The Anti-Trinity

antitrinity

Guest post by Thaddeus Williams

Immanuel Kant thought that, ”Taken literally, absolutely nothing worthwhile for the practical life can be made out of the doctrine of the Trinity” (The Conflict of the Faculties, 1798). I am convinced by Scripture and experience that the great German philosopher could not have been more wrong on this point. The one God who exists as three inter-loving Persons has everything to do with “the practical life.” The Trinity is a precious and practical doctrine, one that touches all of life—how we break anti-loving cycles in our hearts, how we pray, how we worship, how we do church, how we build relationships, etc.

Perhaps Kant’s assessment was informed by a failure of 18th century European churches to intentionally live out Trinitarian realities. As J. Scott Horrell laments, “We have done little to consciously express Trinitarian belief in our daily lives and in the community and mission of the church” (“An Ontology of Mission” in Global Missiology, Vol. 1 No. 6 [2008]). In other words, we need not only Trinitarian orthodoxy—correct doctrine of the Trinity—but also Trinitarian orthopraxy—correct practice that accurately reflects the reality of one God who exists as three inter-loving Persons. Jesus prayed for His church to form a kind of angled mirror, bonded together with the kind of love that directs the world’s gaze upward to behold the Triune God of love (Jn. 17:11-24). Are we reflecting the Triune God clearly, or do our churches often form more of a cracked mirror, fragmented shards with animosities and apathies caked like mud, refracting little light from above?

THE ANTI-TRINITY

We could list many reasons why churches fail to clearly reflect Trinitarian reality to the world. I’d like to focus, briefly, on just one reason that is rarely considered. I am convinced that one reason we often fail to reflect the Trinity is that we often do not have a robust enough doctrine of the anti-Trinity. Before sewing a scarlet H onto my tweed jacket, allow me to explain what I mean by “the anti-Trinity”:

Trinitarian heresies tend to focus on one divine Person or another while devaluing the other two. Arius from the 4th century upheld the Father’s divinity while devaluing the Son and Spirit. Many within today’s “Jesus Only” movement have done the same with the Son, at the expense of the Father and Spirit, and so on. A biblical view of the Trinity demands that our theology is not FATHER, son, and holy spirit. Or father, SON, and holy spirit. Or father, son, and HOLY SPIRIT. A biblical view exalts the one God who exists as FATHER, SON, AND HOLY SPIRIT—all equally divine Persons, each worthy of worship, love, and awe.

Yet the Bible also reveals an unholy anti-Trinity—three destructive forces at work against the Triune Creator’s mission. Protestant Reformers, like Martin Luther, saw this three-headed monster accurately as the Devil, the Flesh, and the World. I call these three “the anti-Trinity,” not because they afford us with some kind of analogy of how one God could exist as three Persons (they offer no such analogy), but because the Devil, the Flesh, and the World are set directly at odds against the redemptive mission of the Triune God. We must not downplay the reality of any of these three destructive forces as we join the Triune God’s mission.

Biblically, just who are the members of the anti-Trinity?

THE DEVIL

The Devil cannot be allegorized away as some fictional villain, like Darth Vader or the Joker. In the Bible, Satan and his legions are really there and launch daily warfare against God. Whereas the Father—the first member of the holy Trinity—is our great “Justifier,” declaring us “not guilty,” (Rom. 3:26), a God who “never lies” (Tit. 1:2) and who “gives life” (Ac. 17:25), the first member of the anti-Trinity is the great “accuser” (Lk. 22:21; Jn. 12:31), “the father of lies” who “was a murderer from the beginning” (Jn. 8:44). We must prayerfully suit up with the armor of faith, truth, and the gospel, and fight back against Satan’s power with Scripture’s power (Eph. 6:10-18). If we ignore the first member of the anti-Trinity then we live out a kind of oxymoronical “Christian naturalism,” oblivious to invisible warfare, naked on the battlefield, duped by the Devil’s great trick of convincing the world that he isn’t real.

If, however, we stop with the “father of lies” then we become a kind of inverted mirror image of the Arian who limits His concept of God only to the Father. As Arianism keeps people from engaging in worship of the Son and the Spirit as they should, so limiting our concept of evil to the Devil keeps us from engaging in warfare against the Flesh and the World as we should. With such an inadequate view of the anti-Trinity, we end up with an unhealthy, superstitious fixation on the invisible world. We find Satan in every sniffle, fear demons in every dark corner, and blame Beelzebub for our own self-induced blunders. “The devil made me do it,” we may say, when in reality, “My own stupidity and addiction to the rush of sin made me do it.” We end up more preoccupied with “the father of lies” (Jn. 8:44) than focused on “the Father of Lights from whom all good things come” (Jam. 1:17).

THE FLESH

The second unholy member of the Bible’s anti-Trinity was often referred to by Paul as “the flesh.” By “flesh” Paul did not mean our hundred-or-so pounds of carbon and H20. Rather by “the flesh” Paul referred to the sin nature, that deep drive within all of us to do things our own way, by our own power, for our own glory. It’s that force inside you like a giant invisible magnet pulling you back into those same old selfish sins. It is the force that the great Russian novelist (and notorious gambling addict), Dostoyevsky, knew so well when he observed that “in every man, a demon lies hidden.” Or as INXS sang, “Every single one of us has a devil inside.”

Narrowing our view of evil to demons out there causes us to ignore the the “demon” in here, the evil propensities within our own hearts, the fact that, in a sense, we are all “possessed” by that evil force Paul called our “flesh.” What are we to do with the second member of the anti-Trinity? Paul, again using warfare terminology, commands us to “kill” it prayerfully by the power of the Holy Spirit (Rom. 8:13). The Puritans used to call this sacred duty “mortification.” If we are not orthodox enough in our view of the anti-Trinity, if we limit our concept of evil only to the Flesh, then we may grow preoccupied with ourselves, morbidly introspective, and stray armorless into spiritual warfare against the Devil out there.

THE WORLD

The Bible’s third member of the anti-Trinity is “the world.” The Bible does not picture the 6.6 sextillion ton sphere of heavy elements spinning around the sun as some evil force (God called that world “good” when he made it). Rather, the World as an evil entity refers more to the “spirit of the age,” the social system that hails greedy consumption, radical self-assertion, constant pleasure-center brain stimulation, and boundless sexual exploration as seminal virtues (1 Jn. 2:16; Eph. 4:17-20; 2 Pet. 2:12-14). It is a system that measures people’s stature in terms of the cars on their driveway, the zeroes on their bank statement, and the notches on their bedpost. Friendship with this World system (again using the Bible’s warfare language) is to make ourselves “an enemy” of the God who wants so much more for His creatures (Jam. 4:4).

We are not commanded, however, to build cult compounds, stockpiled with guns behind high walls sealed off safely from this world. We are called to live in this world in a radically countercultural and redemptive way. We are to think of ourselves like Paul, as “crucified to the world” (Gal. 6:14), too dead and nailed to a cross to leap off and indulge in its falsely advertised, ultimately unsatisfying, and self-destructive pleasures. We are to be non-conformists against “the pattern on this world” (Rom. 12:2), refuting a system of self-exaltation with lives of irrefutable, self-sacrificial love.

