The Trinity: What Difference Does It Make?

The following is adapted from Robert Bowman, Jr.’s article The Biblical Basis of the Doctrine of the Trinityavailable at the Blue Letter Bible commentaries.
  1. SOVEREIGNTY. Because the three persons have each other, we can be assured that God created us only to share the love they have and not as a means to His own end: Acts 17:25; John 17:21-26.
  2. MYSTERY. The triune God is totally unlike anything in our world, and therefore greater than anything we can comprehend: Rom. 11:33-36; Isa. 40:18.
  3. SALVATION. God alone planned our salvation, came to save us, and dwells in us to complete our salvation: 1 Pet. 1:2; Eph. 1:3-18; etc.
  4. PRAYER. We pray to the Father through the Son, and also pray to the Son directly, in the Spirit: John 14:13-14; Eph. 2:18; etc.
  5. WORSHIP. We worship Father and Son in the Spirit: John 4:23-24; Phil. 3:3; Heb. 1:8; etc.
  6. LOVE. The love among the three persons is the basis and model for our love for one another: John 17:26.
  7. UNITY. The unity of the three persons is the basis and model for the unity of the church: John 17:21-23.
  8. HUMILITY. As the persons of the Trinity seek the glory of each other, so we should seek the interests of others above our own: Phil. 2:5-11; John 16:13-14.
  9. SONSHIP. We are “sons of God” as we are united with the Son of God by the work of the Holy Spirit and the adoption of the Father: John 1:12-23; Rom. 8:14-17.
  10. TRUTH. All those who wish to worship and love God must seek to know Him as He is in truth, for God, as Father, Son, and Holy Spirit, is truth: John 4:24; 14:6, 14:17; 15:26; 16:13.

For more information, visit the BLB.

  • http://blueletterbible.org Larry itisfinished Jefferson

    It makes no difference at all, if you are content with the status quo of religion and its many delusions. BUT, if you want to have a guinine, experiential RELATIONSHIP with the One True and Living GOD, its absolutely imperative!

    • http://blueletterbible.org Larry “itisfinished” Jefferson

      Upon further review, i.e. that is reading some of the other post here. I am reexamining this issue. Thanks! :)

      • http://blueletterbible.org Larry “itisfinished” Jefferson

        I just had this thought, How can there be a biblical basis for the trinity, when it is not even found in the Bible Text? Is this “implied” theology?

        • SteveB

          Hi Larry.
          The Tri-une nature of the True and Living God exists throughout the entirety of the bible. And it starts in Genesis 1:2.
          God created the cosmos, and God’s Spirit hovered above the surface of the deep.
          There are two distinct personalities at this point.
          Then, we go to Genesis 1:25-27, with regards to God’s creation of man.
          We see the phrase, that is unambiguous, and concise– Let US Make man after OUR Image, and according to OUR Likeness.

          it goes forward from there. In Genesis 6, with the judgment on man for the Flood– My Spirit will not always strive with man…..

          In looking at the article, the list is only from the NT. The concept, and scriptures for the Trinity do indeed start at the beginning.
          While I do indeed agree that it will take time to go through the whole book, it’ll be worth it. God does indeed want us as clear on this topic as we’re willing to become.
          Moreover, while it may seem that there is not a “Trinity” because the word is not mentioned, that does not mean that God is expressed in three distinct personalities, and is in all the meaning– One God.
          E.g., as Sharon has quoted below–
          Hear O’Israel, YHVH our God, YHVH is One, from Deuteronomy 6:4, is actually, in the hebrew-
          Shma Yisrael, YHVH Elohenu, YHVH Echad.
          There are two words used for the number one.
          Echad, and Yachid.
          There is an excellent article written that goes through and defines them both very well.
          http://www.bible.ca/trinity/trinity-oneness-unity-yachid-vs-echad.htm

          For the moment, the word- Echad, is like saying the man and woman are One.
          They are indeed two distinct people, with two distinct personalities, but they become, in God’s perspective– ONE FLESH.
          Please read the article. I think it’ll help.

          Grace and Peace in Christ, be with you, as you continue to follow Jesus.

          • http://blueletterbible.org Larry “itisfinished” Jefferson

            SteveB, Grace to you Sir,
            A couple of things regarding this post: (1) The Genesis 1:2 reference does not necessarily mean that God (creator) and the Spirit of God (brooding) are distinct from each other. The Spirit of God in this sense simply indicates the creative activity of the One creator God.
            (2) Genesis 1:25-27, the US and OUR is at best an assumption of the trinity, that has been the traditional thought on this passage when attempting to give “proof” for trinitarian doctrine.
            (3) Genesis 6, My Spirit will not always strive with man.. really does not speak to the issue of the trinity, because God is Spirit, how else would he deal with man? (see #1 regarding the Spirit of God).
            Perhaps the term “trinity” not being mentioned by God who inspired the scriptures, and gave us all things pertaining to life and godliness may be an indication that it is a non-issue, and would perhaps explain the difficulty we have had over the years trying to explain it. Just more food for thought. Peace!

        • http://www.aol.com Andybob

          There is no basis in the Bible for the Trinity so says the Bible Scholars of the International Bible Encyclopedia. See Internet reference here: http://www.internationalstandardbible.com/T/trinity-1.html

  • Sharon One God Reed

    Hear, O Israel: The Lord our God is one Lord. Deuteronomy 6:4

    • STAF

      The Trinity doctrine is Catholic based, not Bible based. There is one God (Spirit) and one man (Flesh). God was in flesh (Spirit in Man = Jesus Christ).

      • Pastor Howard

        Correct. The Godhead is biblical and teaches that God is one…three MANIFESTATIONS, but one LORD who is but one GOD! Not two Lords or two Gods (…since God means “Supreme Being”, there cannot be two Supreme Heads).

        The trinity doctrine (i.e., the existence of God as three persons,) is man’s erroneous attempt at explaining what is only revealed by the Spirit of God and not the “wisdom of men”, that is the Godhead.

        If you choose the doctrine of men (trinity), the doctrine of God (the Godhead) is greater and a better option.

        • Barbara LeFevre

          Pastor Howard~

          As I understand your explanation, you dismiss the Trinity doctrine (one God as three persons) as “man’s erroneous attempt at explaining…the Godhead,” but your explanation, that “God is one…three MANIFESTATIONS,” if given as an alternative to the Trinity doctrine, can only be understood as modalism, the belief that God, at different times in history, has manifested Himself sometimes as the Father, sometimes as the Son, and sometimes as the Holy Spirit. How does this belief harmonize with verses such as Matthew 26:39 where Jesus is praying to the Father or Luke 3:22 when the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit are all present together?

          Barbara

          • STAF

            If I could jump in…
            a manifestation of God can happen more than once at a time. It’s not like switching hats or roles like an on/off switch.

            I’m certain God could have spoken from heaven, get baptized, descend upon a man, appear in a burning bush, blow through the air as a rushing mighty wind, speak as a still small voice, appear as an angel in a fiery furnace and live in each believer’s heart, all at the same time if He wanted to. That does not mean that there are 8 different Gods/Persons because I described 8 different ways He revealed Himself. He’s God, He’s everywhere all at the same time. He can reveal Himself in mind blowing ways.

          • Barbara LeFevre

            Staf~

            You most certainly can jump in! That God can reveal Himself in different ways, even if “mind blowing” is not the point. That God transcends reason does not mean He ignores it. To suggest that God the Father sent Himself to Earth as someone else to die for man’s sins is erroneous in itself, but to suggest that He, as Jesus, prayed to Himself, as the Father, is just illogical.

            I also have a question. Why can you use the argument that all the examples you gave “…does not mean that there are 8 different Gods/Persons because I described 8 different ways He revealed Himself,” but we cannot say that this does not mean that there are 3 different Gods/Persons because we describe 3 different ways He revealed Himself?

            Barbara

          • STAF

            Hi Barbara, thank you for reading my post. I think it is contrary to Trinity teaching that says that God (Son) would pray to God (Father). In Trinity they are all equal, share same divinity and power. Why does God need to pray to God? I believe the man Jesus prayed to God. Jesus is both fully God and fully man.

          • Barbara LeFevre

            Staf~

            Okay. I am more than a little confused at just where you stand with regard to the Trinity because it seems to me that you are arguing both sides. It is either that or you don’t have a solid understanding of just what the Trinity is, or maybe I am just not understanding what you are writing. If the Father is God, and He is, and if the Son is God, and He is, and if the Holy Spirit is God and He is, then there are either three Gods, in direct opposition to Deuteronomy 6:4 or there is a Triune God. There are no other options. Yes, Jesus was fully man and fully God, and I believe that it was the man Jesus who prayed to the Father also. Why are you bringing this up? I never stated or implied otherwise. I think we are having a slight miscommunication.

            Barbara

          • STAF

            Good morning, I was referring to what you wrote, “but to suggest that He, as Jesus, prayed to Himself, as the Father, is just illogical.”

            When the Bible refers to “the Son” it is referring to the man (God incarnate). I don’t believe the man is God because God is a Spirit. That Spirit was in the man “God was manifest in the flesh (man)”. This is also confirmed by Jesus, “The Son can do nothing of himself, but what he seeth the Father do: for what things soever he doeth, these also doeth the Son likewise.” John 5:19

            Again, “But of that day and that hour knoweth no man, no, not the angels which are in heaven, neither the Son, but the Father” Mark 13:32

            Jesus is God in the flesh. When people looked and talked to Jesus they were talking to the Father in the Flesh, “he that hath seen me hath seen the Father…the words that I speak unto you I speak not of myself: but the Father that dwelleth in me, he doeth the works.” John 14:9-10.

            The Trinity doctrine uses the term “God the Son”, a term not found in the bible. It wasn’t a third part of the Spirit of God that dwelt in the man but the One and Only Spirit of God dwelt in the man.

          • Barbara LeFevre

            I just have one short comment so that I am not misunderstood. I am not saying that Jesus, while on Earth, ever gave up His divinity, only that He didn’t avail Himself of certain aspects of it.

          • TheBereangirl

            God is not the author of confusion, but the Trinity is very confusing and not taught in the OT, the foundation of the NT.
            The truth is not confusing but it can be rejected.

            Now then, does all of Scripture harmonize in regards to this belief? We simply cannot take two or three verses out of context and make them say what we want to believe. I can’t tell you how many people I have witnessed to over the years have said, “People make the Bible say what ever they want it to say, so you can’t trust it.” using this as an excuse not to believe God’s word. And sadly, they are not wrong. But, what they have not considered is this: The Bible is to be interpreted according to the One who wrote it, God’s Holy Spirit. For example: If I were to read a sign that said, “Permitted Parking”, and I thought to myself, great I can park here. Then I get a ticket, who is at fault, me or the officer? Who wrote the sign? The city law makers did. If I go to court and tell the judge my interpretation, he is going to base his interpretation on the intended meaning which is only people with permits can park in that area. They wrote the law, so they know what is meant, and they rightly gave the ticket, I’m in the wrong. So let us do what Isa.8:20 admonishes us to do.

            So when Jesus prays to the Father in Matt. 26:39, which is really Himself, He is just being a good Teacher, and Shepherd, and Father. I’m a mom, and I taught my children how to ask me for what they need – “Son”, I said, “say, ‘Mommy, I would like a glass of water, please.'” Does this mean I’m praying to myself or I am more than one person? No. I’m giving my son proper instruction on how to address me and ask for his needs. People can’t read minds like Jesus can, so words need to be spoken, and written down to give proper instruction.

            Jesus said He didn’t need to pray out loud, He knew His Father always heard Him, He prayed out loud for their sakes and ours in John 17 and elsewhere.

            Jesus is our phyisical representation of the Father – Isa. 9:6; ; John 1:1-4; Phil. 1:6-8 etc. So God came to us bodily, made Himself known to us by the name of Jesus, to show us the Father (John 14)and to teach us how to pray (Matt. 6:9-13) and how to live in His grace (Matt.5, and also to die a physical death to pay for our sin with His Holy, innocent blood according to Leviticus 16.

            I had one person who rejects the Trinity, yet believes Jesus is not God but only the Messiah, tell me that it is impossible for God to be His own Son. Really? He found something impossible for God to do! I would like him and others like him to do what the Pharisees could not do and answer Jesus’ question, “If the Messiah is David’s son, (and He is), then how is it that David calls Him Lord?”

            What about all the other scriptures that seem to support The Trinity (3 seperate, co-equal, co-eternal persons)? Well, what does God say in Isa. 46:5 say?

            “To whom will you liken Me(singular), and make Me (singular)equal and compare Me(singular), that we (The Almighty and another god) should be alike?”

            What does Isa. 44:6-8 say?

            “Thus says the LORD, the King of Israel (title of Jesus), and His Redeemer, the Lord of hosts(title of Jesus): ‘I am the First and I am the Last (Jesus again); besides Me there is no God. And who can proclaim as I do? Then let him declare it and set in order for Me, since I appointed the ancient people. And the things that are coming and shall come, let them show these to them. Do not fear, nor be afraid; Have I not told you from that time, and declared it? You are My witnesses. Is there a God besides Me? Indeed there is no other Rock; I know not one.'”

            These alone tells me there is no co-equal, co-eternal 3 persons or The Almighty would have worded these passages very differently. Then He goes on to speak of idols and false gods in these chapters, which the idea of “The Trinity” can be easily linked to pagan worship.

            Why do we seek to limit Him or make Him 3 seperate persons inorder to do what He ALONE can easily do, all by HIMSELF? There are a handful of Scriptures that can be twisted to support the false notion of The Trinity, yet the bulk of Scripture points to One God, who represents Himself in many ways.

            So who is my God? Jesus is His name, and His Holy Spirit was sent by the Father to dwell and fellowship within me. All one in the same being, opperating in differnt roles or offices- the one and only omnipotent, omnipresent, omniscient, and omnific God, God Almighty.

        • Drew Bondservant

          So it seems that your exigesis is that you don’t like the word trinity because that specific word doesn’t appear in scripture, but the idea of 3 persons in one you do agree with?

        • http://blueletterbible.org Larry “itisfinished” Jefferson

          Good point Pastor Howard.

      • Eric

        There are many scriptures supporting the doctrine of the Trinity with I John 5:7 being the clearest: “For there are three that bear record in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost: and these three are one.”

        • STAF

          Yes, these three are one.

          • Billy

            Isa 9:6 For unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given: and the government shall be upon his shoulder: and his name shall be called Wonderful, Counsellor, The mighty God, The everlasting Father, The Prince of Peace.

            There is really nothing more to say, There is only One…. :)

        • http://blueletterbible.org Larry “itisfinished” Jefferson

          If the three are ONE, what happens to the three, i.e. the trinity?
          This verse seems to be more supportive of the unity of the One True God.

        • http://www.capitaldynamicsre.com Kenneth Jelladian

          This is an excerpt from a letter that I have to follow:

          [The Corruption in 1 John 5:7] – From, “The King James Version and the Textus Receptus – Their History, Accuracy and Relevance Today,” by Robert Nguyen Cramer. BibleTexts.com (version 5.2.19.2) http://www.bibletexts.com/kjv-tr.htm#1jo0507 “Truly major differences between the KJV and modern translations of the New Testament are primarily due to the inaccuracy of the so-called Textus Receptus [TR], the Greek text upon which the KJV’s New Testament was based. According to Bruce Metzger (The Text of the New Testament: Its Transmission, Corruption, and Restoration, Third Edition, Oxford University Press, 1992, pages 95-118), the TR primarily resulted from the work of a Dutch Roman Catholic priest and Greek scholar by the name of Desiderius Erasmus, who published his first Greek New Testament text in 1516. The first edition of Erasmus’ text was hastily and haphazardly prepared over the extremely short period of only five months. (ibid., page 106) That edition was based mostly upon two inferior twelfth century Greek manuscripts, which were the only manuscripts available to Erasmus “on the spur of the moment” (ibid., page 99).

          1 Jo 5:7,[verse 8 excluded from quote] – an example of textual corruption. Notice that most of verse 7 (KJV-AMPLIFIED VERSION) is italicised, meaning that certain passages are now recognized as not adequately supported by the original manuscripts. “Even up to the fifth and final edition of Erasmus’ Greek text in 1535, Erasmus, [though a fine scholar], occasionally fell prey to pressure from Roman Catholic church authorities to add to subsequent editions phrases and entire verses that he strongly (and rightly) suspected were not part of the original text. Metzger (Ibid., pages 100-101) and others document how Erasmus was manipulated to include what later was translated into the KJV in 1 Jo 5:7,8 the following text: “in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost; and these three are one.” Conservative biblical scholar F.F. Bruce (History of the English Bible, Third Edition, New York: Oxford University Press, 1978, pages 141-142) explains the sad history of how those words were errantly added to Erasmus’ Greek text of 1 Jo 5:7,[verse 8 excluded from quote].

          “The words [“in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost; and these three are one.”] are omitted in the R.V. [Revised Version, 1881] were not part of the original Greek text, nor yet of the Latin Vulgate in its earliest form. They first appear in the writings of a Spanish Christian leader named Priscillian, who was executed for heresy in A.D. 385. Later they made their way into copies of the Latin text of the Bible. When Erasmus prepared his printed edition of the Greek New Testament, he rightly left those words out, but was attacked for this by people who felt that the passage was a valuable proof-text for the doctrine of the Trinity. He replied (rather incautiously) that if he could be shown any Greek manuscript which contained the words, he would include them in his next edition. Unfortunately, a Greek manuscript not more than some twenty years old was produced in which the words appeared: they had been translated into Greek from Latin. Of course, the fact that the only Greek manuscript exhibiting the words belonged to the sixteenth century was in itself an argument against their authenticity, but Erasmus had given his promise, and so in his 1522 edition he included the passage. (To-day one or two other very late Greek manuscripts are known to contain these passages; all others omit it.)

          “[For more details on Erasmus’ addition of the 1 Jo 5:7 [verse 8 excluded from quote] text, see Metzger’s, “The Text of the New Testament,” Second Edition, pages 101-102 and also http://www.bibletexts.com/versecom/1jo05v07.htm.

          A Brother in Christ,

          Kenneth Jelladian

          • Barbara LeFevre

            Kenneth,

            You had asked me to respond to several concerns that you had. After I was feeling better, I posted my response, but you never acknowledged it, and I was wondering if you had read it.

            Barbara

          • Barbara LeFevre

            I posted it on July 18.

          • http://www.capitaldynamicsre.com Kenneth Jelladian

            Barbara, I am studying your July 18th response and my reply will be forthcoming.

          • Barbara LeFevre

            Kenneth,

            Thank you for letting me know. I just wasn’t sure if you had read it or if you wanted to continue. As you said to me, there is no rush!

            Barbara

      • http://blueletterbible.org Larry “itisfinished” Jefferson

        Staf, do you have any supporting scripture for this position? Interesting, but where’s the proof? :)

        • STAF

          Hi Larry. Here are only a few scriptures that confirm this truth. I could post more but it would be tedious. I believe God is very clear when it comes to the Oneness of His nature. It is impossible to evenly divide up a Spirit into 3 equal parts. This would only make Jesus a 1/3 part God. I believe He was and is the fullness of God. There are so many scriptures that confirm this.

          God is a Spirit
          John 4:23-24
          Acts 7:48-49
          Acts 17:24-28
          Psalm 139:7-12
          1 Kings 8:27
          Jeremiah 23:23-24

          There is But One God
          Deuteronomy 6:4-9
          Mark 12:28-34
          Malachi 2:10
          Isaiah 44:6-8
          Isaiah 45:2-6, 21-23
          Isaiah 46:8-9
          1 Corinthians 8:4-6
          Ephesians 4:5-6
          1 Timothy 2:5
          James 2:19
          Revelation 4:2-3

          Jesus is God
          Isaiah 7:14
          Isaiah 9:6
          Micah 5:2
          John 1:1, 14
          John 1:10
          John 8:24, 58-59
          John 14:6-11
          2 Corinthians 5:19
          1 Timothy 3:16

          Jesus is Man
          Isaiah 7:14
          Isaiah 9:6
          Luke 1:31; 2:6-7
          Acts 17:31
          Galatians 4:4
          Philippians 2:7-8
          1 Timothy 2:5
          Hebrews 4:15
          Hebrews 7:24-25

          Jesus Christ is the I AM of the Old Testament.
          Exodus 3:13,14
          Isaiah 43:10-25
          John 18-5-8 (the “he” is not in original)
          Revelation 1:17-18
          John 8:24-25
          John 6:51
          John 8:23
          John 8:12
          John 8:58
          John 10:9
          John 10:11

          • http://blueletterbible.org Larry “itisfinished” Jefferson

            Thanks Staf, I will check these out. I trust the Holy Spirit to bear witness to the Truth.

      • Pentecostal Oneness

        One God named Jesus Christ! Col 2:9 For in him dwells all the FULLNESS of the Godhead bodily. The Godhead simply cannot be divided or diminished. There needs to be an understanding about the dual nature of Jesus Christ, the word incarnate. My only question to Trinitarians is how are the Father, Son and Holy Spirit “distinct?” In mind, essence or will?

      • SteveB

        Actually, the term– Trinity– may be based in Catholicism, but the concept of 3 distinct persons, defined as One God is biblical, through and through.
        As I’ve long understood it– the term- Trinity– is due to man’s attempts to simplify the highly complex nature of God.
        However, to give you the idea on a simply platform– go read up on the concept in science–
        Triple Point of Water.
        It’s the temperature and pressure, at which the h2o molecule exists in 3 states (liquid/water, gas/steam, and solid/ice) all in the same space and time.

        Moreover, the whole of fruit is another good example. Fruit has skin, meat, and pit/seed.
        Ever observed an apple that has been peeled?
        How long does it last without the skin? (1-2 hours and they start turning brown)
        My former supervisor had a habit of playing with apples. He would let them sit in his shelf at the office, and they would take 2-3 months to decompose– with skin on them.

        The point is that all throughout nature, life, etc…, we see the idea of 3-in-1.

        • roman b

          I am also three in one: Body , Soul , and Spirit (1Thes 5:23)
          I am also revealed to all in three persons, I am a father (to my children)
          a son (to my parents) and a husband to my wife.

          • STAF

            Right and I bet that you are only 1 person with one name but three roles or relationships. Your name isn’t father or son or husband. Those are titles of who you are. There is one name that identifies you and that name gives you authority. I believe that God has revealed Himself in many ways and has many different relationships but today He has revealed Himself as Jesus Christ. The power is in the name!

            He is my friend, my Shepherd, my Father, my Brother, my Husband, my Savior, my God, my Redeemer, my Rock and His name is Jesus Christ, God Almighty. Isn’t He amazing?!

          • roman b

            In much the same way, there is only one way you can get into my family. That is – you need to be one of my children ether born or adopted. No other way in…
            Heaven works this way to.
            John 3:3 Jesus answered and said unto him, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God.
            Acts 4:12 Neither is there salvation in any other: for there is none other name under heaven given among men, whereby we must be saved.
            John 14:6 Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me.
            This is the only way in to Gods family, no other way. If you don’t like it you take it up with the Father.

        • http://blueletterbible.org Larry “itisfinished” Jefferson

          Good analogies for natural life, and science.
          However, they fall short of the glory of God, when attempting to validate the 3 in 1 trinitarian theory.

          • roman b

            YHWH is to good for the word Trinity. Trinity is just a word for systematic theology books. I think when we see Him in all his glory we will not have any words to describe Him. Maybe thats why it says ” Be still and know that I am God” Its only a mater of getting there…
            So continue to: “grow in grace, and [in] the knowledge of our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ. To him [be] glory both now and for ever. Amen. 2Pet 3:18

        • TheBereangirl

          I agree that the Trinity is based in Catholicism and that there is the concept of 3-in-1 through out nature. But what I don’t get is why people refuse to consider the higher concept of the 3 are 1 in the same?

          Your analogy seems sound except how is the skin of the apple co-equal to its pulp and seeds? When the seed is planted it dies, yet makes more apples, what about the skin and pulp? They only rot and make food for the seed. They each have different functions or “offices” that make up the whole apple, but they can’t stand on their own and call themselves an apple. Clearly these things are not equal, yet they are all needed to make the apple possible.

          I have found that all of the analogies for The Trinity: states of water, the egg, a pie, etc. only go to prove The Trinity doesn’t exist as they define it: “three seperate co-equal, co-eternal persons”. The states of water can actally be the closest to a real analogy of God’s true nature. Water is still water no matter what form it takes, even though it is called by other names.

          The only analogy even close to the actual Trinitarian definition is the clover leaf, which has 3 leaves that are equal and seperate. Incidentally, I reacently learned that St. Patrick never even used that analogy, and according to his personal papers, he never taught nor did he believe in The Trinity, go figure!

          Spirit bears witness to spirit, there are things that can’t be physically discerned, and God’s nature is one of them. He is not three seperate persons, that is the textbook definition of polytheism. Yet we struggle on, trying to make God fit our limited human understanding.

          What would happen if Jesus came to you and said, “Steve, I Am that I Am, there is no other God but Me. I am the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit, there is no other, the 3 are one in the same.” Then He proceeded to open up scripture after scripture to you from Gen. to Rev. explaining this, would you believe Him or would you teach Jesus that He is wrong by going into the egg, pie, and apple analogies?

          This is what people do. They don’t back up their Trinity Teaching with all of Scripture, because there are only a few mis-interpreted and mis-understood verses that men twist to get people to follow them. Jesus did use parables and analogies to try and get us to understand spiritual concepts like: the new birth, how His word affects our life, what the kingdom of God is like, and his second coming. But I have yet to find a parable where Jesus definatively uses an analogy for the three seperate co-equal, co-eternal persons in one God, concept.

          Well, that is, I haven’t run across one, so if you know of any Trinity parables Jesus taught, then please share it with me, really, I’m not trying to be snotty.

          • TheBereangirl

            roman b, the above reply was supposed to go to steveB not you, sorry.

          • http://www.capitaldynamicsre.com Kenneth Jelladian

            Amen.

      • http://www.aol.com Andybob

        With love in my heart for God’s people I say this:

        Jesus was only a man like you and I and God, our Father whose name is “Yahweh”, was in him doing the works, the miracles, etc. See John 14:10

        “Do you not believe that I am in the Father, and the Father in Me? The words that I speak to you I do not speak on My own authority; but the Father who dwells in Me does the works.”

        Yahweh is God and Jesus is a man and Jesus, the man, is our mediator between God and us. 1 Tim 2:5

        “For there is one God and one Mediator between God and men, the Man Christ Jesus,”

        Our “one” God and Father is a spirit, thee Holy Spirit. John 4:24

        “God is a Spirit: and they that worship him must worship [him] in spirit and in truth.”

        God cannot die or be tempted however Jesus did die on the cross and was buried and he was tempted 40 days in the wilderness.

        1 Tim 1:17, “Now to the King eternal, immortal, invisible, the only God, be honor and glory forever and ever. Amen. NIV” (Deut 33:27 …eternal God…KJV)

        James 1:13 “Let no one say when he is tempted, “I am tempted by God”; for God cannot be tempted by evil, nor does He Himself tempt anyone.”

        If one chooses to believe in the Trinity than their beliefs are contrary to the written word of God. God the Son (second person of the trinity) by definition cannot die, but a man can die and did.
        If one chooses to believe in a trinity then God the son cannot be tempted.

        It is quite simple God dwells in men just like He dwelt in Jesus Christ.

        Much Agape love,
        Andybob

        • http://blueletterbible.org Larry “itisfinished” Jefferson

          Excuse me! but, Jesus was not “only a man like you and I”, you and I are born in sin and under the power of sin from birth, not so with Jesus the Christ.

    • Elijah Hall

      “For unto us a Child is born, Unto us a Son is given; And the government will be upon His shoulder. And His name will be called Wonderful, Counselor, Mighty God, Everlasting Father, Prince of Peace.” -Isaiah 9:6. The Child and Son that is given “will be called…Mighty God!” So Jesus is more than just a man. He is the second person of the trinity.

      “And Jesus, when he was baptized, went up straightway out of the water: and, lo, the heavens were opened unto him, and he saw the Spirit of God descending like a dove, and lighting upon him:And lo a voice from heaven, saying, This is my beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased.” – Matthew 3:17. Jesus was on Earth. The Father was in heaven speaking and the Holy Spirit was descending on Him like a dove. There are numerous scriptures to prove the Spirit is also God, i.e.,”2 Corinthians 3:17-Now the Lord IS the Spirit; and where the Spirit of the Lord is, there is liberty.” Acts 5:3-4

      But Peter said, “Ananias, why has Satan filled your heart to lie to the Holy Spirit and keep back part of the price of the land for yourself? “While it remained, was it not your own? And after it was sold, was it not in your own control? Why have you conceived this thing in your heart? You have not lied to men but to God.” “In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.The same was in the beginning with God.All things were made by him (Jesus); and without him was not any thing made that was made.And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth.”-John 1:1,2,14

      The Father is God.
      The Son is God.
      The Holy Ghost is God.
      The Father is not the Son.
      The Father is not the Holy Ghost.
      The Son is not the Holy Ghost.
      But there is precisely one perfect and indivisible God,
      not three “Gods”.

      Lying to the Holy Spirit (verse 3) is lying to God (verse 4). So, it seems again, that the Spirit is God.

      • STAF

        I agree with some of what you said, Jesus is more than just a man, he is both God and man. Jesus Christ is God Almighty, the First and the Last, Alpha and Omega, God manifest in the flesh.

        A few quick questions,
        – Is the Father holy?
        – Is the Father a Spirit?
        – Is the Father a Holy Spirit?
        My conclusion is the Father is a Holy Spirit.
        Are there one or two Holy Spirits? I say the Holy Spirit is our Father because He created us and all things.

        One Spirit referred to in many terms: God, Father, Holy Spirit, Spirit of Truth, Comforter, Spirit of Christ. These are not many different spirits but just different terms for the One True Spirit of God.

        The Son refers to the humanity of Jesus Christ: Son of God, Son of Man, Messiah, the Christ, the Mediator between God and Man the man Christ Jesus.

        God (Spirit) cannot die. Therefore God Himself came to earth as a man born from Mary and became flesh (John 1:14). The man (Son) died on the cross in our place. The Spirit didn’t die, just the body. Jesus Christ is both fully God and fully Man.

        • http://blogs.blueletterbible Beth

          Staf,Jesus also helped create ALL things.[Col1:16-17]Even though He was not yet incarnated.[Matt.1:18,21]Jesus was the Word in the beginning.[John1:1]God SPOKE the WORD and everything created came to be.The Holy Spirit was there also,[Gen.1:2]. I pray that this helped!LOve to all my bros and sis’ in Christ.

          • STAF

            Thanks! I believe that the name of Jesus describes both: the man (Son) and the Spirit of God (Father). So I agree completely with you. Jesus did create all things and existed before Abraham was ever born. But people get the term “Son” confused. The “Son” describes the incarnation of God. God was not always incarnated in a body. That happened when He overshadowed Mary around the year 3 B.C. Jesus said, “He that hath seen me hath seen the Father” and “Believest thou not that I am in the Father, and the Father in me? the words that I speak unto you I speak not of myself: but the Father that dwelleth in me, he doeth the works” John 14:10. The Father is the Spirit of God. “God was in Christ” 2 Cor. 5:19.

            The Word is the Spirit of God. John 1:1
            The Word became flesh and dwelt among us vs.14
            There is only One God (Spirit) and One Man (Son). These two became one in Mary’s womb. Mary’s humanity and God’s deity created Jesus Christ, the Son of God, both God and Man. I hope this helps.

  • Joshua

    The triquetra that is supposed to be a representation of the ” trinity” is pagan to its core. It’s amazing how many supposed Christian people and institutions use it. We have to do better at seperating ourselves from the things of this world.

  • David Barnett

    In the beginning when God made man in His image He created us triune beings consisting of body, soul, and spirit.
    1 Thessalonians 5:23 (NKJV)
    23 Now may the God of peace Himself sanctify you completely; and may your whole spirit, soul, and body be preserved blameless at the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ.
    Since we are made in His image let us assume that God as a triune being is well – body,soul,and spirit. Even though we were created in His image as triune beings the laws(physical) that govern the triunity of mans being are different from those that govern the triunity of God. Where we cannot exist if one of these three parts are separated from the other, with God He exists with all three parts separate because He is God. Since my body,soul and spirit make me who I am as a person, then the person of God is also the whole of the three parts. So we have the person of God in three parts – body,soul, and spirit. So we do not have three persons for one God , we have the person of God in three parts.

  • Shelly

    Paul, an apostle of Jesus Christ by the commandment of God our Saviour, and Lord Jesus Christ, [which is] our hope; (1 Timothy 1:1)

    Grace [be] to you, and peace, from God our Father, and [from] the Lord Jesus Christ. (Ephesians 1:2)

    To the saints and faithful brethren in Christ which are at Colosse: Grace [be] unto you, and peace, from God our Father and the Lord Jesus Christ. (Colossians 1:2)

    Grace [be] to you and peace from God the Father, and [from] our Lord Jesus Christ, (Galatians 1:3)

    Paul understood that God is the Father and Jesus Christ is His only begotten Son. There is no ‘salutation’ to a ‘third’ person. The Holy Spirit is God’s Spirit which dwells in the Father and the Son and every born again believer in the Lord Jesus Christ.

    But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his. (Romans 8:9)

    • STAF

      Well put!

    • Theophilus

      Lets take a look at some verses here

      2 Peter 1:21 “For the prophecy came not in old time by the will of man: but holy men of God spake [as they were] moved by the Holy Ghost.”

      2 Timothy 3:16 “All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness.”

      First off the role of the Holy Spirit is to teach us all things and to bring remembrance to us all the things that Jesus said. And so thats why there is no salutation to a ‘third person’ because the third person is inspiring and teaching and bringing to remembrance.

      Its like going to a lakers game and watching only the 5 starting players be introduced by the announcer before the game and the rest of the players not announced at all. Are they not part of the team? Of course they are!

    • Barbara LeFevre

      Shelly~

      While it is true that it is the Holy Spirit that dwells in believers, to make a case that He is not the third person in the Triune God based only upon four verses is not a logical conclusion because it excludes a great deal of the Word of God. As I am sure you would agree, we are to consider all Scripture when formulating doctrine (II Tim. 3:16). When that is done, a very different picture of the Holy Spirit emerges. There is an excellent article on the Trinity in the commentaries’ section of the BLB. After you study it, I would like to hear your thoughts.

      Have a blessed day!
      Barbara

      • Barbara LeFevre

        Sorry. I left out the author’s name. It is Robert Bowman, Jr.

    • Rex Cleveland

      Jesus said, “But the Helper, the Holy Spirit, whom the Father will send in My name, He will teach you all things, and bring to your remembrance all that I have said to you.” John 14:26 NASV. Clearly, there are three individuals listed in that verse: the Holy Spirit, the Father and Jesus.
      Jesus said, regarding one of the many ministries of the Holy Spirit, “But when He the Spirit of truth, comes, He will guide you into all the truth: for He will not speak on His own initiative, but whatever He hears, He will speak; and He will disclose to you what is to come. He shall glorify Me; for He shall take of mine, and disclose it to you.” John 16:13-14. One reason “There is no ‘salutation’ to a ‘third’ person.” as you said, is seen in these verses: “He shall glorify Me’ (Jesus). My prayer is that He would disclose this to you.
      Next, because “All Scripture is inspired by God and profitable for teaching, for reproof, for correction, for training in righteousness; that the man of God may be adequate, equipped for every good work.” II Tim. 3:16-17, the following verse (my favorite benediction) clearly states the personal intervention of the three members (individual personas) of the Godhead (one nature, essence: GOD) in the lives of all true believers, “The grace of the Lord Jesus Christ, and the love of God, and the fellowship of the Holy Spirit, be with you all.” II Cor. 13:14.
      [The fundamental importance of the doctrine of the Trinity is beyond estimation: “The doctrine of the Trinity is essential to the orthodox Christian faith. Trinitarian thought pervades the New Testament and it is presupposed in the central doctrines of the Incarnation (Luke 1:35), Atonement (Hebrews 9:14), Resurrection (Romans 8:11) and Salvation (I Peter 1:2) as well as in the practice of water baptism (Matthew 28:19) and prayer (Ephesians 2:18). Consequently, there can be no doubt that failure to accept the Trinity will lead to fatal errors in the rest of one’s theology.” (Joel Parkinson, The Intellectual Triunity of God, in The Trinity Review, January, 1992; page 1).
      There can be no questioning whatsoever as to the truth of this fundamental point of Christian doctrine. For apart from an unreserved acceptance of the doctrine of the triunity of God, we wil make shipwreck of the entire Christian theological structure, and consequently the entire faith that was once and for all delivered to the saints! It was this same conviction which led Cornelius Van Til to emphatically assert that, “Every type of heresy is, in the last analysis, an attack on the Trinity.” (An Introduction to Systematic Theology, page 223).] The above section (two paragraphs) is from Richard Goswiller, The Attributes of God, page 79, http://www.licministries.com.
      May the word of God teach, reprove and correct all of us.

      • STAF

        I absolutely affirm the Bible uses terms for God like Father, Holy Spirit, Comforter, Son of God, Lord, Jehovah, Yahweh, Shepherd, Spirit of Truth. But I don’t believe that proves that each is its own person. Is the Spirit of Truth and the Comforter two different persons or one in the same? I believe its referring to the same One God. God is both the Comforter and the Spirit of Truth and the Holy Spirit.

        When we received the Spirit of God, the Comforter, whom Jesus spoke of, we received the Spirit that was in Christ (same Spirit). Notice what Jesus says, “[Even] the Spirit of truth; whom the world cannot receive, because it seeth him not, neither knoweth him: but ye know him; for he dwelleth with you, and shall be in you. I will not leave you comfortless: I will come to you”

        “…I will come to you”. Jesus said He himself will come to us. Not another but the Lord himself, just in a different form. Not as a man, but as the Spirit of God.

        Jesus also said, “and, lo, I am with you alway, even unto the end of the world.” Matt. 28:20.

        There was much confusion after the first generation church and Apostles died. The forming of the Roman Catholic Church via politics brought many false and pagan thoughts into being.

        Constantine, a converted Christian (debatably), called for a council meeting (325 AD) to be held in Nicea with the bishops of the Christian church to resolve escalating quarrels and controversy mounting to a bitter degree of disunity among the church leadership concerning theological issues. The failing Roman Empire, now under Constantine’s rule, could not withstand the division caused by years of hard-fought, “out of hand” arguing over doctrinal differences. He saw it not only as a threat to Christianity but as a threat to society as well.

        He and the bishops had reason to worry about the future survival of Christianity within the Roman world empire, let alone the survival of his world empire. The Council of Nicea, led by Emperor Constantine, was the meeting to settle differences

        The main theological issue and focus had always been about Christ. Since the end of the Apostolic Age and beginning of the Church Age, saints began questioning, debating, fighting, and separating over the question, “Who is the Christ?”

        Once the Nicea Council meeting was underway Constantine demanded that the 300 bishops make a decision by majority vote defining who Jesus Christ is. Constantine commanded them to create a “creed” doctrine that all of Christianity would follow and obey, a doctrine that would be called the “Nicene Creed,” upheld by the Church and enforced by the Emperor.

    • http://blogs.blueletterbible Beth

      Shelly,even tho’Paul might not have acknowledged the Holy Spirit in a salutation,he did acknowledge all “three” in 2Cor.13:14.

      • http://blogs.blueletterbible Beth

        Sorry! This was suppose to go to Shelly’s reply.

  • https://www.facebook.com/pages/Let-Jesus-reveal-Truth-FBible-Study/222481671187054?ref=tn_tnmn Annie

    Listen it is all explained in the word of God:

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_nIFM0P4Rp8

    • STAF

      very good message! God Bless!

  • Linda Harris

    If it were that big a deal (as well as true)surely the omnipotent all knowing God would have used the “word” in his Word. You really have to stretch the scriptures to get the Trinity out of it, as well as avoid any scripture that states the contrary.

