The BLB Blog

The official blog of Blue Letter Bible

Why Do We Need a Written Revelation from God?

Posted on Posted by

There are a number of ways in which God could have chosen to reveal Himself to humanity. These include: God could have personally revealed Himself to everyone; He could have had His Word passed on by oral communication, or He could have had His Word committed to writing.

A Personal Revelation Is Not Practical

God could have chosen to personally reveal Himself to each individual, yet He did not. There would have been insurmountable problems if He had chosen this way. They include the following.

1. Not Everyone Would Be Willing To Receive It

First, not everyone would be willing to receive what God wanted to say. Some people would have to be forced to receive God’s personal revelation to them. They simply would not want to hear it.

2. The Same Message Would Have To Be Repeated

God would have had to have repeated the same message over and over again to each of us. This would seemingly be a waste of time and effort.

3. This Would Cause More Confusion

Finally, this method would lead to confusion. People would not agree with each other as to what God had revealed to them. This being the case, then the question would be, “Who would decide which person had the correct revelation from God?” Obviously some other method of God revealing Himself to humanity is necessary.

Oral Communication Is Not A Satisfactory Solution

There are a number of reasons why a written revelation is necessary rather than the message passed along by oral communication.

1. A Non-Written Message Could Be Changed

First, if we were given only an oral communication from God, then we would have a message that could be changed and misinterpreted when repeatedly told. Memory and tradition are untrustworthy guides. The more the story was repeated orally, the more the story could be changed. This would not give us much confidence in the message.

2. Which Version Should People Trust?

Moreover, if the message began to differ considerably, how would anyone know which version to trust? A revelation from God based upon oral communication would be beset with many problems. It would soon be more confusion than help.

3. Sinful Humanity Is Not Capable Of Doing This

Finally, sinful humanity is incapable of correctly passing along an infallible oral communication. Our sinful natures would keep us from accurately and truthfully passing on God’s Word by transmitting it orally.

A Written Revelation Is Absolutely Necessary

There are a number of reasons why a written revelation from God is absolutely necessary. They are as follows.

1. The Importance Of The Subject Demands It

First, the importance of the subject necessitates a revelation from God being put in writing. Because the eternal destiny of every human being hangs upon a proper response to God’s revelation, it becomes absolutely essential that it be memorialized in writing. People are then able to carefully study and discuss its contents.

2. The Message Could Be Preserved For Future Generations

Once the words and deeds have been committed to writing, the message can be preserved. This allows succeeding generations to have the benefit of seeing what the original writers said. By putting the messages in a book, such as the Bible, the truth can be preserved for future generations. God continues to speak, though the people who originally received the message have died. Therefore the truths of Scripture would be an infallible standard for all people of all ages.

God commanded the prophet Isaiah.

Go now, write it on a tablet for them, inscribe it on a scroll, that for the days to come it may be an everlasting witness (Isaiah 30:8).

The words could forever be preserved. The writer’s die; but their writings live on.

3. It Can Solve Doctrinal Issues

A written revelation also solves doctrinal controversies. If there is a question of Christian belief, the written Bible can be studied as an authoritative source. Therefore all questions have a final authority in which to resolve them.

A New Testament Example Of The Importance Of Written Scripture

In Jesus’ day when a religious question came up, the people immediately went to the Old Testament Scripture to find their answer. For example, when King Herod heard that the Christ had been born, he went to the religious leaders to find out where. They found the answer to this question in the Scriptures.

When King Herod heard this, he was frightened, and all Jerusalem with him; and calling together all the chief priests and scribes of the people, he inquired of them where the Messiah was to be born. They told him, “In Bethlehem of Judea; for so it has been written by the prophet” (Matthew 2:3-5).

When the Scriptures were cited, this solved the question once and for all.

4. It Can Be Translated Accurately To Others

Once a revelation is committed to writing, there is a greater possibility of transmitting it to those of a different language. The message can be spread and copied with the assurance that the original thoughts will stay intact. Therefore the message becomes accessible to more people.

5. This Is The Way That We Communicate

When human beings want to preserve a communication they put it in writing. Since God decided to communicate to human beings in words that we would understand it makes sense that He would use the same method that we do to preserve our own communications – He put it in writing.

6. There Is No Other Practical Way

As one thinks about the situation, there is really no other practical way in which God could have revealed Himself except in written form. How else could He have imparted His infallible standard that would be available to every human being in every age?

Summary

It is necessary that a communication from God come to humanity in writing. Personal revelation would not be practical for a number of reasons. First, not everyone would be willing to accept it. In addition, God would have to repeat the same message over and over again – a seeming waste of time. Finally, this method would cause confusion since each would interpret differently what the message said to them.

Oral communication is also not practical. Sinful humanity is just not capable of doing this task. A message that was transmitted apart from writing could and would be changed. No one would be certain as to which version of the message to trust. No authoritative source would exist.

These facts make a written revelation absolutely necessary. A written revelation is essential because of the importance of the subject. Once a message is written it can be preserved. This preserved message can also solve doctrinal questions. Also it can be translated accurately to others. Actually there is no other practical way in which God’s revelation could be given accurately to humanity.

Since human beings preserve their own communication by committing it to writing, it makes sense that God would do the same.

Comments

  1. Having a written revelation from God Jesus Christ hasn’t stopped some people from not accepting it, claimimg personal revelations or not changing it. And there are some people who are still dealing with unsolved doctrinal questions even though we have the Bible.