Again, limiting our concept of evil to this member of the anti-Trinity, leaves us detrimentally imbalanced. We find ourselves on a self-righteous crusade against all the evil forces in culture, e.g., those socialist lefties out there, those God-hating pagans out there, those Christmas-banning secularists out there. We disregard the evils in here, the corruption in our own hearts. It is, after all, far easier to blame the unbelieving world than face ourselves squarely in the mirror. Is it any wonder with such an inadequate view of the anti-Trinity that the loudest spokesmen against culture’s evils are so often the same names making scandalous headlines with their own personal evils? In our battle against external evils it is all too easy to leave our internal evils unexamined and unopposed. Without a biblical awareness of the anti-Trinity, we become the very evils we are fighting.

WHICH ENEMY DO YOU IGNORE?

To echo my original thesis: one reason we often fail to reflect the Trinity well is that we often do not have a robust enough doctrine of the anti-Trinity. We reduce evil to the Devil, the Flesh, OR the World, when all three are daily at war against our joy in God and the joy of the nations. We must engage all three or we can expect no more victory than the Allies had they only fought one or two of Word War II’s Axis powers. Which malicious member(s) of the anti-Trinity do you most often ignore? On which battlefront does your soul stand unguarded? Which enemy are you not assaulting with prayer, truth, faith, and love? Do not be intimidated, overwhelmed, or discouraged. The anti-Trinity we face together is no match for a Triune God of love—the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit who alone can secure our victory against the Devil, the Flesh, and the World.

antitrinity_full

  • Justin Alfred

    Thaddeus:

    This was an outstanding, Christ & biblically centered, theologically sound, and historically sound, mind of Christ, thinking article! Please write more as the Body of Christ needs to, and must move from the “entertain me” mentality to one of deep prayer, robust research investigation, and thinking with the mind of Christ in all areas of our lives – from the biblical, historical, political, educational, economic, and military leves to the family and personal, spiritual applications.

    God bless you,

    Justin T. Alfred

    • Jerry S.

      Thaddeus,

      Proving someone else’s negative does not automatically make yours a positive.

      What you write sounds to me like the standard Systematic Theology that has been taught in seminary for centuries from faulty translations of scripture penned in the original language, Hebrew, to another target language. Presented with three dollar words no fisherman would understand, in a refracted analogy that may very well be new and imaginative interpretation of scripture that can be added to the writings of all the names you drop, but still the same old, same old that leads to and props up a very dangerous false teaching called Replacement Theology.

      Setting up “straw men”, as evil as they may be, just to burn them down is a practice I expect the Liberal Democrats and RINO’s in DC to do. See, I can do it too.

      J.

      • Jerry S.

        Oh ya, nice photo though!
        J.

  • a sheep

    Thaddeus, at what point in history did YHWH give up His Title as ” The Holy One “, to embrace ” a title ” that is literally not in The Holy Scriptures, a new title as “the holy three”?

    All of YHWH’s Titles are immutable!!

    YHWH has always called Himself The Holy One.

    Even as The Father The Son and The Holy Spirit…

    He is still calling Himself The Holy One!

    Just stop adding this one word to The Holy Scriptures…

    its just not there…
    Can you describe God without using that one word(trinity)?

    All the Biblical authors did!

    • Barbara LeFevre

      a Sheep~

      Can you justify your understanding of the word “one” in reference to God in light of the fact that the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit are all either named or revealed as God and LORD?

      Barbara

  • barry

    hey sheep, as I read this blog from Thaddeus I found that it did not tear apart the ONE GOd but showed how the One God truly can be ONE God while being equal with HOLY SPIRIT and SON [JESUS].There is no misunderstanding in the Heavens over this, starts in Genesis right through to revelations.GOD is truly mysterious.the three in One!

  • http://www.capitaldynamicsre.com Kenneth

    Thaddeus:

    In my study of multiple verses within scripture, I am persuaded of the existence of three beings, yes, but three Beings who are NOT one being, as the Trinity defines: “there is only one God in three persons and that each person is God, whole and entire. The three persons are distinct yet coexist in unity, and are co-equal, co-eternal and consubtantial.” Wikipedia. Or, as defined by your view, that being: “‘A biblical view exalts the one God who exists as FATHER, SON, AND HOLY SPIRIT—all equally divine Persons, each worthy of worship, love, and awe.'” As defined by Robert Bowman, Jr. “‘God exists as three persons as long as these three persons are not separate beings.” And as we hear from Don Stewart, “they are all Equally God.”

    Yahushua/Jesus say’s in John 14:28, “…my Father is greater than I.” This is the anti-thesis of “co-equality.”

    In Revelations 3:12, Yahushua refers to “My God,” consistently 4 times. If Yahushua/Jesus was God, He would not refer to God in the grammatical possessive sense.

    Yahushua/Jesus, in John 14:20 states, “At that day, ye shall know that I am in my Father and ye in me and I in you.” Yahushua could not be “in” the Father if He was the Father. Nor could Yahushua/Jesus being in the Father make Him The Father no more than Yahushua being in us, make Yahushua us. We are all independent beings, even YHWH and Yahushua, though both Diety, are independent beings.

    Or in John 5:20, if Yahushua/Jesus was “wholly God,” He wouldn’t have need of the Father showing Him greater works-He would already know the greater works. In John 5:30, how can one who is dependent upon another be that other? He can’t.

    Just as in John 5:30, where we see Yahushua as having his own desire, which equates to Him having His own Will, we see an independent Will also with Yahushua in Gethsemane, with Yahushua/Jesus wanting to allign His Will with the Will of The Father, seeking to subjugate His own great Will to that of His Father’s. Can one who seeks to subjugate His will to another be the other. No, of course not. Independent Wills denote independent being’s.

    Yahushua/Jesus never referred to Himself as God. He acknowledged Himself as The Christ, The Son, and even commended Peter for doing so also, affirming Peter’s acknowledgment as being under the Guidance of The Holy Spirit.

    If is from my anti-trinitarian perspective as opposed to a trinitarian perspective that I can experience MORE of an appreciation of our Father, and His Son and The Holy Spirit. Just as the Son earnestly and devoutly seeks to discern and follow His Father’s Will, acknowledging that His Father is greater than He, this is a perfect model for me, as my Father’s son, to do likewise.

    It is not appropriate to associate the Anti-Trinitarian view with, “The Devil,” “The Sin Nature” and “The World.” This is akin to the rhetorical model of those in the pro-homosexual rights movement of calling those who disagree with their view as speaking with “hate-language,” or as being “homophobic,” or with those who disagree with certain Islamist views and behaviours as being “Islamaphobic.” A better choice of terms could have been selected.