    • Barbara LeFevre

      Linda~

      It IS a big deal if one wants to rightly divide the Word of God (II Tim. 2:15), and your comment that “You really have to stretch the scriptures to get the Trinity out of it, as well as avoid any scripture that states the contrary” is just wrong. As I wrote to Shelly, there is a very good source right here on the BLB site that discusses the Triune nature of God. It is an outline written by Robert Bowman, Jr., and it can be found in the commentaries’ section. After studying it, I would like your thoughts.

      Have a blessed day!
      Barbara

  • Linda Harris

    John 1:1 In the beginning was O logos and O logos was WITH (pros, together with yet distinctly independent of, now “If” that word “pros” wasn’t there you might make a case for the Trinity) )Ton Theon. And “theos” was O logos. He was in the beginning WITH (pros) Ton Theon.

    Ton Theon and “theos” a god, a divine being who is called “O logos”, according to this scripture are two distintly different individuals. One states he is the father, and calls the other his son. 1+1=2. Only Satan exaulting himself and wanting to be “like” the most high changed the math to 1+1+the wannabe=the trinity = mystery of iniquity.

  • Donna Martin

    ” for there are three that bear witness in heaven: the Father, the Word, and the Holy Spirit, and these three are one. And there are three that bear witness on earth, ” the Spirit, the water, and the blood: and these three agree as one. 1 John5:7-8 Jude 18-20 .. they told you that there would be mockers in the last time who would walk according to their own ungodly lusts. These are sensual persons, who cause divisions, not having the Spirit. But you, beloved, building yourselves up on your most holy faith, praying in the Holy Spirit, keep yourselves in the love of God, looking for the mery of our Lord Jesus Christ unto eternal life.. JUST LET THE WORD EXPLAIN!!!!!! BLESSINGS TO THE HEARERS!!!!!

    • http://blogs.blueletterbible.org/blb/2012/07/12/the-trinity-what-difference-does-it-make/#comments Victor M.

      I John 5:7-8 are not found in the original Greek text before the 16 hundreds. It was added to the Bible when the King James version of the Bible was created. Most bibles will clearly note this at the Bottom of the page

      I think that it is very important that People know the exact nature of God because to not Know God is death eternal. Eternal condemnation as when the virgins of Matthew 25 came back to the Lord after the marriage feast of the Lord had begun and they wanted to enter into the Lord and the Lord tells them to depart from him, “ye doers of Inquity,” because He never knew them! In other words they believed that they knew the Lord but did not and did wrongly because they did not know God.

      For anyone to say that God is three persons in one God is not to Know the scriptures or God. Jesus describes the Father as a complete and seperate person even when he states that the Father and Him are One. That is not literal but just like we say that we are one nation under God when this one Nation is actually 50 States United as is intended in the Constitution. Thus we are the United States of America but we are also One Nation; In “Spirit” only.

      God is two persons as clearly described in Scripture and Jesus had stated that the Father is Greater! So if the father is greater than how can they be three equal persons in one God?

      To say that the word was with God is to state that there are two persons, the Logos (One God being) was with God (another God being), that is describing two beings who both share the nature of what it means to be God. I am human and my son is human also. What else can he be but Human. certainly my son would not be a dog or a cat or some other Species but Human only and fully human.

      The Word became fully human and God at the same time. But the point is how can they be the same two beings and with each other at the same time? You can not be one singular being and with yourself at the same time. Even for God! There are things that even God can not do. Just like He can not sin, Neither can God break his own laws and character to be besides himself except as a way of saying, like when we say that we are besides ourselves with Grief. Other wise it just is not done.

      Only the spirit or mind of God can help us to fully understand just what God is. And that can only happen if we pray to God for understanding and closeness to God. And I mean really, humbly and truly pray for that. Otherwise we are just entertaining man made teachings and not knowing God at the same time.

      There is a saying that Goes… “And Knowing is half the battle.” Knowing God is that important and if we don’t know God then in the final judgement of all things, after the millenial reign of Jesus (According to the word of God), we shall see just how important Knowing God really is!

      • roman b

        Jhn 14:6 Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me.

        thats all you need to know…

  • Pastor. Gamaliel

    Dear brothers and sisters,

    I realy do not find a reason to get confused in this at all. As brother David Barnett says in his comment earlier it is very easily understandable. When we say God we mean the triune God. You wont say Gamaliel’s soul, Gamaliel’s spirit, or Gamaliel’s body. If you want to talk about me, you just say Gamaliel. The same way we do not say Father, Son, or Holy Spirit, but we say God. Worshipping the Father, is worshipping God; worshipping the Son, is also worshipping God; worshipping the Holy Spirit is also worshipping God. But no one goes to the father except through Jesus.

    Also, God is in spirit form, but it does not mean that God does not have a form. He does and no one has seen him.

    If we call the trinity as manifestations of GOD, where was GOD when Jesus was on this earth? It clearly says that they are 3 persons and 3 personalities. When Jesus was baptized and came out of the water, the heavens were opened and there was a voice from heaven which said “this is my beloved son, and I am pleased in him.” and the Holy spirit came upon him in the form of a dove. It is 3 different persons and not 3 personalities or 3 manifestations.

    Also it is not 3 Gods, but one God. when we say God we refer to all 3.

    • Joanne

      Three different persons were present at the baptism, yes. But the apostle Peter identified only ONEof them as God in Acts 10:38:

      “…how God anointed Jesus of Nazareth with the Holy Spirit and with power. He went about doing good and healing all who were oppressed by the devil, for God was with him.”

      This is alluding to Psalm 2:

      Psalm 2:2: “The kings of the earth set themselves, and the rulers take counsel together, against the LORD [YHWH] and against his Anointed…”

      Notice that both the Old Testament prophecy and the New Testmanet fulfillment plainly distinguish God from Jesus Christ.

    • STAF

      Is Jesus in the Godhead or is the Godhead in Jesus?
      The answer to this question should finish the debate.

      Answer: Colossians 2:9-10

  • steve morrow

    HELP US O LORD…….SHOW US WHEN PAUL WAS GIVEN YOUR WORDS TO PROCLAIM IN 1st & 2nd TIMOTHY

  • Linda

    When I read through the book of John and Jesus is talking with his disciples in chapter 14 He speaks of being in the Father and the Father is in Him. Then He says in vs. 16 and 17 that He will give us a Comforter, the Holy Spirit and He will dwell in us. In vs. 20 At that day you will know that I am in My Father, and you in Me, and I in you. That is three persons of God dwelling in us. What a mystery. The creator of the Universe, the Savior of my soul and the Comforter, the Spirit of truth dwell in me. It is more than I can comprehend!
    How great is His love and mercy.

  • Fu-Man

    How can we miss Matthew 28:19-20? Wasn’t Jesus obvious?Salvation is in The Trinity.

    • STAF

      I would like to point out something concerning Matthew 28:19. Jesus told his disciples to “Go…baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost”. Notice that Father is not a name, neither is Son or Holy Ghost. What “name” was he referring to? What is the name of the Father, Son and Holy Ghost?

      The answer is found in Acts 2:38. The very name the disciples baptized believers in.

      There is a great revelation here for those who are hungry for truth! God bless!

      • http://www.capitaldynamicsre.com Kenneth Jelladian

        Staf, His mother Mary called him by His Hebrew name, which is Yahushua. Yahushua ha Moshiach/the Messiah.

  • http://www.capitaldynamicsre.com Kenneth Jelladian

    Barbara:

    I question the truth of the doctrine of the Trinity, as defined as follows:

    “In respect of the doctrine of the Trinity,there is only one God in three persons. Each person is God, whole and entire. The three persons are distinct yet coexist in unity, and are co-equal, co-eternal and consubstantial (Greek: ὁμοούσιοι).” Wikipedia.

    With the acceptance of the above definition as reflecting the Trinity, I ask, “How can Yahushua (Jesus) be equal to the Father/How can the Trinitarian doctrine be true, in light of the following scriptural verses?:

    “Ye have heard how I said unto you, I go away, and come again unto you. If ye loved me, ye would rejoice, because I said, I go unto the Father: for my Father is greater than I.” John 14:28 KJV.

    In co-equality, one is not greater than the other.

    In Revelations 3:12, Even after Yahushua’s (Hebrew name of Jesus) resurrection and ascension, He refers to “My God,” consistently; 4 times. If Yahushua was “wholly God,” this reference, in the possessive, other then Self sense, would not occur.

    In John 17:21, quoted from the Aramaic English New Testament-Roth, we read, “That all of them may be One; as You, my Father, are in me, and I in You, that they also my be One in Us, so that the world might believe that You have sent Me.”

    The word One, as spoken in the above context, refers to the Hebrew word, “echad,” meaning, “unity.” Yahushua is not speaking in the context of Himself as being the Father–He is speaking of Himself as being echad-One-in-Unity with The Father. The word “One” could only be spoken in this sense of oneness, as he also refers to we humans as being “one with Us.” ‘Us’ also denotes plurality–Two Beings,in Heaven, in Unity.

    In Deuteronomy 6:4, we read “Hear, O Israel, The Lord our God is one Lord.” Yahushua alway’s recognizes the One True Father, on the earth and in Heaven, as above, so below, always referring to The Father; never saying that He is The Father.

    Yahushua, after His resurrection and ascension, sat at the right hand of the Father. This denotes two beings, in echad.

    Speaking also in the sense of Yahushua being echad/unity with His Father, in contradistinction to Yahushua being The Father,
    we read in John 14:20 – “At that day ye shall know that I am in my Father, and ye in me, and I in you.” How can Yahushua be “in” The Father if He is the Father, as the trinity would have us believe? Likewise, when we are in Him, that does not make us Him nor when Yahushua is in us does that make Him us.

    If Yahushua/Jesus was “Father in the flesh,” why then, at Gethsemane, did Yahushua say, “Nevertheless, not my will, but thine be done?” If Yahushua was The Father, as the trinity supposes, there would only be one Will-we wouldn’t then see Yahushua needing to align His Will with His Father’s Will. Again, we experience the expression of echad/unity, which denotes two operating in unity, as One. In John 5:30, HalleluYah Scriptures, we read, “Of Myself I am able to do naught. As I hear, I judge, and My judgment is righteous, because I do not seek My own desire, but the desire of the Father who sent me.”

    Can one who is dependent upon the other, be the other?
    Can one who seeks to subjugate His desire and His will to another, be the other. In the context of Yahushua speaking in John 5:30, He is speaking in terms of being one in echad/unity with His Father; He is not speaking of being The Father.

    John 5:20 – For the Father loveth the Son, and showeth him all things that[He] himself doeth: and he will show him greater works than these, that ye may marvel. If Yahushua/Jesus were “wholly God,” He wouldn’t have need of The Father showing Him even greater works, for He would already know these greater works.

    John 14:28 – “Ye have heard how I said unto you, I go away, and come again unto you. If ye loved me, ye would rejoice, because I said I go unto the Father: for my father is greater than I.” If Yahushua-Jesus was The Father, “wholly God, co-equal,” He wouldn’t be speaking about being greater than Himself. Referring to The Father as greater also refutes co-equality status. He acknowledged One greater than He. Some argue that Yahushua only referred to The Father as being greater than Himself for the 33.5 years while He walked the earth, yet even when Jesus was ascended into the Heavenly sphere, He deferred to His Father as “My Elohim[Eloah]/God.” See above: Revelation 3:12.

    In Ecclesiastes 12:1, we read, “Remember now, your Creators in the day’s of your youth…..” In Hebrew, scripture reads, “Et borecha. Literally: “your Creators.” A reference to the plurality of divinity. Also, the alef taf, or et (in the actual Hebrew) before “Creators” is a direct object pointer, indicating that the Creators are alef taf.” Footnote 2. “The first and last letters of the Hebrew alphabet, and used to describe Father YHWH and YHWH Yahushua.” (Glossary). Restoration Scriptures True Name Study Bible. The trinitarian influenced King James bible refers only to the “Creator,” yet does leave in, in Genesis 1:26, “Let us make man in Our image, after Our likeness,” the Our denoting plurality.

    “I am the true Vine and my father is the Husbundman .” John 15:1. KJV. “I am the Vine of Truth and my Father is the Cultivator.” Aramaic English New Testament-Andrew Gabriel Roth.

    A Brother in Christ,

    Kenneth Jelladian

    • Barbara LeFevre

      Hi Kenneth~

      I’m not going to get my response done today as planned. I’m very sorry about the delay, and I will have it posted tomorrow.

      I hope you have a blessed day!
      Barbara

      • http://www.capitaldynamicsre.com Kenneth Jelladian

        Barbara: OK, thank you for letting me know. So please consider that there is no deadline, no rush, only Divine Timing, to allow you to give your best. Kenneth.

        • Barbara LeFevre

          Kenneth~

          Thank you very much for your kind and wise words. You are right about “Divine Timing” because, apparently, I wasn’t supposed to finish my response as we both first expected. As I usually do, I prayed before I began, and I sat down and wrote, but I couldn’t focus and my thoughts were disjointed. I spent a great deal of time throughout the day trying to write a thorough and cohesive response, but it just didn’t happen. When I got up this morning, I prayed again because I want to do justice to your concerns, and I couldn’t understand why I was having problems. Then it dawned on me that I’m sick. Yesterday it was just that thing in which you can’t put your finger on it, but you just don’t feel on top of it but don’t realize that maybe you’re getting sick. Anyway, I am going to have to impose on your graciousness once more and redeem the “no deadline, no rush” coupon that you offered! Hopefully, this will pass quickly so that I can have something to you by Monday, but if I can’t, I will let you know.

          Thank you again, and I pray that you will have a blessed weekend in the Lord!
          Barbara

          • http://www.capitaldynamicsre.com Kenneth Jelladian

            Barbara, “and with His stripes, we [YOU] are HEALED!!!” Amen. Ken.

          • Barbara LeFevre

            Kenneth

            Thank you for this verse. I know a healing is on the way, but it doesn’t look like it’s today. I have the flu. I’m about half way done with my response to you, so hopefully I will be able to get it done by tomorrow sometime.

            Yours in Christ~
            Barbara

    • Barbara LeFevre

      Kenneth,

      First, I just want to again thank you for your graciousness in waiting for me to be able to finish this response. God’s timing IS perfect and subjecting myself to it did bring peace.

      One thing we must both bear in mind and that is that we both must base our interpretations and conclusions on the entire counsel of God (II Tim. 3:16), not on isolated verses. I only say this because far too often I’ve engaged in dialogues with believers who don’t, and this can only lead to false doctrine. I also want to say that I have no problem whatsoever being wrong. What I do have a problem with is being told I’m wrong without addressing the specific verses and explanations that I have given. That said, I am grateful to begin this dialogue with you, and it is my prayer that each of us will allow the Holy Spirit to guide us into all truth (Jn. 16:13).

      Your concern is that you don’t believe that the verses that you have cited support the definition of Trinity that you used from Wikipedia, which is the correct definition. In your first response to me, you said that you had read my entire post, so I assume that you also studied the article by Robert Bowman, Jr. that I mentioned. Having such a valuable resource at our fingertips certainly saves time, and I believe that his outline provides irrefutable evidence in support of the Trinity. Therefore, I see no need to provide an excessive amount of Scripture here when it is so readily available through BLB commentaries, and as I have studied these verses, there is just no way, unless one either totally disproves or totally ignores each example given that it can biblically supported that there is not a Triune God, so my question is, were you able to prove each example false?

      Even if we narrow the examination to Jesus, are you prepared to say that Jesus isn’t God? (Note: The ‘Father’ title is different, and I will address that later). If Jesus isn’t God, then we run into a whole lot of problems, including the facts that the Father erred when sending Him as the perfect sacrifice for our sins (Jn. 3:16), that He wrongly accepted worship as God (Jn. 9:38), that He forgave sins which is God’s pejorative alone (Lk. 5:20), that He never denied the Pharisees statement about making Himself God (Jn. 10:33) or Thomas’ declaration that He is God (Jn. 20:28), that He couldn’t have been eternal (Rom. 1:20), that He doesn’t contain the fullness of the Godhead bodily (Col. 2:9), and that He blasphemed God by claiming the titles of Alpha and Omega, Lord, and Almighty (Rev. 1:8) for Himself. Clearly, then, Jesus is God, so here’s the next dilemma. We know from many verses, including Deuteronomy 6:4, that there is only one God, and, yet, we also know that Jesus is God, so what are our doctrinal options here? Well, there are only two. Either there is more than one God, a direct contradiction to many verses, including Deuteronomy 6:4, or else there is a real possibility that there is at least the hint of a Triune God. You brought up the Hebrew word “echad,” and it is this exact word that is used in Deuteronomy 6:4, denoting unity, not numerical oneness, so this is something else to consider. In fact, in one article I read, numerical oneness is never used in reference to God. I understand that you have concerns that need to be addressed, but based upon these truths, which cannot contradict your verses by the way, which of these possibilities can you honestly say is the most biblically reasonable?

      I would also like to address your comment that, “If Yahushua was The Father, as the trinity supposes,…” because I think that many of your other concerns are directly linked to this misconception. I am confused about something here. The definition of the Trinity that you cited from Wikipedia is exactly the biblical view of the Trinity, that the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit are three distinct entities, each God within themselves but who comprise the one God of Scripture. However, that definition very much contradicts your statement here, in which you say that the “trinity supposes” that “Yahushua WAS the Father” (caps mine) because it clearly says otherwise. What you have described is actually the doctrine of modalism as taught in Oneness Pentecostalism in which one entity manifests himself sometimes as the Father, sometimes as the Son, with the Holy Spirit emanating from each of them, which is also the J.W. view, that the Holy Spirit is God’s “active force.” Now, in Isaiah 9:6, Jesus is called the “everlasting Father,” but this is not in reference to His position in the Trinity because He is clearly referred to the “Son” throughout the NT. You can do study on this, but, briefly, according to Strong’s (H1), ‘ab means that the term “Father is applied to bringer up, nourisher, as bestowing his benefits like a parent…Is. 9:5, the Messiah is called… ‘eternal Father”’(of the people).” In other words, it has to do with Jesus being the Creator (Deut. 32:6, Col. 1:6) and all that is included in that, that He is the Father of eternity, God, and one with the Father. I think this clarification will answer many of your concerns.

      I think many of your other concerns can be explained by understanding exactly why Jesus came to Earth. Although not a comprehensive list, we know that He came to teach, to show us the Father, to die for our sins, and to model a life in total subjection to the Father, and it is this last reason by which we can understand verses such as John 14:28. He is not speaking from His eternal “equal” position in the Trinity but from an earthly position of submission to God as a man, just exactly what we are expected to do. Think about it. How could God truly judge us and truly empathize with us if He, Himself, had never suffered the real trials and temptations of mortal life that we all do? This is the exact truth being put forth in Hebrews 4:15 which says, “For we do not have a High Priest who cannot sympathize with our weaknesses, but was in all points tempted as we are, yet without sin” (NKJV). There is so much we can learn from Jesus’ place in God’s plan of salvation. Scriptures such as John 14:28 can be better understood by grasping one great truth: Jesus humbled Himself and became a man, and He lived His life without sin and in TOTAL submission to the Father, not availing Himself of the divine rank and privilege which was His due as God. He was born as a man, lived as a man, and died as a man, so that no man could ever call into question His rightful ability to extend peace and grace as well as His rightful place to judge. He can empathize because He suffered, and He can judge because He was tempted. John 5:19-20 is another example of Christ’s submission to the Father: “Then answered Jesus and said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, The Son can do nothing of himself, but what he seeth the Father do: for what things soever he doeth, these also doeth the Son likewise. For the Father loveth the Son, and sheweth him all things that himself doeth: and he will shew him greater works than these, that ye may marvel.” It’s the phrase “The son can do nothing of himself” that is of importance. It’s not that the Son cannot literally do anything of himself; He’s the Sovereign Creator for heaven’s sake, meaning He can do EVERYTHING by himself, even raise Himself from the dead (Jn. 10:18) although He even submits this to the Father. This idea of total submission isn’t taught within the body of Christ as it should be, and there are consequences for not living our lives in that submission. Romans 14:11, I Corinthians 15:25, and Philippians 2:10, for example, say that all things will be brought into subjection to Jesus Christ so that what is in subjection to Jesus Christ will, in turn, be put into subjection to the Father (Col. 1:20, I Cor 15:27-28), and all else will perish. By perfectly modeling subjection to the Father, He is showing us how we are to live our lives so that we will truly be in Christ when He turns all things over to the Father.

      I believe that the verses and explanations that you have given regarding the unity between the Father and the Son can also be explained through the explanations I have given. I am, as I alluded to, a little confused as to the points you are trying to make because you have brought up two vastly different views of God, trinitarianism and modalism, to put forth your questions. In other words, your concerns that you don’t believe that the verses that you have cited support the definition of the Trinity is because your explanations are coming from a modalistic viewpoint. I hope that I have clarified them enough for you to study other verses within the proper framework. If I haven’t answered your questions clearly enough, please let me know.

      Yours in Christ~
      Barbara

  • Bob Demyanovich

    Rom 7:18 For I know that in me (that is, in my flesh,) dwelleth no good thing: for to will is present with me; but [how] to perform that which is good I find not.
    2Cr 8:11 Now therefore perform the doing [of it]; that as [there was] a readiness to will, so [there may be] a performance also out of that which ye have.
    Phl 2:13 For it is God which worketh in you both to will and to do of [his] good pleasure.

    Life is a becoming. Every birth gifts opportunity in the physically oriented child for a time, a lifetime. Maturing is merely evident in the physical process, expansive for the mental process but fulfilling creation in the spirit. Human being is the creation process.
    Coming into being is not for this world. The cost to produce a being, the costs of awareness participate in the wonder obscured by our preoccupation. Each human is a creation prepared for everlasting life. This world is the creation factory. Every person is a creation of God enlivened with potential and loved of God.

    Rev 1:18 I [am] he that liveth, and was dead; and, behold, I am alive for evermore, Amen; and have the keys of hell and of death.

    1Jo 4:7 Beloved, let us love one another: for love is of God; and every one that loveth is born of God, and knoweth God.
    Mar 10:18 And Jesus said unto him, Why callest thou me good? [there is] none good but one, [that is], God. And Matt 19:17, Luke 18:19

    Jhn 14:10 Believest thou not that I am in the Father, and the Father in me? the words that I speak unto you I speak not of myself: but the Father that dwelleth in me, he doeth the works.
    2Cr 5:18 And all things [are] of God, who hath reconciled us to himself by Jesus Christ, and hath given to us the ministry of reconciliation;
    2Cr 5:19 To wit, that God was in Christ, reconciling the world unto himself, not imputing their trespasses unto them; and hath committed unto us the word of reconciliation.

    Adam and Eve departed from God, His Word, His purpose when they became aware of “me” and left the image of God. Creation is fulfilling the Word of God. All the rest is chaff. We are to be the image of God.

    1Cr 12:6 And there are diversities of operations, but it is the same God which worketh all in all.
    1Cr 15:28 And when all things shall be subdued unto him, then shall the Son also himself be subject unto him that put all things under him, that God may be all in all.
    Eph 1:23 Which is his body, the fulness of him that filleth all in all.
    Mat 5:43 Ye have heard that it hath been said, Thou shalt love thy neighbour, and hate thine enemy.
    Mat 5:44 But I say unto you, Love your enemies, bless them that curse you, do good to them that hate you, and pray for them which despitefully use you, and persecute you;
    Mat 5:45 That ye may be the children of your Father which is in heaven: for he maketh his sun to rise on the evil and on the good, and sendeth rain on the just and on the unjust.
    Mat 5:46 For if ye love them which love you, what reward have ye? do not even the publicans the same?
    Mat 5:47 And if ye salute your brethren only, what do ye more [than others]? do not even the publicans so?
    Mat 5:48 Be ye therefore perfect, even as your Father which is in heaven is perfect.
    Rev 21:23 And the city had no need of the sun, neither of the moon, to shine in it: for the glory of God did lighten it, and the Lamb [is] the light thereof.

  • Joanne

    Jesus clearly taught that God is One (Mark 12:29). But Jesus never taught anyone that God is “three who’s in one what”. Nor did his apostles. Nor did the early church. In fact, for the first two hundred years of the church – about the length of time America has been in existence – the concept of the trinity wasn’t around. When it was introduced by Tertullian, it underwent another several hundred years of evolution before becoming the doctrine that it is today. It is worth noting that many of the significant contributors to the doctrine of the trinity (such as Origen and Tertullian) would be considered heretics by the final version of the creeds.

  • Linda

    The law was given that we might know our sin. The Son was given that we might know redemption for our sin and as an example of how we are to live before God. Jesus subjected Himself and obeyed God and lived His life to show us how we are to love God and love others. The Spirit is the one who shows us the truth, and leads us, Comforts us and helps us to see our need for repentance. Jesus was crucified because He claimed to be God, according to the Jews. He worked the works of God in healing the sick, He fulfilled prophesy, and will one day come again. Why is it so hard to see that the Father is the one God who brings unity through reconciliation by the Son and fellowship through the Spirit? The only way we can be one with the Father is through faith in Jesus Christ the Lamb of God. We should not be causing a division, my brothers, but focus on Gods great love and provision for us. Jesus was given a body to show us the way, the truth and the life.
    Php 2:3 Let nothing be done through selfish ambition or conceit, but in lowliness of mind let each esteem others better than himself.
    Php 2:4 Let each of you look out not only for his own interests, but also for the interests of others.
    Php 2:5 Let this mind be in you which was also in Christ Jesus,
    Php 2:6 who, being in the form of God, did not consider it robbery to be equal with God,
    Php 2:7 but made Himself of no reputation, taking the form of a bondservant, and coming in the likeness of men.
    Php 2:8 And being found in appearance as a man, He humbled Himself and became obedient to the point of death, even the death of the cross.
    Php 2:9 Therefore God also has highly exalted Him and given Him the name which is above every name,
    Php 2:10 that at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, of those in heaven, and of those on earth, and of those under the earth,
    Php 2:11 and that every tongue should confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father.

  • SteveB

    wow…. in looking at these posts, one thing is abundantly clear to me…. we simply will not know until each of us dies, and goes home to be with Jesus, God the Father, and the Holy Spirit.

    Something just dawned on me.
    Each of us are sealed by the Holy Spirit, right? 2 Cor. 1:22, Ephesians 1:13, & Eph 4:30.
    Then, each of us who follow Jesus have been given a down payment, or a guarantee of the Holy Spirit, right? 2 Cor 1:22, 5:5, and Eph. 1:14.

    Moreover, in John 14:15-31, and again in 16:13-15, we read that Jesus will “give us another comforter” who will teach us all things, and bring all things that Jesus himself had taught us.
    Something else I see in John 14, is that if we do Jesus’ commandments, and love him, He AND the Father will come and make their home with us. And he does not say that it’ll be done through the Holy Spirit.

    In Matthew 12, we read that people can slander God, and Jesus, and be forgiven, but not the Holy Spirit. I’ve long wondered why, and a number of years ago it dawned on me that the Holy Spirit is the one who regenerates, seals, and guarantees us. I.e., He is the one who must live in our hearts, and do the work of redepemption in and through us.
    Make Him overly irate, and he says– fine, have it your way. You don’t want it, you don’t get it. And yes, that is very over-simplified, but true nonetheless.

    We then read that No man can call Jesus Lord, except by God’s Spirit. And that no one speaking by God’s Spirit, calls Jesus- accursed. 1 Cor 12:3.

    We further read that the Spirit of Prophecy is the testimony of Jesus, and that the gift of Prophecy, is a Gift of the Holy Spirit. Rev. 19:10.

    Moreover, we read in Ezekiel 36:25-27, specifically 27, that God will place his Spirit in us, and “cause” us to walk after his commandments, and do them.

    So, based on these, it’s clear to me that the Holy Spirit has a unique, individual position, as sealing/guaranteeing all who will repent, and believe Jesus, to the Father, and in turn performing the work of changing our hearts to be made into the image of Jesus.
    It’s further clear to me, that without the Holy Spirit, no matter how hard we try to live the life of Christ– it’s impossible to do so. Jesus said without me, you can do nothing, upon speaking of fruit, in John 15. Of which fruit, Paul elaborates in Galatians 5:22-25.

    So, to me, anyway, it’s clear that the Holy Spirit has a very specific job.
    1- Convict the world of Sin.
    2- Convict the world of Righteousness.
    3- Convict the world of judgment. John 16:7-11.

    He seals the believer/follower of Jesus.
    He “causes” us “to do” the commandments. Ezek. 36:27.

    Looks clear to me– no Holy Spirit, no chance of salvation from sin.
    Curiously, only God can free us from Sin.

  • http://www.aol.com Andybob

    My beloved brothers and sisters in the faith,

    With love in my heart for God’s people I say this:

    Jesus was only a man like you and I and God, our Father whose name is “Yahweh”, was in him doing the works, the miracles, etc. See John 14:10

    “Do you not believe that I am in the Father, and the Father in Me? The words that I speak to you I do not speak on My own authority; but the Father who dwells in Me does the works.”

    Yahweh is God and Jesus is a man and Jesus, the man, is our mediator between God and us. 1 Tim 2:5

    “For there is one God and one Mediator between God and men, the Man Christ Jesus,”

    Our “one” God and Father is a spirit, thee Holy Spirit ( a title not a name). John 4:24

    “God is a Spirit: and they that worship him must worship him in spirit and in truth.”

    God cannot die nor be tempted however Jesus did die on the cross and was buried and he was tempted 40 days in the wilderness.

    1 Tim 1:17, “Now to the King eternal, immortal, invisible, the only God, be honor and glory forever and ever. Amen. NIV” (Deut 33:27 …eternal God…KJV)

    James 1:13 “Let no one say when he is tempted, “I am tempted by God”; for God cannot be tempted by evil, nor does He Himself tempt anyone.”

    If one chooses to believe in the Trinity than their beliefs are contrary to the written word of God. God the Son (second person of the trinity) by definition cannot die, but a man can die and did.
    If one chooses to believe in a trinity then God the son cannot be tempted.

    It is quite simple God dwells in men just like He dwelt in Jesus Christ.

    See the difference in God and Jesus from these scriptures and understand that these are two different beings. The Supreme Being God, Yahweh and the human being, the man Jesus Christ:

    ……………….Attributes of God……………………………….
    Throughout the Bible we see many scriptures that describe God, who He is, His nature and things that He is not. I have found this to be the base or foundation for my belief and understanding of Him who I love with all my heart or should I say I am learning to love with ALL my heart.

    Here are some of His attributes with supporting scripture references:
    – God’s name is Yahweh or Jehovah (Exodus 3:14)
    – Yahweh/God is the creator (Gen 1:1, Isa 40:28, Isa 43:15, Jer 32:17)
    – God is love (agape) (1 John 4:8, 1 John 4:16)
    – God is eternal ( Deut 33:27, 1 Tim 1:17, Heb 9:14)
    – God is a spirit ( John 4:24, Heb 9:14) the holy (not unholy) spirit
    – God is all knowing or omniscient (Isa 40:28, Psalm 147:5, Mat 10:30)
    – God is everywhere present or omnipresent (Psalm 139:8, Jeremiah 23:23-24)
    – God is all powerful or omnipotent (Job 42:2, Luke 1:37, Jeremiah 32:17, 27)
    – God cannot be tempted (James 1:13)
    – God is not a man (Numbers 23:19, 1 Sam 15:29) however Jesus Christ is a man!
    – God is not a liar (Deut 32:4, Numbers 23:19, 1 Sam 15:29)
    – God is invisible (1 Tim 1:17)
    – God is immortal (1 Tim 1:17)
    As I mentioned these are but a few verses I have found to be very helpful for me to understand who God is. Can you come up with some more? It would helpful to me and others if you did.

    ******* Attributes of the man Jesus Christ *****************
    Now let’s take a look at who Jesus Christ is and some of his attributes. We, as Christians, can identify ourselves with him because he lived life on earth just like we do and went through many things like we do in our everyday lives but with one GREAT BIG exception, though tempted he never sinned (Heb 4:15), however we all have sinned (Romans 3:23).
    – Jesus had a beginning or he was born (Mat 1:16, Mat 2:1)
    – Jesus prayed to God (Mat 26:39, Mat 14:23, John 17:1-5, Rev 3:12)
    – Jesus had a body (Luke 23:52, Mark 15:23)
    – Jesus had a soul (Mat 26:38)
    – Jesus had a spirit (Mark 2:8, Luke 23:46)
    – Jesus was hungry and ate food (Mat 4:2, Mark 11:13, Mark 14:22)
    – Jesus sang songs (Mat 26:30, Mark 14:26)
    – Jesus did not know everything (Mark 13:32) God though knows everything
    – Jesus was a man (1 Tim 2:5, Mat 8:20) remember God is not a man
    – Jesus died (Mark 15:37-39, Luke 23:46) remember God cannot die
    – Jesus wept (John 11:35)
    – Jesus was tempted (Mark 1:13, Luke 4:2, Heb 4:15) remember God cannot be tempted
    – Jesus worshiped God (Heb 5:7) this is a man worshipping God not a one person of the trinity worshipping the other person of the trinity.
    – Jesus had his Father’s name (Jesus’ name mean Yahweh the Savior or Yahweh is Savior) (John 17:11)
    – Jesus is the first born of many brethren (Rom 8:29)
    – God, who dwelt in, or lived in Jesus Christ, did the miracles (John 14:10)

    One should not form a doctrine based on one scripture alone but rather one should take multiple scriptures that are easily understood to form ones belief and teaching and then take a look at and study the more difficult scriptures and interpret them in light of the clear and easily understood verses.

    The nature of God is very easy to understand when one chooses to let the scriptures interpret it for themselves.

    Yahweh, our God and Father, is an amazing Supreme Being who created all things and has always existed. He created Jesus Christ in the womb of Mary his mother. Jesus grew into a wonderful son that our Father loved very much and Jesus never yielded to temptation and sinned.

    God allowed him to take on the penalty of sin, which is death, for us. Then God caused Jesus’ soul and spirit to return to his body when God raised him from the dead.

    God then took Jesus up to heaven and exalted this wonderful man and gave him a name above every other name and to be over His kingdom to reign at His right hand forever.

    Much Agape love,
    Andybob

    • SteveB

      Agape to you as well Andy.
      PErhaps then you’d be so kind as to explain something to me.

      Please read Isaiah 43:10-11.
      Then, please read Titus, chapter 1, verses 3-4. Then please read Titus 2, verses 10, 13. Then please read Titus 3, verses 3, and 6.

      Afterwards, think about that for a while, and then–please– explain it to the rest of us.

      I have more too, so please don’t go away.

      • Dale

        May I step in also and help?

        1) In Isaiah Yahweh says he is the only savior. The Jews were looking to false gods to save them but Yahweh said he was the only savior and He still is

        2) But this does not negate that Jesus is also our savior for he worked with his heavenly father for the salvation of mankind (john 5:17; Matt 18:11). But still God is the ultimate savior for without God accepting Jesus sacrifice for our sins to forgive us we could not be saved. God accepted Jesus sacrifice for our sins and now we can be forgive of our sins.

        3) The verse can be translated either: “Our great God and savior, Christ Jesus” OR “the great God and our Savior Jesus Christ.” Whenever there are 2 possibilities, internal evidence must rule and the internal evidence of scriptures is that Jesus Christ is NOT God. No where is he called God or God the son and no one has called him that in the scriptures. Granville Sharp’s rule does not apply here and in fact many of the scholars disagree with the rigid application of his rule. There are exceptions to it, so it is no consistent.

        4) But this verse does show that Jesus is the savior too.

        5) I miss your point on Titus 3 for we see that both Yahweh Elohim and Jesus are our savior. God was working in and through the man Christ Jesus for the salvation of mankind.

        Jesus was also our savior. Jesus showed mankind how to live for God through His teaching (which came from God –John 3:34) and by his selfless example of giving his love and life to God in service each day. Jesus was also the sinless Lamb of God, worthy to take our place and die in our stead. God is a righteous and just and demands punishment for our sins. But Jesus was willing to take our place and die in our stead so that we can come to God and ask God to forgive us of our sins because of Christ’s sacrifice ( I john 1:9-10 – Context shows he is God; Mark 2:7). Jesus was willing to go to hell forever and ever in order that we could be saved (see my blogs on “What is the doctrine of the Trinity” as I explained it there. This was God’s will that Christ give his soul (matt 20:28 – Greek = soul). Jesus prayed not my will but thy will be done. Jesus sweat as it were great drops of blood and was in horrible agony making the decision to spend eternity in the lake of fire in order that we can be saved while he was in the garden of Gethsemane. He was not afraid of the torture on the cross but being separated from his heavenly father forever and ever. But God heard him in that which he feared and delivered him out of death (Heb 5:7) and has highly exalted him, placing Jesus at his right hand to rule over his entire creation. God counted his decision to die eternally in our stead as good enough! Now we can be forgive of our sins through our savior Jesus Christ and now we have access to the presence of God who also is our savior.

        6) I really don’t see any problem in the above verses as they harmonize perfectly. Are you saying that Jesus is Yahweh the savior? Most Trinitarians don’t believe that! Isaiah was referring to Yahweh (LORD-KJV), which most Trinitarians recognize as the Father to which Jesus said was his God (Matt 27:45; Luke 1:47 with Duet 6:4 and Mark 12:29, 32). If there is only one savior and Jesus is God, then Jesus is Yahweh Elohim, but this is false!

        The Jews, including Jesus, only knew of one God, Yahweh Elohim, and this same God was and is the savior of all men. This same God came unto His own in the person and body of Jesus Christ who God dwelt in and manifested Himself through. Jesus as man worked together with His heavenly father (Yahweh Elohim) for the salvation of mankind. So he was also the savior! None of the above verse imply Jesus is God or that Jesus is Yahweh Elohim or that God can’t use men also for the salvation of men.

        • http://www.aol.com Andybob

          Thanks Brother Dale!

          Hopefully SteveB has his answer now!

          AB

          • Steve B

            Actually Andy, No, it does not answer the statement at all.
            There’s only One Savior. YHVH is it.
            So, how can there now be two Saviors as Dale’s thread would elucidate?

      • http://www.aol.com Andybob

        SteveB,

        I am not quite sure what you want me to explain.

        I know Yahweh, the Almighty God is called our Savior Isaiah 43:10-11, and His son, Jesus Christ also has the title of being our savior because of his willingness to do our God’s will and become the lamb sacrifice in the Garden Matt 26:39-44. So God through the man Jesus Christ saves us by his act of obedience.

        If your saying that both God and Jesus are the savior then Jesus is God then your logic fails to follow through because we see in John 14:10 that is was the Father in Jesus doing the works. God does all kinds of things through men.

        We see God (Yahweh) as the Savior, the Healer, the Provider, the raiser of the dead, etc but he used men to work through. Here are some examples…

        God raising the dead through men examples:
        Elijah (God through Elijah) raising the widow’s dead son, 1 Kings 17:19-24
        Jesus (God through Jesus) raising Lazarus from the dead, John 11:1-44
        Peter (God through Peter) raises Tabitha from the dead, Acts 9:36-42

        God heals through men examples:
        Elisha (God through Elisha) heals Naaman, 2 Kings 4,
        Jesus (God through Jesus) heals the man’s withered hand Luke 6:8-10
        Peter (God through Peter) heals crippled beggar Acts 3:1-10

        Thanks for the question dear saint!
        Grace, peace and agape love be upon you and your loved ones in Jesus name, AMEN!

        AB

        • Steve B

          Andy,
          No, as a matter of fact, I am not saying there must be two saviors– that would be a contradiction of Isaiah 43:10-11. Especially in light of Malachi 3:6– God does not change, and in light of Hebrews 13:8- Jesus does not change.