    Having said all that, I’m still immensely grateful we do have His written Word and BLB is a great site and tool that I use almost on a daily basis. Keep up the good work BLB team. 🙂

  2. “The message can be copied with the assurance that the original thoughts will stay intact.”I am concerned that the original words which convey the thoughts are not staying in tact with some of the horribly translated versions of the Bible,ie. the message,the international versions for appealing to diverse morality,etc. Wycliffe and its associates,SIL,and others are mistranslating the Bible into Arabic without the words,Father referring to God and Son of God referring to Jesus because it offends muslims. This has been going on for years. The end must be near when even the most trusted orgs. are turning away from the true and living Word and tending toward apostasy and people pleasing. The Jews of Jesus time were offended what gives this generation of Christians the right to change God’s Word so as not to offend anyone?

    • Sister, I , for one, would say like Mao, ” LET A THOUSAND ROSES BLOOM.” Our God reigneth, in the seeming chaos. Unwittingly each translation brings out some facets of the manifold wisdom of the word and God.They open up some hidden petals of the Rose of Sharon.He is white and ruddy- that is the real cultural revolution, HOLY REVOLUTION, GREEN REVOLUTION, GLORIOUS REVOLUTION. AMEN. GLORY, GLORY, HALLELUJAH..GOD’S TRUTH MARCHES ON. AMEN. HALLE….LUJAH!

      • Moses okays it. Num.11:29.
        Jesus sanctions it. Mark.9:38-.
        Paul permits it. Phi.1:18
        For Phi.1:18 ‘pretence’ the word ‘NATYA’ is used.
        Have you heard about “Natya Sastra” ?
        Green grace be with you all.
        Poor and needy one,
        mathew

  3. Thanks BLB! Moses put it into a song. NOW hearts &minds (2 tables!) Heb. 8; 10.. ..children that are corrupters (Isa.1:4). But Paul’s testimony is amazing and eye-opening (2Cor.2:17) Besides this He substantiates, reinforces them with signs and wonders Heb.2:4. In spite of all this we have our own INVENTIONS (Ecc.7:29). Yet God’s TRuth marches on.. Halle…lujah.
    Grace be with you all.
    Poor and needy one,
    mathew

    • Please look up the cross-references, corelations of Heb.8:10 in OT especially.
      Hence, “Keep thy heart with all diligence.. Pro.4:23.
      Also Paul’s Phi.4:7, tablets of human hearts and minds.

  4. Well, I would like to know the answer to question #2. Which is the “most trusted” version of the bible?

    • You are. You are supposed to be. Examine 2Cor.13:5!
      2Cor.3:3 God writes it in your heart and mind ( 2 stones, HARDEN NOT!) so no intruder can corrupt it.
      You are/ I am the Jasper Version !!! Note, the Pauline ‘US’ -it is a team work, the Five-fold Ministry, The Ministry after the order, manner (MANNER OF THE KING) of Melchisedec.Clear as crystal – KJV!

    • Cristal~

      Historically, the most trusted version is the King James, and although there are other good versions, there are also some corrupt ones. If you want to find out about the different versions, there is a wealth of information online. Find out what manuscripts were used in the translations as well as the beliefs of the translators themselves because some even deny the deity of Christ and other foundational doctrines. There are also charts that compare and contrast the different versions. May God bless you in your search!

    • 2. The Message Could Be Preserved For Future Generations

      It is preserved in the original greek translation. Yet the truth is still preserved in all the translations, at least for Salvation. We all have no good in the flesh that we are originally born in.
      No flesh and blood shall ever please God in God’s sight. All flesh and Blood is inherited evil from the tree of evil back at the garden. This tree is known as the knowledge of good and evil that Adam and eve ate from. But I beg to tell everyone that this tree was not the tree of knowledge of good and evil. This tree was the knowledge of EVIL, masquerading as good, deceiving Adam and Eve. For the Serphant when talking to them, created doubt in them as in saying you will know as much as God. God does not want you to know. Through this even before they ate they were tempted through doubt of what God had told them. So they ate and this knowledge of evil masquerading as Good has past down to all flesh and blood. Now I am saying this because there was still another tree in the garden,that tree was the tree of good, eternal life it was. And God put Adam and Eve out of the garden and put angels at the entrance to block off anyone getting back into the garden until the time appointed for that tree to come to life, and walk the earth in the form of the Son Jesus Christ, and redeem all mankind through the stake that he hung on (was not a cross)reconciling the whole world unto himself, last sacrifice for sin and last shedding of blood. Since the whole world has been reconciled (we All are forgiven of past, present and any future sins) how much more shall we be saved by his life. It is the life of Christ that salvation is received, that life living in you and through you via the Holy Ghost that he sent after his ascension. now when you ask for this Holy Ghost of Christ then you receive. Then one asks for this Holy Ghost to turn on the fire in them to burn out all flesh and blood in them that is their continued wrong doing. Now upon asking you shall receive. This is what is meant by asking from God the Father of christ. Anything you ask for you shall receive. This has to do with your new life in Christ. Who you are, where you go, and you will know and be in contentment. For your flesh and blood will be considered dead as you walk in the Spirit of Christ (Holy Ghost) Born again Sister. Once you consider yourself dead to the world, flesh and blood, and continue to believe this, then the Holy Ghost is in control and there is no longer a fight between flesh and Spirit. If you believe you are dead to the world, the world and its traps can no longer bother you.
      Thank you, yours truly for life continual in the Spirit of truth from God the Father of Christ