    Kenneth

    • Elijah

      Kenneth: You have stated your point of view very well. I would (assuming you agree that Jesus is the Messiah) ask then from your point of view how you would explain Isaiah 9:6 “For unto us a Child is born, Unto us a Son is given; And the government will be upon His shoulder. And His name will be called Wonderful, Counselor, Mighty God, Everlasting Father, Prince of Peace.” Also how do you explain the book of Revelations which is clear (to me at least) that Jesus is speaking and makes the statement, “I am the Alpha and the Omega, the Beginning and the End,”* says the Lord, “who is and who was and who is to come, the Almighty.” The word used here for “Lord” is transliterated from the Greek as kyrios which is defined as:1) he to whom a person or thing belongs, about which he has power of deciding; master, lord

      a) the possessor and disposer of a thing

      1) the owner; one who has control of the person, the master

      2) in the state: the sovereign, prince, chief, the Roman emperor

      b) is a title of honour expressive of respect and reverence, with which servants greet their master

      c) this title is given to: God, the Messiah.- Also, if Jesus is not God, then why would God the Father allow Him to be worshiped? For example, “And every creature which is in heaven, and on the earth, and under the earth, and such as are in the sea, and all that are in them, heard I saying, Blessing, and honour, and glory, and power, [be] unto him that sitteth upon the throne, and unto the Lamb for ever and ever. And the four beasts said, Amen. And the four [and] twenty elders fell down and worshipped him that liveth for ever and ever.-Rev.5:13-14″ and also in Matthew 28:9, Mark 5:6. and what do you make of John 17:5 where Jesus states that He had glory with the Father before the world was? Clearly Isaiah 48:11 states that God, “will not give my glory unto another.” There is so much more that I can lay out, but I respectfully want to know your point of view on these few scriptures in light of the ones you used to defend your point of view. I do this not for the sake of argument, but for personal edification and growth. Thanks for your time and God bless!

      • http://www.capitaldynamicsre.com Kenneth

        Elijah:

        Your approach is refreshing–non-argumentational and seeking “personal edification and growth.”
        We all need to just share different perspectives and insights.

        Regarding your question, “‘..if Jesus is not God, then why would God the Father allow Him to be worshiped.” This is a weighty question, especially in light of the 1st commandment: “Thou shalt have no other god’s before me.”

        I am inclined to answer this by referring to scripture translations that more accurately reflect the original ancient texts than does the King James edition. I will quote from the “Aramaic English New Testament”/AENT, which relies upon the Khabouris Codex, one of 360 manuscripts that make up the eastern Peshitta family and from which the most ancient Aramaic texts were derived. Yahushua/Jesus spoke Hebrew and Aramaic. “The Khabouris manuscript is the oldest known original Aramaic text available; it is not a translation, but the very words themselves that Yahushua/Jesus spoke.” AENT, pg. iv.

        Referring to Jn. 17:11, we read, “…..Kadosh (Holy) Father, keep them by your Name, that which you have given to me, that they may be one as We are.” AENT. Referring to the “Halleluyah Scriptures,” we read, “…..Qodesh Father, guard them in Your name which You have given me, so that they might be one, as We are.” Referring to the Orthodox Jewish Bible, we read, “Be shomer (guard, watch, keep) over them in Shmecha (Your Name), which You have given me, that they may be Echad (in unity) as we are Echad.”

        We see, then, in three different translations, that The Father gave His Name to The Son, to Yahushua/Jesus. When we say, “in the Name of,” we are saying, in the Power and Essence and Likeness of. What I gather from this scripture is that because The Name of The Father is in the Son, to worship the Son is to worship The Father. That is perfectly acceptable and yet it does not make Yahushua/Jesus God The Father, as we are given to see when Yahushua, referring not to Himself but rather distinguishing between Himself and His Father, deferring to His Father, a Higher Being, said in Jn. 12:44, “He that believes on me, believes not on me, but on Him that sent me.” When Yahushua/Jesus say’s, “If you have seen Me, you have seen the Father,” He can justifiably say this because the Fullness of the Father is on Him {Col. 1:19} and expressing through Him, this Perfectly Pure Vessel that is Yahushua, “Who is the image of the invisible God,” {Col. 1:15}; the One “In whom we have redemption through His blood…” {Col. 1:14} and The One by whom all things were created, {Col. 1:16}.

        When Yahushua Jesus say’s in Jn. 10:30, “I and My Father are One,” the Hebrew text uses the word “echad,” which in this sense, means, unity. It does not mean, in this sense, the cardinal number one. Yahushua is not saying that He is the One God, He is saying that He is One in unity with The Father. Understanding this Hebrew root word “echad” gives us this understanding.

        I would like to ask a question of you: 1). If Yahushua/Jesus is God, why does He refer to “‘My God,'” as seen in Rev. 3:12?

        May YHWH Bless you and keep you. May YHWH make His Face to shine upon you. May YHWH shine the Light of His Countenance upon you and give you His Peace. In the Name of Yahushua ha Mashiach, the Prince of Peace, Amein.

        Kenneth

    • Elijah

      To further detail my first question in regard to Isaiah 9:6, how do you explain that the scripture makes reference to the Messiah as a Child who is born, a Son that is given, and then finish by declaring Him “Everlasting Father” and Prince of Peace in the same breath?

    • Barbara LeFevre

      Kenneth~

      These are the same, worn-out and fallacious reasons that you put forth against the Trinity in my dialogue with you months ago. You think you can proof text your way through Scripture and arrive at God’s eternal truth, but you cannot. That you are unable to approach Scripture logically can be seen from the comment you gave on Hebrews 1:8 (Ps. 45:6). You wrote, “With God in Christ, Christ would be referred to as God, …That doesn’t make Him God.” You actually wrote that Christ being referred to as God doesn’t make Him God. How can you justify, at all, your reasoning? How can you ignore what Scripture is saying? This isn’t a matter of interpretation. It’s a matter of reading words on a page.

      I have prayed for you and will continue to do so, hoping that one day you will have your eyes opened to the truth of the Word of God, a truth that can be defended without fallacy.

      Barbara

      • Barbara LeFevre

        Kenneth~

        I don’t mean to sound harsh. I just wish you would honestly address the problems with your logic because they are considerable. For example, it is your contention, with regard to Hebrews 1:8 (Ps. 45:6) that the only reason that Jesus is called God is not because He is God but because “God [is] in [Him],” so let me ask you something. In I John 4:16b, we read, “God is love; and he that dwelleth in love dwelleth in God, and God in him.” Now, if you’re going to hold that Jesus is only God because God is in Him, then does that mean that, because God is in you, as this verse says, that you are God? Galatians 2:20 says that Christ lives in you. Does this make you Christ? John 14:17 says that the Holy Spirit is in you. Does that mean you are the Holy Spirit? The reason why Jesus was called God, then, has nothing to do with God being in Him and everything to do with the fact that He is God.

        Barbara

      • http://www.capitaldynamicsre.com Kenneth

        Barbara, God is Love. Be still, and know Him.

        Kenneth

  • http://www.aol.com andybob98

    Brothers & Sisters,

    Bible is pretty clear on a lot of things. One of these is that God, or Yahweh (YHWH) is one and eternal… i.e. he always existed and will always exist… So when Jesus, the son of God died on the Cross at Calvary did a man die or a god?

    When one sticks to the traditions of men and spouts the trinitarian philosophy of God the Son (a non Biblical term) than can not answer the question on who died on the Cross.

    But when one take the scriptures as they are written and sees that Jesus was just a man with the Father, YHWH, dwelling within him than one can easily see that it was the man Christ Jesus that died of a broken heart when the Father, the one true eternal God, left him. Think about it….?

    Here’s another one… When Jesus Christ was tempted in the wilderness was God tempted or was the man Jesus Christ tempted. If one believe in the trinity (non Biblical term) than one has to admit that God was tempted. But when one reads in the Book of James that God does not tempt nor can He be tempted one has to answer that it was the Man Christ Jesus that was tempted. This one is pretty clear too!