          There can be only ONE Savior. I.e., they are both- NOT Savior, making two saviors (do a word search on BLB. I’ve done it– 36 instances, 12 in OT, and 24 in NT. God is mentioned as Savior more times than Jesus. But Jesus is definitely, and most concisely mentioned more times than is God.). As far as I’m concerned– this is one of those paradox issues that is going to make for arguments until we’re dead, or the kingdom comes– which ever happens first. At which point, I’m certain we’ll all have one of those really huge cosmic-scaled groans, when we come to the realization of– boy, did I not know!!!

          Or, for the old Highlander series lovers– There can be only One!

          Moreover, we read very plainly that in Colossians 1:16-19, Hebrews 1:2, John 1:1-3, that Jesus created all that exists.
          However, in Genesis 1:1, it states that God created all that exists. Indeed, all throughout the entirety of the OT, God created all that exists.

          Then, the Hebrews 1 passage raises another issue– why did the Father command the Angels to worship Jesus? Especially in light of the passage in Isaiah 48:11, where God says plainly– my glory, I will not give to another.

          We then have- Micah 5:2, that God’s Anointed the ruler of Israel, would be born in bethlehem, and his “goings forths” would be “of old, from everlasting.”
          The word used for Everlasting, in the Hebrew is the same as used in Psalm 90, by Moses– Olam– for God’s person having neither beginning of days, nor end of days. “From everlasting to everlasting, thou art God….”

          We then read in Ezekiel 34:11-31, that God himself will shepherd his own people. Jesus came along in John 10, and claimed to be the “Good Shepherd” we read of in Ezekiel.

          No, there is only One Savior. There is only One God.

          So, I suppose, that what I’m saying is that Isreal’s God, YHVH, is in fact- Jesus, pre-incarnation.
          Especially in light of Paul’s comments that God dwells in unapproachable light, in 1 Timothy 6:16.
          We then see numerous instances where God shows up to talk with Abraham, Joshua, various parties throughout the OT. We’ve long called those- preincarnation appearances.

          What did Jesus say– unless you believe that I AM, you shall die in your sins. John 8:24

          In looking at this further– because the NKJV, KJV, and other translations have the pronoun- He, in there- the same word is used only 3 times throughout the entire bible. John 8:21, and twice in 8:24.

          http://concordances.org/greek/apothaneisthe_599.htm

          What BLB translates as the phrase ([He] you shall die), is translated on that web page as you shall die. It’s not however including a different tense. It’s the same tense all 3 times. Apothaneisthe.

          The Jewish/Hebrew peoples did not believe in Jesus because he was a fast-talker. They believed him because he fulfilled the prophecies of the prophets, in front of their eyes. He did what Moses, sages, prophets, and wise men said he would do, as God’s Anointed.
          What does Jesus say, in quoting Psalm 40– in the volume of the book it is written of me– ….”You search the Scriptures, for in them you think you have eternal life; and these are they which testify of Me.” John 5:39.

          Here’s a book for you to read. It comes with high recommendations.
          It’s written by an Orthodox Jewish scholar, introduced (to me) on the radio, by interview, by Jews for Jesus’ new CEO (Joel died a few years ago).
          The author is- Daniel Boyarin. He’s an academic at Cal State Berkeley in the SF Bay Area. He discusses in detail the historical elements in place in 1st century CE Israel. These ideas we present– are in fact of Jewish origin. What we claim to hold as self-evident, do in fact exist in that period of Jewish/Israelite existence/thought. I.e., according to Dr. Boyarin, the idea of 2 distinct Persons which are both the same One God- YHVH, do in fact exist in what we call the old testament. It’s most definitely NOT of greek/pagan origin. I’d give page references, but I’m reading it on my windows phone’s Kindle App. The idea is introduced in chapter 1.
          As I said– this guy is an orthodox Jewish scholar. He’s not christian by any stretch of the word. I say this, because he gains nothing by defending a purely “christian” perspective. And the topic is discussed in the book.
          You can find it on Amazon, and his university web page is:
          http://nes.berkeley.edu/Web_Boyarin/BoyarinHomePage.html

          The book– The Jewish Gospels.

          Grace and Peace be with you.
          In Christ.

  • Bob

    Andybob, ..you had me until the this:

    “Jesus had a beginning”

    HE was, HE is, HE is to come!!

    YAH bless!

    • http://www.aol.com Andybob

      Jesus the man was born, right?

      How can he exist prior to being created in the womb of Mary by the the holy spirit of God?

      Think about it…

      God has always is existed not the man Jesus Christ, because there is no mention of Jesus’ existence until he was born but only prophecies fortelling of him coming and existing.

      Thanks for the feedback and God bless you!

      AB

      • http://blogs.blueletterbible.org/blb Jim Milligan

        The pre-existence of the Second Person of the Trinity is clearly stated in Scripture, and His incarnate name is clearly identified as Jesus. The Word was in the beginning…and the Word became flesh.

        (Jhn 1:1-3 NKJV) [1] In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. [2] He was in the beginning with God. [3] All things were made through Him, and without Him nothing was made that was made.

        [Jhn 1:14 NKJV] And the Word became flesh and dwelt among us, and we beheld His glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father, full of grace and truth.

        (Jhn 17:5 NKJV) “And now, O Father, glorify Me together with Yourself, with the glory which I had with You before the world was.

        (Mat 1:21) NKJV – “And she will bring forth a Son, and you shall call His name JESUS, for He will save His people from their sins.”

    • Dale

      (Mat 1:18 KJV) Now the birth of Jesus Christ was on this wise: When as his mother Mary was espoused to Joseph, before they came together, she was found with child of the Holy Ghost.

      The Greek for birth is GENNESIS {ghen’-nay-sis}, which means the beginnings of Jesus Christ. Jesus Christ could not exist before he was born. No one can exist before they existed. There was a time that Jesus did not exist except in the mind of God who knows the end form the beginning.

      (Heb 13:8 KJV) Jesus Christ the same yesterday, and today, and forever.

      “Yesterday” refers to the recent past when Jesus ministered. “Today” refers to the time Paul wrote the epistle to the Hebrews. “Forever” speaks of the future.

      • http://www.capitaldynamicsre.com Kenneth Jelladian

        Dale, you might find Isaiah 43:10 and the footnote regarding the pre-existence of Yahushua/Jesus, to be of interest. It reads, “You are My witnesses, says YHWH, and My Eved (Servant) whom I have chosen: that you may know and believe Me, and understand that I am He: before Me there was no El (Mighty One) formed, neither shall there be after Me.” “Isaiah 43:10 makes it abundantly clear that there was no El, or deity brought forth before, or after Father YHWH. Period. The creating of “a Yahushua would contradict this simple declaration. If that is true (and it is), that must mean that Yahushua always was “in” Father YHWH, since He could not be created after YHWH. The Hebrew here as always sheds great light. “Atem adai neum YHWH Ve Avdi asher bacaharti.” In Hebrew this means there are actually two witnessess who testify that YHWH is one, and that He has not formed a different El before, or after Him, thus ending the myth that Yahushua the Messiah is some sort of a created being like Michael the Archangel, which would mean YHWH formed Yahushua after YHWH already was, which would be a violation of this text. What YHWH is simply saying in the verse is the exciting reality that there are two witnesses to His “one compound unity” status. They are His eternal bride, the people of Yisrael, [which includes those who are Christ’s as inheritors of the Promise. See Galatians 3:29] and His chosen Suffering Servant Lamb, the Messiah Yahushua. Both testify to the fact that He is and always will be one.” Quoted from “Restoration Scriptures True Name Study Edition.”

        A Brother in Christ,

        Kenneth Jelladian

  • Dale

    God has revealed himself to the Patriarchs, Moses, the prophets, Jesus, and to Paul and none of them said Jesus was God or God the son.

    Trinitarians often make the big point that the doctrine of the Trinity is undiscoverable by reason but must be understood and received by Divine revelation. But is this the case of Scripture? I say no it is not.

    The question therefore is how God imparts revelation.
    God imparts revelation through knowledge and knowledge comes by clear words of scripture. The Word of God was written to impart knowledge and it imparts knowledge through clear understandable of the words of scripture

    (Rom 10:17 KJV) So then faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of God

    Hearing the Word of God imparts knowledge and understanding. We get knowledge from clear words of scripture and when it is enlightened by the Holy Spirit, we have understanding and wisdom.

    (Isa 1:18 KJV) Come now, and let us reason together, saith the LORD: though your sins be as scarlet, they shall be as white as snow; though they be red like crimson, they shall be as wool.
    God appealed to man to reason with him about how he would forgive their sins. God expects man to use his reason abilities to come to truth. We are to think and mediate on the clear Word of God and come to a judgment based on reason. This is how God imparts revelation.

    God said a man is blessed that mediates on His law day and night.

    (Psa 1:2 KJV) But his delight is in the law of the LORD; and in his law doth he meditate day and night.

    God want us to know his Word and think about his word so God can reveal truth and understanding to our heart, mind, and spirits.

    If God is going to give Divine revelation of the Trinity, then it will be by clear scriptures of the Word of God. God does not impart revelation that is outside of the scriptures or that contradicts the scriptures in any way. Many other faiths believe that their religion is accepted by faith through revelation alone such as Mormonism, Jehovah witnesses, and other religions. God will not reveal a so-called Holy Trinity to you apart from the clear teaching of the Word of God. If the Trinity is really true, then God will impart that knowledge as you mediate and come to a judgment through reasonings of the clear Word of God.

    But the Trinitarians do not have any clear scriptures to impart knowledge of the Trinity. They have to resort to ambiguous, controversial, hard to understand, unclear, enigmatic, and difficult passages to understand. In fact Trinitarian scholars admit the doctrine of the trinity is not clearly taught in the Bible but had to wait till the 4-5th centuries till the counsels of Nicaea and Chalcedon to formulate it into a doctrine.

    How is it that all the other doctrines of the Bible: salvation, being Born-Again, Water Baptism, Baptism in the Holy Spirit, Salvation by Grace, Communion, the Rapture, the Bride of Christ, and so forth are all clearly taught in the Word of God and are discoverable by reason but only the doctrine of the Trinity is not clearly taught nor discoverable by reason?
    God revealed himself in an unfolding revelation throughout the Old Testament in his prophets and patriarchs. God gave Moses a lesser revelation of himself that he was Ayah Asher Ayah (I am that I am), and through the OT patriarchs and prophets God continually gave different ones further revelation of different aspects of his being.

    But throughout these revelations, not one place do we ever see God revealing Himself as a Trinity or do we see a pre-incarnated Christ or a God the son

    God revealed himself to Paul and gave him many Divine revelations and yet not once did he reveal himself as a Trinity to Paul or show him that Jesus was God or God the son. In fact Paul said that God was one (Gal 3:20).

    (Gal 3:20 KJV) Now a mediator is not a mediator of one, but God is one

    Paul not only saw Christ (Acts 9) and received abundant revelations (2 Cor 12:7; 11:23; 15:3; Gal 1:12) but he was caught up to the third Heaven (2 Cor 12:2-4). Paul wrote most of the NT Epistles with clear words that we can reason with to form doctrine. You would think if anyone would know who Christ was would be the Apostle Paul. You would think that if anyone could expound on the doctrine of the Trinity it would be the Apostle Paul. But Paul said nothing concerning the doctrine of the Trinity and never called Jesus God.

    (Eph 3:3-6 KJV)
    3 How that by revelation he made known unto me the mystery; (as I wrote afore in few words,
    4 Whereby, when ye read, ye may understand my knowledge in the mystery of Christ)
    5 Which in other ages was not made known unto the sons of men, as it is now revealed unto his holy apostles and prophets by the Spirit;
    6 That the Gentiles should be fellowheirs, and of the same body, and partakers of his promise in Christ by the gospel:

    God made known unto Paul the mystery of Christ which he expounded upon in his Epistles. He also said that God has revealed this mystery. Paul said that you may know this mystery by reading his epistles so you may understand Paul’s knowledge of the mystery of Christ. This means reasoning with clear words of God from Paul’s writings and coming to a judgment.

    (Eph 3:9-12 KJV)
    9 And to make all men see what is the fellowship of the mystery, which from the beginning of the world hath been hid in God, who created all things by [Greek is through, not by] Jesus Christ:
    10 To the intent that now unto the principalities and powers in heavenly places might be known by the church the manifold wisdom of God,
    11 According to the eternal purpose which he purposed in Christ Jesus our Lord:
    12 In whom we have boldness and access with confidence by the faith of him.

    The mystery involves way more than just the Gentiles being included in salvation (Eph 3:6). The mystery involves God’s eternal purpose which He purposed in Jesus our Lord. That involves all the Graces we have in God because of what Jesus did for us on Calvary. It involves fellowshipping with Christ and becoming like Christ who became like God. It involves walking and living in the Spirit and getting to know God experientially in the Spirit like Christ did and falling in love with God, and Jesus , and with one another. It involves knowing Christ like Paul did (Phi 3:10-15)

    Yet Paul mentions nothing of a Trinity in all his Epistles nor teaches about the Trinity and yet he received many divine revelations of God to which he wrote clear words of scripture that God inspired for our knowledge and understanding.

    The Apostle James that was with Jesus during his ministry and was his half brother should know who Jesus was but he did not say Jesus was God or God the son. In fact he said God was one (James 2:19).

    See my blogs on “what is the doctrine of the Trinity” in which I prove from the Bible that Jesus was not God nor worshipped as God nor is there any Trinity! No one as of yet has been able to refute anything I said.

    • http://www.aol.com Andybob

      Amen! Brother Dale!

      Agape,
      Andybob

      • Shelly

        In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. He was with God in the beginning. Through him all things were made; without him nothing was made that has been made.(John 1:1-3)

        The Word made flesh is Jesus Christ. He was with God the Father in the beginning. The Son of God is God’s Son. Through him (Jesus) all things were made; without him (Jesus) nothing was made that has been made. He was with God the Father before the foundation of the world. The Son of God had fellowship with God the Father before the foundation of the world as this verse proves:

        And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth. (John 1:14)

        Jesus is the only begotten Son of God. We who are born again (born from above) are the sons (and daughters) of God born anew in the image of the Son of God, our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ. Thus, Jesus is the firstborn of many brethren.

        For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate [to be] conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren. (Romans 8:29)

        Whose image are you in? The image of Jesus Christ, the Son of God, or the image of the devil who is the god of this world?

        That ye may be blameless and harmless, the sons of God, without rebuke, in the midst of a crooked and perverse nation, among whom ye shine as lights in the world; Holding forth the word of life; that I may rejoice in the day of Christ, that I have not run in vain, neither laboured in vain. (Philippians 2:15-16)

        In whom the god of this world hath blinded the minds of them which believe not, lest the light of the glorious gospel of Christ, who is the image of God, should shine unto them. (2 Cor. 4:4)

        Therefore if any man [be] in Christ, [he is] a new creature: old things are passed away; behold, all things are become new. (2 Cor. 5:17)

        Ye call me Master and Lord: and ye say well; for [so] I am. (John 13:13)

        But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his. (Romans 8:9)

        We see from the above verse that the Spirit of God and the Spirit of Christ are one and the same Holy Spirit. When we are born again from above (by faith in the finished work of Christ on the cross on our behalf), the Holy Spirit comes to dwell in our spirit making us born anew in the image of Him (Jesus) who created us! Because God is Spirit, He can dwell in many ‘bodies’ at the same time! We who are born again are the temple of the Holy Spirit!

        Know ye not that ye are the temple of God, and [that] the Spirit of God dwelleth in you? (1 Cor. 3:16)

      • Barbara LeFevre

        Andybob~

        I’ve read your posts and have even exchanged opinions with you, and I am very surprised that you have been so easily taken in by Dale’s flimsy reasoning. The verse he cited, James 2:19, has nothing to do with James’ opinion on whether “Jesus was God or God the Son” or not. This is a great example of someone taking a biblical truth and wresting it from the whole counsel of God to develop false doctrine.

        Dale also wrote, “The Apostle James that was with Jesus during his ministry and was his half brother should know who Jesus was but he did not say Jesus was God or God the son.” Does this mean, then, that Dale and you believe that because James and the other apostles, in Mark 3:21, thought that Jesus was “beside himself” (out of his mind, insane) that He really was because that’s the logic Dale is using. In addition, that is a fallacy in argument. The absence of something doesn’t necessarily disprove its existence. In addition, all the apostles had doubts about one thing or another, including whether Jesus would be resurrected after being crucified. Does this mean, if we use only the ‘doubt’ verses, that Jesus wasn’t really resurrected? Obviously, it doesn’t because other verses prove that He was. Along that same line, we are to consider ALL relevant verses when formulating doctrine. That is exact point of II Timothy 3:16 because proof texting is the mother of heresy. Therefore, if we can find another biblical author that does say that Jesus is God, then we can know for sure that He is. Just one of these is John who gives the account of Thomas meeting Jesus after His resurrection in chapter 20. After Jesus invites Thomas to use his hands and fingers to touch His body (v. 27), and we know that he does because we read “And Thomas answered and said unto him, My Lord and my God” (v. 28). Unless one is a J.W. who falsely adds hand gestures to Thomas (and the Word of God) to rob Jesus of His deity, then there really is no other way to interpret what Thomas is saying and that is that Jesus is God.

        We need to stop all this nonsense and get real with what the Word is saying. Anyone who does not think that the beginning of the end is not here must be living in absolute biblical ignorance, and we know from many verses (e.g. II Tim. 4:3-4, II Pet. 2:1-2) that deception and heresy and damnable doctrines will accompany this time, and that they will come from inside the body of Christ and that those in the body WILL be led away.

        I John 4:1 says, “Beloved, believe not every spirit, but try the spirits whether they are of God: because many false prophets are gone out into the world.” We can only test the spirits by the Word of God. We need to study, pray, fast, and repent. Only then will we be able to rightly divide the Word and to live it.

        Please, Andybob and all others who are reading this, if you think that we are going to be excused by God for not knowing His Word because we didn’t study it or because someone told us something other than what the Word is truly saying, then we are sadly mistaken.

        My prayer is that each one of us will do as we have been commanded because, as we are told, man is without excuse (Rom. 1:20+), and God will not be mocked (Gal. 6:7-8) If God gave us His Word so that we would know the truth, then it stands to reason that we can know it, and if we can know it, then it stands to reason that we are accountable to it. Eternity is a long time to regret not knowing or acting upon what we have been told, beginning with “Let no man deceive you by any means: for [that day shall not come], except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition” (II Th. 2:3). Obviously, only believers can apostatize, or leave the truth, because they are the only ones in the truth. Therefore, we need to make sure that we learn the Word and live in the Word.

        Yours in Christ~
        Barbara

        • Barbara LeFevre

          Sorry. I have a couple of things to add to my post. I am certainly not implying that there isn’t anyone on this blog who isn’t putting forth the truth of the Word. Also, in my third paragraph, I inadvertently wrote that “those in the body WILL be led away,” which sounds like all of them will be, which isn’t what I meant; however, Paul did use the word “great,” so we know that the number will be large.

    • http://blogs.blueletterbible.org/blb Jim Milligan

      Isa 44:6 KJV – [6] Thus saith the LORD the King of Israel, and his redeemer the LORD of hosts; I am the first, and I am the last; and beside me there is no God.

      The prophet Isaiah speaks of two persons (has to be grammatically). Interestingly, enough BOTH persons are named YHWH (clearly shown in the Hebrew http://blb.sc/15Xk ).

      This is not the only instance of this within the O.T. Take the time to seek it out. But interestingly enough, Isa 44:6 corresponds with John 8:58 where Jesus attributes the existence of I AM to Himself. Note, the Jews didn’t pick up stones to execute Jesus just because He said I exist. They clearly knew that Jesus was claiming to be the I AM that existed at the burning bush.

      You may choose not to believe this, but to state that the prophets did not speak of this is incorrect.

      Also, to state that Trinitarians are doing this by some Divine revelation apart from Scripture seems disingenuous. It ignores the history of the Christian church where these things were struggled with in councils (Council of Nicea and Chalcedon) and the creeds that came from such based upon analysis of the Scripture as a whole.

      In addition, previously in the meta Barbara referred to the study of Robert Bowman (see http://blb.sc/0000Eu ) that is a pretty substantial analysis of Holy Scripture on the subject. To imply that Trinitarians ignore Scripture for newly received revelation is just not true.

      Finally, some research into the Granville Sharp’s Rule of Greek Exegesis would allow you to see that Paul consistently in the original Greek equated God the Father and God the Son as being of the same essence.

      • Dale

        1. (Isa 44:6 KJV) Thus saith the LORD the King of Israel, and his redeemer the LORD of hosts; I am the first, and I am the last; and beside me there is no God.

        Yahweh is both the King of Israel and the redeemer of Israel. There is nothing in the Hebrew to suggest 2 people grammatically. To me this is a very wild stretch. The fact that he says Yahweh twice proves they are one in the same. The reason it is said this was is because this is a hebrewsim, a figure of speech. The second sentence lets us know for sure they are one and the same for Yahweh says I am the first, and I am the last; and besides me there is no God. So which one is talking, Yahweh the king or Yahweh the redeemer? Yahweh is both Israel’s king and redeemer and there is no other God beside him (no God the son or God the Holy Spirit). This is the sense of the Hebrew!

        2. In John 8:58 Yahweh (who dwelt in Christ and manifested himself in Christ) was speaking directly through Christ, giving credence to Jesus ministry to the unbelieving Jews. This is parallel to God speaking directly through Jesus in John 2:19 –KJV for Gal 1:1 says God raised him from the dead. God speaking directly through us in prophecy doesn’t make us God any more than it would make Jesus God.

        3. No prophet ever spoke of a Trinity or God the son or God the Holy Spirit or a preincarnated Christ. If so, show ones that CLEARLY says so!

        4. Trinitarian claim that they cannot understand the Trinity by reason so they rely on divine revelation. There is not one single verse in the entire Bible that clearly says God is three or that says there is a Trinity or that says God the son or God the Holy Spirit. In fact the Bible says these exact words: God is one” (Mk 12:29; 2:32; Rom 3:30; James 2:19; Gal 3:20). Nowhere does it say these exact words: “God is three.” If the Bible says God is one and no where says God is three, then you can be sure God is one and not three and all the ambiguous scriptures that you use to interpret a trinity must be interpreted in the light of these clear verses that clearly say GOD IS ONE. I interpret all the ambiguous scriptures in light of these clear scriptures that show God is one and that there is only one God and none other. If God was a real Trinity, he knows how to say it in the Bible but instead He clearly said He was ONE. This should end all confusion! Furthermore, there is nothing in the Hebrew or Greek to indicate a “united one.” This argument shows dishonesty and ignorance of the Hebrew and Greek. When God says he is ONE, He means HE is ONE, not three! See also Isa 43:10-12 which clearly shows Yahweh ids Elohim and Yahweh is the ONLY God. Isa 44:6-8 shows there is NO god beside Yahweh and He alone made the heavens and earth. What can be clearer than that?

        5. A study of the Granville Sharp’s rule will indicate it is not consistent and does not always work and many of the scholars agree to this. There is not one single place where the Apostle Paul equated God the father and a so-called God the son as being of the same essence. I have studied this out and found the rule is inconsistent and does not work in many places. He made an observation that seems to work in some places but there are many places where it does not hold true at all.

        6. One has to be open like the Bereans who search the Word of God to see if these things were true. If you are unwilling, it is impossible for you to come into truth. You have already made up your mind which is true and no one can tell you different, so it is really a waste of time. You will come up with endless arguments that make no sense to why God is not one and that there is a so-called trinity. I have quite well proven that Jesus was not worship as God and there is no Trinity in the article “What is the doctrine of the Trinity” that the truly willing will see is according to the Word of God. No one has been able to refute anything I said.

        7. The Nicene and Chalcedon creed makes it clear that all 3 person are fully God by themselves and totally equal. Therefore God the father plus God the son plus God the Holy Spirit = 3 gods! That is simple math and logic. But that is polytheism, so we’ll say they are one, which is unreasonable and illogical. How can they be 3 and yet be one; that defies reason. You can’t reason it out, brother, you understand it by divine revelation! Nonsense! God gave us a brain to reason with and if each are fully god by themselves, you have 3 gods!

        • Dale

          One finial point about Granville Sharps’ rule. He was a devoted Trinitarian that tried to use his rule to prove a so-called Trinity but the rule did not hold true in many cases, which is also admitted by Trinitarian scholars.

    • Barbara LeFevre

      Dale~

      You wrote, “Trinitarians often make the big point that the doctrine of the Trinity is undiscoverable by reason but must be understood and received by Divine revelation.” Can you give any source to back this statement up? I’ve been saved for almost 20 years, have attended several Christian denominations, have read many Christian books and articles on apologetics, and have listened to Christian radio, and I have never heard, even once, what you are claiming. What we do believe and do teach is that the doctrine of the Trinity is very much documented throughout the Bible, and as I have written in earlier posts, the BLB commentaries’ link has an excellent source about the biblical support for the Trinity. It is an outline written by Robert Bowman, Jr., which illustrates that everything you believe is wrong. In addition, the comment in your last paragraph that “Jesus was not God nor worshipped as God” is both blasphemy and heresy. The only way you could “disprove” anything that you claim is if you use the same proof texting and reasoning as Jehovah’s Witnesses and Pentecostal Oneness people do.

      We are given a warning in II Peter 2:1, which says, “But there were false prophets also among the people, even as there shall be false teachers among you, who privily shall bring in damnable heresies, even denying the Lord that bought them, and bring upon themselves swift destruction.” Claiming that Jesus is not God is very much “denying the Lord that bought [you]” for the simple reason that only someone who is sinless could have been the sacrifice to pay for mankind’s sins. As even a casual reading of the OT proves, God only accepted a perfect animal sacrifice for the people’s sins. This leaves you with the following scenario to consider. If Jesus isn’t God, then He was a man, and if He was a man, He couldn’t have been perfect but a sinner like us, not only in need of a Savior but biblically unacceptable as the sacrifice to God the Father for man’s sins.

      As someone who came out of Mormonism, I vowed that no one was ever going to deceive me again, so I took God at His Word: “Howbeit when he, the Spirit of truth, is come, he will guide you into all truth: for he shall not speak of himself; but whatsoever he shall hear, [that] shall he speak: and he will shew you things to come” (Jn. 16:13). This only comes, however, when one follows the advice in Matthew 6:33a: “But seek ye first the kingdom of God, and his righteousness.” I don’t know who you are, so I don’t know if you are just deceived or if you are a deceiver, but what I do know is what you are teaching is biblically unsound and just horrifying, not only for yourself but for others who don’t “Study to shew thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth” (II Tim. 2:15). I pray that you will repent and allow the Word of God, ALL of it (II Tim. 3:16), to be the foundation of your beliefs.

      Barbara

      • http://blogs.blueletterbible Beth

        Barbara,I totally agree with you!!

  • steve morrow

    Lord does it matter who you use to deliver the FATHERS message
    is it not truth just the same

    Hebrews 1:7-9
    And of the angels HE saith WHO MAKETH HIS ANGELS SPIRITS AND HIS MINISTERS A FLAME OF FIRE

    (8)BUT UNTO THE SON HE SAITH THY THRONE O GOD IS FOR EVER AND EVER
    A SCEPTER OF RIGHTEOUSNESS IS THE SCEPTER OF THY KINGDOM

    (9) THOU HAST LOVED RIGHTEOUSNESS AND HATED INIQUITY THEREFORE
    GOD EVEN THY GOD HATH ANNOINTED THEE WITH THE OIL OF GLADNESS ABOVE THY FELLOWS

    Deuteronomy 18:18
    I will raise them up a prophet from among their brethren like unto thee and will put MY words in HIS mouth and HE shall speak
    unto them all that I shall command HIM

    Isaiah 11:1&2
    And there shall come forth a rod out of the stem of Jesse and a BRANCH shall grow out of his roots

    (2)And the spirit—OF THE LORD—shall rest upon HIM
    The spirit of wisdom and understanding the spirit of counsel
    and might the spirit of knowledge and of the fear of the LORD

    Isaiah 30:1
    WOE to the rebellious children saith the LORD that take counsel
    —BUT NOT OF ME— and that cover with a covering but not of MY spirit that they may add sin to sin

    Isaiah 53:11
    HE shall see of the travail of HIS soul and shall be satisfied
    By HIS knowledge shall MY righteous servant justify many
    For HE shall bear their iniquities

    John 3:34
    For HE whom GOD hath sent speaketh the words of GOD
    for GOD giveth not the spirit by measure unto him

    John 6:63
    It is the spirit that quickeneth
    The flesh profiteth nothing
    —THE WORDS THAT I SPEAK UNTO YOU—
    —THEY ARE SPIRIT—
    —AND THEY ARE LIFE—

    Acts 3:22
    For Moses truly said unto the fathers
    A PROPHET SHALL THE LORD YOUR GOD RAISE UP UNTO YOU OF YOU BRETHREN LIKE UNTO ME HIM SHALL YOU HERE IN ALL THINGS WHATSOEVER HE SHALL SAY UNTO YOU

    Acts 2:23
    AND IT SHALL COME TO PASS —THAT EVERY SOUL—WHICH WILL NOT HEAR THAT PROPHET —SHALL BE DESTOYED FROM AMONG THE PEOPLE

    Acts 5:3
    But Peter said Ananias why hath satan filled thine heart to lie to the holy spirit and to keep back part of the price of the land

    Acts 5:9
    Then Peter said unto her how is it that you have agreed together to tempt the spirit of the lord behold the feet of them which have buried thy husband are at the door and shall carry thee out

    Romans 8:11
    But –IF– the spirit —OF HIM— that raised up JESUS from the dead shall also quicken your mortal bodies—BY HIS—
    spirit that dwelleth in you

    • steve morrow

      Luke 11:13
      If you then being evil know how to give good gifts unto your children HOW MUCH MORE shall your HEAVENLY FATHER give the holy spirit to them that ask HIM

      Acts 5:29 Then Peter and the other apostles answered and said we ought to obey GOD rather than men

      Acts 5:32 And we are HIS witnesses and so is the holy spirit whom GOD hath given to them that obey HIM

      1 Corinthians 10:3
      And did all eat the same spiritual meat

      1 Corinthians 10:4
      And did all drink the same spiritual drink for they drank of that spiritual rock that followed them and that rock was CHRIST

      John 6:54
      Whoso eateth MY flesh and drinketh MY blood hath eternal life and I will raise —him up—on the last day

      John 6:68
      Then Simon Peter answered HIM LORD to—WHOM—
      SHALL WE GO THOU HAST THE WORDS OF ETERNAL LIFE

      John 6:55 For MY flesh is meat indeed and MY blood is drink indeed

      1 Corinthians 15:45
      And so it is written the first man Adam was made a living soul the last ADAM was made a quickening spirit

      John 14:26
      But the comforter which is the holy spirit whom the FATHER will send in MY name HE shall teach you all things and bring all things to your remembrance
      whatsoever I have said unto you

      2 Corinthians 1:3&4
      Blessed be —GOD EVEN THE FATHER—OF— our LORD JESUS CHRIST the FATHER of all mercies —and the GOD of all comfort
      (4)Who comforteth us —IN ALL OUR TRIBULATION—
      That we may be able to comfort them which are in any trouble by the comfort wherewith we are comforted of GOD

      Galatians 6:7&8
      –BE NOT DECEIVED—GOD is not mocked
      For whatsoever a man soweth that shall he also reap
      (8) For he that soweth to his flesh shall of the flesh reap corruption
      But he that soweth to the spirit shall of the spirit
      reap life everlasting

      1 Peter 1:23
      Being born again not of corruptible seed but of incorruptible by the word of GOD which liveth and lasteth forever

      FATHER I COME TO YOU THROUGH YOUR SON JESUS CHRIST WITH A QUESTION DID YOU PUT ANY PERSON IN CHARGE OF YOU OR YOUR SON —–I ASK OF THEE IN YOUR SONS NAME

      1 Timothy 3:16
      And without controversy great is the —MYSTERY OF GODLINESS —–GOD WAS MANIFEST IN THE FLESH—
      —JUSTIFIED IN THE SPIRIT— seen of angels
      preached unto the gentiles believed on in the world received up into glory

      John 6:63
      It is the spirit that quickeneth
      the flesh profiteth nothing
      THE WORDS THAT I SPEAK
      THEY ARE SPIRIT
      AND THEY ARE LIFE

      1 Timothy 4:1&2
      Now the spirit speaketh expressly that in the latter times some shall depart from the faith giving heed to seducing spirits and doctrines of devils
      (2) Speaking lies in hypocrisy having their conscience seared with a hot iron

      1 Timothy 4:16
      Take heed unto thyself and unto the doctrine
      —CONTINUE IN THEM—for in doing this thou shalt both save thyself and them that hear thee

      1 Timothy 6:3&4
      —IF ANY— man teach otherwise and consent not not to wholesome words even the words of our LORD JESUS CHRIST—AND TO THE DOCTRINE WHICH IS ACCORDING TO GODLINESS (4)—HE IS PROUD KNOWING NOTHING………

      1 Timothy 2:5
      For there is ONE GOD AND ONE MEDIATOR BETWEEN GOD AND MEN THE MAN JESUS CHRIST

      • steve morrow

        1 Corinthians 11:3
        But I would have you know that
        THE HEAD OF EVERY MAN IS CHRIST
        AND THE HEAD OF THE WOMAN IS THE MAN
        AND THE HEAD OF CHRIST IS GOD

        1 Corinthians 15:27&28
        For HE hath —PUT ALL THINGS UNDER HIS FEET—
        But when HE saith all things are put under HIM it is manifest that HE is excepted which did put all things under HIM
        (28) And when all things shall be subdued unto HIM then shall the SON also himself be subject unto HIM that put all things under HIM
        THAT GOD MAY BE ALL IN ALL

        Proverbs 1:23
        Turn you at MY reproof behold I will pour out
        —MY SPIRIT— unto you
        I will make known MY words unto you

        2 Samuel 23:2&3
        The spirit of the LORD spake by me
        And his word was in my tongue
        (3)The GOD of Israel said
        The rock of Israel spake unto me
        He that ruleth over men must be just
        ruling in the fear of GOD

        2 Thessalonians 2:8
        And then shall that wicked be revealed
        whom the LORD shall consume with the
        —SPIRIT OF HIS MOUTH—
        and shall destroy with the brightness of HIS coming

        Ephesians 6:17
        And take the helmet of salvation and the sword of the spirit which is the word of GOD

        Revelation 2:16
        —REPENT— or else I will come unto thee quickly
        AND WILL FIGHT AGAINST THEM WITH
        —THE SWORD OF MY MOUTH—

        Genesis 1:2
        And the earth was without form and void
        and darkness was upon the face of the deep
        AND THE SPIRIT OF GOD MOVED UPON THE FACE OF THE WATERS

        Psalm 29:3
        THE VOICE OF —THE LORD IS UPON THE WATERS—
        THE GOD OF GLORY THUNDERETH
        THE LORD IS UPON MANY WATERS

        Psalm 77:19
        Thy —WAY— is in the sea and thy —PATH—
        IN THE GREAT WATERS and thy footsteps are not known

        Psalm 51:10
        Create in me a clean heart O GOD and renew a right spirit within me

        Ezekiel 36:25-27
        Then will I sprinkle clean water upon you and you shall be clean from all your filthiness and from all your idols will I cleanse you
        (26) And a new heart also will I give you and a new spirit will I put within you and I will take away the stony heart out of your flesh and will give you an heart of flesh
        (27) And I will put MY spirit within you and cause you to walk in MY statutes and you shall keep MY judgements and do them

        2 Corinthians 3:3
        Forasmuch as you are manifestly declared to be the epistle of CHRIST ministered by us written not with ink but with the spirit of the living GOD not with tables of stone but in fleshy tables of the heart

        John 6:56
        He that eateth MY flesh and drinketh MY blood
        —DWELLETH IN ME AND I IN HIM—

        Luke 22:20
        Likewise also the cup after supper saying
        THIS CUP IS— THE NEW TESTAMENT —IN MY BLOOD—
        WHICH IS SHED FOR YOU

        2 Corinthians 10:3-5
        For though we walk in the flesh we do not war after the flesh
        (4) For the weapons of our warfare are not carnal but mighty through GOD to the pulling down of strongholds
        (5)Casting down imaginations and—EVERY HIGH THING— that exalteth itself against the
        —KNOWLEDGE OF GOD—and bringing into captivity
        —EVERY THOUGHT TO THE OBEDIENCE OF CHRIST—

        Luke 8:21
        And HE answered them
        MY MOTHER AND MY BRETHREN ARE THESE WHICH HEAR THE WORD OF GOD AND DO IT

        1 John 3:10
        In this the children of GOD are manifest and the children of the devil
        WHOSOEVER DOETH NOT RIGHTEOUSNESS–IS NOT OF GOD–
        neither he that loveth not his brother

        Proverbs 8:8
        All the words of—MY MOUTH—are in righteousness
        there is nothing froward or perverse in them

        Hebrews 1:1&2
        GOD who at sundry times and in diverse manners spake in time past unto the fathers by the prophets
        (2)Hath in these last days —SPOKEN—UNTO US BY HIS SON—whom he hath appointed —HEIR OF ALL THINGS—BY WHOM ALSO HE MADE THE WORLDS

        LOVING GOD THE FATHER AND GOD THE SON AND THEIR WORDS BY WHICH WE ARE SAVED IF WE ABIDE IN THEM

        THANK YOU FATHER AND OUR LORD JESUS

  • http://blogs.blueletterbible.org/blb Jim Milligan

    It seems to me that many of the arguments presented against Trinitarianism always come down to some form of argument that Trinitarianism believes in three gods, i.e., that it does not affirm that God is One. But this just is NOT the case. Following would be a classical definition of the Trinity:

    “The Christian faith affirms that there is one and only one God, eternally existing while fully and simultaneously expressed in three Persons, the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit. Each member of the Godhead is equally God, each is eternally God, and each is fully God–not three gods but three Persons of the one Godhead. Each Person is equal in essence as each possesses fully the identically same and eternal divine nature, yet each is also an eternal and distinct personal expression of that one undivided divine nature.”[1]

    Here is how I would explain it to my daughter who is in the first grade, 1 x 1 x 1 = 1 NOT 1 + 1 + 1 = 1. Then to my eldest son, who is in the seventh grade, I could add the additional mathematical model of 1^3 = 1 (1 to the third power = 1). But a good rule of thumb for all of us would be not try to explain God by grade school mathematics. God reveals Himself in Scripture, and He says:

    “For My thoughts are not your thoughts, Nor are your ways My ways,” says the LORD. For as the heavens are higher than the earth, So are My ways higher than your ways, And My thoughts than your thoughts.” (Isa 55:8-9 NKJV)

    Many Christians think this means that God is as high as the Empire State Building is above the earth (meaning yeah it’s high but we can get to the top). Yet, NASA estimates the size of the universe to be at least 12 BILLION LIGHT YEARS in size (according to a 2009 estimate). Yet for some reason we still want to try to define God in our terms ( 1 + 1 + 1 = 1 ) rather than letting God tell us about Himself. And He also let’s us know, we are not going to understand the revelation in its fullest extent.

    Also, many of the issues here in the meta have been dealt with throughout history. Here is a recent one article by James White http://blb.sc/0000Ev, and Robert Bowman’s Scripture saturated outline http://blb.sc/0000AH.

    The councils of Nicea and Chalcedon affirm the Trinitarian doctrine and state that non-Trinitarianism is a heretical belief. We at Blue Letter Bible affirm Trinitarianism. And in the MOST EMPHATIC terms that Jesus Christ is God, and the Second Person of the Triune God.

    Notes:
    [1] Definition taken from class syllabus, “The Universal Reign of the Triune God,” Dr. Bruce A. Ware, Professor of Christian Theology, The Southern Baptist Theological Seminary, Louisville, KY.