  5. Both Susan and Lynette make excellent points. In addition, the body of Christ has failed to make “disciples of all nations” (Matt. 28:19); instead, we are more concerned with making converts. Among other things, true discipleship begins from a correct understanding of Scripture. We are told to “Study to shew thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth” (II Tim. 2:15), but many believers do nothing more than read the Word. We are told, “Howbeit when he, the Spirit of truth, is come, he will guide you into all truth: for he shall not speak of himself; but whatsoever he shall hear, [that] shall he speak: and he will shew you things to come” (Jn. 16:13), but many believers rely solely upon pastors and teachers to tell them what the Word is saying. We are told that “All Scripture [is] given by inspiration of God, and [is] profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness, that the man of God may be complete, thoroughly equipped for every good work” (II Tim. 3:16-17), but many believers can’t even agree on what the Bible is even saying, so how can they be “thoroughly equipped” to walk in the fulness of God’s truth? Over the years, there has been increasing numbers of evangelicals, adults and youth, leaving the body of Christ, and many of them end up throwing religion out altogether or seeking out groups that practice religious rituals to illustrate their ‘spirituality.’ People are created to worship, but if true, spiritual worship is absent, false, physical worship will take its place. While the individual certainly has a responsibility for his or her own spiritual growth, the body of Christ, at large, is also responsible. We need to seek the truth of God’s Word, not only for our own spiritual well-being but for that of others because we are losing them.

    • SPIRITUAL x SENSUAL Jude.1:19.
      MELODY x PARODY
      POWER x FORM
      ……… x ……the list goes on..
      Thanks.
      Poor and needy one,
      mathew

    • Messenger,

      Thank you for your response. I do have several things to say about your comments on Easter and the Sabbath, however. A few weeks ago, another person posted the same concerns, which were partially based upon a video on You Tube by Nehemia Gordon, a Jewish person. Below is most of the letter that I sent him:

      One of your other concerns, which was also brought up by Gordon, is the observance of Easter and Christmas. There are a couple angles by which we can understand whether or not we should observe these holidays. The first angle is Gordon’s comment that we are not to even mention the word ‘Easter’ because of its pagan roots. My question to him, then, is does he take the same stand against the mentioning the names of days and months, many of which are named after pagan gods? I’d be willing to bet that he does not. Again, we need to look at when and why God gave this command to His people. It was before the Holy Spirit was given to dwell inside believers to enable them to fully follow God, and it was given because the nation of Israel couldn’t keep itself pure from the idolatry practiced by its pagan neighbors. God not only had to physically separate His people from others, He had to put into effect numerous laws and commands to ensure that His people would remain spiritually clean and honor Him only as God. This is why He commanded that this word not be mentioned.

      The second angle comes from examining what the word ‘Easter’ means. As you know, words are just letter symbols to which humans assign meaning in order to communicate with each other. Because they have no meaning or moral value within themselves, and because language changes, the meaning or moral value that a society places upon word symbols also changes. For example, you are old enough to know that the letter symbols g-a-y used to mean happy and merry, and to be referred to as a gay person would have been a compliment. Today, however, all of that has changed, and although the dictionary still has the original meaning entered, no one uses it this way because of the prevalent use by homosexuals. In other words, the meaning of the word doesn’t carry the same meaning as it once did, and we now understand and use it according to a modern definition. The same can be said of Easter. What started out as a pagan celebration has evolved to the point that absolutely none of its original pagan meaning or intent is evident in the holiday. We have assigned new meaning to the letter symbols E-a-s-t-e-r. It is now the time in which we observe the resurrection of Jesus Christ. As far as the bunny and eggs go, the same argument can be put forth. God created both of them, so there is nothing innately evil or pagan with either of them; they were just given evil meaning and used for evil purposes by certain groups in history. Today, we have assigned them different meaning. They are just fun additions to our welcoming of spring because, and this is crucial, all vestiges of worshipping a fertility goddess have been erased from our collective consciousness. The same goes for celebrating Christmas, and if you have ever celebrated or even observed what takes place within the body of Christ during either holiday, you would know that there is absolutely no connection between what pagans did in the past and what we do now.

      The third, and most important, angle by which we are to view these holidays is by what Scripture says. First, and I know that I sound like a broken record here, but Gordon doesn’t arrive at his doctrine with the benefit of God’s entire council. If he did, he would know that, as believers, we have freedom in Christ as Paul writes in Romans 14:4-6 which says, “Who art thou that judgest another man’s servant? to his own master he standeth or falleth. Yea, he shall be holden up: for God is able to make him stand. One man esteemeth one day above another: another esteemeth every day [alike]. Let every man be fully persuaded in his own mind. He that regardeth the day, regardeth [it] unto the Lord; and he that regardeth not the day, to the Lord he doth not regard [it]. He that eateth, eateth to the Lord, for he giveth God thanks; and he that eateth not, to the Lord he eateth not, and giveth God thanks.” Paul reiterates this freedom in Colossians 2:16-17 when he says, “Let no man therefore judge you in meat, or in drink, or in respect of an holyday, or of the new moon, or of the sabbath [days]: Which are a shadow of things to come; but the body [is] of Christ.” In these two passages, we can understand that we are free in Christ to observe days of our choice, even holy days, because it is Christ who is able to save both, the person who observes a certain day and the person who doesn’t. The only caveat, and it is a crucial one, is that each person “be fully persuaded in his own mind.” This idea is further explained in Romans 14:23 although this verse is specifically addressing the freedom one has to choose to eat meat or to eat only vegetables: “And he that doubteth is damned if he eat, because [he eateth] not of faith: for whatsoever [is] not of faith is sin.” Actually, if you read all of chapter 14, you will see the greater principle being put forth with regard to each person’s liberty in Christ. While I realize that we are not specifically talking about eating meats, the verses from Romans 14 and Colossians 2 that I included above cover many areas of concern: holidays, meats, new moons, and Sabbath days. If you don’t mind, I have included some excerpts from a paper that I did several years ago for a person who took exception to Paul’s writings, especially on eating meats offered to idols. Because there is a doctrinal thread between our discussion on Easter and the eating of meats, I have included them below in order to give additional clarification:

      I Corinthians 8:4-6: “As concerning therefore the eating of those things
      that are offered in sacrifice unto idols, we know that an idol [is] nothing in the world, and that [there is] none other God but one. For though there be that are called gods, whether in heaven or in earth, (as there be gods many, and lords many,) But to us [there is but] one God, the Father, of whom [are] all things, and we in him; and one Lord Jesus Christ, by whom are] all things, and we by him.”