    Now what shall we say brothers and sisters are we going to believe in a tradition that contridicts the scriptures or are we going to believe in the scriptures as they are written?

    There is one mediator between God and Man and that person is the MAN Jesus Christ… so it says in 1 Tim 2:5….

    The man Jesus Christ could do nothing of himself but it was the Father in him doing the miracles… so it says in John 14:10. Are we going to believe the Word here or the traditions of men…

    I want you to know that it takes one of strong character to let go of false doctrine when the proof is plainly laid out before us.

    Jesus the man was tempted, he was anointed by our God and Father, Yahweh, to spread the Good News that we can have salvation in him. This man died for our sins and our God, who allowed this to happen, resurected his body from the dead to show us that He, the Almighty God, can do anything and He does these things for us because He loves us. Who else would give up their only begotten son? I couldn’t!

    God Bless you my Brothers and Sisters. Keep seeking the truth!

    Agape,
    Brother Andybob

    ….

    • http://blb.org Frank Rabinovitch

      Dear Brother Andybob.

      Just getting ready for bed, so this will just be a quick peak at some scriptures that will help you see the Messiah Jesus as part of the Godhead.

      Col 2:9 KJV – For in him dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead bodily.

      The previous verse makes it clear that Paul is referring Jesus, the Christ (Messiah, Annointed One).

      You claim Jesus died for our sins (true), and that we have salvation in Jesus. Jesus is Savior! Praise the Almighty Father that we can agree in this!

      Please turn to Isaiah 43, where the Lord says:

      Isa 43:11 NKJV – I, [even] I, [am] the LORD, And besides Me [there is] no savior.

      Of course, we both know that the word translated LORD in the King James (and many other translations) is the Hebrew word YHWH.

      Here, the word of the LORD declares His name to be YHWH, and claims He is your savior.

      You may bend your knee to Savior Jesus as God, without any fear that you are impugning the dignity of the Father. Jesus, the very Word of God (Rev 19:13), is Savior.

      Turning to the next chapter of Isaiah,

      Isa 44:6 NKJV – “Thus says the LORD, the King of Israel, And his Redeemer, the LORD of hosts: ‘I [am] the First and I [am] the Last; Besides Me [there is] no God.

      Here, Jesus Messiah, our Kinsman Redeemer (Ga-al in the Hebrew of this verse), is referred to by His name LORD of Hosts (YHWH tsaba). Jesus is YHWH, our Kinsman Redeemer. Praise Him!

      In this same verse above, we note that YHWH is the First and the Last – the only God. There is only one God, in three persons. Two of the persons are described in this verse, and both have the name YHWH in the Hebrew. This is clearly teaching the doctrine of the Trinity.

      Again in Rev 1:8, the Lord states that He is the Alpha and Omega, the Beginning and the End, the Almighty.

      These are the words of Jesus, Almighty YHWH, the same title as in Isaiah 44:6 above.

      Rev 22:13 again states this, and it is made clear in verse 16 that the speaker is Jesus.

      I hope this is a helpful start to you. I pray that you have much joy in worshipping our beloved Messiah Jesus and all the Godhead!

      God bless you, Frank blb.org

    • Elijah

      If you only believe that Jesus was just a man then please tell me how you explain the first chapter of John! You quote John 14:10 but who was John referring to when he spoke that,”the Word was with God, and the Word was God,” and then goes on the note that the Word (who was God) became flesh?

    • Elijah

      Brother Andybob, I will also ask you what I have asked Kenneth above. If Jesus is just a Man whom God dwelt in then I would (assuming you agree that Jesus is the Messiah) ask then from your point of view how you would explain Isaiah 9:6 “For unto us a Child is born, Unto us a Son is given; And the government will be upon His shoulder. And His name will be called Wonderful, Counselor, Mighty God, Everlasting Father, Prince of Peace.” how do you explain that the scripture makes reference to the Messiah as a Child who is born, a Son that is given, and then finish by declaring Him “Everlasting Father” and Prince of Peace in the same breath? Also how do you explain the book of Revelations which is clear (to me at least) that Jesus is speaking and makes the statement, “I am the Alpha and the Omega, the Beginning and the End,”* says the Lord, “who is and who was and who is to come, the Almighty.” The word used here for “Lord” is transliterated from the Greek as kyrios which is defined as:1) he to whom a person or thing belongs, about which he has power of deciding; master, lord

      a) the possessor and disposer of a thing

      1) the owner; one who has control of the person, the master

      2) in the state: the sovereign, prince, chief, the Roman emperor

      b) is a title of honour expressive of respect and reverence, with which servants greet their master

      c) this title is given to: God, the Messiah.- Also, if Jesus is not God, then why would God the Father allow Him to be worshiped? For example, “And every creature which is in heaven, and on the earth, and under the earth, and such as are in the sea, and all that are in them, heard I saying, Blessing, and honour, and glory, and power, [be] unto him that sitteth upon the throne, and unto the Lamb for ever and ever. And the four beasts said, Amen. And the four [and] twenty elders fell down and worshipped him that liveth for ever and ever.-Rev.5:13-14″ and also in Matthew 28:9, Mark 5:6. and what do you make of John 17:5 where Jesus states that He had glory with the Father before the world was? Clearly Isaiah 48:11 states that God, “will not give my glory unto another.” There is so much more that I can lay out, but I respectfully want to know your point of view on these few scriptures in light of the ones you used to defend your point of view. I do this not for the sake of argument, but for personal edification and growth. Thanks for your time and God bless!

    • Cindy

      I woud like to thank you for telling th truth adout our Holy Father. It clearly state everything you said. I am very glad to see people who love and know what the Bible clearly tells you in the scriptures. Every thing that written the Bible is the living word of :God. The world wants you to think you can do what you want and not worry adout the conquences I am telling you my friend. The ultimight end will be seperation from God forever in the pit of fire. God dose not want anyone to be lost,but he wants you to let him come in to your life and show you what real love is. He sent the Holy Sprit to guide you and God will do the rest so you can spend eternity with him. I truely belive that God is THE FATHER SON AND THE HOLY SPIRIT. God makes it very clear. Judt read your bible with a opwn mind and let theHoly Spirit reveal the truth to you. Dont let satin cloud your mind because he is the ultiment liar. God bless. I love you all.

    • Barbara LeFevre

      Andybob~

      You wrote, “I want you to know that it takes one of strong character to let go of false doctrine when the proof is plainly laid out before us.” I agree, and if you ever want to honestly address the problems with your reasoning and conclusions as well as to honestly address the reasoning that I put forth to contradict your position, I will be happy to repost our past dialogues.

      Barbara

  • Martin

    I agree with you Brother Andybob – the Bible says God is one, not 3 in 1 but Christ wasn’t tempted in the wilderness. Satan tried and failed to tempt Him. God had given Him the ability to resist. Matt 28:18

    • Barbara LeFevre

      Martin~

      How can you say that “Christ wasn’t tempted in the wilderness”? Matthew 4:1-11 categorically says that He was, beginning with this verse: “Then was Jesus led up of the Spirit into the wilderness to be tempted of the devil,” followed by three specific instances in which He was.

      Also, His being tempted has nothing to do with His authority. In Mark 16:17, we are given authority to “cast out devils,” but this doesn’t mean that we aren’t tempted by Satan.