  • Shelly

    Hold fast the form of sound words, which thou hast heard of me, in faith and love which is in Christ Jesus. That good thing which was committed unto thee keep by the Holy Ghost which dwelleth in us. (2 Timothy 1:13-14)

    All scripture [is] given by inspiration of God, and [is] profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness: That the man of God may be perfect, throughly furnished unto all good works. (2 Timothy 3:16-17)

    Sola Scriptura!

  • Dale

    JOHN 1:1 HAS NOTHING TO DO WITH JESUS

    John 1:1 KJV Greek = in the beginning was the logos, and the logos was toward the God, and the logos was God (no article) (each word has significance to the interpretation of this verse and would take many pages to explain). If God wanted the Word to mean Christ, he would have used the Greek word Christos but instead he used the Greek Word Logos. The logos does not mean Christ. The logos is a figure of speech, a device God use to help explain how and why he created everything. It represents both the inward thought and out expression of that thought. That is, God expressed himself by means of his logos and created the heavens and earth. Later God expressed himself again by means of his logos and brought forth Christ from the virgin Mary (v14). The Logos can’t be God for it is standing towards God like a servant ready to do his will. The Greek is not WITH God but TOWARD God (that is, facing towards God) and has very significant meaning.

    The logos was toward the God, showing the logos was not God and yet the logos contains qualities and attributes of God for it say the Logos was God (without the article), showing it is not identical to God but contains qualities and attributes of God. The meaning of logos is based on the analogy of man’s thinking and speaking process, but this is figurative, because God knows and doesn’t think. God is in relationship to the logos what a noun is in relationship to a verb. The logos is God’s will, decision, and the release of His energy coming forth for creation of the earth and the universe. John 1:1 has nothing to do with Jesus who was not yet born. Jesus is mention in verse 14.

    John 1:3 -4 -KJV
    3 All things were made by him; and without him was not anything made that was made.
    4 In him was life; and the life was the light of men. Since we are still talking about the logos (not Christ), the proper translation is all things were made through IT and without IT was not anything made that was made. In IT was life…(in the logos was life).

    John 1:18- KJV There is a variant reading here; either only begotten son or only begotten God. Internal evidence proves the Greek is only begotten son, not only begotten God.

    John 1:15 KJV = for he was before me. The Greek is for he was first of me, not before. The meaning must involve Jesus being first in relation to John the Baptist in the sense of preeminence. Emphasized Bible by Joseph Rotherham says: Because my chief was he.”

    John the Baptist said he was not even worthy to loosen the sandals of Jesus feet as a servant would do when you entered a house.

    • http://blogs.blueletterbible Beth

      Dale, Please explain john1:14 to me.

  • Teresa

    Seems to me that all of these comments prove beyond doubt point two of the original post: “MYSTERY. The triune God is totally unlike anything in our world, and therefore greater than anything we can comprehend.”

    It would be amusing, if not so sad to see how many deny the concept because they can’t fully understand it. In my opinion, if we can fully understand a Being such as God, then He would be no greater than we are. I’m grateful that He isn’t like us. Although the comments here are intriguing, they don’t move me from my belief in God’s triune nature. I see it’s evidence in Scripture, and that’s good enough for me. I accept that I can’t fully understand Him, and know that one day I will know Him as I am known.

    1Cr 13:12 For now we see in a mirror, dimly, but then face to face. Now I know in part, but then I shall know just as I also am known.

  • Julie B.

    God bless you all – I am so thankful we can discuss the scriptures together in love and passion because it is beautiful and important and crucial to us knowing our amazing God.

    I wholly agree that God is absolutely beyond our comprehension however, there is a topic that has come up that can’t be left in the realm of mystery, which is the paramount question, “Who was Jesus?”. Was He God and man, or just a man obedient to the God dwelling in Him? We can’t leave this question unanswered.

    Dale, When I read the 1st chapter of John it is clear to me that John is introducing Jesus to the reader. I believe that John is talking about Jesus when he says the word LOGOS because John makes the connection when he says “The word was God” and “the WORD became flesh and dwelt among us . . .” Jn 1:14. God is the word AND the word became flesh ie. God became flesh, as a man; the person Jesus Christ.

    John’s whole book/letter is about Jesus, who He was, and why He came. The beginning of the 1st chapter John explains where Jesus came from, who He is, and why we should listen to His message and follow His light. Jesus was with God in the beginning (jn1:1-1), and took part in creation (Jn 1:3), was prophesied to come in this manner (Jn 1:7-8), and ultimately was God (Jn 1:1), just to reference a few in this context.

    In the middle of the book/letter Jesus proclaims this himself “Jesus said to them, ‘Truly, truly, I say to you, before Abraham was born, I AM.'” -Jn 8:58 and the Jews tried to stone Him, I believe, because it was blasphemous for Jesus to say that He existed before Abraham, and to refer to Himself with the very common name for God “I AM” Ex 3:14, thus claiming to be God. John concludes his book/letter with who Jesus is and why we should believe in Him in Jn 20:31.

    So although we know in part and see in part now, we can know that scripture affirms that Jesus is God.

    • Dale

      As I already pointed out John 1:1 says in the beginning was the logos and the logos was TOWARD the God (pros tov theov) and the logos was God (without the article) (kai theos en ho logos). The Bible does NOT say “Christ” but “Logos.” If God wanted to say Christ he would have used the Greek word “Christos,” but he used the Greek word “logos” Logos does not mean Christ. John 1:1 does not say the logos was WITH God. That is a clear deliberate miss-translation by the KJV and other translations. The Greek clearly says the logos was (pross ton theon)TOWARD the God, which means facing God. How can the logos be God and at the same time be facing the God? It can’t, so whatever the logos is, it CANNOT be God. This is simple logic or reasoning that God expects everyone to use. Yet the logos is God without the article. In the Greek, lack of article show the logos is not identical to God but has attributes and characteristics of God. Since the logos is the mind, will, purpose, and expression of God, it is God in expression but not God in totality. The logos is in relationship to God as a noun is in relationship to a verb. The noun (God) expressed himself by means of his logos (the verb). You express yourself by your words but you are much more than your words. But people know you by what you express in words but your words are not the totality of you. God is way more than what he expresses himself by means of his logos, a figure of speech that God used to show how and why he created everything.

      John’ whole letter is about God dwelling and manifesting himself through Christ and that involves His logos. God expressed himself through Christ by means of his logos.

      (John 1:2 KJV) The same was in the beginning with God. The Greek is “IT (autos) was in the beginning toward (pros) God.” The Greek Bible does not say “with.”

      (John 1:3 KJV) All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made. The Greek Bible Says all things were made THROUGH IT (dia autos), not “by” him

      John 1:14 introduces Christ for Yahweh expressed himself again by means of his logos to bring forth Christ. God’s word (logos), which means His thought or desire in action, resulted in a sperm with the chromosomes and genes that God wanted, being placed in Mary, and this in turn, resulted in Christ, the only begotten of the Father. “Flesh” speaks if the human Christ, who was created by the will, decision, and energy (i.e., the logos) of God, not vice versa, with the logos being presumed to be Christ and then Christ presumed to be deity and that Deity presumed to become flesh.

      Trinitarians are assuming John is speaking of Christ in john 1:1-13 (because that is what they are taught) but the Greek says otherwise. Jesus wasn’t even born yet. Verse 14 introduces Christ where God expressed himself again by means of his logos and the result was that Christ was brought forth.

      I have explained this in the other blog “what is the doctrine of the trinity.” You cannot ignore what the Bible says in the Greek and just decide that John one is talking about Christ when the Greek clearly says logos and towards and through. You have to refute what I’m saying before you decide otherwise and so far, no one has attempted to refute what I said.

      I have already explained the meaning John 8:58. Jesus was not claiming to be God. God was expressing himself through Christ (the logos) by speaking directly through him like God does through saints who give forth a prophecy. This does not make them any more God than it did Jesus Christ. God was giving credence to Jesus’ ministry to the unbelieving Jewish leaders. He was saying that the same God of the OT, Ayah Asher Ayah (I AM that I AM) is the same God you are seeing dwelling in me and manifesting himself through me. If Jesus is claiming to be the great I AM, then he is claiming to be Yahweh, the Father, but even Trinitarians don’t believe that. You have to answer this clear contradiction and not ignore it (why Jesus is claiming to be Yahweh if he is saying he is the Great I AM).

      Trinitarians are constantly using ambiguous, enigmatic, unclear, difficult to understand verses to try to get a Trinity because they have no clear verses anywhere that teach a Trinity or say that Jesus is God the son or that says God the Holy Spirit. They use controversial scriptures (i.e. they are controversial in the sense that they can be interpreted another way then how Trinitarians interpret them. I have proved in the other blog that Jesus was not God nor worshipped as God and still no one has refuted me. You cannot just take what the KJV says but you have to dig deeper and look at the Greek, the context, parallel passages, Bible customs, figures of speech, the Hebrew, literal translations, and so forth. God raised up teachers for this to be placed over the church. You really need to take what they say and check it out for yourself like the Bereans and see if these things are really so.

      Have you checked out the Greek of John 1:1-13? Have you tried to determine the meaning of Logos by looking at other places where the word is used and checked out the Greek scholars? Have you studied the Greek prepositions and know what they mean and how to translate into English? Then how do you know that the logos is Christ? You have to dig more than what is on the surface if you what to discover truth.

    • Barbara LeFevre

      Amen, Julie! That is exactly what Scripture tell us.

  • David Barnett

    In learning about the Trinity we have to first establish the facts concerning the three parts of God.
    John 8:58 (NKJV)
    58 Jesus said to them, “Most assuredly, I say to you, before Abraham was, I AM.”
    Jesus declares Himself God in this scripture. Whether or not you believe it will not change the fact that He is God.
    John 1:1-5 (NKJV)
    1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
    2 He was in the beginning with God.
    3 All things were made through Him, and without Him nothing was made that was made.
    4 In Him was life, and the life was the light of men.
    5 And the light shines in the darkness, and the darkness did not comprehend it.
    John 1:14 (NKJV)
    14 And the Word became flesh and dwelt among us, and we beheld His glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father, full of grace and truth.
    Jesus very plainly declares that the Father is God.
    John 17:1-5 (NKJV)
    1 Jesus spoke these words, lifted up His eyes to heaven, and said: “Father, the hour has come. Glorify Your Son, that Your Son also may glorify You,
    2 as You have given Him authority over all flesh, that He should give eternal life to as many as You have given Him.
    3 And this is eternal life, that they may know You, the only true God, and Jesus Christ whom You have sent.
    4 I have glorified You on the earth. I have finished the work which You have given Me to do.
    5 And now, O Father, glorify Me together with Yourself, with the glory which I had with You before the world was.
    And the scriptures plainly point to the fact that the Holy Spirit is God.
    Acts 5:3-4 (NKJV)
    3 But Peter said, “Ananias, why has Satan filled your heart to lie to the Holy Spirit and keep back part of the price of the land for yourself?
    4 While it remained, was it not your own? And after it was sold, was it not in your own control? Why have you conceived this thing in your heart? You have not lied to men but to God.”
    Please see my other blog that explains the three parts of the person of God.

  • steve morrow

    John 8:43 Why do you not understand MY speech
    Even because you cannot hear MY word

    Psalm 119:104
    Through thy precepts I get understanding
    Therefore I hate every false way

    Psalm 119:63
    I am a companion of all them that fear thee
    and of them that keep thy precepts

    John 8:51
    Verily verily I say unto you
    —IF—a man keep MY saying —HE—SHALL NEVER SEE DEATH—

    John 14:18
    I will not leave you comfortless
    I will come to you

    John 16:12
    I have yet —MANY THINGS—to say unto you
    But you cannot bear them —NOW—

    Acts 22:14
    And he said the GOD of our fathers hath chosen thee
    THAT THOU SHOULDEST KNOW HIS WILL—AND SEE THAT JUST ONE—
    —AND SHOULDEST HEAR THE VOICE OF HIS MOUTH—

    Galatians 1:11&12
    But I certify unto you brethren that the gospel which was preached of me is —NOT OF MAN—
    (12)For I neither received it of man neither was I taught it
    —BUT BY THE REVELATION OF JESUS CHRIST—

    2 Timothy 2:2-5
    And the things that thou hast heard of me among many witnesses the same commit thou to faithful men who shall be able to teach others also
    (3) thou therefore endure hardness as a good soldier of CHRIST
    (4)no man that wareth entangleth himself with the affairs of this life that he may please HIM who hath chosen him to be a soldier
    (5) And if a man also strive for masteries
    yet is he not crowned except he strive lawfully

    Revelation 1:1
    The revelation of JESUS CHRIST which GOD gave unto HIM to show unto HIS servants things which must shortly come to pass and HE sent and signified it by HIS angel unto HIS servant John

    Revelation 1:3
    Blessed is he that —READETH—and they that hear the words of this prophecy—AND KEEP THOSE THINGS WHICH ARE WRITTEN THEREIN–
    for the time is at hand

    Revelation 19:10
    And I fell at his feet to worship him and he said unto me see thou do it not I am thy fellow servant and of thy brethren that have the testimony of JESUS worship GOD
    —FOR THE TESTIMONY OF JESUS—IS— THE SPIRIT OF PROPHECY—

    Revelation 12:17
    And the dragon was wroth with the woman
    and went to make war with the remnant of her seed
    —WHICH— KEEP THE COMMANDMENTS OF GOD
    AND HAVE THE TESTIMONY OF JESUS CHRIST

    Psalm 119:99
    I have more understanding than all my teachers
    For thy testimonies are my meditation

    Psalm 119:100
    I understand more than the ancients
    Because I keep thy precepts

    LOVING THE LORD JESUS

    • Dale

      I noticed that several just quote scriptures, and it is good that you can quote scriptures but can you expound upon them and tell what they mean? When readers read several quoted scriptures like the ones above, they have no idea of what your point is. What are you trying to say?

      Ezra read the law to the people in Nehemiah 8:8 and gave the sense of it. He explained what the law meant and how to interpret it.

      So they read in the book in the law of God distinctly, and gave the sense, and caused them to understand the reading. (Neh 8:8 KJV)

      For example you quoted:

      Galatians 1:11&12
      But I certify unto you brethren that the gospel which was preached of me is —NOT OF MAN—
      (12)For I neither received it of man neither was I taught it
      —BUT BY THE REVELATION OF JESUS CHRIST—

      But you did not explain your point, and I have no idea what you are trying to say. As I have already said Paul received many revelations from Jesus Christ because God has highly exalted Christ and given him a name above every other name. Jesus has been exalted to God’s right hand (Acts 2:33; 5:31; Phil 2:9) and now rules over God’s church (Rev chapters 2-3) but this does not make him God.

      What did Paul say concerning Jesus Christ after receiving so many revelations? He always made a distinction between God and Jesus Chris that he states in each Epistle:

      (Rom 1:7 KJV) To all that be in Rome, beloved of God, called to be saints: Grace to you and peace from God our Father, and the Lord Jesus Christ.

      See also 1 cor 1:3; 2 Cor 1:2; Gal 1:3; Eph 1:2; Phil 1:2; Col 1:2 and so forth)

      Why didn’t he say God our father and God the son? But he said God and then distinguishes Jesus Christ from God, meaning Jesus Christ was NOT GOD.

      Paul said Jesus was declared to be the son of God, not God the son

      (Rom 1:3-4 KJV)
      3 Concerning his Son Jesus Christ our Lord, which was made of the seed of David according to the flesh;
      4 And declared to be the SON OF GOD with power, according to the spirit of holiness, by the resurrection from the dead:

      Paul should know who God was and Jesus Christ but he said GOD IS ONE (Gal 3:20). Nowhere did Paul call God three!

      Paul said God was the father of our LJC.

      (Col 1:3 KJV) We give thanks to God and the Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, praying always for you,

      Jesus even said he had a God (Mark 15:34; John 20:17)

      And much more can be said to prove form the bible that Jesus was not God nor called God by anyone!

      • http://blueletterbible.org Larry “itisfinished” Jefferson

        Dale, For real dude?

        What were you smoking when you posted this insanity man?
        IF JESUS WAS NOT GOD, HE DESERVES AN OSCAR!

        P.S. I don’t see you doing any expounding on the verses you quoted here either, just sayin! Love you man. :)

  • Dale

    What were you smoking when you posted this insanity man?
    IF JESUS WAS NOT GOD, HE DESERVES AN OSCAR!

    I have not the slightest idea what you mean about this statement. I don’t smoke, and I have no idea who or what you are referring to this “insanity man.” What do you mean if Jesus was not God, he deserves in Oscar???

    Maybe you think that if he wasn’t God he couldn’t do the things he did. But if God gave him that authority and it was God the Father flowing through him, he could very well do everything he has done. Are you aware of how God has miraculously flowed though His healing ministers during past reveal times? God has done absolutely fantastic miracle healings through those with the gift of healings. There have been document healings of people with cancers, crippling diseases, broken bones, blindness and deathness (all healed by the power of God through the ministers God raised up during past revival times and will happen again when God pours out his latter Rain upon his church in United States after world government is set up). Did this make them God? God still speaks through men in the gifts of prophecy like he spoke directly to his people through his prophets in the OT or are you aware that God is still operating the gifts in various churches across America? When God spoke directly though His OT prophets did that make them God? When God did fantastic miracles through Samson, Elijah, Elisha, and others, did that make them God or was it God manifesting Himself through them?

    Today in foreign lands where there is persecution, there is miracles going on every day: deliverance from persecution and death, miraculous healings, miracles of provision for food and water, and even some raising form the dead! Does that make them God because God flowed through believes to raise somebody form the dead? God flowing in fantastic miracles through Christ did not make him God anymore than God flowing through man today and doing miracles. Maybe you don’t believe in miracles, but God is doing them today in the persecuted church. Persecution is coming in severity to United States

    YES, THIS IS REAL. God is moving in the persecuted church and doing miracles. YES, IT IS REAL, God the father did move miraculously in and through the man Christ Jesus as the scripture absolutely claim. Jesus was a full man with a human body, human soul, and human spirit that God the Father dwelt in him to the full and manifested himself through, doing the miracles like Jesus said. Jesus said it was the Father working in him and the one doing the works as I have already proven in my past posts in “what is the Trinity doctrine.” Did you read htem?

    Either you are being dishonest here or you are not reading my posts. I have expounded on almost every verse I have wrote. This is a very dishonest statement on your part, brother. I’m talking about brethren who just list scriptures and give no explanation. The readers reads that and he has no idea of their point. Are they speaking for Trinitarianism or oneness? What is their point? They list no point, so the scriptures they list can apply to Oneness as well as Trinitarians. You need to state your point (which I have done) with the verses you give!

    Thank you for your statement of love. I love all of God’s people and so desire that all come into the truth. That is why I have been quoting scripture to back up the explanations when I expound on the scriptures. I want people to see the marvelous truth that God is one and that we can become like God through our Lord Jesus Christ by becoming like him.

    May you come to know Yahweh and his son Jesus Christ in their fullness

    Dale

    • Larry “itisfinished” Jefferson

      Thanks Dale!

    • Dale

      CORRECTION: I want to give you the benefit of the doubt. I take back my statement you maybe being dishonest. I strongly believe I have expounded and /or given a clear point to almost every scripture I used so I honestly don’t know where you get this! If I stepped out of line, please forgive me as I did not intend to.

      Also I wish to add that Jesus said we shall do greater works than he has done (John 14:12) and that has happened to some degree throughout church history but will happen in a fuller measure up ahead during the upcoming Feast of Tabernacles and Latter rain. So when God manifest His power though us in greater ways than Jesus, will that make us God? I say no!
      In Christ agape
      BM

      • http://blueletterbible.org Larry “itisfinished” Jefferson

        Again, Thank you so much, you Sir are a genius!

  • steve morrow

    O MY LORD JESUS CAN WE EXPOUND/REASON ABOUT RIGHTEOUSNESS WITHOUT
    RIGHTEOUSNESS HELP US O LORD JESUS WE ASK THE FATHER IN YOUR NAME

    Acts 24:24
    And as he reasoned of righteousness temperance and judgement to come —FELIX TREMBLED—and answered go thy way for this time when I have a convenient season I will call for thee

    Proverbs 8:8
    All the words of —MY MOUTH—are in righteousness
    There is—NOTHING—froward or perverse in them

    Psalm 119:172
    My tongue shall of thy word
    For all thy commandments are righteousness

    Psalm 119:138
    Thy testimonies that thou hast commanded are—RIGHTEOUS—
    and very faithful

    Romans 10:3
    For they being ignorant of GODS righteousness and going about to establish their own righteousness have not submitted themselves
    unto the righteousness

    John 8:43
    Why do you not understand —MY SPEECH—
    Even because you cannot here —MY WORD—

    LOVING THE —LORD JESUS CHRIST—

  • steve morrow

    Correction:

    Psalm 119:172
    My tongue shall–speak –of thy word
    For all thy commandments are righteousness

    Romans 10:3
    For they being ignorant of GODS righteousness and going about to establish their own righteousness have not submitted themselves to the righteousness of—GOD—

    • Dale

      Thank you brother for your scriptures on God’s righteousness, but I don’t understand your point within this blog on the Trinity. Could you please explain the point you are making? When saints read just verses, they do not necessary understand what you are talking about or your point! It is not necessarily good to just quote scriptures without explanation. It can be at times in certain situations, though. When Nicodemus came to Jesus and Jesus told him he must be Born-Again, Jesus went on to explain what he meant and apparently talked with Nicodemus all night long. If you just quoted John 3:3, a lot today will not know what you are talking about. It helps the reader to know your point; what are you teaching. Some verses are clear enough without explanation even what you said on righteousness but a lot of others are not and need explaining and also the reader needs to know what point are you trying to make!

      This verse seems to be out of place on your scriptures of righteousness. Are you speaking against someone? Did you intend this against Trinitarians or oneness?
      John 8:43

      Why do you not understand —MY SPEECH—
      Even because you cannot here —MY WORD—

      • http://blueletterbible.org Larry “itisfinished” Jefferson

        Good point Dale. How about it Steve, are you trying to make any particular point regarding this discussion on the trinity?

  • steve morrow

    John 6:63
    It is the spirit that quickeneth
    —THE FLESH—profiteth nothing
    THE WORDS—I SPEAK UNTO YOU—
    THEY ARE SPIRIT AND THEY ARE LIFE

    Genesis 1:2
    And the earth was without form and void
    And darkness was upon the face of the deep
    And the spirit of GOD moved upon the face of the waters

    Psalm 29:3
    The voice of the LORD is upon the waters
    The GOD of glory thundereth
    The LORD is upon many waters

    John 3:3
    Jesus answered and said unto him
    Verily verily I say unto thee except a man —BE BORN AGAIN—
    —HE CANNOT SEE THE KINGDOM OF GOD—

    1 Peter 1:23
    —BEING BORN AGAIN—not of corruptible seed but of incorruptible —BY THE WORD OF GOD—which liveth and abideth forever

    Galatians 6:7&8
    —BE NOT DECEIVED—GOD is not mocked
    For whatsoever a man soweth that shall he also reap
    (8)For he that soweth to his flesh shall of the flesh reap corruption
    —BUT— he that soweth to the spirit shall of the spirit
    reap life everlasting

    John 6:68
    Then Simon Peter answered him
    LORD to—WHOM—shall we go
    Thou hast the words of eternal life

    Matthew 6:33
    But seek ye first —THE KINGDOM OF GOD–
    —AND HIS RIGHTEOUSNESS— and all these things shall be added unto you

    Proverbs 8:20
    I lead in —THE WAY—of righteousness
    In the midst of the paths of judgement

    John 12:49
    For I have —NOT SPOKEN—of MYSELF
    But the FATHER which sent ME HE gave ME a commandment
    What I should say —AND— what I should speak

    1 John 2:3-5
    And hereby we know that we know HIM
    —IF—we keep HIS commandments

    (4)
    He that saith I know HIM and keepeth not HIS commandments
    —IS A LIAR—and the truth is not in him

    (5)—BUT—whoso keepeth —HIS WORD—
    in him is the love of GOD perfected
    —HEREBY KNOW WE THAT WE ARE IN HIM—

    1 John 2:6
    He that saith he abideth in HIM
    Ought himself also so to walk even as HE walked

    LOVING—THE LORD JESUS—

    • Kalvin C.

      Overall, I enjoy the website and blog. I even enjoy some of the lively, healthy discussions among the various brothers and sisters who contribute to the comments section. Being a new Christian, I visit the site to learn and I often leave fulfilled. However, there are those times that I visit and leave very, very disturbed because of the willingness and eagerness of many of the commenters to vociferously argue their particular divisive points. I know that there are other new Christians that visit the site and read the blog and comments. For their (our) benefit, I would ask that each commenter seriously consider refraining from sharing their doctrinal, theological or interpretive “correctness” if and when they disagree with the blog authors or one another. I gain my knowledge of the gospel from reading it and hearing it in a Bible-believing church. What I hear in church is verified scripturally as I read in the spirit of the Bereans. This includes my view on the Trinity. Seeing all the comments and arguments regarding this subject is like a child listening to his divorced parents argue. I don’t believe that this level of debate serves the Kingdom and I would respectfully suggest that commenters consider starting their own blogs instead of “riding the bus for free” with respect to promoting their views.

      • Kalvin C.

        Steve,

        My comment is not aimed toward you or your input/contribution to the comments of this blog. I simply went to the end of all the arguing and added my comment. Kalvin C.

      • Dale

        Dear Kalvin:

        I don’t really feel there is arguing going on but more of a debate. This is necessary for this is a debate on the trinity. Each side must present their arguments and the other side must see if they can refute it. This may appear to be arguing to some, but I don’t’ feel people are arguing here. They are genuinely trying to express how and why they believe a certain way about the God essence. Without these discussions we can never come into all truth. I think both sides should present their best arguments the best they can and let the reader decide which is correct by diligent prayer and checking out what the author of the post said in the word of God and see if it is really true like the Bereans did. We need these discussions, and they are God’s will. God said in the OT: Come now let us reason together, and we are to mediate on the Word of God and discuss it among ourselves. God does want us to reason out these things so one day we can be unified in doctrine (which is God’s heart and will). God even prophesied of this when He inspired the Apostle Paul to write Eph 4:11-14. God gave the above offices till we come into the unity of the Faith which means it will happen. The question is will you be a part of it!

        Dale

  • Steve B

    Ok, since this is still going on the trinity thing, I have a question for Dale and AndyBob.

    Guys,
    Colossians 1:15 states that Jesus was the firstborn of creation.

    1- what does that mean?
    2- if it means that Jesus was the first created being, how do we get from first-born to first created?

    Not once has a single WTS/JW member been able to explain that to me.

    • Dale

      Give me time to condense my notes on the subject and present what I have to you. Hope to be done by tommorrow.

      Dale

      • Steve B

        No hurry (I’ve been waiting for 2 decades, so I doubt another day or so will hurt.). Just don’t condense them so much nothing is left. The WTS/JW’s I’ve been talking to have either condensed it to the point of epithets, or have never returned to answer the question.

        • Dale

          I decided to put in a post below so others can read it too. I sincerly hope this answers your Q

          Dale

    • http://www.aol.com Andybob

      Steve B,

      This scripture is often misunderstood because people think it refers to time but it refers to pre-emminence or favor status.

      Many interpret this verse in light of the false doctrine of a pre-existent Christ.

      Thanks,
      AB

  • Dale

    COMMON GOAL

    Let me say something that might help others and might help those who just send list of scriptures but make no point. In my opinion these list are pointless and wonder what place they have in these discussions as you don’t know the point they are making.

    Both Trinitarians and oneness believers have a common goal of becoming like Christ. This is quite evident if you visit either a Trinitarian or oneness Church. All Trinitarian and oneness believers who are born-again are saved and going to Heaven. There are millions of Trinitarian and oneness believers in heaven; howbeit their theology will be changed once they get there.

    God has used Trinitarians mightily in the past to glorify his name and some had miracle working healings. Many oneness believers were used mightily in the past and God gave them miracle power to heal his people.

    Oneness believers are just as saved as Trinitarians. This idea that Oneness believers are not saved because he does not believe Jesus is God is false and shows ignorance on the one making the charge for if he would go to a oneness church and see these believers worship, praise Yahweh and Jesus and win souls for him, they would never make such a ludicrous charge.
    We believe God the Father dwelt in and was manifested through Jesus, not that Jesus was God. Being Born-Again and filled with the Spirit, we are just as saved as anyone else. Jesus said you shall know the tree by its fruit. Jesus said a house divide against itself cannot stand.

    In past revivals Trinitarians worshipped alongside oneness believers in praying, praising, and worshipping Jesus and God for they loved their fellow believers in the Lord.

    Just because you miss interpret a verse and claim we are denying the deity of Christ does not make us unsaved. That is your interpretation of the verse and wrong conclusion.

    Oneness believers do not accuse Trinitarians of not being saved but unfortunately some Trinitarians accuse their oneness brothers of not being saved because they believe in oneness. This should not be! I want you to know that oneness believers are saved and going to Heaven!

    This does not mean it makes no difference in what you believe. I think it makes a very big difference in your relationship with God and Jesus and possibly will determine a lot of your position in Heaven. Beside, in these last days God wants h His people to know who He is and who His son is and wants all to come into the truth. Hence we need these debates and thank you Blue letter for being man enough to put them on.

    May all come to know Yahweh and Jesus Christ in their fullness.

    Dale

  • http://blueletterbible.org Larry “itisfinished” Jefferson

    I sincerely hope that no one participating in this discussion of the trinity vs oneness topic will go away with a divisive spirit or bitterness. Truth is the trinity or oneness is not the basis or foundation for the unity of believers. We are one Body in Christ, PERIOD! While debating of an issue can bring understanding, at the same time it can create division. Please understand what I mean, I may not agree with your theological position on this subject, that does not mean that I consider you “un-saved”, if you have put your trust and hope in the finished work of the Lord Jesus Christ, you are my brother and sister. We are saved by GRACE through FAITH. As it happens with “siblings” we will find occasions where we do not see eye to eye on every “doctrinal” point or issue, and that is ok. However we have a mandate from Our Father to LOVE ONE ANOTHER, and if we do that it will be well with you and I. The Trinitarian/Oneness debate has raged for hundreds of years, and this will probably not be the last time this issue will arise. I have enjoyed the exchanges and the differing points of view on the subject. I now move on, keeping myself in the Love of God, and not being offended by anything said on this blog. May God grant each of us the grace to forgive any and all offenses that we may have caused or incurred. Grace and Peace to each of you! (Dale I would like to dialogue with you further on this matter in a more personal or private format, if you are agreeable. I will check back here in a day or so for your reply, Bless you Brother).

    • Barbara LeFevre

      Larry~

      You make some excellent points about not having a “divisive spirit or bitterness” as well emphasizing that we are to “LOVE ONE ANOTHER.” However, and I’m not saying that this is your opinion, we need to be careful that our love, or what appears as love to avoid confrontation, does not sneak in and diminish the truth for the sake of harmony.

      We are told to truly embrace and act upon the truth of Hebrews 4:12 which says, “For the word of God [is] quick, and powerful, and sharper than any twoedged sword, piercing even to the dividing asunder of soul and spirit, and of the joints and marrow, and [is] a discerner of the thoughts and intents of the heart” (Heb. 4:12). In other words, God’s Word is a weapon, a weapon that He has given us that, when wielded correctly, goes forth immediately with such exacting force and unparalleled accuracy that there is absolutely nothing in the spiritual realm and absolutely nothing in the physical realm, including the very thoughts of our minds and the very motives of our hearts, that can stand against or escape its purpose and power~absolutely nothing. What a powerful promise God has given us in this verse! It is our guarantee that we can go confidently to His Word and find the exact truth that He has put forth and not just two plausible truths for which we can ‘agree to disagree,’ a phrase, I believe, that has done nothing but divide the body of Christ and keep Christians from truly walking in the fullness of God’s truth in understanding, in accountability, and in blessing. As Peter says, “According as his divine power hath given unto us all things that [pertain] unto life and godliness, through the knowledge of him that hath called us to glory and virtue” (II Pet. 1:3).

      The teaching of false doctrine should be a concern for every believer, but for those who have come out of cults, like me from Mormonism, it takes on a whole new meaning, and I will tell you this. If a group cannot rightly divide the Word with a doctrine such as the nature of God, then it will not be able rightly divide the word with other doctrines either. Once some person (e.g. Joseph Smith, Charles Taze Russell) or some group (RCC or Oneness Pentecostalism) play fast and loose with some of the Word, they will eventually play fast and loose with the rest of the Word* because one is either guided into all truth by the Holy Spirit, according to John 16:13, or one is not, and Scripture is very clear about how we are approach it:

      ~“Then Jesus said unto them, Take heed and beware of the leaven of the Pharisees and of the Sadducees….Then understood they how that he bade [them] not beware of the leaven of bread, but of the [false] doctrine of the Pharisees and of the Sadducees” (Matt. 16:6, 12).

      ~Jesus says to the angel of the church of Pergamos, “So hast thou also them that hold the doctrine of the Nicolaitans, which thing I hate.” (The “doctrine of the Nicolaitans” is the archetype of false doctrine and refers back to the story of Balak/Balaam.)

      ~“ye should earnestly contend for the faith which was once delivered unto the saints” (Jude 1:3b).

      ~“And have no fellowship with the unfruitful works of darkness, but rather reprove [them]” (Eph. 5:11).

      ~“But there were false prophets also among the people, even as there shall be false teachers among you, who privily shall bring in damnable heresies, even denying the Lord that bought them, and bring upon themselves swift destruction” (II Pet. 2:1)

      ~“I charge [thee] therefore before God, and the Lord Jesus Christ, who shall judge the quick and the dead at his appearing and his kingdom; Preach the word; be instant in season, out of season; reprove, rebuke, exhort with all longsuffering and doctrine. For the time will come when they will not endure sound doctrine; but after their own lusts shall they heap to themselves teachers, having itching ears; And they shall turn away [their] ears from the truth, and shall be turned unto fables” (II Tim. 4:1-4).

      *Oneness Pentecostals believe that they, only, are saved. In addition to this erroneous belief, other false doctrines include “(1) their belief that tongues is the necessary sign of salvation; (2) their denial of the pre-existence of Christ; (3) their belief that Jesus was Himself the Father; and (4) their belief that baptism “in Jesus’ name” is necessary for salvation” (Gregory A. Boyd, former O.P. member).

      It is my prayer that we speak the truth and that we speak it in love, but each one of us needs to put our spiritual foot down to preserve the truth that we were given. You wrote, “I may not agree with your theological position on this subject, that does not mean that I consider you ‘un-saved.’” So many times I’ve heard the comment that we, as Christians, have no right to say whether a person is saved or not, and the reason that I am always given is that we don’t know another person’s heart, which is true; only God knows our hearts, but no where in the Bible is it ever written that we must know someone’s heart to know whether they are saved or not. What the Bible does tell us is that we know people by their fruits (Matt. 7:20) and by their works (James 2:17, 24). In other words, we can know whether a person is saved by what he says, what he does, and what he believes (doctrine). The only exception to this can be understood in the story of a dear friend of mine. She had given her life to Jesus, but Mormonism had such an evil hold on her that it took her several years to fully leave it, so there would have been a period in which her speech, works, and actions would not fully be in line with the Word although she was saved. However, I can still rightfully say that Mormons are not saved because what they say, do, and believe contradict God’s Word, no matter how cleverly they manipulate it.

      I pray that God will provide the needed wisdom and discernment to each of us as we strive to keep God’s precious Word pure for ourselves and for others.

      Your sister in Christ~
      Barbara

      • http://blueletterbible.org Larry “itisfinished” Jefferson

        Amen Sister, very well stated. Grace to you!

      • http://www.aol.com andybob

        .

        Barbara,

        I was so glad to read your testimony about being saved out of Mormonism! Thanks for sharing Sister and THANK YOU Father for saving her!

        I want you to understand that I believe one has to be born again as I was not at one time in my life but came out of a non-born again church, the Roman Catholic Church years ago.

        I am still being guided into all truth just as the rest of the brethren are .

        You wrote a blog a few days back clearly showing one can lose their salvation (i.e. a defense against “Calvinism”). It was very well laid out and proven by scripture and I echoed your defense of this false doctrine that keeps Christians from going deeper into the Lord and maturing and being perfected.

        I believe the false doctrine of a triune god or trinity is another one of those false teachings because it makes Jesus a God or God the Son and sets one into a polytheism framework and keeps us as Christians from realizing we can truly identify with Jesus because was a human being.

        I have prayed that you will let me explain my reasons before you write me off as a heretic and one that is in a cult.

        I have tried to explain that Jesus was a human being like you and I and had a body, soul and spirit like you and I and that the Almighty God dwelt within him John 14:10 and He did the miracles through Jesus.

        – Jesus had a body (Luke 23:52, Mark 15:23)

        – Jesus had a soul (Mat 26:38)

        – Jesus had a spirit (Mark 2:8, Luke 23:46)

        We know from scripture that God cannot be tempted (James 1:13) but Jesus, being a man, like you and I are, was tempted in the wilderness – (Mark 1:13, Luke 4:2, Heb 4:15)

        We know that God is eternal (Deut 33:27, 1 Tim 1:17, Heb 9:14) and cannot die but Jesus a human being was born (Mat 1:16, Mat 2:1), lived life and did actually die on the cross (Mark 15:37-39, Luke 23:46).

        It boils down to this. Either Jesus was God or God lived or dwelt in this wonderful man just as he can in our lives!

        If one believes that Jesus was God or God the Son than how could one reconcile his being tempted and his death if he was not a human being? They cannot because it goes against clear scripture, right?

        My former belief in the Trinitarian teachings held me back from identifying with Jesus Christ as a man because as a God or God the Son he could do anything because he was perfect but that is not true because we was perfected by the things that he suffered Hebrew 2:10 and Hebrew 5:9.

        Most Christians believe that God is perfect but Jesus, the man, had to grow into perfection and so must we do likewise in our Christian walk.

        The realization for me is that I look to Jesus, the glorified man, as one I can identify with because he is not one who does not understand but he fully understands what we go through as human beings. The writer of the Book of Hebrews, by inspiration of God’s Holy Spirit said this same thing to us,
        “For we do not have a high priest who is unable to sympathize with our weaknesses, but one who in every respect has been tempted as we are, yet without sin.”

        I pray that you will see that God was in Jesus Christ reconciling the world to Himself and that he only could do the things he did because God “in” him was doing he works (John 4:10).

        God bless you with His love, joy, peace and mercy continually,

        Your servant and brother,
        Andybob

        • http://www.aol.com andybob

          Sorry ’bout that Barbara… the last paragraph should have John 14:10 not 4:10.

          “Do you not believe that I am in the Father and the Father is in me? The words that I say to you I do not speak on my own authority, but the Father who dwells in me does his works. ”

          Thanks,
          AB

        • Dale

          Dear Barbara:

          There are several problems to your statements:

          1.*Oneness Pentecostals believe that they, only, are saved. In addition to this erroneous belief, other false doctrines include “(1) their belief that tongues is the necessary sign of salvation; (2) their denial of the pre-existence of Christ; (3) their belief that Jesus was Himself the Father; and (4) their belief that baptism “in Jesus’ name” is necessary for salvation” (Gregory A. Boyd, former O.P. member).

          Number 2 is correct but I haven’t the slightest idea where you get the others from. THEY ARE FALSE! I will not comment on them because this is a blog on the Trinity.

          2. What was the Faith that we are to earnestly contend for and that the Apostles taught:

          The Scriptures clearly say that God is one from the KJV:

          •(Duet 6:4 KJV ) Hear, O Israel: The LORD (Yahweh) our God (Elohim) is one LORD (Yahweh):

          •(Mark 12:29 KJV ) And Jesus answered him, The first of all the commandments is, Hear, O Israel; The Lord (Kurios but referring to Yahweh) our God (Theos but referring to Elohim) is one Lord (Kurios):

          •(Mar 12:32 KJV) And the scribe said unto him, Well, Master, thou hast said the truth: for there is one God; and there is none other but he: Greek is God is one.

