light.
Tom Webster says
August 23, 2012 at 1:09 pmThe companion version in Luke 17:26-37 makes it even clearer that the TAKEN ones are taken to judgment/death.
In verse 37, the disciples ask Jesus WHERE the taken ones are taken to:
And they answered and said unto him, Where, Lord? And he said unto them, Wheresoever the body is, thither will the eagles be gathered together.
In my opinion, this is a clear reference to Armageddon, and the pile of bodies which the carrion birds feast on, when compared with Ezekiel 39:17-20 and Rev. 19:17-2 and the parable of the wheat and the tares in Matt. 13.
Sadly, many Bibles [incorrectly and inappropriately] reference the verse in Job for Luke 17:37, which leads to further confusion [in general].
Kernal Baus says
August 23, 2012 at 1:45 pmJerry S., for some reason I can’t reply directly to your last reply, so I don’t know if you’ll see this.
I have to correct you on some things:
1. Aramaic is not a hybrid of Hebrew. It is very similar to Hebrew, but it is not a hybrid.
2. It doesn’t matter what you think seems ‘right’ to you about what language Jesus as a boy spoke to scholars in; it only matters what the historical evidence is. The people of Palestine spoke Aramaic after they returned from Babylon where they learnt it. They wrote their commentaries in Aramaic.
3. Most Jews were taught from the LXX, not from the Hebrew. Most quotations in the NT are from the LXX.
4. Hebrew is a revived language. It was recreated for modern Israel based upon the Hebrew of the OT; thus it very similar, but it is not the same.
5. The Jews in Palestine did not ‘switch’ to Greek automatically, as you say, but many did adopt it because it had become the universal trading language. Many Jews became Greek speaking in other parts of the world (e.g. Alexandria) hence the emergence of the LXX.
Finally, I think you have to get to grips with the bald fact that ‘generation’ is the right translation for the Greek, Hebrew and Aramaic. What we have to work out is what Jesus meant when He said it.
Jerry S. says
August 23, 2012 at 4:47 pmHere I am, I do enjoy this. Thank you itemizing, it makes it easier to respond and I hope this is not too long.
1, 2. I never denied Aramaic was spoken and even used for documentation or what historical evidence shows, so no need to correct me on something I did not write. It most certainly is a hybrid. As you say, it was a result of the time spent in Babylonian exile and a mixture of the languages. Please understand, the Hebrews never gave up their identity where ever GOD sent them or better said, GOD did, does and will not give up on Israel as HE promised. Many conclusions can be drawn from historical evidence and often is.
3. I’ve done nothing but support the LXX and its differing uses. Don’t believe the Torah scrolls were written or read from it though.
4. In 1948, the land and the official language was restored by the Mighty Hand of GOD to the world as we know it today making many have to rewrite their historical commentaries. The people, the language, the written word, the GOD of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob (Israel) and all the promises made by HIM to Israel never went away. GOD always has a remnant, 2Ki 19:29-30, 1Ki 19:18. Biblically the land was named Canaan then Israel. The name Palestine was forced on the land by the Romans as a punishment well after our LORD walked with us.
5. We agree! Many of the Greek words used in an attempt to translate the Hebrew concepts of the Tanak in LXX would not be recognized by the proper or common reading Greek, thus the hybrid form because like many others the concept of a Messiah did not exist in Greek culture so existing words had to be adapted, i.e. christos.
Finally, the word “generation” was only used by me as an example to follow what Justin wrote. My greater point is always the method used to discover what was meant in the NT writings. These are Hebrew concepts, not Greek.
Only love in learning more of HIM.
J.
Ben says
August 23, 2012 at 7:51 pmMac,
You said
“The FACT of the resurrection, regardless of the TIME of it, is grounds for motivating hope in the life of the believers.”
Our Salvation (deliverance) will be completed upon the resurrection since our bodies will partake of eternal life at that time.
Matt 25:36And these will go away into everlasting punishment, but the righteous INTO eternal life.”
Mark 10:30 who shall not receive a hundredfold now in this time—houses and brothers and sisters and mothers and children and lands, with persecutions—and IN THE AGE TO COME, eternal life.
Titus 1:2 in HOPE of eternal life which God, who cannot lie, promised before time began,
Titus 3:7 that having been justified by His grace we should become heirs according to the HOPE of eternal life.
1 John 2:25 And this is THE PROMISE that He has promised us—eternal life.
Rom 8:23-24 Not only that, but we also who have the firstfruits of the Spirit, even we ourselves groan within ourselves, eagerly WAITING for the adoption, THE REDEMPTION OF OUR BODY. 24 For we were SAVED IN THIS HOPE, but hope that is seen is not hope; for why does one still hope for what he sees?
This is why Salvation is predominately spoken of in the NT as a future reality.
1 Peter 1:8-9 whom having not seen you love. Though now you do not see Him, yet believing, you rejoice with joy inexpressible and full of glory, 9 receiving the END of your faith—the salvation of your souls.
Romans 13:11 And do this, knowing the time, that now it is high time to awake out of sleep; for now our salvation is NEARER than when we first believed.
Heb 1:14 Are they not all ministering spirits sent forth to minister for those who will INHERIT salvation?
Heb 9:28 so Christ was offered once to bear the sins of many. To those who eagerly wait for Him He will appear a second time, apart from sin, FOR salvation.
1 Peter 1:5 who are kept by the power of God through faith for salvation ready to be revealed IN THE LAST TIME.
Are you saying that believers should not be concerned about when this will take place?
YOU
“If THAT is one’s anchor, the timing of eschatological issues is fanciful but not relevant to day to day living.”