      Finally, verses such Matthew 28:18 and John 5:19 are erroneously used to prove that Jesus isn’t God because people fail to truly understand one of Jesus’ purposes for coming to Earth was to perfectly model submission to the Father in every area and every circumstance. In other words, it wasn’t that He couldn’t do something; it was that He crucified His flesh in the same way we are commanded to do. Also, He could hardly stand as rightful judge over people’s failure to do something if He, Himself, hadn’t done it.

      I don’t know if you are aware of it, but there is an article on the Trinity by Robert M. Bowman, Jr. in the BLB commentaries.

      Have a blessed day~
      Barbara

  • http://www.azusastreetriders.com Diane Beall

    Brothers and Sisters in the Lord,

    Jesus was not fifty percent man and fifty percent God. He was all human and all divine. When Jesus was born, the angels worshipped Him and declared Him Yahweh Savior, divine (Luke 2:11; Hebrews 1:6). The very life of Jesus was the life of God. The Holy Spirit, overshadowed Mary and in dwelt the baby, Jesus. The Shema is the foundation of our understanding of God. Yahweh is God – Yahweh alone. The New Testament celebrates this certainly; but it also celebrates the identity and work of Christ. For there is one God and one mediator between God and men, the Man Christ Jesus” (1Timothy 2:5). To say that Jesus is divine, does not merely mean that He participates in divinity in some way. Using David S. Norris’s analogy of a match, God has both locale and omnipresence. The match is God in His locale. The light from the match is His omnipresence. In the incarnation, “God was in Christ reconciling the world to Himself…” 11 Corinthians 5:19). That is to say, the “location” of God moved from heaven to earth, for when God became incarnate, it was truly God Himself. As Paul proclaims of Jesus, “For in Him dwells all the fullness of the Godhead bodily” (Colossians 2:9). Isaiah 9:6 proclaims, For unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given: and the government shall be upon his shoulder: and his name shall be called Wonderful, Counsellor, The mighty God, The everlasting Father, The Prince of Peace. To sum it up, “In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God” (John 1:1). “And the Word became flesh and dwelt among us, and we beheld His glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father, full of grace and truth” (1:14), this means that it was God Himself who fulfilled His plan and became incarnate. “Who is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of every creature, For by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether [they be] thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him: and he is before all things, and by him all things consist.” (Col 1:15-17)

    Love in Christ,
    Diane

    • Barbara LeFevre

      Diane~

      Thank you so much. Your thoughts were very beautifully and accurately put.

      God bless you~
      Barbara

    • http://www.capitaldynamicsre.com Kenneth

      Diane:

      If Jesus is God, why did He, when in the garden at Gethsemane, ask The Father if the cup could pass from Him? If the cup wasn’t passed then, this would have changed the plan of why The Son was sent, for the plan of redemption was established before the world was formed and God changes not. {Malachi 3:6}.

      Kenneth

      • Barbara LeFevre

        Kenneth~

        I know you asked Diane this question, so I hope you don’t mind if interrupt, but could you clarify the points you are trying to make? How does Jesus asking the Father “if the cup could pass from Him” have anything to do with whether He is God or not? Also, why would “this…have changed the plan…of redemption”? Thank you.

        Barbara

  • Tess

    Andybob98 Jesus was not “just a man with the Father dwelling in Him” Jesus was and IS God. The bible does not contradict itself. In Hebrews 1:6 But when He again brings the firstborn into the world, He says: “Let all the angels of God worship Him.” Luke 4:8 And Jesus answered and said to him, “Get behind Me Satan For it is written; You shall worship the Lord your God, and Him ONLY you shall serve. How can the Father command the universe to worship the Son then the Son quotes the Father saying the only one to be worshiped in Jehovah God. John 20:27-29 Then He said to Thomas, “Reach your finger here, and look at My hands; and reach your hand here, and put it into My side. Do not be unbelieving, but believing.”

    28 And Thomas answered and said to Him, –>“My Lord and my God!”

    29 Jesus said to him, “Thomas, because you have seen Me, you have believed. Blessed are those who have not seen and yet have believed.”

    Jesus would not have allowed Thomas to worship Him and call Him Jehovah God (which is the exact Greek text in verse 28). To have allowed that would have been blasphemy and it is equally blaspheme to claim that Jesus is NOT God. There are many instances in the bible where Jesus allows Himself to be worshiped as God so arguments to attempt to establish Jesus as only a man are either incorrect or make the bible and Jesus a liar.

    It is a ploy of Satan to portray Jesus as simply a man. He is both Man and God. He is not Michael. He is not created by God. The bible clearly states He was with God in the beginning. Let’s not skip around and play loosely with the bible and the diety of Jesus here. If you believe the bible and take the whole counsel of God it’s very clear on this point.

  • Tess

    John 5:15-23 The man departed and told the Jews that it was Jesus who had made him well.

    Honor the Father and the Son

    16 For this reason the Jews persecuted Jesus, and sought to kill Him,[c] because He had done these things on the Sabbath. 17 But Jesus answered them, “My Father has been working until now, and I have been working.”

    18 Therefore the Jews sought all the more to kill Him, because He not only broke (in greek the word is loosed) the Sabbath, but also said that God was His Father, –>making Himself equal EQUALITY WITH GOD<—. 19 Then Jesus answered and said to them, “Most assuredly, I say to you, the Son can do nothing of Himself, but what He sees the Father do; for whatever He does, the Son also does in like manner. 20 For the Father loves the Son, and shows Him all things that He Himself does; and He will show Him greater works than these, that you may marvel. 21 For as the Father raises the dead and gives life to them, even so the Son gives life to whom He will. 22 For the Father judges no one, but has committed all judgment to the Son, 23 that all should honor the Son just as they honor the Father. He who does not honor the Son does not honor the Father who sent Him.

    As man Jesus humbled Himself to the death of the cross but He never ceased to be God.

    Phillipians 2: 5-11 Let this mind be in you which was also in Christ Jesus, 6 who, being (exact Greek states "who remaining" in the form of God), did not consider it robbery to be equal with God, (You don't have to covet what is yours already) 7 but MADE HIMSELF of no reputation, TAKING THE FORM of a bondservant, and coming in the likeness of men. 8 And being found IN APPEARANCE as a man, He humbled Himself and became obedient to the point of death, even the death of the cross. 9 Therefore God also has highly exalted Him and given Him the name which is above every name, 10 that at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, of those in heaven, and of those on earth, and of those under the earth, 11 and that every tongue should confess that JESUS IS LORD, to the glory of God the Father.

    GOD CANNOT BE BEGOTTEN. AS GOD HE ALWAYS WAS AND IS GOD. ONLY MAN IS BEGOTTEN AND THIS VERSE SHOWS THAT JEHOVAH GOD/JESUS TOOK THE FORM OF MAN. AS MAN HE WAS BEGOTTEN BUT AS GOD HE ALWAYS WAS IS AND SHALL BE.

  • Tess

    Isaiah 45:22-24
    “Look to Me, and be saved,
    All you ends of the earth!
    For I am God, and there is no other.
    23 I have sworn by Myself;
    The word has gone out of My mouth in righteousness,
    And shall not return,
    That to Me every knee shall bow,
    Every tongue shall take an oath.
    24 He shall say,
    ‘Surely in the Lord I have righteousness and strength.
    To Him men shall come,
    And all shall be ashamed
    Who are incensed against Him.