          •(Rom 3:30 KJV) Seeing it is one God, which shall justify the circumcision by faith, and uncircumcision through faith. But the Greek is actually God is one.

          •(Jam 2:19 KJV) Thou believest that there is one God; thou doest well: the devils also believe, and tremble. Again the Greek is actually God is one.

          •(Gal 3:20 KJV) Now a mediator is not a mediator of one, but God is ONE

          •Duet 4:35 Unto thee it was shewed, that thou mightest know that the LORD (Yahweh) he is God (Elohim); there is none else beside him.

          This verse is clearly showing that Yahweh is Elohim, which Jesus called his Father. Also this verse clearly shows there is NONE Else, meaning only Yahweh is God not Jesus or a so-called God the Holy Spirit! There is only one god, not three gods.

          •(Isa 43:10-12 KJV)
          10 Ye are my witnesses, saith the LORD (Yahweh) , and my servant whom I have chosen: that ye may know and believe me, and understand that I am he: before me there was no God formed, neither shall there be after me.
          11 I, even I, am the LORD; and beside me there is no saviour.
          12 I have declared, and have saved, and I have shewed, when there was no strange god among you: therefore ye are my witnesses, saith the LORD, that I am God (EL).

          •(Isa 44:6-8 KJV)
          6 Thus saith the LORD the King of Israel, and his redeemer the LORD of hosts; I am the first, and I am the last; and beside me there is no God.
          8 Fear ye not, neither be afraid: have not I told thee from that time, and have declared it? ye are even my witnesses. Is there a God beside me? yea, there is no God; I know not any.
          24 Thus saith the LORD, thy redeemer, and he that formed thee from the womb, I am the LORD that maketh all things; that stretcheth forth the heavens alone; that spreadeth abroad the earth by myself.

          Yahweh said there is no god beside him and that HE alone made the heavens and earth. Therefore Col 1:16 cannot be used to say Christ created the heavens and earth, especially when the Greek does not say BY but IN.

          Now where are the scriptures that say these exact words: GOD IS THREE? There is none and yet the Bible says these exact words: GOD IS ONE. The Bible was written to impart truth. If the Bible says God is one and no where says God is three, then you can be sure God is one and not three and all the ambiguous scriptures that you use to interpret a trinity must be interpreted in the light of these clear verses that clearly say GOD IS ONE. I interpret all the ambiguous scriptures in light of these clear scriptures that show God is one and that there is only one God and none other. If God was a real Trinity, he knows how to say it in the Bible but instead He clearly said He was ONE. This should end all confusion! Furthermore, there is nothing in the Hebrew or Greek to indicate a “united one.” This argument shows dishonesty and ignorance of the Hebrew and Greek.

          When God says he is ONE, He means HE is ONE, not three!

          So if you follow the bible that clearly teaches that there is ONE GOD and that GOD IS ONE and NO WHERE SAY GOD IS THREE, you are a cult not following the Bible. And yet if you believe the counsels of men that formulated the Doctrine of the Trinity in the 4-5 centuries at Nicaea and Chalcedon which are nowhere taught in the Bible (God the son, God the Holy spirit, Trinity, triune God, preexistent Christ are nowhere to be found in the Bible), then you are considered a Bible believer and not a heretic. What kind of logic is that?

          I find it very strange that Oneness believers go by the Bible and they are accused of being a cult by the Trinitarians where as the Oneness brethren accept Trinitarians as Born Again Bible believers except their theology on the God essence. They accept them because of their CONFESSION OF FAITH OF BEING BORN AGAIN and the fruits they manifest and works.
          If my theology on the God essence is not in the Bible then why haven’t you or anyone else been able to or even tried to refute what I said in the other blog “what is the doctrine of the Trinity”? Why do you reject the clear scriptures above that say that there is one God and God is one and nowhere says God is three?

          I strongly suggest you examine what I said and see if these thing s are according to the Bible like the Bereans and not follow some antagonistic who wrote some book claiming oneness believers are a cult, which you appear to be doing.

          3. A cult is someone who departs from orthodoxy (that is, what is Biblical, not the erroneous definition given by some), not someone who believes in the Bible likeness believers. If you believe and follow the bible that say God is one, you are not a cult or heretic.

          These authors of these books don’t know what they are talking about and have not really examined the issue and they are not the authority but the Word of God

          Just assuming someone is a cult does not make them a cult. You got to prove what they are saying is wrong. Anybob proved Jesus was a man. I proved Jesus was not worshipped as God and that God is one. You have not disproved any of that.

          4. What the Bible does tell us is that we know people by their fruits (Matt. 7:20) and by their works (James 2:17, 24). In other words, we can know whether a person is saved by what he says, what he does, and what he believes (doctrine).

          Jesus also said a house divide against itself cannot stand. So oneness believers who worship and praise and love Jesus and God and win many souls to Christ are a cult? Have you been to a oneness church and seen the spiritual lives of oneness believers and if not why are you judging the innocent?

          Where does it say anywhere in the Bible that if one believes in the oneness he is a cult or not saved? There is no scripture that says this or even indicates this in the slightest! The Bible says Born-Again believers are saved. So if your Oneness believer you are no longer Born –Again! That is really wild!

          May you be willing to prove all things and hold on to that which is good,

          Dale

          • Barbara LeFevre

            Dale~

            You have brought up a great many points which I would very much like to address; however, it may take a few days. I have the flu, and I already owe a response to Kenneth. After that, I will be happy to address your concerns.

            Barbara

        • Barbara LeFevre

          Andybob~

          Thanks for responding, and I am thankful for your deliverance from the RCC! God is good! There are a lot of points about the Triune nature of God that you have brought up which I would like to respond to, but I can’t for a few days. I don’t know if you read my other posts from today, but I have the flu, and I owe Kenneth and Dale a response. After that, I would be happy to discuss the specific verses and ideas that you brought up.

          Although I don’t agree with you on this issue, I sure hope that I haven’t given the impression that I wouldn’t let you explain your reasons, and I also want to clarify that I don’t believe that every person who believes false doctrine is a heretic or in a cult. Sometimes people just haven’t learned the truth of God’s Word on a particular topic. That’s why these blogs are so great. They give us a chance to study specific verses and doctrines in order to either grow in the Word ourselves or to help others grow in it.

          I pray that God will guide each one of us into the truth.

          Your sister~
          Barbara

          P.S. Have you had a chance to study the Trinity article on BLB by Robert Bowman, Jr.?

    • Dale

      Dear brother Larry:

      I do believe we should do everything in love but a hot debate may appear to some as lacking love when it does not. It is just a hot debate, which is not wrong in the eyes of God. If you ever sit in on Engineers debating over an issue, it may sound like a battle is going on, but they have no animosity toward one another; they are just feel very strongly about their point, and they are trying to prove the other one wrong and that they are right with facts. This is good.

      These debates are good and very necessary, and I don’t’ feel anyone has really gotten out of line. I do feel saying oneness believers are not saved or a cult or of the devil is defiantly wrong and has no Bible basis and is counterproductive, but I have nothing against anyone who has posted their arguments. I love my brothers and sister in Christ.

      I am disappointed that no one has taken up my challenge to refute what I said; they just give more scriptures and some give no point to them so you have no idea what they are saying!

      It is God’s will we debate the Word of God and reason together to try to come up with the truth.

      You said: “Truth is (in) the trinity or oneness is not the basis or foundation for the unity of believers.” I believe IT IS. That is, it is a major basis and foundation for the unity of believers in theology, which God wants all is people to come into (Eph 4:11-15). It is true that being Born –Again is the common basis for being fellow believers (which you correctly realize – THNK YOU); but God wants all to have the same Faith regarding the God essence.

      These discussions are extremely important to God. In past revivals, this issue of the oneness of God and the Trinity has come up and has been a subject of much debate. And in these revivals, many Trinitarians became believers in oneness and even started new churches. Others remained Trinitarians. The doctrine of the God essence seems to be the one and last doctrine that is keeping the church divide in theology. God does not want that nor does He want us to ignore the issue. I strongly believe it is God’s will we discuss (debate) this out to its full so those who are open to truth will see it and come into it. God cannot pour out His power upon us till we are unified, and we will never be unified till this matter is settled! So no matter how hot the debate, it is necessary we continue till its conclusion. WE ah veto face and deal with this issue! This is God’s will. And I believe we can do it in the love and spirit of Christ which for the most part, I believe has been done. Until then we can keep the unity of the Spirit until we come into the unity of the Faith.

      As for as getting together, I’m not sure how to do this or what you have in mind. If you are open to what I say, yes. If you already made up your mind that the Trinity is true and you will not be told otherwise, then the answer is no. Also, I’m no great theologian or speaker at all. I going through a Job trial and suffering from Myelofibrosis. I’m very sick most of the time. This will explain why I make so many typo errors. I can’t type very well and its very painful for me. But if you are willing, I will try my best! (I strongly believe in divine healing but God has not poured out his gifts to much of an extent to His sleepy church in United States). But one day He will and then will come to pass Jesus’ words, “greater works than these shall you do.”

      In Christ’s peace,
      Dale

      • http://blueletterbible.org Larry “itisfinished” Jefferson

        Thank you Brother Dale for responding to my request. I appreciate very much your passion for truth. It is evident that you have given time, energy and effort to study and research this subject, may God”s grace be sufficient for you in your trial.
        You have made a very compelling argument for the Oneness of God with abundant scriptural documentation. I can not refute the evidence you have presented on this blog.
        I am presently re-examing and re-thinking a lot of religious concepts that I have “blindly” accepted, and “assumed” them to be true.
        I confess that when I initially saw your statement that Jesus is/was not God, and it could be proved from the Bible, (not an exact quote), I had a kneejerk reaction, hence my post, “what are you smoking” etc. I apologize and ask your forgiveness?
        Where is it written that one has to believe that Jesus is God?
        As I have read what you have had to say, it has stirred me to step out of the restraints of “religious opinions”, and to hear the hard and difficult words of truth as it is written.
        I am not a coward, and I have no qualms about killing “sacred cows”, so let the truth be told, and let the cowchips fall where they may, LOL!

        Do you have an e-mail? Are you willing to share your study notes on this subject? Is your last name Hammond?
        Grace to you!

        • Barbara LeFevre

          Larry~

          I have followed your posts, and while I do believe that you truly desire to know God’s truth, your responses seem to vacillate between the two doctrines being discussed here, meaning that you have not acted upon the personal command “Study to shew thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth” (II Tim. 2:15) because, when we do, we WILL reap the exact truth being put forth as we are promised: “Howbeit when he, the Spirit of truth, is come, he will guide you into all truth: for he shall not speak of himself; but whatsoever he shall hear, [that] shall he speak: and he will shew you things to come” (Jn. 16:13).

          I don’t even know you, so I don’t say these things to unfairly criticize you because I don’t know whether you are saved, whether you have been saved only a short time, or whether you have been saved for years but never have truly submitted yourself to God in order to receive His truth, which is the category that I fell into before I woke up. I’m going to share with you some truths that will guarantee that you can know God’s truth.

          ~Spend both quality and quantity time in the Word and in prayer. These are God’s chosen vehicles to impart His truth to us. Yes, He has given us pastors and teachers, but nothing is to interfere or replace these two things in our lives because they illustrate our submission to Him and our willingness to die to Him. As a dear friend once told me, “You can read about the Word, listen to someone teach the Word, and discuss the Word with others, but until you are into the Word, you will never learn what it says or grow in it.” She was absolutely right.

          ~You need to periodically fast. This acts proves to God that we are ready to listen, that we are tired of the status quo and that we want Him to move in our lives in some new and profound way. If you want some great information on fasting, go to Jentezen Franklin’s website.

          ~You need to repent. We all sin, and we know that when we do, we have an advocate in Christ Jesus, but what I am talking about here is a spirit of rebellion that comes from not getting real with the Word of God, of thinking that we deserve God’s wisdom and knowledge and discernment while we still live the life of the “old man.” For me, it was money. For reasons too many to go into here, I was not faithful to God in paying my bills or my tithing. So blind was I to my sin, that when I was told by a speaker at a women’s retreat that I was not experiencing financial blessing because I had a “spirit of poverty,” I believed her! Not surprisingly, her attempts at ridding me of said spirit failed, and it was only when I finally became obedient to God’s Word, I started experiencing God’s blessings, both spiritual and temporal.

          ~As spoken in the Word, there are a great many false prophets and false teachers in the world, and I will tell you something about them. They can articulate their false theologies just as well as true teachers of the Word. Christian websites, blogs, and commentaries are truly great resources, but we are never to base our beliefs on them but to adhere the advice given in Acts 17:11b: “they received the word with all readiness of mind, and searched the scriptures daily, whether those things were so.”

          I hope that you will receive my advice in the spirit that it was given. Have a blessed day!
          Barbara

          • Barbara LeFevre

            Larry~

            I just want to make a correction. Two of my paragraphs begin with the word “You” when I should have written “We.” I meant these as general statements about all of us, not to single you out. Sorry!

            Barbara

        • Dale

          It would be safer that you give me your e mail address and we can go from there, Start a new one for security reasons in case you have to abandon it. I maybe a target. Would love to converse with you and wish there was and easier way to do e mail. This subject is not done with.

          In Christ’s peace,

          Dale

  • steve morrow

    Proverbs 18:2 (NIV)
    A fool finds no pleasure in understanding
    But delights in airing his own opinions

    Proverbs 19:5 (NIV)
    A false witness shall not be unpunished
    and he that speaketh lies shall not escape

    Proverbs 6:16
    These six things doth the LORD hate yea even seven are an abomination to HIM

    Proverbs 6:19
    A false witness that speaketh lies
    And he that soweth discord among the brethren

    Luke 17:1&2
    Then said HE unto the disciples
    It is impossible but that offences will come
    But woe unto him through whom they come

    (2)It were better for him that a millstone were hanged around his neck and he cast into the sea than that he should offend one of these little ones

    Matthew 25:44-46
    Then shall they also answer HIM saying
    LORD when saw we thee an hungered or athirst or a stranger or naked or sick or in prison and did not minister unto thee

    (45) Then shall HE answer saying verily I say unto you
    Inasmuch as you did it not to one of the least of these
    you did it not unto ME

    (46)And these shall go into everlasting punishment
    But the righteous into life eternal

    1 Peter 2:21
    For even hereunto were you called
    Because CHRIST also suffered for us
    Leaving us an example that you should follow his steps

    1 Peter 1:15
    But as HE which hath called you is holy
    so you be holy in all manner of conversation

    1 Peter 1:16
    Because it is written
    BE YE HOLY FOR I AM HOLY

    1 Peter 1:17
    And if you call on the FATHER who —WITHOUT—respect of persons
    judgeth according to every mans work pass the time of your sojournig hear in fear

    LOVING THE LORD

    • http://blueletterbible.org Larry “itisfinished” Jefferson

      Thank you Steve, for allowing the Word to speak for you.

  • Dale

    Answer to Col 1:15 of Jesus being the first born of creation

    Vine’s Expository Dictionary says concerning “firstborn” = prōtotokos {pro-tot-ok’-os} = “firstborn” (from protos, “first” and tikto, “to begat”) is used of Christ as born of the Virgin Mary, further, in His relationship to the Father, expressing HIS PRIORITY TO, and PREEMINENCE OVER, CREATION, not in the sense of being the “first” to be born (time).

    So it is NOT talking about firstborn in time but first born in PREEMINENCE.

    The meaning of the first born is seen in the Hebrew custom of the firstborn son. The first born son was given the “birth right inheritance,” which means when the father died:

    1) He would receive a double portion of the land inheritance while the others received a single portion, dividing rest of the inheritance among themselves.

    2) He would become the leader of the family in place of his father. This birthright was not necessarily granted to the son that was born first as the case of Esua and Jacob, Ishmael and Isaac, Manasseh and Ephraim, Rueben and Joseph, and Adam and Christ.

    So the term “firstborn” refers to preeminence, superiority, and special privileges of the “birthright” of the firstborn. It speaks of his authority, inheritance, and position.

    It is talking about Christ having a preeminent position over God’s creation. Christ has inherited all things from God and he has been given a position of authority over the church in which he is the head. Christ has been exalted to a position of authority at God’s right hand and he rules over his church from the heavenlies. God has made him our Lord and our Christ. And in the millennium, he will literally rule over the earth.

    Ps 89:26-27 He will call out to me, ‘You are my Father, my God, the Rock my Savior.’ I will also appoint him my firstborn, the most exalted of the kings of the earth.

    Firstborn speaks of position for he is the most exalted King of the Kings of the earth

    Hebrews 1:8:
    8 But [concerning] the Son he says, “Your throne is God, it will last for ever and ever, and righteousness will be the scepter of your kingdom. 9 You have loved righteousness and hated wickedness; therefore God, your God, has set you above your companions by anointing you with the oil of joy.”

    Hebrews 2:6-8
    6 But there is a place where someone has testified: “What is man that you are mindful of him, the son of man that you care for him? 7 You made him a little lower than the angels; you crowned him with glory and honor 8 and put everything under his feet.” In putting everything under him, God left nothing that is not subject to him. Yet at present we do not see everything subject to him.

    Col 1:18 And he is the head of the body, the church; he is the beginning and the firstborn from among the dead, so that in everything he might have the supremacy.

    Ephesians 4:11, 15-15
    11 It was he who gave some to be apostles, some to be prophets, some to be evangelists, and some to be pastors and teachers. 15 Instead, speaking the truth in love, we will in all things grow up into him who is the Head, that is, Christ. 16 From him the whole body, joined and held together by every supporting ligament, grows and builds itself up in love, as each part does its work.

    Phil 2:9-11 Therefore God exalted him to the highest place and gave him the name that is above every name, that at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, in heaven and on earth and under the earth, and every tongue confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father.

    Jesus was called the last Adam because he was the first born of a new creation of Spiritual sons of God who are in the last Adam
    Even though Christ was not the first born over creation in time, he was the first true born spiritual son of God as the Second Adam, the spiritual son that God started out to make back in Gen 1:26.

    Jesus is the firstborn of a spiritual race of the sons of God and in antithesis to the first Adam. Jesus is the second and last Adam, the one that God originally started out to make back in Genesis for he was the first to fulfill God plan, purpose, and heart.

    Christ was the first man to be made completely into the image and likeness of God as far as man is capable of becoming. He was the first man to obey God fully and keep the heart of the law. He was the first man to please the heart of God and love him to the fullest extent possible as proven by his decision in the garden of Gethsemane. It was God’s will that Jesus give his soul for us and make the decision to spend eternity in the lake of fire in order that we might be saved. He love God so much that in affect he was saying: “Father if it is your will is for me to do this in order for mankind to be save, then I love you so much that I’m willing to do it. But if it at all be possible, make a way out so I don’t have to go to hell for ever. God heard him in what he feared and delivered him out of it so Christ did not actually have to go to hell only make the decision to do so (Heb 5:7). NO OTHER HUAMN BEING HAS EVER EVEN COME ANY WHERES CLOSE TO THIS TYPE OF LOVE and because of it, he is more valuable to God then all of the rest of mankind put together. He was the first to live without sin and to live only by the Word of God. He was the first to grow into the likeness of God, that obeyed God perfectly, that was made like God as to His character and heart. He was the first to become one with God in unity and purpose. He is the second Adam because he was born without a conscience and communed with God from his birth like Adam did from his creation. Adam sinned before he really got going whereas Christ not only did not sin but he continued on communing, growing, falling more in love, obeying God, and ever increasing in the knowledge and wisdom of God. He was the first one to be filled with the Holy Spirit and use it to overcome his temptations and the devil. He was the first one to Minster for God accurately, fully, and perfectly. He was the first one to accurately represent God to the world and he was the first and only one who gave his soul in order that man might be saved and to please God.

    Because Christ obeyed God fully and fulfilled God’s plan, he was able to bring other sons into the image and likeness of God by reconciling them to God through his shed blood on the cross and by leaving them an example of how to live for God

    Jesus is the first born of every spiritual creation (2nd Adam), showing preeminence. We become a spiritual creation when we accept Christ and follow God and become a son of God in the 2nd Adam, the new man

    Christ is the first one to attain to what God had intended for man from the beginning and because of that he was able to fulfill God’s plan in making others into the image of God:

    We will also come into that image and likeness and fulfill Gen 1:26

    So Jesus was the first born true spiritual son of God in time and the first born son in preeminence over all of God’s creation

    Notice Jesus was first born. Being born and being eternal are opposites.

    The Trinitarians try to use the clause “the first born over all creation” to prove the pre-existence of Christ by saying it means Christ was the first born (in time) before all creation. First born is not the same as fist born in time but in preeminence. First born does not mean first born from all eternity by an eternal process of regeneration as the preexistent son. Being born and being eternal are opposites.

    Christ did not exist before he was born except in the mind of God who foreknew Christ before he was born and created the whole world with Christ in mind as the following verses show.

    If Christ is being born by an eternal process of generation then he still hasn’t been born yet for it is still going on and therefore he can’t be the son of God for he hasn’t been born yet.

    Matthew 1:18 18 This is how the birth of Jesus Christ came into being: His mother Mary was pledged to be married to Joseph, but before they came together, she was found to be with child through the Holy Spirit.

    Birth = 1083 ge,nnhsij gennesis {ghen’-nay-sis} = beginning.
    Jesus did not exist before his birth. No one can exist before they are born nor can anyone preexist. It is impossible to exist before you exist. This is non-sensei cal. You don’t exist till you exist and Jesus didn’t exist till he was born.

    Rev 3:14 “And to the angel of the church in Laodicea write: ‘The words of the Amen, the faithful and true witness, the beginning of God’s creation. – ESV

    Christ not only became the image of God, the mouth piece of God, and the body and soul God used to work through, but Christ also grew into God’s likeness, which the first Adam failed to do.

    In the same way, he is called the first born of every creature, meaning that everyone is a new creature in Christ Jesus, that is, those who are part of the last Adam, spiritually.

    Jesus is the image of the invisible God in that he is a representation of God. God dwelt in Jesus and manifested himself through Christ’s body both in words and in actions, being the logos expressed (John 1:14). Jesus was God’s body so-to speak that God chose to dwell in and manifest himself through to others. Christ was God’s mouth that he could speak through, His face that He could shine through, His hands to help others, and so forth.

    Jesus was so perfectly yielded to His heavenly Father that he could say that the words I speak to you are not from me but from the Father that dwells within me. He is the one doing the works (John 14:10 NIV 1984), meaning they saw the results of God manifesting Himself through Christ so the invisible God was made manifest in the body and person of the son of God.

    Paul said in Colossians 1:15 that Jesus was the image of the invisible God and in Hebrews 1:1-2 he said that God spoke to us in his son.

    Therefore, when God spoke to his people through Jesus and did fantastic miracles through him , it could be said that God was with us (Matthew 1:23 NIV 1984).

    Because God was using the son of man in which to dwell in and manifest himself through, Jesus in effect, became the body of God. But this in nowise implies God has a fleshly body as part of his divine being or spirit essence but only that God took up his abode in the man Christ Jesus (Col 2:9: 2 Cor 5:19), for God is a Spirit that fills heaven and earth (John 4:24 KJV; Jeremiah 23:24).

    Christ was not given the Spirit by measure as we are for in Christ dwells all the fullness of the Deity in bodily form (Col 2:9 NIV 1984). Greek is better “God essence.” This means God manifested Himself through Christ without limit to authority and power God.

    God is often limited in how He manifests himself through us because we are not in the same place as Christ in being without sin and totally yielded to his Heavenly Father and perfectly obeying Him in everything, so God cannot flow through us in total power or give us his full authority. We can only get into the place Christ was (to a measure) by living and walking in the Spirit and seeking God with our whole hearts till we find Him and fall in love with Him like Jesus did all his life.
    Jesus was without sin and so perfectly yielded to God that he could ask whatever he wanted and God would back it up for he only asked for God’s will (John 8:29 NIV)

    If Jesus was given the Spirit without limit (in full measure –KJV) as John 3:34 NIV says, then it should be obvious that because he was given the Spirit, implied by another, that he is not the spirit, that is, God. Jesus was given the Spirit by God (someone infinitely greater) and therefore can’t be God or that Spirit that was given him.

    Whatever Christ did, he did by the wisdom, knowledge, and power of God (His Heavenly Father) that was dwelling in and manifesting himself through him.

    When Jesus said before Abraham was (John 8:58), God was speaking though Christ, giving him credence before the unbelieving Jews that the God that was dwelling in Christ and manifesting Himself through him was none other than the God of the OT, Yahweh Elohim Himself

    The Jews thought Christ was saying this of himself and couldn’t believe God was in him and were therefore stumbled by what he said. They knew that the man standing before them was brought up in Nazareth and certainly did not live before Abraham. But God was speaking through Jesus saying this, just as God speaks to us in prophecy as opposed to anointed preaching and just as God spoke through the OT prophets. If someone prophesies, we would not believe that the person is saying that to us, but we would recognize it to be of God. Same way in the OT, when the prophets prophesied, they knew it was God speaking through them.

    Naturally at times, the Jews would think Christ was saying everything that came out of his mouth, but Hebrews1:2 tells us God spoke IN his son, not that God spoke to us through his human soul.

    (Heb 1:2 NIV 1984) 2 but in these last days he has spoken to us IN (ev) his Son, whom he appointed heir of all things, and through whom he made the universe.

    Note concerning Col 1:16: The Bible does not say “For BY him were all things created.” This is a deliberate mistranslation of the Greek Bible in order to get a Christ as creator doctrine in the Bible. The Greek says IN (ev): “For IN him were all things created (that is on account of him or because of him or for the sake of him or such similar idea). The scriptures are very clear that God alone created the heavens and earth (Job 9:8; Gen 14:22; Isa 40:28; 45:6-7). God doesn’t need any help in creating the Heavens and Earth. He doesn’t need a second God called God the son to help Him create. A better translation is as the original NAS 1971: “ For IN Him all things were created, both in the heavens and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or rulers or authorities – all things have been created THROUGH (dia) and FOR (eis) Him. The only thing I would change is “Him” to “him” in order to distinguish the man Christ Jesus from God his Father.

    So Jesus was not the first created being but was the preeminent son that obtained the birth right inheritance, and he was the first truly born spiritual son of God that God started out to make in the Garden of Eden. He is the first of a new race of Adams, the second Adams that are made into the image of God through Christ (Gen 1:26). Jesus was given authority and a position to rule over God’s Creation (Heb 2:7-8; Heb 1:6 [Greek is “God is your throne.” Jesus Christ is sitting on the authority of God Himself as though God were his throne, a figure of speech, a metonymy where one thing stands in for another, the throne standing in for the authority of God]. In Revelation chapters 21-3 we see Jesus Christ ruling over the churches throughout the 7 church ages, showing he is actually ruling (by God’s power and Spirit) over God’s church.

    In Hebrews chapter 2:9-12, we see that because of Christ‘s sacrifice many spiritual sons will be brought into glory and Jesus calls them his brothers. Brothers are of a like kind, not a different kind. Jesus has been made like unto mankind, flesh so he can identify with our suffering sand temptation and be a faithful high priest (Heb 2:14-18).

    May all come to Know Yahweh ( the name of God in the OT) and His son, Jesus Christ, in their fullness.

    Dale

    • Steve B

      Hi Dale.
      Thank you.
      While this is indeed comprehensive, I think it misses some very important points. And I apologize, I’m too tired to deal with them as clearly as they deserve right now.

      I do however want to reiterate what I’d stated above about Dr. Boyarin’s (an Orthodox Jew) book- The Jewish Gospels (the Gospels from a Jewish Perspective, including historically Jewish/Israelite/Hebrew ideas).
      In reading it, he deals rather extensively with the Jewish mindset on Daniel 7:13-15, and how that they would have indeed noted two distinct Divine Personages, something that would’ve been well-understood in Jesus’ day.
      If you have a Kindle reader, it’s $9.99. If not, it’s $14.00.
      I think he’d probably do a far better job of explaining this concept.
      Next, and some might decry this, I’m beginning to think we need to dump the TERM– Trinity.
      Not because I think it’s biblically inaccurate, but because it’s become too-over-inundated by history, and has missed the idea that is presented in Scripture.
      The concept of there being 3 Divine Beings, who are all the One God, YHVH is clear in scripture. One of the things/points that Dr. Boyarin deals with in his book is that church history has buried the original idea out of Hebrew scriptures in their race to create an independent belief system, separate and distinct from Jewish/Hebrew beliefs.
      What we as followers of Jesus hold are in fact VERY Jewish/Hebrew beliefs. Or, as I’m so fond of saying to Jewish people I’ve met, or talked with– If Jesus is NOT the Jewish Messiah, he CANNOT be the Gentile Savior (and yes, I’m Goy!).

      In strongly encourage all of you to read this book (The Jewish Gospels) by Boyarin. I’m seriously impressed with the research he’s put into it.

      • Dale

        This doens’t change at all what I bleive but is worthy to comment. Give me time to put something together. If you want to help me and show Agape, pray that I would feel well and not be in so much pain and type/spell better. Also, let’s pray for Barara that she would be healed from the flu and recover quickly in Jesus name.

        Dale

        • Dale

          I meant Barbara leFevre

          • Barbara LeFevre

            Thank you, Dale and everyone else for the prayers! I still felt pretty crummy today but not as bad as yesterday. I hope that when I wake up tomorrow that I will be feeling well enough to get my responses done.

            Barbara

          • Barbara LeFevre

            Dale and Andybob~

            I was also wondering if we could begin this part of our dialogue as a new thread. With all of us going back and forth, it’s getting crazy wondering where to post things. (As proof of this, I originally posted this on the reply button for Steve B!)

            Thanks!
            Barbara

            P.S. There’s another post right after the original one.

        • Steve B

          Hi Dale.
          Prayer is indeed given.
          Moreover, here’s a great source for asking prayer of other saints as well.
          http://www.godlife.com/prayer-wall
          People from all over the globe see this, and for those who are Jesus followers– they will pray as well.
          Then, please don’t think that I have discounted what you’d written. It’s the most comprehensive I’ve read to date. As stated, I’ve asked numerous WTS/JW people, either on other forums, or face to face, and the very best I’ve gotten as far as actual responses are numerous, and repeated epithets.
          There was one elderly gentleman with whom I’d spoken, and he’d promised to return in two weeks. He never did. I’d thought about going to the local Kingdom Hall to find out why he never returned.

          • Barbara LeFevre

            Steve~

            Thank you so much for your prayers. I’m not totally healed, but I am on my way thank to all of you and our God!

            Have a blessed day!
            Barbara

        • Steve B

          Now, on to the idea of prototokos.

          The WTS/JW’s that I’ve talked with have tried telling me that giving birth is the same as creating.
          I’ve then had to explain that the idea of– giving birth, or “begetting” is one that I’m still attempting to understand myself. As I presently understand it, it’s a matter of nature passing along like nature.
          So, in that Jesus is the Only Begotten of the Father, the Father passed his own nature along to the Son. In the same manner that we humans pass our nature along to our children, God the Father passed his nature along to the Son.
          In this book that I’ve mentioned, by Dr. Boyarin, he’s saying that the passages we refer to as God speaking to His own son– Psalm 2, and Psalm 110, as well as others, Dr. B. believes that God is in fact calling the King– David in this case– his son. Again, I apologize that I’m not able to give you a page, as I’m reading the Kindle version on my PC, and my WinPhone7. I can tell you it’s in chapter 1.
          The idea of the Son of God is a distinctly Jewish/Hebrew concept. I.e., the king of Israel is temporarily “given” the title as God’s Regent, to the nation, and the nation’s representative to God. As Dr. B, states of.
          The idea of the Son of Man, as we find in Daniel 7:13, and all throughout Ezekiel, according to Dr. B, is not that of a human being, or offspring to a man– as used in Ezekiel. In the Daniel 7 passage, Dr. B is stating that is definitively a Divine Being that is “like unto a Son of man…”
          This now gives us two… not one, but two distinct Divine Beings. One is the Ancient of Days, and the other is this son of man, who has dominion over the earth, forever. This places the idea of Jesus’ divinity, or Deity squarely as a Jewish/Hebrew construct. Not Greek, not pagan, but purely Israeli.

          And on the page I’m reading right now, Dr. B’s perspective is stating that it’s not that the Jews had a hard time with the idea of the Son of Man being Divine, but that Jesus was that particular Son of Man, promised by God, to Daniel– Daniel 7:13-14.
          Again, I cannot speak highly enough of this book. I may change my mind as I get further into it, but the ideas of Jesus’ divinity he’s developing here as being purely Jewish/Hebrew/Israelite, and not Goyim.

          In Christ,
          SteveB.

          • Barbara LeFevre

            Dale and Andybob~

            I was also wondering if we could begin this part of our dialogue as a new thread. With all of us going back and forth, it’s getting crazy wondering where to post things.

            Thanks!
            Barbara

        • Barbara LeFevre

          Dale and Andybob~

          Thanks, again, for your prayers. I’m not on top of it, but I am much better than yesterday, and I thank God for that, so I want to begin writing my response to you. You’ll notice that I addressed both of you. Because you both hold to the same doctrine with regard to the nature of God, I thought it would be a lot less confusing and time consuming if I wrote both of you in one response. I hope that’s okay. Otherwise, I will just get too overwhelmed.

          I want to address as many of your concerns as I can, so it may take several days. Dale, on the 13th you wrote, “See my blogs on “what is the doctrine of the Trinity” in which I prove from the Bible that Jesus was not God nor worshipped as God nor is there any Trinity! No one as of yet has been able to refute anything I said.” Because you (and Andybob) have written so much, is there a specific day or post that you were referring to when you wrote this comment? I don’t want to miss the bigger or finer points you are making, but I also don’t want to go back and forth through all the responses that both of you have posted over those several days. I’m sure you understand.

          Thanks and I’ll be awaiting your response!
          Barbara

      • Dale

        Answer on Daniel 7:9-10,13-15

        1.First, this verse still must be interpreted in the light of all the clear verses that say God is one and that show Jesus was a man and not God; and that God, Yahweh, dwelt in him and was manifested through him. There is no scriptures in the Old Testament that mentions or even hints at a so-called preexistent Christ. We do not see a preexistent Christ anywhere. Christ did not exist until he was born (Mat 1:1).

        2. No one can exist before they existed. This is non-sensical. It does not make any sense what- so-ever. God said we are to reason out things according to the Word of God (Isaiah 1:8). God wants us to use reasoning and logic to come to a judgment. To say a person existed before they exist is illogical and defies all common sense.

        3.(Dan 7:9-10,13-14 KJV)

        9 I beheld till the thrones were cast down, and the Ancient of days did sit, whose garment was white as snow, and the hair of his head like the pure wool: his throne was like the fiery flame, and his wheels as burning fire.
        10 A fiery stream issued and came forth from before him: thousand thousands ministered unto him, and ten thousand times ten thousand stood before him: the judgment was set, and the books were opened.
        13 I saw in the night visions, and, behold, one like the Son of man came with the clouds of heaven, and came to the Ancient of days, and they brought him near before him.
        14 And there was given him dominion, and glory, and a kingdom, that all people, nations, and languages, should serve him: his dominion is an everlasting dominion, which shall not pass away, and his kingdom that which shall not be destroyed.

        Reading in part from the Bible scholar Donald Lee Barnett:

        “This unique man spoken of in Daniel 7 is the same spoken of in Daniel 8, 10, and 12. It is the same description the prophet Ezekiel gives of the man who sits on a throne being born aloft by the 4 cherubim. The man represents Christ Jesus (in the future) and the Cherubim and saints. Christ is also seen in Revel chapter one in a way similar to the Book of Daniel and Ezekiel.

        “Sometimes angles stood in for Christ who was not born yet as in Daniel 10 who gives Daniel the revelation in chapter 11-12

        “But this cannot be Jesus in the time of the Old Testament Scriptures (called the pre-incarnate Christ) because Jesus didn’t live at the time that the Old Testament Scriptures were penned; He was born near the close of the Old Testament age in Bethlehem (hundreds of years after the last of the Old Testament was penned).

        “Christ had not yet been born, so it was an angel that stood in for Christ.

        “But in Daniel’s day, an angel had to stand in for Christ and war against the chief Prince demon of Persia (but in the vision, the man in linen was not an angel, but a representation of the future Son of God).

        “In the Old Covenant, Yahweh sometimes manifested Himself as an angel of the Lord, and otherwise as a man.

        “And angels (at times) stood in for God Himself as they manifested themselves in glorious splendor; other times they manifested themselves as men.

        “And thus, in the vision, this one in the form of a man was depicting Jesus (in a greater end-time fulfillment), the one who God ordained would take the place of fallen Lucifer (once the light-giver, even the cherub that covereth, for He will cover man’s sins (as the Mercy Seat did) and give them spiritual light from God, the source of all light.

        “That being was not a pre-incarnate Christ, but only a vision of Christ after He became the Jewish Messiah and the Savior of the World!

        “The man that was talking to Daniel about the vision – was prophesying events that would be fulfilled shortly after Daniel’s death; and also events that would not be fulfilled until the last days.

        “This angel (of Daniel’s day) that was standing in for the man clothed in linen (in the vision), was not just a created angel! – HE WAS AN ANGELIC THEOPHANY, STANDING IN FOR JESUS (who was yet to come)! [THEOPHANY = MANIFESTATION OF DEITY]

        “God took a strong warrior angel and manifested Himself thru him (to represent Jesus who would be made higher than the angels who would worship Him).

        “In the vision, this one (in the end-time fulfillment) was Christ; but at the time of Daniel, he was a theophany of God thru a strong angel that God spoke thru and sent Michael the Archangel to help him war against the demonic Prince spirit of Persia.”

        4. This is a vision, not a literal happening. This is what Daniel saw in a vision concerning future events. Daniel received many visions of the future. Daniel was not being visited by some preexistent being called God the son! It had not happened in time.

        5. Jesus did not exist (except in the mind of God by foreknowledge) until he was born (Mat 1:1KJV). GENERATION (KJV) is GENESIS [Greek] which means the source, origin, or beginning of Jesus Christ. There was a time when Jesus did not exist.

        6. How do you get “son of man” referring to deity “God the son.”? Jesus over and over again said he was the son of man, that is, he was a full human being from Mary. He also said he was the son of God, meaning God was his literal Father who created the male sperm that impregnated Mary to bring forth Christ. Nowhere did Jesus ever say he was “God the son.”

        7. Reading form “God is one” by Graeser, Lynn, and Schoenheit, page 442:

        The “ancient of Days” is Yahweh. Note his description as a man [God is an invisible Spirit, which all Jews knew (Num 23:19; Jeremiah 23:23-24; Psalms 51:11)]. Into his presence comes “a son of man” who is given authority and dominion. It is quite universally agreed among Christians that the “ancient of days” is God the Father, and the “son of man” is Jesus Christ, who receives his authority from God. Note that in this passage there is no hint of the Trinity. There is no “Holy Spirit” and no indication that the “son of man” is co-equal or co-eternal with the Father. On the contrary, while God is called the “ancient of days” a title befitting His eternal nature, Christ is called “a son of man, “ meaning one who is born by human parents [more correctly, born of Mary]. This prophecy is one of many that shaped the Jewish belief about their Messiah: he was not foretold as “God in the flesh,” but rather as man like unto themselves who would received special honor and authority from God.”

        8. Thank you for mention Dr Boyarin’s book “The Jewish Gospels, but no thanks. I have not read his book.

        Boyain says: “The ideas of Trinity and incarnation, or certainly the germs of those ideas, were already present among Jewish believers well before Jesus came on the scene to incarnate in himself, as it were, those theological notions and take up his messianic calling.”