The Gospel message includes the promise of the future land inheritance which is what Hebrews says is our Anchor for the soul? Should believers not be concerned about when this promise will take place? I would have to completely disagree with the notion that eschatological issues are not relevant for day to day living? One’s views on when eternal life, salvation, and the promise of the inheritance will take place plays a huge factor in how one lives out their faith on this side of the resurrection.
Ben says
August 23, 2012 at 8:32 pmEric,
You said
As I Corinthians 15:51 says, the rapture was a MYSTERY. “Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed.”
Paul tells us exactly when this mystery (rapture) will take place.
1 Cor 15:51-55 Behold, I tell you a mystery: We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed— 52 in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, AT THE LAST TRUMPET. For the trumpet will sound, and the dead will be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed. 53 For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality. 54 So when this corruptible has put on incorruption, and this mortal has put on immortality, THEN shall be brought to pass the saying that is written: “Death is swallowed up in victory.” 55 “O Death, where is your sting? O Hades, where is your victory?”
The last Trumpet occurs at Matt 24:31, Rev 10:7 at the end of the great tribulation. It will be blown upon the DAY of the LORD
Isaiah 27:13 So it shall be in THAT DAY: THE GREAT TRUMPET will be blown; They will come, who are about to perish in the land of Assyria, And they who are outcasts in the land of Egypt, And shall worship the LORD in the holy mount at Jerusalem.
When Paul says “THEN shall be brought to pass” the Greek adverb for “then” [ τότε] means “at that time”.
In v 54 Paul tells us that this particular Kingdom prophecy (Isa 25:8) will be fulfilled at the resurrection/rapture of the church.
Isaiah 25:4-10 4-“For You have been a strength to the poor, A strength to the needy in his distress, A refuge from the storm, A shade from the heat;”
This is describing the help that Christians will receive during the Great tribulation.
“For the blast of the terrible ones is as a storm against the wall. 5 You will reduce the noise of aliens, As heat in a dry place; As heat in the shadow of a cloud, The song of the terrible ones will be diminished.”
This is describing the nations being overthrown at the second coming.
6 And in this mountain The LORD of hosts will make for all people A feast of choice pieces, A feast of wines on the lees, Of fat things full of marrow, Of well-refined wines on the lees. 7 And He will destroy on this mountain The surface of the covering cast over all people, And the veil that is spread over all nations. “
This is describing the marriage supper of the lamb which occurs upon the second coming. (Revelation 19)
8 “He will swallow up death forever, And the Lord GOD will wipe away tears from all faces; The rebuke of His people He will take away from all the earth; For the LORD has spoken.”
John quotes Isaiah 25:8 in Revelation 21:4 And God will wipe away every tear from their eyes; there shall be no more death, nor sorrow, nor crying. There shall be no more pain, for the former things have passed away.”
Now if Paul says that the resurrection/rapture will take place at the time when this prophecy in Isaiah 25 is fulfilled then tell us how the resurrection is followed by this “secret rapture” of yours prior to the Tribulation?
Again Isaiah 25:8 says
8 He will swallow up death forever, And the Lord GOD will wipe away tears from all faces; The rebuke of His people He will take away from all the earth; For the LORD has spoken.
The Tribulation will be filled with plenty of death, sorrow, crying, and pain.
Eric says
August 27, 2012 at 6:19 amHi Ben,
Paul says that the rapture is a mystery. A mystery is something that was kept secret and not understood until revealed. If Paul is telling them a mystery, this mystery of the rapture must have remained a mystery until Paul revealed it to them in I Corinthians 15. Therefore, any scripture written before this cannot apply to the rapture event that Paul is talking about.
Trumpets are blown at many different times in scripture. We cannot link the trumpets of I Corinthians 15:51 with any other event mentioned before I Corinthians was written, since Paul is revealing a mystery.
You mentioned the trumpet of Matthew 24:31 where the angels gather the elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other. That verse says that the trumpet is sounded for the angels to gather the elect. I Corinthians 15 says the trumpet is sounded for the saints to be changed. I Thessalonians 4:16 says that it is the Lord Himself Who descends with that trumpet to rapture up the saints. Therefore, it is the Lord Himself who gathers the saints at the end of the grace dispensation, while it is the angels who gather the elect at the end of the prophecy dispensation. These are two different events.
The trumpet you mentioned in Revelation 10:7 is merely the sound of the seventh trumpet seen in Revelation. Revelation 11:15 says that trumpet is in relation to the kingdoms of the EARTH being taken over again by God.
What is going on in I Corinthians is something different. It is referring to the raising of the Body of Christ to go to HEAVEN, while the verses in Matthew and Revelation relate to the prophecy program. In I Corinthians, the trumpet sounds for the dead to be raised. Then there is another trump, the last trump, sounded for those alive to be raised incorruptible. The first trump is for the dead; the last trump is for those alive. It is the last trump in the sense that it is the last trump in the dispensation of grace. There are other trumpets sounded, but they are in connection with the prophecy program, the tribulation period, and Jesus’ second coming.
The trumpet in Isaiah 27:13 involves worship of God in Jerusalem. This means that this is after God’s kingdom has already started. This is a trumpet, therefore, after the trumpet sounded by the seventh angel.
Isaiah 25:6-8 is referring to the great feast of the birds found in Revelation 19:17-18, where birds feast upon the flesh of man, who has been destroyed by Jesus at His second coming. This has nothing to do with the rapture of the church in I Corinthians 15:54. The tribulation period has not even started at the rapture, while Isaiah 25:6-8 takes place after the tribulation period is over.
Isaiah 25:4 describes the help tribulation saints will receive. Christians are raptured up before the tribulation period starts.