    Colossians 2:8-10
    8. Beware lest anyone cheat you through philosophy and empty deceit, according to the tradition of men, according to the basic principles of the world, and not according to Christ. 9 For in HIM dwells all the fullness of the GODHEAD bodily; 10 and you are complete in Him, who is the head of all principality and power.

  • Cindy

    I have to say I have read some aweaome views on this subject. I would like each one of you for your conviction to our Lord and Savior. It has really helped me understand some things I was not totaly clear on. Thanks for all of the scriptures you used so I can do more studing on this subject.
    God bless all of you and may God send you many blessings your way.
    Love inChrist Cindy

  • Brian Mitchell

    What a vigorous discourse! Clearly a lot of great thought has been given to the positions discussed here. I personally have struggled with the Trinity, seeing three separate Entities described in scripture, yet defined as a single “Person” as well.
    When Abraham prepares to offer Issac as a sacrifice he tells Issac that God will provide Himself a sacrifice. The Old Testament saints could not have worshiped the Son, because the incarnate Son had not come yet, and Christ Himself told the Apostles that unless He left, the Helper would not come.
    Confusion is perfectly understandable, but everything became clear to me with this concept; in the Law, judgement could not be accomplished unless there are two witnesses. Truth could not be determined unless there was the testimony of two. The Father testifies as to the Son and the Holy Spirit, the Holy Spirit testifies as to the Son and the Father, the Son testifies as to the Father and the Holy Spirit. In every case the truth of our Divine creator, the Trinity, the Son, the Holy Spirit (in essence all things) has sufficient Witnesses and by this we can verify the truth of the scriptures and take absolute comfort in them. Without a Divine Trinity we would have only one witness, and even if that One witness is the Father Himself, the perfection of God would not permit so great an inconsistency. Our Witnesses are from the highest level, eternal- from beginning to end, omnipotent, omnipresent, it can be no other way.
    I offer this insight humbly and welcome correction. Please forgive any clumsy wording I may have used in trying to establish this concept as foundational for understanding the Trinity as it would relate to the anti-trinity, etc. Thanks one and all for the obvious devotion to a love for Christ and our Creator!

  • http://www.catassembly.org Carl

    You do attempt to tear apart the ONE GOD whenever you try to add two just like HIM. Many make the mistake of trying to explain the GODHEAD and hook it into the triune as the nature of GOD existing in THREE persons. This contradicts scripture. Isa 44:8 “Is there a God beside me? Yea, there is no God; I know not any.” or Isa 46:9 “Remember the former things of old: for I am GOD, and there is none else; I am GOD and there is none like me,”. You cannot make the LORD GOD equal with anything. Judaism is strictly monotheistic, ONE GODism which have not and never will change. From Genesis thru Revelations the Holy Scriptures only teaches the God of Israel is one self-existing GOD that was never made by the seed of the woman, nor has he made himself a little lower than HIS own creation (Heb 2:9).

    • Brian Mitchell

      Genesis 1:26 says- Then God said, “Let Us make man in Our image, according to Our likeness; let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, over the birds of the air, and over the cattle, over all the earth and over every creeping thing that creeps on the earth.”
      Other places in the Bible God says “I will…” in around 1000 to 2000 verses (based on a BLB search of the statement “I will”).
      Us, Our and Our are clearly more than one being.
      John 1:1 says- In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
      Clearly there is one God, there is one Son and there is one Holy Spirit. God is not diminished by a Trinity. I’ve heard it described as being similar to a sports team, there are 9 players on a single baseball team. Much to think about here and we may not know the absolute answer until we are in the presence of our Creator.

      • Helen

        Dear Brian,

        Is Genesis 1:26 the only place in the Bible where a plural terminology was used by God, and elsewhere only singular?

        Imagine this: “In the beginning was the second person of the Trinity, and the second person of the Trinity was with the first person of the Trinity and the second person of the Trinity was the first person of the Trinity”

        Isn’t that just awful! Let’s use biblical language.

        I was blessed by Dianne and Tess’s contributions.
        Thankyou.

      • http://www.capitaldynamicsre.com Kenneth

        Brian, I believe you’re right on track. Thank you.

        Kenneth

  • Tess

    1Jo 5:20 KJV – 20 And we know that the Son of God is come, and hath given us an understanding, that we may know him that is true, and we are in him that is true, [even] in his Son Jesus Christ. THIS IS THE TRUE GOD, AND ETERNAL LIFE.

    1Ti 3:16 KJV – 16 And without controversy great is the mystery of godliness: GOD WAS MAINFEST IN FLESH, justified in the Spirit, seen of angels, preached unto the Gentiles, believed on in the world, received up into glory.

    To say that Jesus is not God is to call God a liar and Jesus a blasphemer.

    If a man is a father, he can also be a son, and can also be an uncle. Those titles do not make him three seperate people.

    Water can be liquid, solid and vaper. It is still water.

    The attempt to portray Jesus as not fully God is an attack on God Himself.

    1 John 5:6-13
    The Certainty of God’s Witness

    6 This is He who came by water and blood—Jesus Christ; not only by water, but by water and blood. And it is the Spirit who bears witness, because the Spirit is truth. 7 For there are three that bear witness in heaven: the Father, the Word, and the Holy Spirit; and these three are one. 8 AND THERE ARE THREE THAT BEAR WITNESS ON EARTH: THE SPIRIT, THE WATER, AND THE BLOOD, AND THESE THREE AGREE AS ONE.

    9 If we receive the witness of men, the witness of God is greater; for this is the witness of God which He has testified of His Son. 10 He who believes in the Son of God has the witness in himself; he who does not believe God has made Him a liar, because he has not believed the testimony that God has given of His Son. 11 And this is the testimony: that God has given us eternal life, and this life is in His Son. 12 He who has the Son has life; he who does not have the Son of God does not have life. 13 These things I have written to you who believe in the name of the Son of God, that you may know that you have eternal life, and that you may continue to believe in the name of the Son of God.

    John 8:58
    58 Jesus said to them, “Most assuredly, I say to you, before Abraham was, I AM.” <—Is Jesus a liar?

    Philippians 2:8-11 And being found in fashion as a man, he humbled himself, and became obedient unto death, even the death of the cross. Wherefore God also hath highly exalted him, and given him a NAME WHICH IS ABOVE EVERY NAME: That at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, of [things] in heaven, and [things] in earth, and [things] under the earth; And [that] every tongue should confess that JESUS CHRIST [IS] LORD, to the glory of God the Father.

    1 John 2:12-23
    Their Spiritual State

    12 I write to you, little children,
    Because your sins are forgiven you for His name’s sake.
    13 I write to you, fathers,
    Because you have known Him who is from the beginning.
    I write to you, young men,
    Because you have overcome the wicked one.
    I write to you, little children,
    Because you have known the Father.
    14 I have written to you, fathers,
    Because you have known Him who is from the beginning.
    I have written to you, young men,
    Because you are strong, and the word of God abides in you,
    And you have overcome the wicked one.