      Taking this into the next category, being a stumblingblock is the reason for Paul’s entire teaching on eating meats sacrificed to idols in I Corinthians 6, 8, and 10 so, again, please read all three chapters in both versions to learn not only what his views are but the reasons behind them. Chapter 8 is especially insightful and clear. Paul is saying that we all have knowledge, and the knowledge is that Jesus Christ has declared that all meats are clean as he writes in Romans 14. He then makes the point that believers are to operate in charity (love) which edifies rather than just knowledge which can puff up so, while believers have the
      knowledge that they can eat all meats, using that liberty may become a stumblingblock to others. Paul’s reason for teaching that eating meats offered to idols is within the will of God is that the reality of life is that there is only one God and one Lord and that idols are absolutely nothing, so anything, including meats offered to idols also means absolutely
      nothing; it’s just meat. However, some new believers don’t have this knowledge and their consciences, because they are still weak in faith, are defiled, a reference to the self-condemnation that comes from going against what one believes as written in Romans 14. In I Corinthians 10:28-29, Paul warns, as he does in Romans, that believers are not
      to use their liberty if it will be a stumbling block: “But if any man say unto you, This is offered in sacrifice unto idols, eat not for his sake that shewed it, and for conscience sake: for the earth [is] the Lord’s, and the fulness thereof: Conscience, I say, not thine own, but of the other: for why is my liberty judged of another [man’s] conscience?”

      The third category that Paul discusses is the forbidden animals of the Old Testament. In Colossians 2:16, Paul says, “Let no man therefore judge you in meat, or in drink, or in respect of an holyday, or of the new moon, or of the sabbath [days].” One of the points that you put forward to uphold the OT ban on specific animals in Deuteronomy and Leviticus as well as to prove that Paul was a false prophet and his epistles bogus is that Paul was the only one who said anything contrary to the OT law. If you go to Acts, a book written by Luke, not Paul, you will see that Peter, not Paul, on two separate occasions, confirms Paul’s instruction that the animals that were once forbidden are now declared clean by God (10:11-16, 11:5-10). While it is true that the other point that God was putting forth to Peter was that he was to accept the Gentiles because God had declared them clean, to say that this is the only application is wrong. Just to clarify that Peter was referring to the meats in the OT, he said, “for I have never eaten any thing that is common or unclean” (10:14), so we know that he was, indeed, talking about the forbidden animals of Deuteronomy and Leviticus.

      Throughout his epistles, Paul’s entire point is that while all meats are permissible to eat, believers are never to use their liberty in Christ to offend another person. In I Corinthians 6:12 he says, “All things are lawful unto me, but all things are not expedient: all things are lawful for me, but I will not be brought under the power of any.” His point is that those who don’t eat meat at all, who don’t eat meat sacrificed to idols, or who don’t eat the meats in Leviticus and Deuteronomy give thanks unto the Lord, and those who do eat them also give thanks unto the Lord. However, he isn’t going to allow either belief system to control him. In the OT, the Jews or “clean” people were “of the Lord.” In the NT, the formerly “forbidden” or “unclean” people are now “clean” and “unto the Lord” and so are all formerly forbidden foods when eaten with conviction and thanks.  While each individual decides for himself whether a particular food is clean or unclean, Scripture doesn’t forbid any food. In fact, it has some very strong words about those people who say that it does and who teach that it does:

      “Now the Spirit speaketh expressly, that in the latter times some shall depart from the faith, giving heed to seducing spirits, and doctrines of devils; Speaking lies in hypocrisy; having their conscience seared with a hot iron; Forbidding to marry, [and commanding] to abstain from meats, which God hath created to be received with thanksgiving of them which believe and know the truth. For every creature of God [is] good, and nothing to be refused, if it be received with thanksgiving: For it is sanctified by the of God and prayer” (I Tim. 4:1-5).

      Taking all things, especially Scripture, into consideration, then, we can see that the observing of Easter and Christmas are biblically sound. Because I am personally “fully persuaded in [my] own mind” and do so in faith, then I have the liberty in Christ to celebrate these holidays. You also have the same freedom not to celebrate them because you are fully persuaded and act in faith. The sin would be if a person thinks observing them are wrong but celebrates them anyway for some reason. I do have a question, though. You wrote, “And as far as your easter ham, just remember that it was a violation of the dietary laws that separated God from man.” Where did you get this idea? Man was separated from God in the Garden of Eden when Adam and Eve partook of the fruit of the tree of knowledge of good and evil (Gen. 2:17, 3). The dietary laws weren’t given until Moses, and that was over two thousand years later, so it wasn’t the violation of them that separated man from God. In addition, the fruit of tree of knowledge of good and evil had nothing to do with later dietary restrictions. It was put into the Garden to give mankind a choice to be either God-ruled or self-ruled. I also came across another excerpt that seems appropriate for what we are discussing, so I included it:

      When one is saved, the veil is taken away from our hearts, and the Spirit of the Lord gives us liberty (II Cor. 3:16-17). In this liberty, “…with open face beholding as in a glass the glory of the Lord, are changed into the same image from glory to glory, [even] as by the Spirit of the Lord” (v 18). In other words, we are changed into the very glory of God! What, then, are those things that define God’s righteousness, the character after which we are to seek that will meet this end? If a person takes a Nazarite vow and denies himself grapes and grape seeds and grape skins, and wine, has he really found the righteousness of God, the glory of God? Do these things really define the sublime and eternal nature of Almighty God that we are to desire with all ” thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind, and with all thy strength” (Mk. 12:30b)? If a person observes certain external festivals, are these indicative of the eternal character of God after which we are to desire and to model our lives? As the Matthew 6:33 verse says, we are to seek after “God’s kingdom.” His kingdom is not of this world (Jn. 18:36); it is a spiritual kingdom; hence, all things pertaining to it are spiritual, not physical. His law, which is spiritual, is in our hearts and minds by the power of the Holy Spirit in believers, not on external objects that will perish. His authority, which is spiritual, comes by the power of the Holy Spirit within the believer, to exercise God’s will over the spiritual and physical realm, not by men who exert lordship over other men according to the flesh. His provision, which is spiritual, is manifest by the Holy Spirit within a believer (Is. 54:13) and is not dependent upon man’s understanding and ability. This is what is meant by Paul’s words that “For of him, and through him, and to him, [are] all things: to whom [be] glory for ever. Amen” (Rom. 11:36). Everything that represents God’s righteousness, His eternal nature and kingdom is found in His spiritual law, His spiritual authority, and His spiritual provision which comes of Him (from Him), through him (into us), and to him (returning to him). This is the “good, and acceptable, and perfect will of God.” This is why God gets all the glory. God’s righteousness, His perfect nature, is not found in the physical observance of holy days or festivals or foods or the external displays of His Word, but in His spiritual law (Ten Commandments), authority (rod), and provision (manna) being reflected in us through our spiritual rebirth and allowing the Holy Spirit to change us spiritually to reflect God Who is Spirit.

      Have a blessed day!
      Barbara

      • To me it is like a Burning Bush, that lets people draw near and look into it and discover the truth behind it. It is like a Class Teacher’s initial show to grab the attention of the distracted, disinterested bunch of learners.
        But you have to take off your dirty shoes..
        Just imagine a world where, no trace of Xmas or Easter is heard or seen at all. So all the fanfare, paraphernalia is just the initial, not even 101, of the real thing in store for you by the Master Teacher!! We have a saying, do not fight over the husk in the pigsty like the prodigal, while the kernel is… you fill it!
        SON,…AND ALL THAT I HAVE IS THINE..
        IT WAS MEET, IT IS MEET.. but never throw the MANCHILD with the bathwater, for God’s sake. For..2Cor.13:8; Luke.15:31-32.
        Simply put, let your MODERATION..let not the MEANING be lost.. Help us O, Lord. Amen.
        Grace be with you all.
        poor and needy one,
        mathew

    • Deb~

      I have heard many people make the statement that if people leave the church, it is because they weren’t really saved to begin with. This never made sense to me because, even on the most basic level, I couldn’t understand why mankind’s free agency only extended to his God-given ability to accept Christ but was somehow rescinded when it came to rejecting Him. I know that the idea of a true, born-again believer according to John 3:3 being able to lose his or her salvation is thought of by some as nothing short of heresy, and there are many verses that would appear, if read in isolation, to support that position. However, we are to read and study all relevant verses when formulating doctrine (II Tim. 3:16). In other words, it isn’t enough that I can find a verse to support my opinion and another person can find a verse that supports theirs because all we end up with, then, is a game of scriptural volleyball, not the eternal truth that God has given us.

      Because I wanted to find out for myself whether a person could lose his or her salvation, a topic that is second only to the salvation message itself, I have spend a great deal of this past year researching the Word, taking into account all relevant verses. The key word that guided all of my study was “reconcile.” I took all the verses that are used in support of each viewpoint, and I reconciled them to arrive at the truth. To those who are of the opinion that believers cannot lose their salvation, please remember that it only takes one verse to prove otherwise. Here are three:

      ~II Thessalonians 2:3 says, “Let no man deceive you by any means: for [that day shall not come], except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition.” The phrase “falling away” is apostasia (Strong’s G646), and it means “defection, apostasy.” Only a believer can aposticise.

      ~I Timothy 4:1 says, “Now the Spirit speaketh expressly, that in the latter times some shall depart from the faith, giving heed to seducing spirits, and doctrines of devils.” “To depart” means to withdraw, desert, fall away, shun (aphistemi, Strong’s G868). One cannot “depart from the faith” unless one, first, has the faith. These people did believe, but they departed because they considered, believed and, then, followed false doctrines.

      ~John 15:5-6 says, “I am the vine, ye [are] the branches: He that abideth in me, and I in him, the same bringeth forth much fruit: for without me ye can do nothing. IF a man abide not in me, he is cast forth as a branch, and is withered; and men gather them, and cast [them] into the fire, and they are burned” (Jn. 15:5-6, caps mine). There are many “if” verses that prove that, while our initial salvation is free, our final salvation is not.

      I know that many who are reading this want to respond by citing verses such as Matthew 28:20; John 6:37-40, 15:16, 17:12; and the many ideas put forth in Romans 8:28-39 but, again, and I can’t stress this enough, they must be reconciled with the three verses above as well as numerous other verses and, believe me, there are many. Earlier I wrote about believers leaving the body because they are not equipped in the Word. One great proof that we are not studied in the Word, that we don’t rightly divide it, and that we don’t rightly live by it is II Chronicles 7:14 which says, “If my people, which are called by my name, shall humble themselves, and pray, and seek my face, and turn from their wicked ways; then will I hear from heaven, and will forgive their sin, and will heal their land.” All we need to do is look at the condition of our country to know that this verse is a testimony against us, not the unbelievers. I can’t help but wonder how much different our lives would be and how much stronger our testimonies would be to a dying world if we followed God as we claim we do, and this begins with studying the Word and allowing the Holy Spirit to guide us into all truth (Jn. 16:13).