        He believes the idea of the Trinity was already believed by the Jews but he has no proof of this. Boyain is a lone Jew with his own wild interpretation. Other Jews do not hold to his views. In fact one of the biggest stumbling blocks of the Jews coming to Christ is still the doctrine of the Trinity. The Jews believe the Trinity is polytheism.

        One author commenting on his book says he assumes 2 thrones, which is a pure assumption and forgets about the Holy Spirit.

        One of the worse sources you can go to get Bible understanding has to be Jewish commentators. They know nothing about the Bible. Paul said there is a veil of darkness over the Jews whenever they read the law and Jesus said he that has not the son has not the father. Paul said the Jews have been cut off till the time of the fullness of the Gentiles. The Jews are not God’s chosen people because they have rejected their Messiah King, Jesus Christ.

        You can believe his book if you want to but where is his proof? One of the easiest ways to get deceived is read all these authors who claim there is a Trinity in the Old Testament or the Jews had a concept of a Trinity. In my opinion, some of these authors are either dishonest or lying and you can get deceived by opening up to their books. The Word of God is sufficient to find truth. If there was a trinity in the Old testament it would be clearly shown but it is not.

        9. The son of man was given authority and an everlasting kingdom. It implies by someone greater. If he were God the son, he would be equal with God the father and wouldn’t need him to give him authority and an everlasting kingdom for he would already have it as a coequal and co-eternal God.

        10. The Athanasin Creed (500AD)

        “So the Father is God, the Son is God, and the Holy Spirit is God. And yet they are not three gods, but one God.

        “So likewise the Father is Lord, the Son Lord, and the Holy Spirit Lord. And yet not three lords, but one Lord.

        “For as we are compelled by the Christian verity to acknowledge each Person by Himself to be both God and Lord, so we are also forbidden by the catholic religion to say that there are three gods or three lords.

        “And in the Trinity none is before or after another; none is greater or less than another, but all three Persons are co-eternal together and co-equal. So that in all things, as is aforesaid, the Unity in Trinity and the Trinity in Unity is to be worshipped.”

        So if each one is fully God by himself, then you have 3 gods, which is polytheism. But we can’t say that, so let say they are all one God. I know this is illogical and contrary to math but if anyone rebuts us, we’ll just say it’s a mystery or no one can really understand God. If they bring up the logical, reasonable fact that 1+1+1 = 3, we’ll change the formula to 1x1x1= 1. I know this is illogical but we got to do something for the oneness saints have us, and we can’t give up our beloved Trinity that we love so much! We deceived ourselves into thinking 3 gods are one why not deceive ourselves into thinking that this is a multiplication problem instead of the obvious addition problem.

        Of course they are not saying this verbally but in effect they are saying this by their denial of logic and reason. God said come and let us reason together. It is God’s will to use logic and reason to come to truth! Three gods can’t be one God and if each one is fully God by himself then you add them up to get three Gods. This is polytheism to which the Jews today recognize.

        After the Babylonian captivity (to which Daniel was a captive), the Jews were staunch monotheists, and they vowed to never fall into polytheism again and so would not accept anything that is polytheistic even as the Jews today regarding the Trinity.

        May all desire the truth more than the traditions of man,

        Dale

        • Steve B

          Ok then.
          Seems to me you’ve already made up your mind, and no quantity, or quality of reasoning will get you to recognize another perspective than your own.
          As I did not come here to count angels on the heads of a pin, I’m going to leave you to your views.

          Until we meet in eternity.
          Numbers 6:24-26.

  • http://www.aol.com andybob

    Thank you Brother Dale!

    You have explained some of the hard scriptures that those who beilieve in a triune God have a hard time with.

    Much Agape,
    Andybob

  • steve morrow

    2 Corinthians 4:1-4
    Therefore seeing we have this ministry as we have received mercy
    we faint not
    (2)BUT HAVE RENOUNCED — the hidden things of dishonesty not walking in craftiness—NOR HANDLING THE WORD OF GOD DECEITFULLY—
    BUT BY MANIFESTATION OF THE TRUTH commending ourselves to every mans conscience in the sight of GOD
    (3)But if our gospel be hid it is hid to them that are LOST
    (4)in whom the god of this world hath blinded the minds of them which believe not —LEST THE LIGHT OF THE GLORIOUS GOSPEL OF CHRIST WHO IS THE IMAGE OF GOD SHOULD SHINE UNTO THEM

    2 Corinthians 4:5
    For we preach not ourselves BUT CHRIST JESUS THE LORD and ourselves
    your servants for JESUS sake

    John 7:16-18
    Jesus answered them and said my doctrine is not mine but HIS that sent ME
    (17)—IF—any man will do HIS will he shall know of the doctrine whether it be of GOD or whether I speak of MYSELF
    (18)HE THAT SPEAKETH OF HIMSELF SEEKETH HIS OWN GLORY
    ——–HE THAT SPEAKETH OF HIMSELF SEEKETH HIS OWN GLORY——–
    but he that seeketh HIS glory that sent him the same is true
    —–THE SAME IS TRUE AND —-NO— UNRIGHTEOUSNESS IS IN HIM—

    Proverbs8:8
    All the words of MY mouth are in righteousness
    there is nothing froward or perverse in them

    Proverbs 8:14
    Counsel is MINE and sound wisdom
    I am understanding I have strength

    Proverbs 19:9
    A false witness shall not be unpunished
    AND HE THAT SPEAKETH LIES SHALL PERISH

    John 8:43
    Why do you not understand MY words
    Even because you cannot hear MY word

    John 8:44 You are of your father the devil and the lusts of your father you will do he was a murderer from the beginning and abode not in the truth because there is no truth in him when he speaketh a lie he speaketh of his own FOR HE IS A LIAR AND THE FATHER OF IT

    John 8:45 And because I tell you the truth you believe ME not

    John 8:47
    He that is of —GOD HEARETH GODS WORDS—
    You therefore hear them not because you—ARE NOT OF GOD—

    1 John 3:10
    IN this the children of GOD are manifest and the children of the devil —WHOSOEVER—doeth not righteousness is not of GOD neither he that loveth not his brother

    Psalm 119:139
    My zeal hath consumed me because mine enemies have forgotten thy words

    Luke 8:21
    And HE answered them and said unto them
    MY mother and MY brethren are these which hear the word of GOD and do it

    John 2:27
    But the anointing which you have received —OF HIM— abideth in you and you need not that any man teach you but as the same anointing teacheth you all things —AND IS TRUTH— and is—
    NO LIE—and even as it hath taught you —SHALL ABIDE IN HIM—

    John 18:37
    Pilate therefore said unto HIM art thou a king then JESUS answered
    Thou sayest that I am A king
    To this end I was born and for this cause I came into the world
    THAT I SHOULD BARE WITNESS UNTO THE TRUTH
    EVEYONE THAT IS OF THE TRUTH HEARETH —-MY VOICE—-

    LOVING THE LORD JESUS

  • Christopher

    The Trinity is not a Biblical doctrine. Please, do not follow after the false teachings of our day, they lead to hell!

    http://www.atruechurch.info

    • http://blueletterbible.org Larry “itisfinished” Jefferson

      Are you implying/saying that trinitarians are going to hell?

  • Barbara LeFevre

    Dale and Andybob~

    I’ve begun a response to both of you, but I just want to make sure that you are coming back, so if you would let me know, I would appreciate it.

    Also, Dale, you mentioned being in pain, so perhaps that is why you haven’t posted anything today. I have prayed for you, and I hope that you will be feeling better soon!

    I hope to hear from you~

    Barbara

    • http://www.aol.com Andybob

      Still here Sister Barbara,

      I am the VP of a company and I go to college currently so I am not here everyday but do check the blogs learn and give input a couple of times a week.

      Thanks for praying for Dale, he is a good man of God and like King David in that he is a man after God’s heart and wants to do his best!

      Much agape to you and your church family!

      AB

      • Barbara LeFevre

        Andybob~

        Thanks for the response. It sounds like you are a very busy person, so I can understand why you cannot post something every day. Thank you for letting me know. As I said, I have begun a response, but I still need to work on it. In order to correctly address the issues that have been brought up on this post, I want to clarify the nature of God as you believe because with what I have learned online and on this blog, there seems to be some differences in definition. I have a few questions that I would appreciate your answering. All I want is a yes/no answer or one or two words. I do not want supporting verses or explanations. I have those from the responses you, Dale, and others have given.

        1. God is a numerical one.
        2. God can manifest Himself in different ways at the same time.
        3. Jesus is God in works and character, not in deity.
        4. God’s name is Yahweh.
        5. Jesus in only human.
        6. “We do not believe in three separate personalities in the Godhead, but we believe in three offices which are filled by one person” (Nathaniel A. Urshan, United Pentecostal Church).
        7. Wikipedia says the following of the Oneness theology:

        ~The Father 
        The title of God in parental relationship.
        ~The Son of God 
        Oneness believers consider that God was incarnate in human flesh as Jesus of Nazareth.[2] They use the biblical term “Son of God” rather than the non-biblical “God the Son”. “Son” refers to either the humanity and the deity of Jesus together, or to the humanity alone, but never to the deity alone.[7]
        ~The Holy Spirit 
        The title of God in activity as Spirit.

        Are these definitions accurate? Why or why not?

        Also included in the article is the statement, “Oneness teachers often quote a phrase used by early pioneers of the movement—”God was manifested as the Father in creation, the Son in redemption, and the Holy Ghost in emanation.”

        Is this in Wikipedia accurate?
        What is your exact understanding of the word “manifest.” I would like as succinct definition as you can give.

        I’m not trying to trick you. I’m just trying to clarify the designations that we are discussing so that we avoid a lot of confusion. Again, please don’t give me any Scripture or reasoning. All I want to know here is what you believe, not why you believe it. If you can think of an aspect of this that I have missed, please include it.

        Thank you very much!
        Barbara

        • Barbara LeFevre

          Andybob~

          I just have one more question. The Wikipedia article says of the Holy Spirit, as it pertains to your beliefs, “The title of God in activity as Spirit.” I’ve read other articles, but I am still not sure exactly what you believe the Holy Spirit to be. Is it merely an inanimate force emanating from God, or is it a third, distinct manifestation of God? Again, I just want your definition, not scriptural support.

          Thank you!
          Barbara

  • Dale

    Dear precious Babara:

    I have other commitments and not be back for a while. Andbob might want to continue. I would just answer one point at a time such as scriptures that say God is one and go from there in a new post always. I’m still hurtign but am thankful for saints prayers as I can feel God’s Spirit giving me strength. This debate is not over with and will coem up again and again. Everyoen hold on as it will be presented again. I’m includign my 2 posts as requested.

    • Barbara LeFevre

      Dale~

      Thank you for the response and the inclusion of the two posts. So much has been said that I just want to narrow things down a bit because, otherwise, it gets too overwhelming.

      I am going to continue with Andybob as the Lord leads.

      My prayer is that you will experience healing and that we will all surrender ourselves to the truth of God’s Word.

      Barbara

  • Dale

    Bible Proof Jesus was not worshipped as God

    1.The Jews all believed God was an invisible, infinite, omnipresent Spirit and his name was Yahweh. They knew full well that the visible man standing before them could not possible be God. This is one reason they took up stones to kill Jesus for they thought he was claiming to be God when he was a man which was blaspheme (John 10:31). If they really thought he could actually be God, do you honestly think they would try to stone him? No, they knew he was a man and therefore wanted to kill him. God can not die; He is an eternal invisible Spirit.

    The Jews erroneously thought that Jesus was claiming to be God, but notice Jesus answer in John 10:31-39 –NIV:

    31 Again the Jews picked up stones to stone him,
    32 but Jesus said to them, “I have shown you many great miracles from the Father. For which of these do you stone me?”
    33 “We are not stoning you for any of these,” replied the Jews, “but for blasphemy, because you, a mere man, claim to be God.”
    34 Jesus answered them, “Is it not written in your Law, ‘I have said you are gods’?
    35 If he called them ‘gods,’ to whom the word of God came–and the Scripture cannot be broken–
    36 what about the one whom the Father set apart as his very own and sent into the world? Why then do you accuse me of blasphemy because I said, ‘I am God’s Son’?
    37 Do not believe me unless I do what my Father does.
    38 But if I do it, even though you do not believe me, believe the miracles, that you may know and understand that the Father is in me, and I in the Father.”
    39 Again they tried to seize him, but he escaped their grasp.

    Jesus said he was God’s son, not God the son, and he said his Father was in him doing the miracles (V38).

    Notice the following scriptures concerning God:

    John 4:24 – God is a Spirit
    Jer 23:23-24 – God is infinite and omnipresent – Do not I fill Heaven and earth declare Yahweh
    1Ti 1:17 – God is invisible – Now to the King eternal, immortal, invisible, the only God, be honor and glory for ever and ever. Amen.
    1 Tim 6:15-16 – says no one has seen God nor can they see him
    Num 23:19 – God is not a man, that he should lie, nor a son of man, that he should change his mind.
    1Ti 2:5 – For there is one God and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus,

    From the above it should be obvious that God is invisible and cannot be seen and is not a man. Therefore it should be obvious that the man Jesus Christ was not God.

    2.The Jews were strict monotheists and only believed in one God, Yahweh Elohim, the God of the OT, who was one, and whom Jesus referred to as his father. (Deut 6:4 (NAS) – Hear, O Israel! The LORD (Yahweh) is our God, the LORD (Yahweh) is one! – which Jesus reiterated in Mark 12:29 (NAS) 29 Jesus answered, “The foremost is, ‘Hear, O Israel! The Lord our God (referring to Yahweh) is one Lord (not three). The Jews of Jesus’ day did not believe in a Trinity because they believed that God is one.

    If the Jews believed in a Trinity, they certainly would have recognized Jesus as the Second Person of the Triune God and accepted Him.

    Eph 2:20 says we are built upon the foundation of the apostles and prophets, with Christ Jesus himself as the chief cornerstone.

    Since they (the Apostles and prophets) are a part of the foundation, would not have God revealed such an important “foundational” truth of the Trinity to them if He was, in fact, a Trinity?

    Many Trinitarian Scholars admit that the doctrine of the trinity was not formally taught in the New Testament but was later formulated in the Counsels of Nicea and Chalcedon. See the article on the Trinity in the International Standard Bible Encyclopedia

    The simple apostolic teaching was that there was one God of the Old Testament and God was one. This same God dwelt in and was manifest through Christ (Acts 10:38; 2 Cor 5:19)

    Act 10:38-40 NIV
    38 how God anointed Jesus of Nazareth with the Holy Spirit and power, and how he went around doing good and healing all who were under the power of the devil, because God was with him.
    39 “We are witnesses of everything he did in the country of the Jews and in Jerusalem. They killed him by hanging him on a tree,
    40 but God raised him from the dead on the third day and caused him to be seen.

    2Co 5:19
    19 that God was reconciling the world to himself in (ἐν) Christ, not counting men’s sins against them. And he has committed to us the message of reconciliation.

    The Apostle Paul (who saw Jesus Christ and received abundant revelations from Jesus Christ (2 Cor 12:1, 7) said God was one (Gal 3:20; Ro 3:30)

    Throughout history until the present day, the Jews have been unquestionably monotheistic and have rejected Trinitarianism. In fact, the Trinity has proved to be an additional stumbling block to the Jews in believing in Jesus.

    3.Furthermore, the OT teaches that Yahweh alone is God:

    Deu 4:35 You were shown these things so that you might know that Yahweh is God; besides him there is no other.

    Neh 9:6 You alone are Yahweh. You made the heavens, even the highest heavens, and all their starry host, the earth and all that is on it, the seas and all that is in them. You give life to everything, and the multitudes of heaven worship you.

    Psa 86:10 For you are great and do marvelous deeds; you alone are God.

    Isa 43:10 “You are my witnesses,” declares Yahweh, “and my servant whom I have chosen, so that you may know and believe me and understand that I am he. Before me no god was formed, nor will there be one after me.

    This means Jesus can’t be God later on

    Isa 44:6 “This is what Yahweh says– Israel’s King and Redeemer, Yahweh Almighty: I am the first and I am the last; apart from me there is no God.

    Isa 45:5-6 I am Yahweh, and there is no other; apart from me there is no God. I will strengthen you, though you have not acknowledged me,
    6 so that from the rising of the sun to the place of its setting men may know there is none besides me. I am Yahweh, and there is no other.

    4.The people worship God after Christ did miracles, not Jesus. When ever anyone saw the miracles that Jesus did, they praised the one and only true God, Yahweh Elohim, who they knew was doing the miracles, not Jesus or a so-called God the son. They fully recognized that the one God was doing this, not the man Christ Jesus that stood before them. This is a very significant point for if Jesus was God and the one doing the miracle, they would have worshipped him but instead they worshipped the only God they knew, Yahweh Elohim.

    •Matt 15:29-31 – Jesus went up to a mountain side along the Sea of Galilee and great crowds came to him bringing the lame, blind, crippled, mute, and many others and Jesus healed them. The people who saw this were amazed and praised “God the son,” no they praised the God of Israel, which is Yahweh, for they knew that Jesus was a man and that God, the one and only God, was one actually doing the healing through Jesus. They knew that God had granted Jesus authority to pronounce healing on others, but they knew it was God, Yahweh Rapha, who was doing the actual healing.

    Luk 4:36 36 All the people were amazed and said to each other, “What is this teaching? With authority and power he gives orders to evil spirits and they come out!”

    •When Jesus healed the paralytic in Mark 2:3-12, he said in verse five: “Son, your sins are forgiven.” Some of the teachers of the law accused Jesus of blasphemy for they said who can forgive sins but God alone. But Jesus knew in his spirit what they were thinking and said: So you may know that the Son of Man has authority on earth to forgive sins, he told the paralytic to get up and take his mat and go home, and he was instantly healed. The incident amazed every one and they praised God saying: “We have never seen anything like this.” Notice they didn’t praise God the son or think of Jesus as any other than a man. If Jesus was God, he wouldn’t need authority from another God to forgive sins for God forgives all sins (2 Chronicles 7:14). Also we see in 1 Pe 2:1 that Jesus speaks to the father is our defense, that is, he mediates us to the father so that the God (the father) will forgive us of our sins (v9). Why does Jesus need to defend us to the father and intercede for us? If he was God, he could defend us and forgive us himself.

    Concerning the healing of the paralytic, Matt 9:8, LK 5:26, says that when the crowd saw this, they were filled with awe; and they praised God, who had given such authority to men (anthropos). Lk 5:26 says: Everyone was amazed and gave praise to God. They were filled with awe and said, “We have seen remarkable things today.”

    They knew Jesus was not God but yet they saw and heard Jesus speak healing to the paralytic and therefore they concluded God had given him authority because God was backing him up. They did not praise a so-called God the son but the only God they knew: Yahweh Elohim, the same one God that dwelt in and manifested himself through Christ whom Jesus said was his heavenly father.

    Note: Jesus was the visible mouth piece of God that the invisible God chose to spoke through. Jesus said he spoke only what his father gave him to speak (John 8:28) and the Bible says that only God can forgive sins (Luke 5:21). The paralytic was crying out to God more than just for physical healing. He was crying out to Yahweh to forgive him of his sins. Yahweh granted his request and revealed to Jesus (who had authority to be God’s mouth piece) to pronounce that his sins are forgiven. God not only forgave him but healed him also. What a wonderful God we serve! So there is no contradiction here.

    •When Jesus raised the widow’s son at a town called Nain (LK 7:11-17), the crowed responded in verse 16: They were all filled with awe and praised God. “A great prophet has appeared among us,” they said. “God has come to help his people.” Jesus was called Emanuel, meaning God with us. They recognized God had come to them in their prophet, Jesus Christ. They did not call him God or God the son.

    •(LK 9:37-45) When Jesus healed the demoniac son (so-called) when they came down from the mount of transfiguration, it say in verse 43: “And they were all amazed at the greatness of God.”

    •LK 13:10-13. When the crippled women who had been bound by demons for 18 years was healed by Jesus, she immediately straightened up and praised God.

    •After Jesus healed the 10 lepers, one of them came back, praising God in a loud voice “and he fell on his face at His feet, giving thanks to Him (Jesus).” And he was a Samaritan (LK 17:15-16 – NAS).

    •After Jesus was resurrected and Raptured to Heaven, the apostles did mighty miracles of healing but no one claimed them to be God no more than people claimed Jesus to be God. When Peter healed the cripple beggar in Acts chapter 3, he was arrested and brought before the Sanhedrin, and they asked him by what power or name did you do this (V 7)?

    They knew he was a man even though God flowed though him in miracle healing, and the people praised God, not Peter. God flowing through us doesn’t make us any more God than it did Christ.

    •Whenever Jesus did any mighty miracle, nowhere do we see the people worship and praise God the son, rather they always praise Yahweh Elohim, the one and only God for God is one, not three.

    •Mark 3:16 — at another time when Jesus was in the synagogue, he healed a man with a shriveled hand but some of the hard hearted Jews (Pharisees) were watching him to see if he would heal the man on the Sabbath day. Jesus looked about them in anger and said: “Is it lawful on the Sabbath to do good or to do evil, to save life or to kill?” Then he told the man to stretch out his hand and it was instantly restored. The Pharisees then went out to plot with the Herodians on how they might kill Jesus. LK 6:11 says they were furious.

    They would never attempt this if the Jews had any type of a concept that Jesus was anything other than a man such as God or God the son. It is untenable that they would even think they could kill God or God the son. The fact that they plotted to kill him proves they believed he was only a man and not what he claimed to be, that is, the son of God

    •Matthew 21:23-27 – While Jesus was teaching in the Temple courts, the chief priests and the elders of the people came to him and asked by what authority he was doing these things (referring to his teaching and miracles of healing that he did –v14), and who gave you this authority, they asked.

    If he were God the son or God in any sense, they would know by what authority Jesus was doing these things. But they saw Jesus as a man (highly anointed of God), claiming he was the son of God, sent by his father to be the Messiah, which the Jewish leaders did not believe. They saw him as just the son of Joseph and Mary, not the son of God

    But notice Jesus’ answer in verses 24-27:

    24 Jesus replied, “I will also ask you one question. If you answer me, I will tell you by what authority I am doing these things.
    25 John’s baptism–where did it come from? Was it from heaven, or from men?” They discussed it among themselves and said, “If we say, ‘From heaven,’ he will ask, ‘Then why didn’t you believe him?’
    26 But if we say, ‘From men’–we are afraid of the people, for they all hold that John was a prophet.”
    27 So they answered Jesus, “We don’t know.” Then he said, “Neither will I tell you by what authority I am doing these things.

    In other words, Jesus authority came from God just like John the Baptist’s authority came from God. John was sent by God into the Ministry but this didn’t make him God anymore than Jesus who was also sent by God into the Ministry and given authority by God. Jesus was claiming that God gave him this authority not that he was God or God the son.

    •Matthew 21:4-21 – During Jesus triumphal entry into Jerusalem, the crowds responded by shouting: hosanna to the son of David! Blessed is he who comes in the name of the Lord (referring to Yahweh). Hosanna in the highest! (parallel = Mk 11:7-10)

    Verse 10 – when Jesus entered Jerusalem, the whole city was stirred and ask: “who is this?”

    Verse 11 — the crowds answer: “This is Jesus, the prophet of Nazareth in Galilee.”

    None of them said this is Jesus, God the son, but Jesus the son of David, the prophet from Nazareth in Galilee. Notice that they shouted “hosanna in the highest.”

    Hosanna = an exclamation of praise that literally means save now, which proves the name of the Lord is Yahweh. They were praising God, the only one God they knew, Yahweh Elohim, who is one. If Jesus were God, they would be praising him, but they recognize Jesus was not God but only God’s son.

    In verses 4-5, we see Jesus is referred to as their King and the triumphal entry was a fulfillment of the prophecy of Isaiah 62:1, Pas 118:25-26, and Zechariah 9:9, where Jesus is called both their King and Savior.

    Psa 118:25-26 25 O Yahweh, save us; O Yahweh, grant us success.
    26 Blessed is he who comes in the name of Yahweh. From the house of Yahweh we bless you.

    •Mark 5:21-34 — we see that Jesus healed the woman who had internal bleeding and tried to get to Jesus but couldn’t because of the crowd, so she crawled on her hands and knees and touch the hem of Jesus’ garment. But Jesus didn’t know who touched him and yet he realized healing from God flowed through him so he asked: “Who touched me?” If he were God the son, he would have known who touched him.

    •John 10:33 says the Unbelieving Jews were ready to stone Jesus for they thought he was claiming to be God in John 10:33. This was their false perception for Jesus never claimed this. In fact he refuted this by saying:

    Joh 10:34-38 (NIV) 34 Jesus answered them, “Is it not written in your Law, ‘I have said you are gods’?
    35 If he called them ‘gods,’ to whom the word of God came–and the Scripture cannot be broken–
    36 what about the one whom the Father set apart as his very own and sent into the world? Why then do you accuse me of blasphemy because I said, ‘I am God’s Son’?
    37 Do not believe me unless I do what my Father does.
    38 But if I do it, even though you do not believe me, believe the miracles, that you may know and understand that the Father is in me, and I in the Father.”

    The Jews saw the man Christ Jesus, and they knew he couldn’t possible be God for God was an infinite, omnipresent, invisible Spirit. They had no concept of a “God the Son” or Trinity. But they thought Jesus was claiming to be God, but Jesus said even the scriptures call you Elohim (Psa 82:6 6 “I said, ‘You are “gods”; you are all sons of the Most High.’)
    The scripture calls us Elohim and sons of the most high, that is, we represent the Most High God.

    These are very strong evidences to prove Jesus was not God but a full human being (with a human body, human soul, and human spirit) and that he was indeed the Messiah to come, the son of God.

    5.The meaning of the word worship in the NT:

    Note: There are a few places in the gospel where Jesus is said to be worshipped (Lk 24:52; Matt14:33; 28:19; John 9:38) But Jesus was never worshipped spiritually as God or in the same way as they worship God. The Greek word in every case is = proskuneo {pros-koo-neh’-o} 4352, which has a wide variety of meaning.

    Strong’s defines = 1) to kiss the hand to (towards) one, in token of reverence, showing respect 2) among the Orientals, esp. the Persians, to fall upon the knees and touch the ground with the forehead as an expression of profound reverence 3) in the NT by kneeling or prostration to do homage (to one) or make obeisance, whether in order to express respect or to make supplication 3a) used of homage shown to men and beings of superior rank 3a1) to the Jewish high priests 3a2) to God 3a3) to Christ 3a4) to heavenly beings 3a5) to demons

    So it means to show reverence or homage or obeisance or honor or respect and is translated that way by some translations:

    Mat 14:33 (MacDonald’s Idiomatic Translation of the New Testament, 2008 – MIT): Those in the boat bowed to him reverently and said, “You are truly God’s son!”

    Luke 24:52 (DBY) And *they*, having done him homage, returned to Jerusalem with great joy,

    Joh 9:38 (MIT) He said, “I believe, Lord,” and he assumed a posture of deep reverence before him. New World Translation = And he did obeisance to him.

    Matthew 28:9) Mary Magdalena and another Mary greeted him, took hold of his feet, and worshiped him, meaning they showed him great honor and respect

    Jesus has been made our Lord, so of course we will give him reverence, obeisance, and homage and great honor for he is our King, our savior, our master, and the one who gave his soul for us, but we will give our spiritual worship to God alone. In Heaven we will not worship Jesus as a glorified son of God for we will also be glorified sons of God.

    John 4:24 and Philippians 3:3 say: we worship God in spirit, and it is only God that deserves our spiritual worship for he is the father of spirits (Hebrews 12:9)

    This is not depreciating Christ for he was the only pure man ever born of woman, and he was totally surrendered to God his heavenly father, and he obeyed him in all things. And in the New Jerusalem, although God will be the light, Jesus will be the lamp that God shines through. He will still be God’s contact man, God’s representative, the visible manifestation of God when God wants to manifest himself and speak.

    We will never see God in heaven except in Jesus and in one another. But we shall freely experience him in our spirit way much more than we do here, in a very full measure as God intended when he created man. We will fully satisfy God as we couldn’t do if we were created perfectly and could not sin.

    Jesus was never worship like they worship God. The open hearted knew Jesus was the Messiah, the literal son of God and that God was dwelling in him and doing mighty miracles in him. Yes they would do great obeisance to Jesus when God flowed through him to heal them. They were very thankful to Jesus for allowing God to flow through him in such fantastic miracles and healing such of which they have never seen or heard before.

    6.Isreal was quite aware of God flowing through men and doing fantastic miracles. They all knew of how God used and flowed through Moses, Elijah, Elisha, Samson, and others and now they saw Christ, another man, in which God flowed in unprecedented ways, so-much-so, it was as though he were God to the people for everything he said and did, Yahweh Elohim backed up his words and actions because Jesus did everything that his father told him to do. He faithfully obeyed the Spirit of his heaven father that dwelt in him (John 14:10), leading and guiding him and telling him what to do (John 5:30). So Israel worshipped God when they saw the miracles of Christ (not Jesus) for they knew where the miracles came from. They knew it did not come from Christ but from the invisible omnipresent non-diminishable Spirit of Yahweh Elohim who dwelt in Christ and was manifested in and through Christ.

    7.We are called to follow in the foot steps of Jesus and become like Jesus Christ but this would be totally impossible if he were God.

    Jesus commanded us to be perfect like his heaven father in Heaven

    (Mat 5:48 NIV) Be perfect, therefore, as your heavenly Father is perfect.

    Many OT saints walked with God and achieved a good measure of righteousness before God without having Christ or the NC promises; how much more can we walk in holiness now under the New Covenant of grace brought by Jesus Christ? (Heb 9:14)

    But how can we; we are not God? If Jesus was perfect because he was God, then he can’t be our example to follow, neither can we be perfected!

    Jesus Christ was made perfect and because of his perfection, he was able to make a way for us to be perfected by his sinless sacrifice on the cross for our sins and by his example that he gave us to follow. Also Jesus is now glorified and sits on the right hand of God, highly exalted, and now intercedes for us to the Father that we maybe all that God intended us to be. By being Born-Again and filled with the Holy Spirit and walking in the Spirit, manifesting the fruits of the Spirit, and pursuing God as in a veritable chase, we too can become experientially righteous like Christ was. When we became Born-Again we were not only forgiven but made legally righteous. Now by walking in the Spirit, seeking God with all our hearts and loving him to the full and obeying Him in everything, we too can become experientially righteous.

    Christ was perfected:

    Jesus grew in favor with God and man (Luke 2:52). If Jesus was God why does he need to grow in favor with God? Did he grow in favor with himself? Did God the son grow in favor with God the Father, if so, how is he coequal?

    Jesus learned obedience from the things he suffered (Heb 5:8). This does not mean he was ever disobedient but his relationship with his father become stronger and deeper as he obeyed and did the will of his father each day. Jesus said my meat was to do the will of my father and to finish his work (john 4:34-KJV). Jesus often went without food and sleep in order to do God’s will and to pray. He would often get up early and pray and then minister to the people all day long till he was very tired. He suffered horrible in the garden of Gethsemane and in his crucifixion but said not my will but thy will be done! His love for God grew each step of obedience in doing God’s will every single day. None of this makes any sense if he was God! How can the almighty God suffer in any way? Did he learn obedience to himself?

    Jesus was faithful to the one who appointed him (Heb 3:1). Was God faithful to himself? Who appointed Jesus, was it not God the father who sent him into the ministery (john 5:36)? Jesus finished the works that his father gave him to do and on the cross he said, it is finished.

    Jesus became perfected (Heb 7:28). God is already perfect! Jesus’ life of obedience and love for Yahweh brought him to a state of perfection by end of his life. He was worthy to be our sin sacrifice as the spotless Lamb of God, and he gave his soul for us on the cross, dying for our sins that we may be forgiven as we repent and live for God.

    The saints are perfected in Christ:

    Now because Jesus was made perfect, he made a way for us to come in the presence of God by his sacrifice of Calvary (his righteousness being legally imputed to us by God till we can come into experiential righteous and holiness by living and walking in God’s Spirit). Now we too can become perfect by God’s grace as we live like Jesus lived and love God like Jesus loved God and obey God and Jesus in everything for God has made this same Jesus our lord and Christ [anointed one] (Acts 2:36). God has highly exalted Christ and given him a name above every name (Acts 2:33; 5:31; Phil 2:9; Heb 7:26) and has put him over God’s church to rule and reign under God (Mat 16:18; Eph 5:23; Col 1:18; Heb 1:1-8 (Note: the correct reading of verse 8 is “Your throne is God,” meaning Jesus has been given authority by God to rule over His church. The son is sitting on the authority of God as though God were the throne (a figure of speech, a metonymy, where one word stand in for another word. Here the throne is standing in for the authority of God). In Revelation chapters 2-3 we see the glorified Christ ruling over his churches).

    Just some scriptures to illustrate this point:

    (Mat 19:21 NIV)
    21 Jesus answered, “If you want to be perfect, go, sell your possessions and give to the poor, and you will have treasure in heaven. Then come, follow me.”

    (Rom 15:5 NIV)
    5 May the God who gives endurance and encouragement give you a spirit of unity among yourselves as you follow Christ Jesus,

    (1Co 11:1 NIV)
    Follow my example, as I follow the example of Christ.

    (1Pe 2:21 NIV)
    21 To this you were called, because Christ suffered for you, leaving you an example, that you should follow in his steps.

    (Heb 2:10-2 NIV)
    10 In bringing many sons to glory, it was fitting that God, for whom and through whom everything exists, should make the author of their salvation perfect through suffering.
    11 Both the one who makes men holy and those who are made holy are of the same family. So Jesus is not ashamed to call them brothers.
    12 He says, “I will declare your name to my brothers; in the presence of the congregation I will sing your praises.”
    13 And again, “I will put my trust in him.” And again he says, “Here am I, and the children God has given me.”
    14 Since the children have flesh and blood, he too shared in their humanity so that by his death he might destroy him who holds the power of death–that is, the devil–
    15 and free those who all their lives were held in slavery by their fear of death.
    16 For surely it is not angels he helps, but Abraham’s descendants.
    17 For this reason he had to be made like his brothers in every way, in order that he might become a merciful and faithful high priest in service to God, and that he might make atonement for the sins of the people.
    18 Because he himself suffered when he was tempted, he is able to help those who are being tempted.

    (Heb 5:7-10 NIV)
    7 During the days of Jesus’ life on earth, he offered up prayers and petitions with loud cries and tears to the one who could save him from death, and he was heard because of his reverent submission.
    8 Although he was a son, he learned obedience from what he suffered
    9 and, once made perfect, he became the source of eternal salvation for all who obey him
    10 and was designated by God to be high priest in the order of Melchizedek.

    (Heb 10:14-22 NIV)
    14 because by one sacrifice he has made perfect forever those who are being made holy.
    15 The Holy Spirit also testifies to us about this. First he says:
    16 “This is the covenant I will make with them after that time, says the Lord. I will put my laws in their hearts, and I will write them on their minds.”
    17 Then he adds: “Their sins and lawless acts I will remember no more.”
    18 And where these have been forgiven, there is no longer any sacrifice for sin.
    19 Therefore, brothers, since we have confidence to enter the Most Holy Place by the blood of Jesus,
    20 by a new and living way opened for us through the curtain, that is, his body,
    21 and since we have a great priest over the house of God,
    22 let us draw near to God with a sincere heart in full assurance of faith, having our hearts sprinkled to cleanse us from a guilty conscience and having our bodies washed with pure water.

    (Heb 12:2 NIV)
    2 Let us fix our eyes on Jesus, the author and perfecter of our faith, who for the joy set before him endured the cross, scorning its shame, and sat down at the right hand of the throne of God.

    (Jud 1:24 KJV)
    24 Now unto him that is able to keep you from falling, and to present you faultless before the presence of his glory with exceeding joy,

    (Phi 2:12-13 KJV)
    12 Wherefore, my beloved, as ye have always obeyed, not as in my presence only, but now much more in my absence, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling.
    13 For it is God which worketh in you both to will and to do of his good pleasure.

    Paul said in Phil 3:10-15:

    (Phi 3:10-15 NIV)
    10 I want to know Christ and the power of his resurrection and the fellowship of sharing in his sufferings, becoming like him in his death,
    11 and so, somehow, to attain to the out resurrection from among the dead.
    12 Not that I have already obtained all this, or have already been made perfect, but I press on to take hold of that for which Christ Jesus took hold of me.
    13 Brothers, I do not consider myself yet to have taken hold of it. But one thing I do: Forgetting what is behind and straining toward what is ahead,
    (Phi 3:14 NAS) I press on toward the goal for the prize of the upward call of God in Christ Jesus.

    15 All of us who are mature should take such a view of things. And if on some point you think differently, that too God will make clear to you.

    Paul was indeed already saved but was pressing on for something greater: to know Christ and the fellowship of his suffering to attain a greater resurrection than what others will receive.

  • Dale

    Summary thoughts:

    1. When Jesus asked his disciples who do men say I the son of man am in Matt 16:13-20 KJV, they answered: “Some say you are John the Baptist, some Elias (Elijah) and others Jeremiah or one of the prophets.” Not one said he was God the son. Jesus then asked his disciples: “Whom do you say I am?”

    Thomas immediately jumped up and said: “Why, you’re God the son, second person of the Trinity; everyone knows that!” No, Thomas did not receive the revelation of who Jesus was, neither was he calling Jesus God in John 20:28 as a divine revelation. Instead, God revealed to PETER who Jesus was: “And Simon Peter answered and said, ‘Thou art the Christ, the Son of the living God’” (Mat 16:16 KJV). Notice he did not say you are God the son or God but the son of God, the Christ (which means anointed one). He was saying Jesus was the literal son of God, the Messiah to come, Christ, the anointed one (anointed by someone greater, that is, by God himself, Yahweh Elohim). Jesus said he was blessed for this revelation because it came from God Himself. If Jesus was God or God the son, surely God would have revealed this to Peter since the purpose of the revelation was to REVEAL WHO CHRIST WAS. Furthermore, God the son doesn’t need God the Father to reveal to Peter who he was. He could just reveal that himself to Peter! This is powerful proof Jesus was not God or God the son or that the Jews believed in any kind of a Trinity! If Jesus was truly God or God the son, then God the father would have revealed that to Peter, but he did not!

    In John 20:28, God was NOT revealing to Thomas who Jesus was. He had already done that with Peter, so there was no need to give the revelation again. The revelation Peter gave was Christ was the son of God, not God the son.

    “My Lord and My God.” You cannot tell from the Greek word “and” if John was relating to us that Thomas made 2 statements: one, “My Lord” and the other statement, “My God” OR that Thomas said “My Lord and “my God” all in one breath. In either case, the context and internal evidence show that Thomas was making 2 statements; one address to Jesus and the other addressed to God, Yahweh Elohim. These are two abbreviated statements (Common in the Bible) that are not complete. First Thomas addressed Jesus and said “My Lord” (that is, my master) and then he addressed the invisible Spirit of God and said “My God” (not in vain, but in utter astonishment). He could have said, first to Jesus: “My Lord, it’s really you, you have been risen from the dead just like you said” and then in the same breath or with a pause said to Yahweh: “My God, it is true, you did raise Jesus from the dead.”

    Thomas was probably looking at Jesus when he made both statements but where was Thomas to look when he made the statement concerning God since God was an invisible Spirit? It doesn’t matter if he was looking at Jesus when he made this statement because he was still referring to the invisible Spirit of God. If fact, because the invisible Spirit of God was dwelling in Christ and manifesting Himself through Christ, it would be quite natural to look at Jesus when he made both statements. Jesus was the focal point. God’s anointing was on Christ for his ministry. Christ was the representation and mouth piece of God that God chose to speak through and manifest Himself through. So why would he not be looking at Christ when he made the statement that was in reference to God?