    Do Not Love the World

    15 Do not love the world or the things in the world. If anyone loves the world, the love of the Father is not in him. 16 For all that is in the world—the lust of the flesh, the lust of the eyes, and the pride of life—is not of the Father but is of the world. 17 And the world is passing away, and the lust of it; but he who does the will of God abides forever.

    Deceptions of the Last Hour

    18 Little children, it is the last hour; and as you have heard that the Antichrist is coming, even now many antichrists have come, by which we know that it is the last hour. 19 They went out from us, but they were not of us; for if they had been of us, they would have continued with us; but they went out that they might be made manifest, that none of them were of us.

    20 But you have an anointing from the Holy One, and you know all things. 21 I have not written to you because you do not know the truth, but because you know it, and that no lie is of the truth.

    22 Who is a liar but he who denies that Jesus is the Christ? He is antichrist who denies the Father and the Son. 23 Whoever denies the Son does not have the Father either; he who acknowledges the Son has the Father also.

  • Tess

    Isaiah 48:16(NKJV)
    “Come near to Me, hear this:
    I have not spoken in secret from the beginning;
    From the time that it was, I was there.
    And now the Lord God and His Spirit
    Have sent Me.”

    Act 2:36 Therefore let all the house of Israel know assuredly, that God hath made that same Jesus, whom ye have crucified, BOTH LORD AND CHRIST.

    1Ti 3:16 And without controversy great is the mystery of godliness: GOD WAS MANIFEST IN THE FLESH, justified in the Spirit, seen of angels, preached unto the Gentiles, believed on in the world, received up into glory.

    It just doesn’t get any clearer than that. Be careful brothers and sisters. The attempt to take the diety from Christ is the spirit of antichrist.

    There is a very simple fact of the bible. It does not lie. When you doubt what it says you begin to construct your own explination and you may as well write your own book.

    These are the exact issues Paul and John were dealing with from Gnostic’s who denied the deity of Jesus. They closely align themselves with Christ but are not in any way Christian.

    If the bible says Jesus is God (and it does) we have every right and obligation to insist on it and we are told to get away from them. The Children of God

    1 John 2: 28-29
    28 And now, little children, abide in Him, that when He appears, we may have confidence and not be ashamed before Him at His coming. 29 If you know that He is righteous, you know that everyone who practices righteousness is born of Him.

  • Tess

    Te Trinity Matters
    Here is a very good link to listen to about the Trinity.
    http://www.sbts.edu/media/audio/spring2006/20060209ware.mp3

  • E.T.

    Good Thinking Thaddeus,

    By way of illustration your Anti-trinity gives us a great deal to think about, and correct in our life and service to the Almighty God who represents himself in three persons. There is of course the reality of another unholy trinity, yet to be revealed. The devil, the false prophet, and the beast. If there is a bible illustrated anti-trinity, these three are it.

    Don’t let the nay sayers get to you. Every man has an opinion and in the light of eternity they will all pale and fade.

    E.T.

    • Jerry S.

      When theologies, traditions, dogma’s, doctrines, religions, opinions, etc. whiten and fade as we travel towards and enter eternity and the sole Truth of Yeshua on David’s throne is all that remains, then we will know TRUTH beyond the list I write above.

      The warnings about False Teachings and Teachers comprise a major portion of the NT and we should be wary and call them out at all expense, hurt feelings not withstanding, Luk 9:38-42 HNV. I enjoy the “hard sayings of Jesus” that do not fit what I call the “Stepford Wives” version of what some call faith. Unity and ecumenicalism, so no one becomes “offended” is not a “conservative principle”. So remember, Rom 8:38-39 HNV, Eph 3:10-13 HNV, Eph 6:12 HNV, Col 1:16-17 HNV, Col 2:8-19 HNV, (I particularly like Col 2:18 HNV).

      J.

  • Vicki

    Titus 2:13… “Looking for that blessed hope, and the glorious appearing of the great God and our Saviour Jesus Christ.” It is quite clear and evident what this scripture is saying. That our Saviour Jesus Christ is the great God. It is similar to the great scripture Tess posted which is I John 5:20 “And we know that the Son of God has come and has given us an understanding, that we may know Him who is true; and we are in Him who is true, in His Son Jesus Christ. This is the true God and eternal life.” Jesus is the true and living God, and the Father calls the Son “God” in Psalm 45:6-7.

  • http://www.aol.com Andybob98

    Brothers and Sisters,

    No one I can see has answered the questions I posed…

    Did God, the Almighty One get tempted or did a man get tempted?

    Did God, The Almighty One die on the cross or did a man?

    The answer is a man. The man Jesus Christ, born of a woman, the man who was baptized and led by the Spirit of God into the wilderness. The man who died on the cross and said, “why have you forsaken me God?” The man Jesus who is the mediator to between God and Mankind.

    It was God in Jesus Christ reconciling the world to Himself and doing the outstanding miracles of raising the dead, healing the sick and casting out demons. An we, the church, the eclassia, are just like the pattern Son Jesus Christ and we too have been given authority to raise the dead, heal the sick and cast demons out of one another. Is it us that does this? NO! It is the Almighty God, whose name is YAHWEH who does it.

    Our God loved us sooooo very much that He gave us His Son, Jesus Christ as a sacrifice for our sins.

    This is not one part of God giving up another part of God. This is thee Almight Sovereign God giving up a “perfect man” who never sinned for us as John 3:16 clearly states.

    God cannot die because he is immortal. Men/women’s bodies do die and their souls and spirits live on in heavan or hell.

    God cannot be tempted but men/women are tempted and if they give into the temptation then they have sinned.

    It comes down to this…. Some believe that Jesus the man was God and some believe that Jesus was indwelt by God… Which do you believe?

    Much love to each of you as you search out the scriptures and walk in the love He has for you and we have for Him.

    Brother
    Andybob

    • Vicki

      Andybob, sinince God the Son was manifested in the flesh I believe Satan thought he could tempt the Lord. As for Christ dying, His flesh died, but His Spirit is eternal and cannot die.

      • Vicki

        Again, 1 John 5:20 states that Jesus is “the true God and eternal life.” Then in the next verse, 1 John 5:21, it says “Little children, keep yourself from idols. Amen.” John is simply stating to beware of any teachings that oppose these realities. An idol is not so much a material thing as a false teaching. Jesus Christ is God. Any other thought is idolatry.

      • Vicki

        John 2:19 Jesus answered and said unto them, Destroy this temple, and in three days I will raise it up.

        • http://www.aol.com andybob

          Vicki,

          This one is pretty easy to understand. Just as the prophets of old had God, Yahweh, speak through them (See Isaia, Ezekiel, Amos, Obadia, etc) so the man Jesus Christ had God speak through him saying, “Destroy this temple (man) and I “God Almighty” wil raise him from the dead. We see God raised him from the dead and while Jesus body lay dead in the tomb he (Jesus the man’s soul and spirit was in Sheol preaching to those who had died previously. See 1 Peter 3:18-19 “For Christ also hath once suffered for sins, the just for the unjust, that he might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh, but quickened by the Spirit:
          By which also he went and preached unto the spirits in prison; ”

          Here we see the Man Christ Jesus bring us and the spirits in prison to God.

          I hope this helps!