      God bless you!
      Barbara

      • Sister, your conclusion is sane and sound. I was wondering if I could add ‘Apostolic (Acts.2:42) X Apostate’ too to my list of antonyms above. I think divorce would have been a mere daydream, at least in the church, if once saved always saved were true. Our God hastes DIVORCE (Mal.2:16), putting away sin, not spouse is his avowed agenda. Amen.
        Grace be with you all.
        Poor and needy one,
        mathew

      • barbara, I like what you say except this about one losing their salavation. One that has been translated into the kingdom has salvation period and no one can snatch them out of his hand and no weapon formed against the one that has received the whole truth, has the holy ghost living not only in them yet through them shall ever prosper.
        It does take one seeking the truth the truth that sets one free from flesh and blood. so when one has been pulled out of the garbage can and set at the kings table through belief and in mature in growth. Like a green apple on a tree. Th apple is not mature yet. which is where ones belief starts, and shall be saved, if they truly are seeking. Or are they wanting to be accepted by the group. Looking for something like a husband or wife, a good job, things to do with the earth. I tell you god, knows the heart of every person here, their motive. So we have many actors in this world that do a good job of acting as if they are in Christ. Salvation has not taken place if they are not seeking the kingdom of Heaven period above all else.
        The only ones that come to know the truth and get set free out of bondage are those that are really seeking God the creator of all.
        A worm one day has metamorphesis and is translated into a butterfly. Once a butterfly. there is no conscience of ever being a worm again. By the one sacrifice of Christ and the last shedding of blood, the whole world is reconciled unto god. Yet not all have received this, now when one does receive that they are forgiven period and that there is no more sacrifice for sin period. Then ones conscience is purged complete and there is no more being a worm. You are a butterfly. The ones that left had a diferant motive than to know God, so they never believed to begin with if they had; God who is faithful would have showed them
        Love you, Howard

        • Hi Howard~

          Thank you for responding. With all due respect, your comment that “By the one sacrifice of Christ and the last shedding of blood, the whole world is reconciled unto god” is incorrect. Christ’s sacrifice didn’t reconcile the whole world to God; it provided the possibility for the whole world to be reconciled to God. This is made very clear in John 3:16 which says, “For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.” Although Christ died for the entire world as the word “whosoever” (pas, Strong’s G3956) proves, only those in the world who “believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.”

          As I wrote in my post, I spent the last year studying this very issue. I know all the arguments, and I have reconciled all relevant Scripture, but I don’t want anyone to take my word for it. What I want is for everyone to study Scripture to find out for themselves because I Thessalonians 5:21 tells us to “Prove all things; hold fast that which is good.” The problem with most people’s arguments is that they pick one or two verses to support their position and close their eyes to the ones that oppose their position. This is not scriptural. We need to let Scripture, all Scripture, reveal itself to us without our own bias. I cited three verses (II Thes. 2:3, I Tim. 4:1, Jn. 15:5-6) to prove that a true believer can lose his or her salvation. The first two aren’t difficult to read at all because they aren’t laden with symbolism and figurative language; consequently, their meaning is plainly clear. Although the John verses use figurative language, we understand what it means, and we also understand what the word “if” means, so interpreting these verses isn’t difficult either.

          As I said, it only takes one verse to prove the once-saved, always-saved doctrine wrong, and I gave three, which is only a few out of the many. It isn’t enough that someone can find verses to contradict what I have said; that person also has to prove why my interpretations of these verses is wrong. If I’m wrong, then I want to know, but I want to know using the whole council of God.

          I hope you have a blessed day!
          Barbara

          • hey barbara i am not going to get into a sword fight with you. But yes we are all reconciled from God’s vantage point and completely forgiven through Christ’s finished work at the cross
            Romans 5:10 being reconciled through the death of his Son how much more are we saved by his life. and John the babtist, said behold the lamb of God that takes away the sin of the world. This would be from God the Father’s vantage point. You can think you can lose your salvation all you want and work in the energy of your own flesh, yet God is not pleased of the flesh and God condemned all sin to the flesh. and we are to be born again of the Spirit of God, considering our flesh to be dead daily as paul said. Anyway Sister Sorry you think you can lose your salvation. You must be working awfully hard to keep what salvation you think you have through the works you are doing, yet stressed out behind closed doors. When we are called out of the stress of this evil World, away from law, the letter of unto LOVE (God’s) and God will never forsake me nor leave me, or you.
            Flesh will give me a snake, But God who can only be worshipped in Spirit and truth will not leave the believer ever. The devil came to kill, steal and destroy, But Christ came to give life and give it more abundantly. To say that one can lose their salvation is hyprocrisy and a lie from the evil one. Jesus in Collosians has been made above all, and when he gave as he gave up the ghost on te cross he yelled it is finished John 19:30 he fullfilled the old covenant law of Moses as he said he was here to do Matt 5:17. Then in Hebrews 9:15-17 is the new covenant that did not come into play until the death. Your sins and lawless acts have been put behind God the Fathers’ back never to see again. So once you receive this fact then one goes onto the new life saved by the life ressurectioon of christ. Receiving the Holy Ghost as The disciples did.
            Anyway Sister, please god is faithful and will do what God set out to do as long as we seek his mercy, receive it and give this mercy to all
            Love you Howard

    • Deb~

      I had another thought that I would like to share. When any premise is put forth, it needs to be supported with some kind of proof. Obviously, and you know this, we can’t just say anything we want and expect it to be accepted as truth. As I wrote, I have heard many people say what you posted, that “They are leaving because they were never saved to begin with…unfortunately.” If this is true, then there has to be scriptural proof. Can you provide any Scripture to support your claim, keeping in mind that Matthew 7:21 and similar verses are addressing something entirely different? In other words, where is the scriptural proof that just because a person leaves the body of Christ that it automatically means that he or she wasn’t ever saved? Thanks!