    The context proves that the main revelation was JESUS BEING RASIED FROM THE DEAD, not a so-called divine revelation of Thomas. God does not give divine revelations to those who are doubting him and do not believe the testimony of the others concerning Christ’s resurrection as Thomas did. God gives divine revelation to the faithful believers such as Peter and later to the Apostle Paul. Doubting Thomas was about to lose his salvation if he did not repent of unbelief for one of the requirements of salvation is to believe in the literal resurrection of Jesus from the dead (Rom 10:9). Thomas was amazed and literally shocked out of his unbelief when Christ appeared to him and showed Thomas his side and hands to which Thomas felt. He was amazed, astonished, shocked out of his unbelief and literally beside himself for Jesus not only appeared thru locked doors but reveled to Thomas his statement of unbelief said earlier behind closed doors and had Thomas feel his wounds. After Thomas felt Jesus wounds, he knew he was not dreaming, and God had actually raised Jesus from the dead and therefore in great exclamation with great emotion of astonishment said: “My Lord” and he also said “My God.”

    The vast majority of translations translate this as an exclamation, not as an address of divine revelation as many falsely claim. In fact, I only found a few translations out of dozens of translations that translate this without an exclamation point, such as KJV, Young’s, Darby, and few others. A few examples of the more well known translations who translate this properly as an exclamation are: HCSB (Holman Christian Standard Bible- 2004), BBE (Bible in Basic English- 1949/64), NAB (New American Bible-1991), (NASB) (New American Standard Bible-1971), NASU (New American Standard Update-1995), NIV (New International Version-1984), NKJV (new King James Version- 1982), (NLT) New Living Translations, both the early and later version-1996/2004 ), RH (Rotherham’s Emphasized Bible-1959 ), NW (New World- 1970), Berkeley- 1969, C L (Concordant Literal-1976), RSV (Revised Standard Version- 1952), and NRSV (New Revised Standard Version-1989) and a host of others.

    The Greek here is the nominative of exclamation (according to Danna and Mantey in their book A Manual Grammar of the Greek New Testament) not the nominative being used for a vocative as ATR Robertson (a Trinitarian) falsely claims. Thomas was a strict monotheistic Jew and like Christ believed that there was one God and that God was one (Duet 6:4). He knew God was an invisible Spirit that filled Heaven and earth (1 Kings 8:27 KJV; Jer 23:23-24 KJV; Psa 51:11 KJV), so he knew the man standing before him, howbeit resurrected, couldn’t possibly be God. The Bible teaches that Yahweh Elohim alone was God (Duet 4:35 NIV; Neh 9:6 NIV; Psa 86:10 NIV; Isa 43:10 NIV; 44:6 NIV; 45:5-6 NIV) and this is what the Jews believed for whenever Christ did any miracle, the people praised and worshipped Yahweh Elohim and not Jesus, even though at times they showed him great reverence.

    Jesus called Yahweh Elohim his father (john 14:28) and said that He dwelt in him and was the one doing the works through him (John 14:10)

    Notice the conclusion of John in John 20:31:

    (John 20:31KJV) But these are written, that ye might believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God; and that believing ye might have life through his name.

    If the main revelation was Thomas’ so-called revelation that Jesus was God, then why didn’t John state that in his conclusion? Instead he stated that Jesus was the SON OF GOD, the same thing Jesus said about himself over and over again. In fact nowhere did Jesus ever call himself God. In fact, nowhere did anyone ever call Jesus God or God the son!

    Much more can be said but the conclusion is Thomas was not calling Jesus God as many falsely claim.

    2. Jesus always referred to himself as the son of God or the son of man. Never did he call himself God or God the son, nor did any of the Jews refer to him as God.

    3. Not one Old Testament prophecy concerning the Messiah says he was God or God the son. There are several prophecies that show Jesus would appear to be taking on attributes of Yahweh as a figure of speech and metonymies (in which one word stands in for another word like the words “the brass” refers to “military officers”) because Yahweh would indwell in him and manifest himself through him but not one Old Testament scroll says he would be God or a so-called God the son. For example; In Isaiah 7:14 says a virgin shall conceive and bear a son, and shall call his name Immanuel. Yet we have no record of anyone calling him that. God (Yahweh Elohim) had come back to his own people in the visible representation and purpose and person of Jesus because when they saw the miracles, love, teaching, and power of God through Christ, the open hearted knew that God had come back to them in their Messiah, who was the visible representation and mouth piece of the invisible God, the body and soul that God decide to dwell in and manifest himself through. The same can be said of Isaiah 9:6; 35:4-6; and so forth.

    (Act 3:22 KJV) For Moses truly said unto the fathers, A prophet shall the Lord your God raise up unto you of your brethren, like unto me; him shall ye hear in all things whatsoever he shall say unto you. ESV = Moses said, ‘The Lord God will raise up for you a prophet like me from your brothers. You shall listen to him in whatever he tells you. (Act 3:22 ESV 2011)
    God said he would raise up a prophet like Moses from you brothers. God raised up Jesus like unto Moses, a humble man sold out to God who God spoke to face to face and manifested his great power through and led God’s people through the wilderness of this life to the promise land (heaven). If they accepted his authority from God and followed him, they would have gotten safely into the promise land of Heaven. God moving fantastically through Moses in doing mighty miracles didn’t make him God any more than God doing fantastic miracles in Christ. Both had the authority and leading of God to do what they did, and the people either accepted them or rejected them. If he were God the son, in what way was he like their brethren and like unto Moses who was a humble human being sold out to God?

    God came upon the Virgin Mary and expressed Himself again by means of His logos to bring forth Christ (John 1:14) who was a full human being with a body, human soul, and human spirit. God supernaturally created the male sperm, selecting the qualities he wanted and chose the literal egg of Mary to impregnate her to bring forth Christ. This averted the curse of Jechoniah and made it so Christ would be born without a conscience or fallen nature and be like the first Adam before he sinned. Jesus is called the second Adam (1 Cor 15:45) and is compared to the first Adam in Romans chapter 5. This helps explain why Jesus never sinned as a little child or young man.

    He was in constant communion with His heavenly father and grew stronger in love and obedience to Him day by day until the day finally arrived for him to be our Messiah. He was growing, learning, doing good, helping others, obeying his parents, teaching his brothers and sisters and others, communing with God, raising his other brothers and sisters as the eldest child, helping his father in his carpentry shop, and so forth for 30 long years. He wanted to get married like everyone else but knew the scripture spoke of him giving up his life and being horribly tortured to death, so he dare not open up to Romance. He lived to please God and do only his will. Although the scriptures say nothing of his early life, you can be sure he was busy for God and constantly learning and communing with God. His love and faith grew greatly over these years. All this time was necessary preparation time for the ministry for Jesus was a full human being that had to walk with God, obey Him, and love him like everyone else, only he did it perfectly and to the full.

    4. The Jews were accustom to God manifesting himself through men as seen in Elijah, Samson, Elisha, Moses, Solomon, and others, and they believed their Messiah would do the same.
    (Joh 7:31 KJV) And many of the people believed on him, and said, When Christ cometh, will he do more miracles than these which this man hath done? Greek is this one. They knew the Messiah would be a man, their prophet, King, prince, and would have authority from God and be anointed by God to do mighty miracles. Jesus is called the Christ, the anointed one. God anointed Jesus above his fellows (Heb 1:9)

    (Act 10:38-43 KJV)
    38 How God anointed Jesus of Nazareth with the Holy Ghost and with power: who went about doing good, and healing all that were oppressed of the devil; for God was with him.
    39 And we are witnesses of all things which he did both in the land of the Jews, and in Jerusalem; whom they slew and hanged on a tree:
    40 Him God raised up the third day, and shewed him openly;
    41 Not to all the people, but unto witnesses chosen before of God, even to us, who did eat and drink with him after he rose from the dead.
    42 And he commanded us to preach unto the people, and to testify that it is he which was ordained of God to be the Judge of quick and dead.
    43 To him give all the prophets witness, that through his name whosoever believeth in him shall receive remission of sins.

    5. One of the major problems has to be the KJV Bible which is an average translation. Unfortunately the King James Bible translated several passages according to their theology of a Trinity and not according to the Greek. There are several poorly translated verses on the God essence that if you consult literal translations, you find out are incorrectly translated. But unfortunately it was not just the KJV but other translations did the same. An example would be the NAS, normally a literal translation. The original 1971 translation correctly translated the Greek word “ev” as “IN” in Col 1:16: “for IN him were all things created,” not “by.” But because this sounded too oneness, later editions change this to “BY” to get a Christ as creator doctrine. But the Greek does not say “BY’ but “IN” (that is, because of him or for the sake of him or on account of him or such similar idea).

    Also the KJ translators added passages that are not even in the Greek Bible called Interpolations. Interpolations are something interpolated, as a passage introduced into a text (Dictionary.com Unabridged. Retrieved July 10, 2012, from Dictionary.com website:
    http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/interpolation).

    An example is 1 John 5:7: “For there are three that bear record in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost: and these three are one. (KJV)” which is not in the Bible and most Greek manuscripts.

    Another interpolation that now has sufficient evidence to show one exists is found in Matt 28:19 – “Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost:” The Greek just says: “Go, make disciples of all the nations in my name.” There are probably other interpolations and how much there are we really don’t know at this time, but they are usually centered on the God essence issue.

    Also there is sufficient evidence now to show that Matt 28:19 is not in the Greek. The Greek just says: Go, make disciples of all the nations in my name. There are probably other Interpolations and how much, we really don’t know but they center around the God essence issue.

    If one has a willing heart to follow the Bible no matter what it says and diligently seeks God in prayer to show him the truth and carefully studies the Word of God like the Bereans, relying on the Bible scholars who have gone before you (a lot of information you can get from the Internet and blogs like this), he will come into the truth about the God essence. The problem is many are stubborn and have already made up their mind that there is a Trinity and won’t allow anyone to tell them anything different. God can’t show them the truth for they are unwilling.

    But if one would carefully study these scriptures and the context, looking at the Greek and the Greek scholars as to what the Greek says, at the context, looking at other literal translations (such as emphasized Bible by Joseph Rotherham, Concordant literal, New American Standard in spots, Numeric, The Modern reader’s Bible by Berkeley, and even the New International Version in many spots), looking at figures of speech, customs, and carefully comparing them to clear parallel verses on the subject, there is no way one could ever get these verses to refer to a Trinity. There are too many clear verses in the Bible to interpret these unclear verses as referring to a Trinity. If one would interpret these ambiguous scriptures according to the clears scriptures I gave above, he would come to the logical conclusion they cannot refer to a so-called Trinity and refer to something else. The principal of Hermeneutics say to never form a doctrine from an ambiguous difficult enigmatic lone passage of scripture but always form your doctrine from clear scripture. One should always interpret the vague difficult enigmatic scriptures in the light of the clear ones. Most will need the help of the oneness teachers and scholars. Jesus has raised up and put teachers of the Word of God over His church to teach them so they can know the Word of God and come into perfection and without them, you’re probably not going to get the answers you are looking for (Eph 4:11-15). God will show you some things, but He ordained teachers to teach His people the Word of God.

    Christ has been given authority over God‘s church and he is presently ruling over it by God’s power and Holy Spirit as we see in the book of Revelation chapters 2-3 where Jesus is seen ruling over his churches throughout the church ages (Rev 2; Rev 3). It is God through Christ who is ruling over His church.

    6. Scriptures that say God is one from the KJV:

    – (Duet 6:4 KJV) Hear, O Israel: The LORD (Yahweh) our God (Elohim) is one LORD (Yahweh):
    – (Mark 12:29 KJV ) And Jesus answered him, The first of all the commandments is, Hear, O Israel; The Lord (“Kurios” but referring to Yahweh) our God (“Theos” but referring to Elohim) is one Lord (Kurios):
    – (Mar 12:32 KJV) And the scribe said unto him, Well, Master, thou hast said the truth: for there is one God; and there is none other but he: The Greek says, “God is one”.
    – (Rom 3:30 KJV) Seeing it is one God, which shall justify the circumcision by faith, and uncircumcision through faith. But the Greek is actually, “God is one”.
    – (Jam 2:19 KJV) Thou believest that there is one God; thou doest well: the devils also believe, and tremble. Again the Greek is actually, “God is one”.
    – (Gal 3:20 KJV) Now a mediator is not a mediator of one, but God is ONE.
    – Duet 4:35 Unto thee it was shewed, that thou mightest know that the LORD (Yahweh) he is God (Elohim); there is none else beside him. This verse is clearly showing that Yahweh is Elohim, which Jesus called his Father. Also this verse clearly shows there is NONE Else, meaning only Yahweh is God not Jesus or a so-called God the Holy Spirit! There is only one god, not three gods.
    – (Isa 43:10-12 KJV)
    10 Ye are my witnesses, saith the LORD (Yahweh) , and my servant whom I have chosen: that ye may know and believe me, and understand that I am he: before me there was no God formed, neither shall there be after me.
    11 I, even I, am the LORD; and beside me there is no saviour.
    12 I have declared, and have saved, and I have shewed, when there was no strange god among you: therefore ye are my witnesses, saith the LORD, that I am God (EL).

    – (Isa 44:6-8 KJV)
    6 Thus saith the LORD the King of Israel, and his redeemer the LORD of hosts; I am the first, and I am the last; and beside me there is no God.
    8 Fear ye not, neither be afraid: have not I told thee from that time, and have declared it? ye are even my witnesses. Is there a God beside me? yea, there is no God; I know not any.
    24 Thus saith the LORD, thy redeemer, and he that formed thee from the womb, I am the LORD that maketh all things; that stretcheth forth the heavens alone; that spreadeth abroad the earth by myself.

    Yahweh said there is no god beside him and that HE alone made the heavens and earth. Therefore Col 1:16 cannot be used to say Christ created the heavens and earth, especially when the Greek does not say BY but IN.

    Now where are the scriptures that say these exact words: GOD IS THREE? There are none and yet the Bible says these exact words: GOD IS ONE. The Bible was written to impart truth. If the Bible says God is one and no where says God is three, then you can be sure God is one and not three and all the ambiguous scriptures that one uses to interpret “a trinity” must be interpreted in the light of these clear verses that clearly say GOD IS ONE. I interpret all the ambiguous scriptures in light of these clear scriptures that show God is one and that there is only one God and none other. If God was a real Trinity, he knows how to say it in the Bible but instead He clearly said He was ONE. This should end all confusion! Furthermore, there is nothing in the Hebrew or Greek to indicate a “united one.” This argument shows dishonesty and ignorance of the Hebrew and Greek. When God says he is ONE, He means HE is ONE, not three!

    7. Some very brief answers to some difficult scriptures that will enable you to look at them in a new way and get you started on studying them more to find what they mean.

    Gen 1:26 – Let us make man… “Us” is Elohim which is plural in form but singular in number and used with singular verbs and pronouns, a figure of speech that is often used in the Bible. “Us” refers to God and Jesus Christ working together to bring man back into the image of God. Christ was made into the image of God and so he worked with God to make (Hebrew Asah) man into the image of God. This is a prophetic anticipation of what God would do in the future. At the very beginning, God is letting us know his intentions toward man, not just to create man (Bara) but to make (Asah) man into the image and likeness of God. Notice God said he wanted to make (Asah) man into his image and likeness but instead God created (Hebrew bara) man in his image (27). But notice man is one person not three, and yet he is supposedly in the image of the Trinity!

    Isa 7:14 KJV– call his name Immanuel. No one is recorded calling Jesus by this name. When they saw the love, power, and miracles of God that flowed through Jesus, they knew that God had come back to them through their Messiah.

    Philip said in John 14: 9-11KJV
    8 Philip saith unto him, Lord, shew us the Father, and it sufficeth us. Jesus answered :
    9 Jesus saith unto him, Have I been so long time with you, and yet hast thou not known me, Philip? he that hath seen me hath seen the Father; and how sayest thou then, Shew us the Father?
    10 Believest thou not that I am in the Father, and the Father in me? the words that I speak unto you I speak not of myself: but the Father that dwelleth in me, he doeth the works.
    11 Believe me that I am in the Father, and the Father in me: or else believe me for the very works’ sake.

    In other words, if you have seen the love of God coming from Christ, heard his teaching, and seen the mighty miracles he has done, then you have seen the father for the father (Yahweh) dwelt in Christ and was manifested through him. Jesus clearly showed us here that it was the Father (Yahweh) who dwelt within him that was doing the works and miracles and giving the words to teach.

    Isa 9:6 – These are figures of speech, metonymies (in which one word stands in for another word like the word the “brass” refers to “military officers”). Jesus would manifest what these titles imply (because God was in him and working thru him), and therefore Christ would act as though these were his actual names.

    Note: Jesus was in constant communion with God all the time he was growing up. He knew he was different than others as the second Adam (1 Cor 14:45) and yet a full human being (that is, had a human body, human soul, and human spirit). He saw himself being written about in the scriptures and God taught him as well. He lived by faith to fulfill each one of these scriptures by God’s power and help.

    Jesus (as the second and last Adam) was like the first Adam before he sinned. He had no fallen nature or tendency to sin. He had no conscience to direct him but went by direct revelation and input from God. This was accomplished by God through the virgin birth. God expressed himself by means of His logos and brought forth Christ as the second Adam like unto the first Adam before he sinned.

    But he had to walk by faith and be obedient to God like everyone else does. He spent his time communing with God and getting to know him until he was ready to be sent forth into the ministry. The scripture say Jesus grew in favor with God and man (Luke 2:52) and learned obedience from the things he suffered (Heb 5:8)

    He was baptized in the Holy Spirit at his water baptism and was sent into the wilderness to be tempted by the devil himself for 40 days and nights (Mark 1:10-13). After he was proven to be faithful, God dwelt in him to the full (Col 2:9), and he became the Messiah to the Jews.

    Jesus could have sinned or use the power of God within to overcome temptation and gain riches, power, and popularity; but he was a faithful servant and gave all the glory to God (Phil 2:5-11). He used God’s power within only for others, not for himself. He suffered more, was tempted more, and went thru more than any other human being that ever lived, so he had no real advantage over us when you consider everything else.

    He also suffered horribly in deciding to go to the lake of fire for everyone else in order that they may be saved (Matt 26:39). No one has ever made such a decision. Yes, he had advantages over us but he went through more than any other human being. Jesus allowed God to perfect him, and God highly exalted him so that he became the author of our salvation.

    Now God is calling us to become like Christ by becoming Born-Again and filled with His Spirit and walking in the Spirit till we become experientially righteous and perfected too.

    Mic 5:2 – whose going forth have been from old, from everlasting. The KJ scholars translated “everlasting” in order to agree with their theology that Jesus was God. The true sense of the clause is as the NIV: “whose origins are from of old, from ancient times.”

    Zac 12:10 Eastern Masoretic text says: “They shall look unto HIM whom they have pierced,” the preferred reading

    John 1:1 Greek = in the beginning was the logos, and the logos was toward the God, and the logos was God (no article) (each word has significance to the interpretation of this verse and would take many pages to explain). If God wanted the Word to mean Christ, he would have used the Greek word Christos but instead he used the Greek Word Logos. The logos does not mean Christ. The logos is a figure of speech, a device God used to help explain how and why he created everything. It represents both the inward thought and out expression of that thought. That is, God expressed himself by means of his logos and created the heavens and earth. Later God expressed himself again by means of his logos and brought forth Christ from the virgin Mary (v14). The Logos can’t be God for it is standing towards God like a servant ready to do his will. The Greek is not WITH God but TOWARD God (that is, facing towards God) and has very significant meaning.

    The logos was toward the God, showing the logos was not God and yet the logos contains qualities and attributes of God for it say the Logos was God (without the article), showing it is not identical to God but contains qualities and attributes of God. The meaning of logos is based on the analogy of man’s thinking and speaking process, but this is figurative, because God knows and doesn’t think. God is in relationship to the logos what a noun is in relationship to a verb. The logos is God’s will, decision, and the release of His energy coming forth for creation of the earth and the universe. John 1:1 has nothing to do with Jesus who was not yet born. Jesus is mention in verse 14.

    John 1:3 -4:
    3 All things were made by him; and without him was not anything made that was made.
    4 In him was life; and the life was the light of men.

    Since we are still talking about the logos (not Christ), the proper translation is all things were made through “it” and without “it” was not anything made that was made. In “it” was life…(in the logos was life).

    John 1:18- There is a variant reading here; either only begotten son or only begotten God. Internal evidence proves the Greek is only begotten son, not only begotten God.

    “Only begotten God,” who is said to be in the bosom of the Father implies two Gods, whereas the Scriptures everywhere declare that there is only one God and God is one.
    Scripture makes it clear that God is eternal, not begotten.
    “Only begotten God” is the only occurrence of this phrase in the Bible, whereas “only begotten son” occurs elsewhere.

    John 1:15 = for he was before me. The Greek is for he was first of me, not before. The meaning must involve Jesus being first in relation to John the Baptist in the sense of preeminence. Emphasized Bible by Joseph Rotherham says: “Because my chief was he.”

    John the Baptist said he was not even worthy to loosen the sandals of Jesus feet as a servant would do when you entered a house.

    John 17:5 – Jesus is speaking from the stand point of the first Adam who had the glory of God, and Jesus was interceding on the behalf of all those who were followers of him; all those who are IN the second Adam. Jesus was the second and last Adam and restored what the first Adam had lost through sin; that is, the glory Adam had with God before he sinned. Jesus restored that Glory with God and went on to completion or perfection. He received the fullness of God. Now all those Born-Again and filled with the Spirit and that are pressing in to obtain all that God has for them, even the perfection of their souls and spirits, will too also have the glory of God like the second Adam attained unto. Jesus is now interceding for them for soon he would be crucified and not be able to pray for them (on earth) anymore, so he had to pray before his suffering on the cross and he wanted his followers to hear him.

    Acts 7:59 – God is not in the Greek as the King James Version has it. The Greek = calling upon the Lord Jesus. “And as they were stoning Stephen, he called out, “Lord Jesus, receive my spirit.” (ESV)

    Acts 16:7 –There is a variant reading which must be interpreted in light of the clear verses on the subject. “Of Jesus” is most likely an interpolation. Much more can be said.

    Rom 9:5- Grammatically, “God blessed forever” isn’t linked to “Christ,” so the meaning must be “God who is over all be blessed forever.” Paul is praising God here.

    Heb 1:2 Greek spoke to us IN his son

    Rev 1:8 – The Greek = saith the “Lord God.”(KJV). This is referring to God, not Jesus. “”I am the Alpha and the Omega,” says the ‘Lord God’, “who is and who was and who is to come, the Almighty.” (ESV)

    I need to stress a very important rule of how one goes about interpreting the Bible. This is according to a rule of Hermeneutics. One needs to formulate their theology or doctrine from clear passages of scripture, not unclear ambiguous controversial passages of scripture like the immediate list above. One needs to interpret all the ambiguous scriptures in the light of the clear unambiguous scriptures. A good example would be interpreting all the ambiguous scriptures above in the light of the clear scripture list that all say “God is one.”
    The word of God tells us that there are no contradictions in God’s Word (II Tim. 3:16), and we are told that God is not the author of confusion (I Cor. 14:33).
    One may not figure out the correct interpretation on his own, but instead will need to consult oneness scholars and check the word of God like the Bereans did in Acts 17:10-11 to see if these things are so. But not everyone are scholarly enough or have much back ground in deep Bible study to study out the meaning of these difficult passages. Many don’t have the skills need or the time to research out the Word of God to its completion. They need Bible college background and practice in doing Bible research. This is why God called teachers to be placed over the church so we can come into the truth and be perfected (Eph 4:11-13) because one will not necessary be able to get these truths on their own. God gave us teachers to teach us and we need to learn from them.

    May all receive the peace of Christ and trust God in everything,

    Dale

    • http://blueletterbible.org Larry “itisfinished” Jefferson

      Dale, this is a response to your post on July 20, specifically the last paragraph.
      I discern a very strong spirit of pride, arrogance, and self-righteousness in your statement, “one may not figure out the correct interpretation on his own. but instead will need to consult “oneness” scholars, and check the Word of God like the Bereans to see if those things are so.”
      I am assuming that you consider yourself to be a “oneness scholar” (based on your extensive and elaborate expositions). My question to you sir, is this, if the “oneness” scholar is the only avenue to proper interpretation/understanding of the Word of God, what happens to the “Spirit of truth” that has come to live and abide in every born again believer? Are you implying that a “oneness” scholar is on par with the Holy Spirit as a teacher? and if as you say, “one may not be able to “figure” out the correct interpretation” are you so brash as to say that if I do not embrace the position that you have presented here, i.e. the trinity/oneness/Jesus not being God, which you have strongly alledged to have been proven from the Bible, and have basically challenged all others to disprove your proof. (I fear that you have only convinced yourself of the truth of your position). Beware my brother, (I use the term “brother” loosely here), it was the scribes and pharisees, i.e. the bible college trained theologians of Jesus’ day that were His most ardent antagonist, and was contrary to His will and purpose. You are placing yourself in a very similar position under the guise of truth and coming to perfection. After reading through your many and expansive desertations and explainations I feel compassion and pity for you, because you have convinced yourself that you have the Person and Being of God “figured” out so percise and exact. I do not recall reading one time on any of your post on this site, you making mention or referencing the Holy Spirit having any role in the conclusions that you have come to, (RED FLAG). You appear to rely heavily on scholarship, religious education, and from your numerous references to the Greek, I assume you deem yourself to be somewhat proficent in this elaborate language. You have done a masterful job of “twisting and distorting” the scriptures to say what “you believe” about the matter, while at the same time managing to dismiss and disregard any body who disagrees with you.
      For the record I believe in the ONENESS of GOD! However, I am not so bold as to set aside those in the Body of Christ who happen to hold to the trinitarian view. ULTIMATELY, I DO NOT believe that this will be a matter of eternal significance when all is said and done, and we stand before the judgment seat of Christ, the issue WILL NOT be did I embrace trinitarian or oneness doctrine, and did I dot all the I’s and cross all the “T’s, or was I a Arminian or a Calvinist? I am in Christ, He is in me my HOPE of glory, that will suffice today and for eternity, and in that alone I rest.
      Finally, I can only hope and pray that the energy and passion that has been displayed on this BLB Blog about the trinity vs oneness debate will be translated into a compassion for the lost and will compel each of us to spend ourselves in the ministry of reconciliation, by proclaiming the gospel of Jesus Christ to every human being we encounter because the GOSPEL is the power of God unto salvation, and as quiet as its kept this is the sole purpose of the Church in the world. Not to spend excessive time, effort, and energy trying to prove or disprove a “doctrinal” position. The debate and presentation of different views is invigorating, we all come from different backgrounds, and have different points of reference when we engage in this type of discussion, we see through a glass darkly, we are yet being perfected, and NOT ONE OF US, have it RIGHT yet. I fully endorse the prayerful study and meditation of Gods Word, but understand because you are flesh you can get it wrong on some matters, and this applies to oneness people as well as trinitarians. Be sure to strive to be led by the HOLY SPIRIT, (not the spirit of the world or the spirit of religion). Keep yourself in the love of God, and walk in love. STOP trying to separate the “tares’ from the “wheat”, Jesus said He would handle that in due season. Go ahead fully embrace your trinity, your oneness, just climb down off the judgment seat, and put away the condemnation.
      Funny thought: Not one of you reading this will think that any of this applies to you, because after all you are right and you know it!
      (I posted this as a reply to Brother? Dale) because he seems to be the most vociferious! :)

      • Barbara LeFevre

        Larry,

        The nature of God IS important because if one cannot understand exactly who He is, how He chose to relate to His creation, how Jesus truly and totally subjected Himself to the Father as a perfect and complete model for us, and how the Holy Spirit, among other things, guides us into ALL truth (Jn. 16:13), then we are not going to rightly divide the Word or have the relationship with Him that we are truly supposed to, and there are eternal consequences for not doing so. If we cannot correctly understand the Word, then we cannot correctly act upon it. That’s just a fact.

        In addition, your “Funny thought” that “Not one of you reading this will think that any of this applies to you, because after all you are right and you know it” is not funny. It is a fallacy in reasoning because not only are you attacking the persons rather than the issue but you are making a general statement that excludes either side from being biblically sound without offering any evidence at all. It also contradicts the advice that you have given to everyone else to “just climb down off the judgment seat, and put away the condemnation.”

        As I wrote on an earlier post (July 19), your responses vacillate between the two different doctrines, so this shows that you aren’t really sure what the Bible says. You acknowledged this when you wrote that you are “re-examing [sic] and re-thinking a lot of religious concepts” (July 17), and I pray that your investigation will be based upon a legitimate study of the entire Word (II Tim. 3:26).

        If something is in the Word, then you can be assured of two things: It is important, and it can be known. I will pray that as you commit yourself to study and submit yourself to the power of the Holy Spirit that God will open your heart and eyes to His eternal and unchanging truth.

        Barbara

        • http://blueletterbible.org Larry itisfinished Jefferson

          Barbara,
          Your passion is showing! It’s a beautiful thing!
          God is one there is no trinity! How is that for vacillating?
          I am sorry that you took my “re-examining” and “re-thinking” religious concepts” to mean I was not really sure what the Bible says, I am sure of this Barbara there is no trinity in the Bible.
          How you concluded that my “funny thought” comment was an attack on anybody, is beyond me. Perhaps it was too close to home for you, maybe?
          The trinity is a NOT an issue for ME, that is your stronghold dear sister. (You are trinitarian in your beliefs, right?)
          Do me a favor, when you are praying for me as you said, don’t pray that my heart and and eyes will be opened to see His eternal and unchanging truth through trinitarian eyes.
          When I look through the eye of the Holy Spirit I see ONE GOD, ONE INDIVISIBLE ETERNAL SPIRIT, period! End of story.
          May God be with you and your struggle to reconcile the 3 in 1 trinity theory. Peace to you.

          “ITISFINISHED”

  • http://www.aol.com Andybob

    Wow! Dale,

    You’ve done an excellent job of letting us know how to interpret the Bible.

    Take those verses that are easily understood and then use them to help one interpret the difficult ones. Bible Hermenutics principles.

    I pray that each person will do their best to put the tradtions of man on the back burner and use sound logic to interpret both easy and hard scriptures.

    God Bless you brother Dale with Agape, peace, healing and GRACE!

    Your Servant,
    Andybob

  • Bob

    To Dale or Andybob,

    Just curious what kind of Christian(denomonation) teaches this stuff? I do not even think any non-denominational churches adhere to this particular type of doctrine.

    That Jesus is not to be worshipped at all, or as YAH HIMSELF, but is to be understood as a mere man only.

    I know jws/mormons/muslims-islam adhere to this type of theology.

    Where do you folks fellowship at locally?

    Just curious based on your claim that we(whole body of Christ) must come together in unity of the “this” faith.

  • http://www.aol.com andybob

    Bob,

    I cannot speak for Brother Dale.

    However in the worship services I attend we worship both God (Yahweh, the Father) and the man Jesus Christ too.

    Because of your question about lack of knowing about other Christians that believe in the one God, Yah or Yahweh, there are many non-denominational churches that believe like I do but they are not in the mainstream so less is known about us.

    If you where to classify me into a denominational category I would be classified as a Baptist/Pentecostal/Oneness Christian.

    Because this blog is read by so many I am choosing not to answer your question as to where I attend church locally.

    Per our Bibles: I believe in being born again (John 3:3-5), being filled with the Holy Spirit (Acts 2, Acts 10, Acts 19) with evidence of speaking in tongues, I believe in Baptism by emersion in water, in Jesus’ name (Acts 2:38), the Word of God is inspired by our Father (2 Tim 3:16), the gifts of the Spirit (1Cr 12:4-11), the rapture of the church (1 Thess 4:13-18), the 2nd coming of Jesus Christ (Acts 1:11, Zec 14:4), the Millennial reign of Jesus Christ (Rev 20:4-5), the new heavens and earth (2Pe 2:13, Rev 21:1, and much more…

    I do not believe in a triune God, (God the Son, God the Holy Spirit) because that is polytheism. I do not believe that once a person gets saved they are then always saved, but that they can actually lose their salvation if they fall away and stop believing (like Judas Iscariot, and the five foolish virgins (Matt 25). I do not believe one has to be filled with the Holy Spirit to be saved as some churches teach (the theif on the cross made heaven with out being spirit filled or being batized in water because God looks on the hearts of mankind. I do not believe in following the traditions of men and the church councils, like Nicean and Chalcedon that teach a trinity and the worship of Mary as the mother of God!

    Brother Bob please understand, We, as Christians, are still coming into all truth and I do “not” espouse to know all things but like you I am being lead by our Father’s holy spirit into all truth (John 16:13) and I am searching the scriptures to see that what I am being taught by the apostles, prophets, evangelists, pastors and teachers inthe churches are true and line up with the Word of God (Bible) much like those of the Berean Church did when the Apostle Paul came to town and taught in their synagogues (Acts 17:10-11).

    More information for you to consider when Worshiping God and Jesus:

    The meaning of the word worship in the NT:

    Note: There are a few places in the gospel where Jesus is said to be worshipped (Luke 24:52; Matt14:33; 28:19; John 9:38) But Jesus was never worshipped spiritually as God or in the same way as they worship God. The Greek word for ‘worship’ in every case is = proskuneo {pros-koo-neh’-o} 4352, which has a wide variety of meaning.

    Strong’s defines it as follows:
    1) to kiss the hand to (towards) one, in token of reverence, showing respect
    2) among the Orientals, esp. the Persians, to fall upon the knees and touch the ground with the forehead as an expression of profound reverence
    3) in the NT by kneeling or prostration to do homage (to one) or make obeisance, whether in order to express respect or to make supplication 3a) used of homage shown to men and beings of superior rank 3a1) to the Jewish high priests 3a2) to God 3a3) to Christ 3a4) to heavenly beings 3a5) to demons .

    So it means to show reverence, or pay homage, or show obeisance to, or to honor, or show respect and is translated that way by some or our Bible translations:

    Some examples are:
    Mat 14:33 (MacDonald’s Idiomatic Translation of the New Testament, 2008 – MIT): Those in the boat bowed to him reverently and said, “You are truly God’s son!”

    Luke 24:52 (Darby) And *they*, having done him homage, returned to Jerusalem with great joy,

    John 9:38 (MIT) He said, “I believe, Lord,” and he assumed a posture of deep reverence before him. New World Translation = And he did obeisance to him.

    Matthew 28:9 – Mary Magdalena and another Mary greeted him, took hold of his feet, and worshiped him, meaning they showed him great honor and respect.

    God has made Jesus our Lord, so of course we will give him reverence, obeisance, and homage and great honor for he is our King, our savior, our master, and the one who gave his body and soul for us, but we will give our spiritual worship to God alone.

    John 4:24 and Philippians 3:3 say: we worship God in spirit, and it is only God that deserves our spiritual worship for he is the “father of spirits” (Hebrews 12:9).

    This is not depreciating Christ for he was the only pure man ever born of woman, and he was totally surrendered to God his heavenly father, and he obeyed him in all things his whole life on earth and continues to do so in heaven.

    In the New Jerusalem, although God will be the light, Jesus will be the lamp that God shines through (Rev 21:23). He will still be God’s top contact man, God’s representative, the visible manifestation of God when God wants to manifest himself and speak.

    We will never see God in heaven except in Jesus and in one another (God is invisible: Col 1:15, 1Ti 1:17). But we shall freely experience Him in our spirits and glorified bodies in a way much more than we do here on earth, in a very full measure.

    In the Bible we see that Jesus was never worship like they worship God. They open heartedly knew Jesus was the Messiah, the literal son of God and that God was dwelling in him and doing mighty miracles in him (John 14:10).

    Yes, they would do great obeisance to Jesus when God flowed through him to heal them and deliver them from demons. They were very thankful to Jesus for allowing God to flow through him in such fantastic miracles and healing such of which they have never seen or heard before (the deaf could hear, the blind could see, the dead raised back to life, etc (Mat 15:31).

    Thanks for your question Brother Bob, I would suggest you do some research on the web about the oneness churches so you can broaden your understanding the churches and please do not assume we are a cult like the JWS, Mormons, etc.

    God Bless you with His love, peace, mercy and grace!

    Your servant,
    Andybob

    • Barbara LeFevre

      Andybob~

      I would like to respond the ideas that you and Dale have put forth, but I want to be accurate about what you believe. Are you going to be able to answer the questions that I asked you pretty soon?

      Thanks you~
      Barbara

      • http://www.aol.com andybob

        Hello Sister Barbara,

        I was hoping you would answer my questions too! I have answered yours below

        Your question on the Holy Spirit ~

        The Bible is the source of all my answers and though you’ve not asked for scripture references I have to use them because they are profitable for teaching and correction (2Ti 3:16) and they are proof of my statements to you and those who read this.

        The Bible says God is a spirit John 4:24 “God is a Spirit: and they that worship him must worship Him in spirit and in truth.” The Bible also describes Him as the “Eternal Spirit” Heb 9:14.

        God’s (Yahweh’s) essence is spirit, is what one can take from this verse, and we all have a spirit like Him which is a part of us being made in the image of God (Gen 1:26) and He is the father of spirits or the creator of spirits as seen in Hebrews 12:9.

        God’s spirit is holy, pure, beautiful, and there many more glorious adjectives one can apply to it. The words “Holy Spirit” are given to describe God (Yahweh) our Father in action throughout the scriptures and is commonly use as a title and not a name as some claim.

        When one views the actual Greek text when the words “holy spirit” are used, the Greek literally says, “spirit the holy” and it is a contrast to other spirits such as evil spirits or angelic spirits. In our English vernacular we say “the holy spirit”.

        More Questions
        1. God is a numerical one.
        Answer: Yes, Deut 6:4 and many other places it says this.

        2. God can manifest Himself in different ways at the same time.
        Answer: Absolutely Yes, He is everywhere present or omnipresent (Psalm 139:8, Jeremiah 23:23-24)
        He can be prophesying through many people at the same time like he did with King Saul and his men in 1 Samuel 19:20 or He can help His people to pray in tongues all at the same time Acts 2. He can be healing someone in China at the same time He is healing someone in India.

        3. Jesus is God in works and character, not in deity.
        Answer: Wrong statement and misleading because Jesus is a man with God working in him. God, and Father, works through Jesus (John 14:10) and the rest of His people (Peter, Paul, our Pastors, teachers, evangelists, prophets.

        4. God’s name is Yahweh.
        Answer: Yes, this is correct Exodus 3:14-15 (LORD is the name “YHWH” in the Hebrew language) and He says this is my name forever.

        5. Jesus in only human.
        Answer: Yes, born of a woman Mat 1:18-25 and died on the cross (John 19:30).

        Jesus did not pre-exist, become super tiny and get into Mary’s womb. The Trinitarian belief that he existed before he was made by God is not true. God created a male seed (sperm) with the attributes and genetic material he wanted inside of Mary’s womb and it united with her egg and Jesus came into existence, and was born as a full human being (body, soul and spirit).

        6. “We do not believe in three separate personalities in the Godhead, but we believe in three offices which are filled by one person” (Nathaniel A. Urshan, United Pentecostal Church).
        Answer: Not sure what your question is here this is something I do not believe because there is no godhead (Col 2:9 – Greek here is better translated Deity or God Essence).
        There is God who is a spirit that fills heaven and earth, He is our Father and His name is Yahweh. There is God’s only begotten son, the man Jesus Christ and he is our high priest and mediator (1 Tim 2:5 “For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the ‘man’ Christ Jesus;”.

        By the answers I have given you can see I do not agree with the whole definition Wikipedia gives.
        As to anything you may have missed please see below…

        In my previous blog posts I listed the attributes of both God our Father and Jesus Christ to show how they are separate beings God is God and Jesus is a man. I have listed them again below for your reference.

        I have used these Bible verses as the basis of formulating my doctrine or understanding of who God is and who Jesus is. When I look at who God is and ask myself questions about different passages of the Bible I am reading I can honestly answer them in light of what the Bible says about who God is and who Jesus is.