          AGAPE,
          Andybob

      • http://www.aol.com andybob

        Vicki,

        Thanks for the reply… From what I read from you post you believe the flesh of Jesus was only a shell for God to live in but in actuality it was an actual man with a body, soul and spirit just like you and I have.

        Jesus the man, prayed (his soul and spirit) in the Garden of Eden to God.

        Consider these verses too that show Jesus, the man had a body, soul and spirit.

        – Jesus had a beginning or he was born (Mat 1:16, Mat 2:1)
        – Jesus prayed to God (Mat 26:39, Mat 14:23, John 17:1-5, Rev 3:12)
        – Jesus had a body (Luke 23:52, Mark 15:23)
        – Jesus had a soul (Mat 26:38)
        – Jesus had a spirit (Mark 2:8, Luke 23:46)
        – Jesus was hungry and ate food (Mat 4:2, Mark 11:13, Mark 14:22)
        – Jesus sang songs (Mat 26:30, Mark 14:26)
        – Jesus did not know everything (Mark 13:32) God though knows everything
        – Jesus was a man (1 Tim 2:5, Mat 8:20) remember God is not a man
        – Jesus died (Mark 15:37-39, Luke 23:46) remember God cannot die
        – Jesus wept (John 11:35)
        – Jesus was tempted (Mark 1:13, Luke 4:2, Heb 4:15) remember God cannot be tempted
        – Jesus worshiped God (Heb 5:7) this is a man worshipping God not a one person of the trinity worshipping the other person of the trinity.
        – Jesus had his Father’s name (Jesus’ name mean Yahweh the Savior or Yahweh is Savior) (John 17:11)
        – Jesus is the first born of many brethren (Rom 8:29)
        – God, who dwelt in, or lived in Jesus Christ, did the miracles (John 14:10)
        One should not form a doctrine based on one scripture alone but rather one should take multiple scriptures that are easily understood to form ones belief and teaching and then take a look at and study the more difficult scriptures and interpret them in light of the clear and easily understood verses.

        God Bless you my sister!

        Andybob

  • Tess

    Andybob,
    I’m not sure exactly what point you are trying to make but I, for one, am quite uncomfortable with the worlds attempts to portray Jesus as merely a man that God empowered.

    The Holy Spirit overshadowed Mary and Jesus was conceived by God. Luke 2: 35-36. He is BOTH man and God. Fully man and fully God. Also, to tempt is an action on the “tempters” part not on the part of the one being tempted. You’re logic “seems” to state that you hold the view that because Jesus was tempted shows he is less than God. That thinking is flawed. Jesus is and was something we can never be. He is fully a man AND He is fully God. Jesus is the Son of God. There are many who believe they will be equal to Jesus as son’s of God. This is very serious and very seriously WRONG. Nowhere in God’s word will you ever see man described as a –>Son of God<–notice the capital on Son. It always makes me highly suspicious when those types of attempts are made and I very firmly know that it does violence to God's word. To cut and paste temptation scriptures together in an attempt to build a "Jesus was tempted so therefore He's a man just like you and I" is absolutely not what the bible teaches. Since I care deeply about your soul I implore you to really consider why you are attempting to make that argument because it IS a very serious error so please think long and hard into why you want to diminish Jesus. I believe He will take that VERY seriously when we stand before Him in the future. Of course Jesus was fully man but He WAS AND IS ALSO fully GOD.

    You mean more to me than just simply letting that very important point go.

    • http://www.aol.com andybob

      BLB Reply to Tess
      Sister Tess,

      Thank you for your love for me, my soul. It blesses be that God has continue to change you more into His likeness by giving you a BIG heart for souls.

      I used to think that Jesus was fully man and fully God but as I studied the scriptures more I found that God dwelt in Jesus Christ as John 14:10 clearly states, “Do you not believe that I am in the Father and the Father is in me? The words that I say to you I do not speak on my own authority, but the Father who dwells in me does his works.”

      Jesus the Man, not our God and Father, was tempted as we see in Luke 4:2,
      “…for forty days, being tempted by the devil. And he ate nothing during those days. And when they were ended, he was hungry.” Our God cannot be tempted as it says in James 1:13 “Let no one say when he is tempted, “I am being tempted by God,” for God cannot be tempted with evil, and he himself tempts no one.” Secondly, God does not get hungry but men and women do.

      When the holy spirit of God overshadowed Mary what took place? I believe our God created a male seed inside her womb that united with her egg and Jesus the man was created. I believe what you wrote Jesus is God than Mary is the mother of God and that is not true.

      This man Jesus grew up and as he did “learned obedience by the things he suffered” Hebrews 5:8. God does not need to learn things because He knows everything. Our Bibles clearly teach us that God is all knowing. Psalm 147:5 “Great is our Lord and mighty in power; his understanding has no limit.” (Job 37:16, 1 John 3:19-20 “…God is greater than our heart, and He knows everything.”)

      When Jesus died on the cross he said to our God and Father, “Eli, Eli, lama sabachthani?” that is, “My God, My God, why have You forsaken Me” – This is a very clear picture of our God and Father leaving the man Jesus Christ on the cross when he became the sin offering for the whole world. This is NOT one God leaving another God.

      You state that we will never be like him and that we are not sons of God but we will be like him as it says in 1 John 3:2, “Beloved, now are we the sons of God, and it doth not yet appear what we shall be: but we know that, when he shall appear, we shall be like him; for we shall see him as he is.”
      Jesus is the pattern son and we are to become like him… See 1 Tim 1:16 “However, for this reason I obtained mercy, that in me first Jesus Christ might show all longsuffering, as a pattern to those who are going to believe on Him for everlasting life.”

      More scriptures that show Jesus is a man can be found here:
      – Jesus had a beginning or he was born (Mat 1:16, Mat 2:1)
      – Jesus prayed to God (Mat 26:39, Mat 14:23, John 17:1-5, Rev 3:12)
      – Jesus had a body (Luke 23:52, Mark 15:23)
      – Jesus had a soul (Mat 26:38)
      – Jesus had a spirit (Mark 2:8, Luke 23:46)
      – Jesus was hungry and ate food (Mat 4:2, Mark 11:13, Mark 14:22)
      – Jesus sang songs (Mat 26:30, Mark 14:26)
      – Jesus did not know everything (Mark 13:32) God though knows everything
      – Jesus was a man (1 Tim 2:5, Mat 8:20) remember God is not a man
      – Jesus died (Mark 15:37-39, Luke 23:46) remember God cannot die
      – Jesus wept (John 11:35)
      – Jesus was tempted (Mark 1:13, Luke 4:2, Heb 4:15) remember God cannot be tempted
      – Jesus worshiped God (Heb 5:7) this is a man worshipping God not a one person of the trinity worshipping the other person of the trinity.
      – Jesus had his Father’s name (Jesus’ name mean Yahweh the Savior or Yahweh is Savior) (John 17:11)
      – Jesus is the first born of many brethren (Rom 8:29)
      – God, who dwelt in, or lived in Jesus Christ, did the miracles (John 14:10)

      Sister Tess I believe in God and His son Jesus Christ. Jesus Christ is a man that had God in him (John 14:10) who did the miracles of raising the dead, healing the sick and casting out demons. You and I have been given this ministry as sons of God to do the same.

      Much love to you and your family!
      Keep believing, keep seeking, keep knocking and it shall be given you!
      Your Brother,
      Andybob