      Your sister in Christ~
      Barbara

  7. Brother Chris : Shalom to all , Excellant Post !!! The Written ” Word of God ” is our Guide !!! Sister Susan Frigge : Shalom Quot ; ” Dealing with unsolved Doctrinal Questions ” ? Since we are the body of Christ and Jesus said to bare one anothers burdens : Do Tell , please your Questions O K ??? I am sure that one of us could help you Biblicaly with your concerns on your walk with God !!! God is Love 1John4: 1 – 8 and he Cares Deeply for his Sheep ; but he also tells us to ” Test the Spirits ” Of Believers Who are teaching the Sheep ; By their Fruits you will know if they line up to the Word of God !!! Revealations of God were and still are ” Revealed ” as Men were moved to Speak by the Holy Spirit… !!! Three things Testify of having the Holy spirit ; 1: Baptism ; 2 : Blood ( John 6 : 25-27 , 53-56 Not just ” lip service ” you are what you eat and drink !!! ? ) ; 3 : the Spirit ( Your Spirit or breath of Life in full submission to God*s Will testifying of Jesus – the Word of God ! OT and NT !) Faith Hope Peace Mercy Love from Mount Zion Duet.12:11 ; Psalms 2:6-7 bless everyone amen shalom :-)!!!

  8. I always appreciate the effort, but want to add:

    Luk 16:31
    And he said unto him, If they hear not Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded, though one rose from the dead.

    If God almighty were to appear in his glory to each person on their sixteenth birthday to reveal Him self and his plan, people would claim. This is nothing special. Our biology has simply adapted a culturally accepted hallucination for some not yet understood evolutionary advantage to the species.

    Some will read and hear others will not. I hear and believe.

    Jerry

  9. Brother Jerry : shalom , So If I was Dysphuntional ( was lied to about festivals or Holidays ( God had HOLY DAYS * Note * Holy – Holi * The devil is a trickster *? ! )from my Parents … and they learned from their Parents , ETC. !!! I understand your point brother … but people are just creatures of Habits …what has been passed through out the ages … !!! God doesn*t want NO ONE to perish , but to come to Repentance … !!! How can they come to repentance if the Gospel of Jesus is Not Being Preached Right … ??? For even satan disguizes himself as an angel of Light Bro ; I as Others EXPOSE the devil*s LIES !!! ? Glory to God through Christ amen shalom :-)!!!

    • SO RUN THAT YOU MAY OBTAIN (1Cor.9:24; 1Thes.5:9; 2Tim.2:10)

      Brother, sabbath is a shadow, you have fallen from grace, Paul says. Our Jesus healed with the finger of God on sabbath. He is the Lord of Sabbath too. If the word has no place in you you are a Christ killer even today (Jn.8:37; Heb.6:5). So be thou instructed. Submit to God.
      R U the real messenger or shall we wait for another? We do not celebrate days, even Sabbath,so try our church,come. Let none deceive you with a paltry ONE DAY SABBATH, 1-DAY CHRISTMAS INSTEAD OF A LIFELONG CELEBRATION (Pro.15:15). Shadows flee away, but substance (faith) abides on. God’s truth marches on.. But in the Market place of ideas, they sell all kinds of new-fangled COCKTAILS (Rev.18:6). They have a”Start smoking Counter” & a “Stop smoking Counter”; a “tattoo center” & a “Tattoo Removal Booth”. First DESIRE, then DRINK (1Pet.2: Be not deceived. god has equipped you with 2 strong HINDS’FEET (Hab.3). RUN, RUN, but not like the “NUNS ON THE RUN” 9NEWS). Paul says, ” SO RUN THAT YOU MAY OBTAIN.”

      P.S: habits are changed when you become a HABITATION Eph.2:22 !!!
      Green grace be with you all.
      Poor and needy one,
      mathew

  10. Good morning; some interesting comments. I’d like to bring the conversation back around to the salient point: the fact that God chose to present the Gospel to us in written form. Notwithstanding Jerry’s note above, I’m really of two minds. There are days when I look to the heavens and ask God, “Why can’t you just reveal yourself to the world?”

    It would be so much easier.

    But what little He has revealed to me through Scripture answers the question. God revealed Himself to Israel – God’s chosen people – through Jesus. But because the message that Jesus taught did not line up with what the religious establishment had become, He was crucified.

    Would our society accept Him any more?

    As much as I yearn for His return, all I can do is keep watch because I don’t know the day He will come.

    I have His Word and His Spirit. All I can do is try my best to follow, picking myself up when I stumble.

    Great service like that performed by the good people at BLB is most appreciated.

    God bless and keep up the good works!

    X

    • Brother/Sister, then we miss the thrill of the amazing discovery!
      Even if Jesus stages a second Christmas in the manger or a Palace, he would be crucified, make no mistake. We learn from History, that we do not learn from His- story. Amazing grace…
      Grace, vigorous, verdant, virile, be with you all.
      Poor and needy one,
      mathew

  11. To Barbara: well done on your study and use of God’s Word in references. To Howard: nice thoughts but no scripture references. My husband being from a ‘once saved always saved’ background which by the way is one of the tenets of Calvinism and I from a purely pagan like background coming into the Word without preconceived traditions have argued this for 40 years of marriage. His argument is the works argument,which sin do I lose my salvation over,taking the pencil from work or looking at a sexualized billboard or being in a really fallen state for length of time? [Grace not works argument.] My argument is that apostasy as Barbara so eloquently referenced from The Bible would be the cause of someone losing their salvation. Dying in that apostasy would be the final loss,but even at the last breath one might repent.Yahweh and Yeshua will judge that condition.
    Anyway the debates go on and I am fine with debating as long as the translated Word is accurate from the original languages and not corrupted by man’s need to insert their minds and will into God’s powerful mighty Word and thus deceive millions. John 1:1-3.

    • Lynnette, Sorry but, you who have read the word do not recognize the scriptures qouted, and you do not know, as Nicodemus did not know. I do not need to back up verses, that like as John the baptist that said behold the lamb of God that takes away the sin of the world. John the babtists’ Job on earth was to announce the Messiah when John saw the dove descend on The Messiahs shoulder. When this took place John’s Job was over and John even stated that he must decrease and Christ must increase. He also said the He (john)only babtized with water, but Christ he babtizes with the Holy Spirit and with fire. Then there is only one faith, one lord, one babtism. So is it water babtism? or The holy Ghost with fire? So Jesus did what John said he took away the sin of the world or he did not? If he did not then salvation is not possible for we are still under the law of Moses. And no flesh and blood can attain the whole law . If you fail in one part you fail the whole law and no possibility to make it to heaven. Oh wait a minute yes if you so much as lust after another woman, gouge out your eyes, better for part of you to go to heaven than for all of you to enter hell. If you are even angry you are in danger of judgement. You see this way that Jesus exposed to those in his day here on earth, were annilated, for there was no way they could ever be perfect. Jesus showed them this and they still refused to believe in him. So this way that Jesus showed you would end up being a torso going to heaven, through the sins committed, in response to go to heaven. All of ones limbs, tongue, eyes, nose would be cut off in order to go to heaven.
      Even the disciples asked Jesus how then is it possible to go to heaven, after hearing the Lord’s prayer that he asked them to pray. Jesus replied with Man it is impossible, but with God all things are possible. So God paved the way through the cross where all sins are behind his back never to see again, once the believer believes God at God’s word. This for your sakes is Hebrews 9:15-17,the new covenant was not in place until Jesus died. but read on the whole story, where all your sins are behind the Fathers back never to see again
      You who have read scripture you should know these things as Nicodemus should have known about being born again. God is a Spirit and can only be worshipped in Spirit and truth. Paul said that he serves the law of sin and death with the flesh, yet he serves the law of God with the inward man, which is the Holy Ghost. The same Holy Ghost that Jesus said to the disciples will come to them as he ascended to the right hand of God his Father. Now this same holy Ghost is the same Holy Ghost that led Jesus. So now all you that believe tag on, and be led as Jesus himself was led. No more worries as if you are obeying or not, for the Holy Ghost is through you. No time for you are now led by the Spirit of truth, into the truth tat sets you free, For the Holy Ghost makes no mistakes. JUST STEP OUT OF ADAM AND INTO CHRIST. Start the new life. If you are so busy with the new life, then the old one is gone. As a man thinks in his heart so is he. we are all designed this way. you are still in your sin it is because you are thinking about it. Sin takes occasion by the commandment. We need to die to our flesh and blood that we all were originally born with. Submit this to god and God will give you life.
      Love you all here. I know everyone here believes that the truth will set you free, as I just said in a lot of words. And so you do not believe what has just been said.
      So if you do believe that the truth will set you free, then if anyone here reading this are in BONDAGE, then there is error in your truth and you are not free, you might need to go to God and find out where this error is, and God who is faithful will so you that no flesh and blood in his sight will ever please him, just like the blood of bulls and goats did not please him, but his Son did please him. So this last sacrifice was and is the way to salvation starting with belief in him. We can now approach the throne of grace in confidence today for those that believe, god through Christ has purged your conscience from sin.
      Again GOD JUST LOVES YOU ALL THIS MUCH. It is awesome. This is GOD-quill, not ny-quill so you can rest medicine in him
      Again. I am not looking to pull out swords, just speaking God’s truth that = Love (God’s)
      Man oh man God just loves you. So quit initiating God’s love, because God is the initiator and we are the responders to this love, mystery that I just wrote to you in a lot words, explaining the mystery of salvation
      Howard
      Howard

    • Heb.6:4-8.
      Also the Lord’ messages to the seven churches in Rev.
      Thanks sister. Now the just shall live by faith Heb.10:38-39. Perdition or perfection, it is our choice too. Amen.

  12. Any one of you go to my blogspot and see this freedom of grace that is talked about. I tell you it cannot hurt to look and read, and be set free as the truth does set one free from rules and regulations, thus they end up obeying them, yet not you, but the holy ghost through you does. So you can rest if you are tired of trying to please God by what you are doing. You know the Israelites could not do it either. If they could then there would have been no need for Jesus the savior to have come and redeem the world from Father’s vantage point. It all starts with the foundation that no other man can lay. Be careful how you build, because anything I, you or you build would be flesh and blood and all flesh and blood has been condemned. So ask The Holy Ghost to take over and start the fire in you to burn out the flesh and blood. Remember Jesus came with the Holy Ghost and with fire. Check it out and see for yourself
    Howard