        For example:
        The Bible says God is eternal and not a man that He should lie. When Jesus Christ died on the cross it was a man that died not God. Likewise when Jesus was tempted in the wilderness it was a man being tempted not God because God cannot be tempted.
        When dealing with the more difficult to understand verses of the Bible I do not jump to a Trinitarian concept of God to try to make sense of it but I use the basis of who God is according to His attributes and who Jesus is according to his attributes.
        ……………….Attributes of God……………………………….
        Throughout the Bible we see many scriptures that describe God, who He is, His nature and things that He is not. I have found this to be the base or foundation for my belief and understanding of Him who I love with all my heart or should I say I am learning to love with ALL my heart.

        Here are some of His attributes with supporting scripture references:
        – God’s name is Yahweh or Jehovah (Exodus 3:14)
        – Yahweh/God is the creator (Gen 1:1, Isa 40:28, Isa 43:15, Jer 32:17)
        – God is love (agape) (1 John 4:8, 1 John 4:16)
        – God is eternal ( Deut 33:27, 1 Tim 1:17, Heb 9:14)
        – God is a spirit ( John 4:24, Heb 9:14) the holy (not unholy) spirit
        – God is all knowing or omniscient (Isa 40:28, Psalm 147:5, Mat 10:30)
        – God is everywhere present or omnipresent (Psalm 139:8, Jeremiah 23:23-24)
        – God is all powerful or omnipotent (Job 42:2, Luke 1:37, Jeremiah 32:17, 27)
        – God cannot be tempted (James 1:13)
        – God is not a man (Numbers 23:19, 1 Sam 15:29) however Jesus Christ is a man!
        – God is not a liar (Deut 32:4, Numbers 23:19, 1 Sam 15:29)
        – God is invisible (1 Tim 1:17)
        – God is immortal (1 Tim 1:17)
        As I mentioned these are but a few verses I have found to be very helpful for me to understand who God is. Can you come up with some more? It would helpful to me and others if you did.

        ******* Attributes of the man Jesus Christ ********************
        Now let’s take a look at who Jesus Christ is and some of his attributes. We, as Christians, can identify ourselves with him because he lived life on earth just like we do and went through many things like we do in our everyday lives but with one GREAT BIG exception, though tempted he never sinned (Heb 4:15), however we all have sinned (Romans 3:23).
        – Jesus had a beginning or he was born (Mat 1:16, Mat 2:1)
        – Jesus prayed to God (Mat 26:39, Mat 14:23, John 17:1-5, Rev 3:12)
        – Jesus had a body (Luke 23:52, Mark 15:23)
        – Jesus had a soul (Mat 26:38)
        – Jesus had a spirit (Mark 2:8, Luke 23:46)
        – Jesus was hungry and ate food (Mat 4:2, Mark 11:13, Mark 14:22)
        – Jesus sang songs (Mat 26:30, Mark 14:26)
        – Jesus did not know everything (Mark 13:32) God though knows everything
        – Jesus was a man (1 Tim 2:5, Mat 8:20) remember God is not a man
        – Jesus died (Mark 15:37-39, Luke 23:46) remember God cannot die
        – Jesus wept (John 11:35)
        – Jesus was tempted (Mark 1:13, Luke 4:2, Heb 4:15) remember God cannot be tempted
        – Jesus worshiped God (Heb 5:7) this is a man worshipping God not a one person of the trinity worshipping the other person of the trinity.
        – Jesus had his Father’s name (Jesus’ name mean Yahweh the Savior or Yahweh is Savior) (John 17:11)
        – Jesus is the first born of many brethren (Rom 8:29)
        – God, who dwelt in, or lived in Jesus Christ, did the miracles (John 14:10)

        I hope and pray this helps you come to a better understanding of who our Father (Yahweh) is and who Jesus is.

        Much Agape,
        Your servant,
        Andybob

        • Barbara LeFevre

          Andybob~

          Thank you for your answers; however, I am still having a difficult time reconciling what you are saying with the scores of sites about Oneness Pentecostalism. Maybe I’m just not asking the right questions. Please bear with me while I try to figure it out. Here is an excerpt from 4Truth.Net which is indicative of what I have found. Does this agree with what you believe?

          “Oneness Pentecostals declare that the Godhead consists of only one Person and deny the traditional doctrine of the Trinity. They maintain that the only real “person” in the Godhead is Jesus. Thus, they are often referred to as the “Jesus Only” Movement. They maintain that God exists in two modes, as the Father in heaven, and as Jesus the Son on earth. Nevertheless, they are the same person, not two separate persons. The Holy Spirit is not regarded as a person at all, merely a manifestation of Jesus’ power or a synonym for Him….Jesus is said to have two natures: human and divine. Thus, when He died, only His human nature died. Also, when Jesus prayed, it was His human nature praying to His divine nature-not to a separate Father in heaven.”

          The idea that I really want clarified is found in the sentence, “They maintain that God exists in two modes, as the Father in heaven, and as Jesus the Son on earth. Nevertheless, they are the same person, not two separate persons.”

          If these sites are incorrect, please give me a link to a Pentecostal site that clearly explains the doctrine we are discussing.

          Thank you~
          Barbara

          • Barbara LeFevre

            Andybob~

            I copied this statement from the UPCI website:

            “About God

            There is one God, who has revealed Himself as our Father, in His Son Jesus Christ, and as the Holy Spirit. Jesus Christ is God manifested in flesh. He is both God and man. (See Deuteronomy 6:4; Ephesians 4:4-6; Colossians 2:9; I Timothy 3:16.)”

            Obviously, this contradicts what you have said, that Jesus is not God at all. This statement is more in keeping with with the sites that I’ve read, that sometimes God is manifested as the Father, sometimes as the Son, and sometimes as the Holy Spirit. Your view, if I understand it correctly, is that the word “manifests” only means that God worked through Jesus as He works through believers, not that He reveals Himself in three distinct modes. This doesn’t sound like the organization to which you belong. Please give me a Oneness Pentecostal site that defines your beliefs.

            Thank you!
            Barbara

        • Barbara LeFevre

          Andybob~

          You said you would check back every day or so to see if anything was posted. I will have my answer for you on Wednesday.

          Barbara

  • http://www.aol.com Andybob

    Hello Sister Barbara,

    I have answered your questions below

    Your question on the Holy Spirit ~

    The Bible is the source of all my answers and though you’ve not asked for scripture references I have to use them because they are profitable for teaching and correction (2Ti 3:16) and they are proof of my statements to you and those who read this.

    The Bible says God is a spirit John 4:24 “God is a Spirit: and they that worship him must worship Him in spirit and in truth.” The Bible also describes Him as the “Eternal Spirit” Heb 9:14.

    God’s (Yahweh’s) essence is spirit, is what one can take from this verse, and we all have a spirit like Him which is a part of us being made in the image of God (Gen 1:26) and He is the father of spirits or the creator of spirits as seen in Hebrews 12:9.

    God’s spirit is holy, pure, beautiful, and there many more glorious adjectives one can apply to it. The words “Holy Spirit” are given to describe God (Yahweh) our Father in action throughout the scriptures and is commonly use as a title and not a name as some claim.

    When one views the actual Greek text when the words “holy spirit” are used, the Greek literally says, “spirit the holy” and it is a contrast to other spirits such as evil spirits or angelic spirits. In our English vernacular we say “the holy spirit”.

    More Questions
    1. God is a numerical one.
    Answer: Yes, Deut 6:4 and many other places it says this.

    2. God can manifest Himself in different ways at the same time.
    Answer: Absolutely Yes, He is everywhere present or omnipresent (Psalm 139:8, Jeremiah 23:23-24)
    He can be prophesying through many people at the same time like he did with King Saul and his men in 1 Samuel 19:20 or He can help His people to pray in tongues all at the same time Acts 2. He can be healing someone in China at the same time He is healing someone in India.

    3. Jesus is God in works and character, not in deity.
    Answer: Wrong statement and misleading because Jesus is a man with God working in him. God, and Father, works through Jesus (John 14:10) and the rest of His people (Peter, Paul, our Pastors, teachers, evangelists, prophets.

    4. God’s name is Yahweh.
    Answer: Yes, this is correct Exodus 3:14-15 (LORD is the name “YHWH” in the Hebrew language) and He says this is my name forever.

    5. Jesus in only human.
    Answer: Yes, born of a woman Mat 1:18-25 and died on the cross (John 19:30).

    Jesus did not pre-exist, become super tiny and get into Mary’s womb. The Trinitarian belief that he existed before he was made by God is not true. God created a male seed (sperm) with the attributes and genetic material he wanted inside of Mary’s womb and it united with her egg and Jesus came into existence, and was born as a full human being (body, soul and spirit).

    6. “We do not believe in three separate personalities in the Godhead, but we believe in three offices which are filled by one person” (Nathaniel A. Urshan, United Pentecostal Church).
    Answer: Not sure what your question is here this is something I do not believe because there is no godhead (Col 2:9 – Greek here is better translated Deity or God Essence).
    There is God who is a spirit that fills heaven and earth, He is our Father and His name is Yahweh. There is God’s only begotten son, the man Jesus Christ and he is our high priest and mediator (1 Tim 2:5 “For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the ‘man’ Christ Jesus;”.

    By the answers I have given you can see I do not agree with the whole definition Wikipedia gives.
    As to anything you may have missed please see below…

    In my previous blog posts I listed the attributes of both God our Father and Jesus Christ to show how they are separate beings God is God and Jesus is a man. I have listed them again below for your reference.

    I have used these Bible verses as the basis of formulating my doctrine or understanding of who God is and who Jesus is. When I look at who God is and ask myself questions about different passages of the Bible I am reading I can honestly answer them in light of what the Bible says about who God is and who Jesus is.

    For example:
    The Bible says God is eternal and not a man that He should lie. When Jesus Christ died on the cross it was a man that died not God. Likewise when Jesus was tempted in the wilderness it was a man being tempted not God because God cannot be tempted.
    When dealing with the more difficult to understand verses of the Bible I do not jump to a Trinitarian concept of God to try to make sense of it but I use the basis of who God is according to His attributes and who Jesus is according to his attributes.
    ……………….Attributes of God……………………………….
    Throughout the Bible we see many scriptures that describe God, who He is, His nature and things that He is not. I have found this to be the base or foundation for my belief and understanding of Him who I love with all my heart or should I say I am learning to love with ALL my heart.

    Here are some of His attributes with supporting scripture references:
    – God’s name is Yahweh or Jehovah (Exodus 3:14)
    – Yahweh/God is the creator (Gen 1:1, Isa 40:28, Isa 43:15, Jer 32:17)
    – God is love (agape) (1 John 4:8, 1 John 4:16)
    – God is eternal ( Deut 33:27, 1 Tim 1:17, Heb 9:14)
    – God is a spirit ( John 4:24, Heb 9:14) the holy (not unholy) spirit
    – God is all knowing or omniscient (Isa 40:28, Psalm 147:5, Mat 10:30)
    – God is everywhere present or omnipresent (Psalm 139:8, Jeremiah 23:23-24)
    – God is all powerful or omnipotent (Job 42:2, Luke 1:37, Jeremiah 32:17, 27)
    – God cannot be tempted (James 1:13)
    – God is not a man (Numbers 23:19, 1 Sam 15:29) however Jesus Christ is a man!
    – God is not a liar (Deut 32:4, Numbers 23:19, 1 Sam 15:29)
    – God is invisible (1 Tim 1:17)
    – God is immortal (1 Tim 1:17)
    As I mentioned these are but a few verses I have found to be very helpful for me to understand who God is. Can you come up with some more? It would helpful to me and others if you did.

    ******* Attributes of the man Jesus Christ ********************
    Now let’s take a look at who Jesus Christ is and some of his attributes. We, as Christians, can identify ourselves with him because he lived life on earth just like we do and went through many things like we do in our everyday lives but with one GREAT BIG exception, though tempted he never sinned (Heb 4:15), however we all have sinned (Romans 3:23).
    – Jesus had a beginning or he was born (Mat 1:16, Mat 2:1)
    – Jesus prayed to God (Mat 26:39, Mat 14:23, John 17:1-5, Rev 3:12)
    – Jesus had a body (Luke 23:52, Mark 15:23)
    – Jesus had a soul (Mat 26:38)
    – Jesus had a spirit (Mark 2:8, Luke 23:46)
    – Jesus was hungry and ate food (Mat 4:2, Mark 11:13, Mark 14:22)
    – Jesus sang songs (Mat 26:30, Mark 14:26)
    – Jesus did not know everything (Mark 13:32) God though knows everything
    – Jesus was a man (1 Tim 2:5, Mat 8:20) remember God is not a man
    – Jesus died (Mark 15:37-39, Luke 23:46) remember God cannot die
    – Jesus wept (John 11:35)
    – Jesus was tempted (Mark 1:13, Luke 4:2, Heb 4:15) remember God cannot be tempted
    – Jesus worshiped God (Heb 5:7) this is a man worshipping God not a one person of the trinity worshipping the other person of the trinity.
    – Jesus had his Father’s name (Jesus’ name mean Yahweh the Savior or Yahweh is Savior) (John 17:11)
    – Jesus is the first born of many brethren (Rom 8:29)
    – God, who dwelt in, or lived in Jesus Christ, did the miracles (John 14:10)

    I hope and pray this helps you come to a better understanding of who our Father (Yahweh) is and who Jesus is.
    Much Agape,
    Your servant,
    Andybob

    Reply to Barbara
    Barbara,

    Just like there are differences in how Christians believe about the teaching on salvation, water baptism, marriage, church government, holy spirit baptism, rapture, second coming of Christ, etc so there are differences in how they perceive the nature of God.

    The Athanasian Creed is a tradition based Christian statement of belief, focusing on Trinitarian doctrine and Christology formed by the Catholic Church councils in the Nicean and Chalcedon church councils of the 4th and 5th centuries.
    From what I understand from modern times, i.e. 20th century, a Christian statement of belief for the oneness started being formulated in the Assembly of God Churches in 1914. While at a meeting of the Pentecostal churches of the time was taking place there arose a discussion and a disagreement about the nature of God and how new converts should be baptized. Should the name of Jesus used or the names of the titles “Father”, “son” and “holy spirit” be used.

    The discussion centered on the verse in “Matt 28:19” which reads, “Go therefore* and make disciples of all the nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit,”

    The word “Name” in this passage is singular (not names plural), and the Name Jesus was believed to be used when baptizing new converts by the early church Act2:38. So they thought about what the name signified. They all knew that the name of Jesus referred to the son of man as Jesus called himself on a number of occasions in the Gospels.

    They knew the name of the Father was Yahweh and that his name means Yahweh is Savior and they understood that Jesus had his Father’s name (John 17:6) and did things in his Father’s name.

    This lead them to also understand that God (Yahweh) was “in” Christ reconciling the world unto Himself as declared in 2 Corinthians 5:19 which states, “that is, that God was in Christ reconciling the world to Himself, not imputing their trespasses to them, and has committed to us the word of reconciliation. ” Some of them now understood that it was not one part of God (the Father) reconciling the world through another part of God (the Son) but God inside of a man (Jesus Christ) reconciling the world to Himself.
    Furthermore some of the Assembly of God ministers now understood that it was God (Yahweh) “in” Jesus Christ doing the fantastic miracles as described in John 14:10 which says, “Do you not believe that I am in the Father and the Father is in me? The words that I say to you I do not speak on my own authority, but the Father who dwells in me does his works.”

    A church split within the Assembly of God churches occurred over this and the United Pentecostal church was created with the Assembly of God churches holding fast to the traditional trinitarian teachings of the 4th and 5th centuries and the United Pentecostal churches chose to believe that Jesus Christ was both man and God.

    They are still not clear on how this can be and over the years some have come to understand from the Bible that Jesus was just a man like you and I and that it was God in him doing the works (John14:10) much like he did fantastic miracles through Moses, (Red Sea, Plagues), Elijah (drought/rain, and more), Elisha (parting the Jordan River), Peter, Paul, etc.

    I have studied this further over the years and have come to understand that God is God and He is a great, awesome, profound, wonderful, holy, gentle, loving spirit that fills heaven and earth, and that God created Jesus Christ the man who is our mediator (1 Tim 2:5), whom God had in mind when He created the world. God (Yahweh) foreknew Jesus would be our savior and willing sacrifice his life for us, that he would be a perfect man that would never give into temptation and sin making him that perfect sacrificial lamb, and would be the best example we as Christians should follow.

    The Bible makes it clear that Jesus is the pattern son we are to follow 1 Tim 1:16 “However, for this reason I obtained mercy, that in me first Jesus Christ might show all longsuffering, as a pattern to those who are going to believe on Him for everlasting life.”

    I think you’re looking for a better understanding of oneness vs. Trinitarian doctrines to gain a better understanding of the nature of God; however I am not that familiar with the websites you’ve listed, nor do I have one specific website that I can point you to.

    I encourage you to form your doctrine/understanding from the scriptures that are easily understood and then move on to tackle the difficult ones that brother Dale has done his best to explain.

    Now I have to say Barbara that you have a wonderful heart and I love that you are willing to learn more truth about who God is and who Jesus is and how God works with mankind to show them His great love for us.

    I have had to come out of a lot of false doctrine over the years. I learned that Mary was not the mother of God though I was taught that in the church I grew up in. I was also taught to confess my sins to a priest and then go say a set of prayers the priest gave me to say to obtain forgiveness for my sins thus trying to earn my salvation from works. I learned that if I confess my sins God is faithful to forgive my sins and that it is a free gift (grace) from God.

    As I have studied the scriptures there are some things I do not understand so I place them on the shelf and address them as I can until I come into a better understand. I have learned that there are a lot of misguided, dogmatic people in the Christian world and I have learned to listen, in love, and weigh what they say against the scriptures (2 Tim 3:16). Sometimes it is not clear but I ask God to lead me into the truth and He does time and time again.

    I remember the day, years ago, that I was filling out my Bible College application. I was sitting on a picnic bench with my older brother who had been going to Bible College and he shared with me something I had never heard about before. He showed with me the Bible’s teaching about the Rapture (1 Thess 4:13-18) and how God was going to send Jesus to gather us together with him and take us to heaven. I was so happy to learn this.

    Over the years I have come to understand more about the Rapture and the different teachings that churches have on this subject like whether or not it is a partial rapture of the church or a full rapture of the church. I have had to study whether or not the Rapture is at the beginning of the Great Tribulation, or in the middle of the Great Tribulation, or at the end of it, and whether or not the Rapture and the Second Coming of Jesus are one in the same event or separate events.

    My point is that I did not know all about it (the Rapture) or the nature of God (Oneness or Trinitarian) when I first learned about them but I have decided, with my free will that God gave me, to keep my heart teachable and open to the truth and if I do not quite understand something then I put it on the shelf and start looking through the scriptures to see it is true or not.

    Please keep your heart open.

    Much Agape to you and your loved ones,

    Your servant and brother,
    Andybob

    • Barbara LeFevre

      Andybob~

      This response has taken a lot longer than I thought it would, and I’ve only addressed a handful of what you and Dale have written although I tried to address the crucial verses and points. I should have it posted by tomorrow.

      I’m sorry about the delay.

      Barbara

      • http://www.aol.com Andybob

        Okay thanks!

        AB

  • Barbara LeFevre

    Andybob~

    Although I am writing to you, some of my responses will be to Dale’s comments. There is one thing that I need to mention, which is very important if we are to have any kind of meaningful dialogue. I’ve been in many conversations with people who have different theological views from me. Many times, rather than address the exact issue/verse/question that I have put forth, they answer with something related to it or ignore it all together by citing another verse. This is a fallacy in argument because the intent is to take the attention away from the real argument, which is obviously done because the person has no credible answer to give. I’m not saying that you are going to do this. I just need it clarified at the beginning that I have spoken to your exact concerns, and I expect the same. (Even as I was preparing this response, I read your July 31 post. Rather than just answering the questions that I asked, you included one section to me for the second time and another section that you had posted three times, twice to me, and I had even asked you not to tell me WHY you believed certain things because I already knew why; you had already shared that information; I just wanted specific statements of belief. Also, you wrote that you aren’t familiar with the website that I listed. Whether or not you are familiar with them isn’t the point. I wanted to know whether what you believed was in keeping with the articles. You also made a point of sharing your opinion on Mary being the mother of God and stuff about the Rapture. This is exactly the problem I have in getting into these discussions. If we are going to talk about the Trinity and whether Jesus is God, I don’t want to talk about Mary or the Rapture or anything else. To me, as I just wrote, those are just decoy tactics (red-herring arguments) to take the focus off the topic. Again, and I really don’t want to be rude about this because you seem to be a very nice person, and I know that you have a heart for God (I read your Aug. 2 post), but I have to insist that we stick to the narrow focus of the two topics mentioned, or I just won’t continue. I am not going to spend hours preparing a response only to have it wholly ignored as we go around a myriad of other topics.) In addition, while I understand that you don’t want to speak for Dale, you have, on several posts, complimented him on his ability to correctly explain Oneness doctrine as well as the Bible, meaning that you are in agreement with him. Therefore, you should also be able to address at least most of my comments to him because they are, in essence, exactly what you believe.

    Before I address the specific verses that I and many others believe illustrate that there is a Triune God, there is one specific point that I would like you to consider: One argument that is put forth against the Trinity is that there is not even one scripture reference that explicitly states something like, “I am a Triune God” and that the absence of this specific declaration categorically disproves that there is one. Dale agrees with this argument as illustrated in his July 13 post when he wrote, “Nowhere does it say these exact words: ‘God is three.’ If the Bible says God is one and no where [sic] says God is three, then you can be sure God is one and not three and all the ambiguous scriptures that you use to interpret a trinity must be interpreted in the light of these clear verses that clearly say GOD IS ONE.” I’m sure that you would agree that if people are holding others to a specific standard of proof for something that they are also accountable to provide that exact proof. Based upon the criterion that you have stipulated, then, you need to provide the exact verse that says that “Jesus did not exist (except in the mind of God by foreknowledge)” as Dale wrote on July 18. Remember, now, I am not asking for any other verses or any additional reasoning, only that you provide the exact evidence that you require of us, an absolute scriptural declaration. (Just so there is no misunderstanding on terms, I fully discuss the discrepancy that both of you interject into your argument about when Jesus existed and when the second person of the Trinity existed in the fourth fallacy below, so you may want to read that before responding).

    On July 13, Andy wrote, “There is no basis in the Bible for the Trinity so says the Bible Scholars of the International Bible Encyclopedia.” Dale also suggested this article on July 20. I went to the link that you provided and scanned it, and what I found was a very substantial presentation in favor of the absolute biblical reality of the Triune nature of God. Andybob, it’s obvious that you didn’t even read any of this article from which I took these two excerpts: “The doctrine of the Trinity lies in Scripture in solution; when it is crystallized from its solvent it does not cease to be Scriptural, but only comes into clearer view” (Point 1). Also, “The whole book is Trinitarian to the core; all its teaching is built on the assumption of the Trinity; and its allusions to the Trinity are frequent, cursory, easy and confident” (Point 7). I don’t believe that you were purposefully trying to be deceitful, so I have to assume that someone told you about this site and you merely passed it on to us. I don’t want to be insulting to you, but it does make me wonder how much of what you have written on this blog is from personal prayer and study and how much of it is merely the repeated thoughts of others. In addition, that a group of people convened in the second and fifth centuries to decide what they do and do not believe carries no sway with me. I don’t look to Nicaea or Chalcedon to tell me what the Bible says or what Christianity is anymore than I look to Vatican I or II. That’s why God gave us His Word and His Spirit.

    There is so much that you and Dale have written about the deity of Jesus and the Trinity that it would take far too much time and effort to address everything, but I have tried to address enough of your points to make a solid case for the deity of Christ and the Trinity, keeping in mind that only one is needed.

    On July 14, Dale quoted John 1:1, using the word “TOWARD” rather than “with,” what he termed a “clear deliberate miss-translation [sic] by the KJV and other translations.” Because Dale admonishes us to use “simple logic or reasoning,” then Dale also needs to use it. Here are some of the fallacies I found in Dale’s argument:

    ~Dale’s first logical fallacy is presenting only limited information in order to secure a desired end. Yes, the word “pros” does mean “toward,” but it doesn’t only carry that narrow definition. According to Strong’s (G4314), pros means “at, near, or by,” and the corresponding Thayer’s explanation is that “it is used of close proximity-the idea of direction though not entirely lost, being more or less weakened….b) i.q. (Lat. apud) with, with the acc. of a person, after verbs of remaining, dwelling, tarrying, etc. (which require one to be conceived of as always turned towards one).” Not only do we find, then, that “with” is not the totally inappropriate word that Dale defines it as but that it is very much a synonym in its contextual use. The other problem that you (Dale) are faced with comes from your elaborate explanation and analogy of Logos as nothing more than God expressing Himself through His Words because, according to you, then, God’s words would be facing toward Him; they would actually be separated from Him as entities on their own, what you explained as “standing towards God like a servant ready to do his will” (July 20). Tell me how “the mind, will, [and] purpose” OF God can exist as entities within themselves and independently of Him, outside of Him, facing toward Him?

    ~The second fallacy is found in his question, “How can the logos be God and at the same time be facing the God?” Well, the answer is very simple. The Logos can be God and be facing God if God is not a numerical one, if God is, indeed, a Trinity (only implied in this verse because only two of the three are mentioned). The reason that Dale’s question is a fallacy is because it is not asked as a sincere open-ended question that may have multiple answers; it is asked solely from the Oneness perspective that the Trinity cannot even be a possibility; therefore, the question that emanates from this premise is bound within circular reasoning: Because God is a numerical one, the logos cannot be Jesus, so Jesus cannot be God because God is a numerical one.

    ~The third fallacy is when Dale speaks for the Almighty when he wrote, “If God wanted to say Christ he would have used the Greek word “Christos….” This is just one of many examples of where Dale has taken it upon himself to presume what God and others should’ve/could’ve/would’ve said in any given verse or passage that doesn’t align itself to Oneness doctrine. Like others, I believe that God was exceedingly capable of transmitting His truth exactly as He purposed, which was according to His wisdom, not man’s, and I believe that He was and is perfectly capable of preserving His Word in copies or else He would have made the originals available to us. Perhaps there is another reason that God didn’t use the word “Christos.” Perhaps it is because this word is far too narrow to explain what the Logos is. Christos, as you know, means Messiah, but the Logos is not to be understood solely in terms of that one, albeit important, role. The Logos was and is much more than Messiah, so it would be highly limiting to our understanding of this word and verse and passage to contain it within the narrow expectation of the word “Christos” into which you have forced all argumentative consideration.

    ~The fourth fallacy comes from the form of questions and statements that both of you have put forth in order to prove that Jesus is not God or eternal. On July 13, Andybob wrote, “Jesus the man was born, right? How can he exist prior to being created in the womb of Mary by the the holy spirit of God?” On the same day, Dale wrote, “Jesus Christ could not exist before he was born. No one can exist before they existed. There was a time that Jesus did not exist except in the mind of God who knows the end form the beginning.” When you ask whether “Jesus the man” “exist[ed] before prior to being created in the womb of Mary,…” you are asking a loaded question akin to “Have you stopped beating your wife yet?” Regardless of whether one answers yes or no, you will be proven right because the form of your question/statement attempts to elicit a response to serve your agenda. If we say no, then you can say that this proves that Jesus is not eternal/God. If we say yes, then you will demand OT proof that Jesus (the man) existed, and there isn’t any. If your desire is to really know biblical truth, as you imply, you need to phrase your ideas within the bounds of legitimate argument. To set the record straight, no Trinitarian believes that the human being who was named Jesus at His physical birth existed as a man before He was born to Mary. What Trinitarians do believe is that the second person of the Trinity, the Logos that has eternally existed as God (Jn. 1:1) was a Spirit until He took on the flesh of man at His physical birth (Jn. 1:14). He was 100 % God and 100% man, which goes a long way in understanding how and why Andybob’s lists on God and Jesus are not properly interpreted. I find it odd that you (Dale) can find so much fault, not only with what we believe but with how we arrive at our conclusions, when you are not only ignorant of the most basic facts regarding the Trinity but that you have to resort to fallacy to prove your points. I have one more point regarding Jesus’ birth. Please show me any scriptural proof to support the idea that “[God’s] thought or desire in action, resulted in a sperm with the chromosomes and genes that God wanted, being placed in Mary, and this in turn, resulted in Christ, the only begotten of the Father.” Both Matthew 1:18 and Luke 1:35 testify that Jesus was conceived by supernatural means, that the Holy Spirit came upon Mary and the Highest overshadowed her. No one, including myself, understands exactly what took place; however, nowhere is it stated or even implied that God had to resort to using “sperm,” something He provided as a complement to the egg by which His creatures could procreate. It was a supernatural (of God) conception, meaning that it is above and beyond that which is natural (e.g. sperm).

    ~You (Dale) take those of us who believe in a Triune God to task through a series of questions such as “Have you checked out the Greek of John 1:1-13?…Then how do you know that the logos is Christ? You have to dig more than what is on the surface if you what to discover truth.” For starters, I think it’s a pretty safe guess to assume that Jim Mulligan, Justin Alfred, and Robert Bowman, Jr. have done all you have demanded and more, and I dare say that they have done far more than you, and they disagree with you. In addition, some people who have contributed to this blog also do what you ask, and they also disagree with you, so despite your insistence that no one has been able “to refute” what you have written, many people have done just that; it’s just that you won’t acknowledge it. As far as my knowledge goes, I have not studied Greek formally. I am learning from books that I own, the BLB offerings, the many biblical sources online, including Greek/English interlinears that can be studied, and it’s not hard to figure out what is being said in John 1. I believe it was Justin Alfred who said something to the effect that while the Greek certainly adds depth and richness to the Word, it doesn’t change it. In other words, one doesn’t have to be a Greek or Hebrew scholar to understand the truth of the Bible.

    (ANDYBOB AND DALE~ THE PART OF MY RESPONSE THAT I WAS INCLUDING HERE WAS ON JOHN 1:1-14. IT IS, AS YOU KNOW, A VERY IMPORTANT PASSAGE WHEN DISCUSSING THE DEITY OF CHRIST AND WHETHER OR NOT THERE IS A TRINITY. AS I WAS FINISHING UP, I CAME ACROSS A WEBSITE BY SOMEONE NAMED MARK, WHO HOLDS TO YOUR VIEWS. I READ WHAT HE HAD TO SAY. HE USED WILLIAM TYNDALE’S TRANSLATION TO ILLUSTRATE HOW MODERN TRANSLATORS HAVE ERRED ALTHOUGH I DON’T KNOW WHY HE CONSIDERS TYNDALE MORE CREDIBLE AS A TRANSLATOR THAN THOSE WHO CAME AFTER HIM. ANYWAY, I WAS THINKING THAT THIS PARTICULAR PASSAGE, GIVEN ITS IMPORTANCE, IS PROBABLY GOING TO NEED A GREAT DEAL OF SPACE TO THOROUGHLY DEVELOP, AND THIS RESPONSE, AS YOU CAN SEE, IS ALREADY TOO LONG. THEREFORE, IF IT IS OKAY WITH YOU, I WOULD LIKE TO HOLD OFF, AT LEAST WITH MOST OF THE DISCUSSION, UNTIL A LATER TIME. NOW, HAVING SAID THIS, I HAVE LEFT ONE PARAGRAPH IN BECAUSE I THINK IT INCLUDES INFORMATION THAT WASN’T ADDRESSED BY MARK, FURTHERMORE, I HAVE REFERENCED SOME OF IT ELSEWHERE, AND I JUST DON’T WANT TO GO BACK AND COMB THROUGH THIS RESPONSE TO EDIT EVERYTHING. I HOPE THIS MAKES SENSE. IF POSSIBLE, THEN, COULD YOU JUST LIMIT YOUR COMMENTS TO WHAT LITTLE I HAVE WRITTEN, KNOWING I HAVEN’T ADDRESSED EVERYTHING, AND THEN WE’LL PICK IT UP LATER WHEN I HAVE THE TIME TO FULLY EXAMINE MARK’S (AND YOUR) CLAIMS? THANKS!)

    (Remaining paragraph) Also, in trying to rid the Logos of any status of an actual being, you have attempted to confine all understanding of the word solely in terms of figurative language, ignoring the fact that anything defined in figurative terms always has a corresponding reality either as an animate or inanimate object just as when Jesus called Himself “the door” (Jn. 10:9) and “the vine” (Jn. 15:5). When you say that the Logos “is God in expression but not God in totality,” then why did John refer to the Logos as God rather than as merely an expression of God? As inspired by the Holy Spirit (II Pet. 1:21), John’s words and the unfolding of truth are very specific so that they cannot be misinterpreted. By differentiating “God” (Ton Theon) in the phrase “and the Word was with God” from “God” (theos) in the phrase “and the Word was God,” John is purposefully distinguishing the idea that while the Word is wholly God, God is more than the Word (i.e. Jesus is God but God is more than Jesus). Considering, too, that he was a monotheist, he wouldn’t have written anything that could have been construed as polytheist. In light of the rest of the verse, this can only mean that the Word, or Logos, existed with God (Ton Theon) eternally and externally in a personal, face-to-face (toward) relationship with Him as God Himself. Finally, you wrote, the “lack of [an] article show[s] the logos is not identical to God but has attributes and characteristics of God.” Perhaps there is another reason that John didn’t include a definite article. Had he, we would have been left with “the God was the Word,” which even disagrees with your viewpoint. Given the fact that John is introducing the Word to readers, it doesn’t seem likely that he would break the flow of thought to tell us that “the God is the Word,” especially because he clearly wrote that “the Word was God.” Yes, the second person of the Trinity is the Word, the complete and perfect expression (Logos) of God the Father, the full revelation of God to man because, obviously, the nature and essence of God cannot vary, but the text very much proves, in Greek and English, that the Word was both a separate entity and God.

    On July 13 Andybob wrote, “No where is he [Jesus] called God or God the son and no one has called him that in the scriptures,” and on the same day, Dale wrote, “Jesus was not God nor worshipped as God.” (caps mine)

    ~“Behold, a virgin shall be with child, and shall bring forth a son, and they shall call his name Emmanuel, which being interpreted is, GOD WITH US” (Matt. 1:23).
    ~ “And Thomas answered and said unto him, My Lord and MY GOD” (Jn. 20:28).

    In these verses, Jesus is very much called God. With regard to the first verse, we know that His proper name was never meant to be “Emmanuel” because an angel of the Lord told Joseph, “thou shalt call his name JESUS” (Matt. 1:20-21). The “name” or ‘onoma’ (Strong’s G3686) in this context refers to Jesus’ character, that He was God manifested in the flesh, not that God worked through the flesh, mind you, but that He was “made flesh” (Jn. 1:14). All of Andybob’s verses citing the human aspects of Jesus don’t mean that He wasn’t also fully God. As the Matthew 1:23 verse proves, God did become a man.

    You (Dale) also give some of the most biblically unsound and logically unreasonable explanations of John 20:28 to rid Jesus of His deity that I have ever heard outside the Watchtower Society. I guess that “The Word of God was written to impart knowledge and it imparts knowledge through clear understandable of the words of scripture” (July 13) only holds unless these “clear understandable…words of scripture” contradict Oneness doctrine, as this verse most emphatically does. Then, apparently, it’s okay to just add to God’s Word as you did when including a suggested scenario to tell us what Thomas was really saying and doing to dispose of the deity of Christ as well as a Trinity. You wrote, “He could have said, first to Jesus: ‘My Lord, it’s really you, you have been risen from the dead just like you said’ and then in the same breath or with a pause said to Yahweh: ‘My God, it is true, you did raise Jesus from the dead.’” In other words, you have removed the evidence from God’s Word so that you can claim that there isn’t any evidence. This is neither honest nor credible. In addition, you offered the following statement to support the Oneness view: “You cannot tell from the Greek word ‘and’ if John was relating to us that Thomas made 2 statements: one, ‘My Lord’ and the other statement, ‘My God’ OR that Thomas said ‘My Lord and “my God’ all in one breath.” What is painfully obvious, here, is that you CAN tell how the “Greek word ‘and’” is used. It is used exactly how the English word “and” is used, to join words, phrases, and clauses. In John 20:28, the word “and” means “and,” and it is used to join the phrases “My Lord” and “My God” in clear reference to Jesus Christ, and no amount of manipulation concerning where Thomas was looking or how many breaths he took or the type of punctuation that accompanies his declaration changes that fact. Furthermore, we are actually told that Thomas’ words were “UNTO HIM” (caps mine), referring, of course, to Jesus Christ. That you have to rely upon the addition of imaginary dialogues and monologues as you have here and elsewhere illustrates that you are unable to rightly divide the Word (II Tim. 2:15), which has resulted in a forced and false theology. The truth is that God, in His wisdom, inspired men to convey His truth exactly how He wanted, and He has given us the Holy Spirit to take that truth and convey it to believers (Jn. 16:13). God’s Word is perfectly understandable and reconcilable, and believers don’t need the addition of imaginary conversations from any person or group to enlighten us to that truth.
    Both of you cited many verses in support of your belief that Jesus was only a man and that God worked through Him to accomplish His purposes. Except for the Jesus-is-only-a-man part, you are right. The Father did work His will through Christ, but this doesn’t prove that Jesus wasn’t God, only that He fully submitted Himself to the will of the Father. To better explain this, here is an excerpt that I included in my recent response to Kenneth:

    Although not a comprehensive list, we know that Jesus came to teach, to show us the Father, to die for our sins, and to model a life in total subjection to the Father, and it is this last reason by which we can understand verses such as John 14:28. He is not speaking from His eternal “equal” position in the Trinity but from an earthly position of submission to God as a man, just exactly what we are expected to do. Think about it. How could God truly judge us and truly empathize with us if He, Himself, had never suffered the real trials and temptations of mortal life that we all do? This is the exact truth being put forth in Hebrews 4:15 which says, “For we do not have a High Priest who cannot sympathize with our weaknesses, but was in all points tempted as we are, yet without sin” (NKJV). There is so much we can learn from Jesus’ place in God’s plan of salvation. Scriptures such as John 14:28 can be better understood by grasping one great truth: God, the second person in the Trinity, humbled Himself and became a man, and He lived His life without sin and in TOTAL submission to the Father, not availing Himself of the divine rank and privilege which was His due as God. He was born as a man, lived as a man, and died as a man, so that no man could ever call into question His rightful ability to extend peace and grace as well as His rightful place to judge. He can empathize because He suffered, and He can judge because He was tempted. John 5:19-20 is another example of Christ’s submission to the Father: “Then answered Jesus and said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, The Son can do nothing of himself, but what he seeth the Father do: for what things soever he doeth, these also doeth the Son likewise. For the Father loveth the Son, and sheweth him all things that himself doeth: and he will shew him greater works than these, that ye may marvel.” It’s the phrase “The son can do nothing of himself” that is of importance. It’s not that the Son cannot literally do anything of himself; He’s the Sovereign Creator for heaven’s sake, meaning He can do EVERYTHING by himself, even raise Himself from the dead (Jn. 10:18) although He even submitted this to the Father. This idea of total submission isn’t taught within the body of Christ as it should be, and there are consequences for not living our lives in that submission. Romans 14:11, I Corinthians 15:25, and Philippians 2:10, for example, say that all things will be brought into subjection to Jesus Christ so that what is in subjection to Jesus Christ will, in turn, be put into subjection to the Father (Col. 1:20, I Cor 15:27-28), and all else will perish. By perfectly modeling subjection to the Father, He is showing us how we are to live our lives so that we will truly be in Christ when He turns all things over to the Father. Everything that Jesus did as a man, then, was for the express purpose of modeling total submission to the will of God but, in no way, should it be understood that He, Himself, was not fully God.

    Miscellaneous Verses on deity and eternal nature of Christ (all caps mine):

    ~Jn. 5:37 – “And the Father himself, which hath SENT ME, hath borne witness of me. Ye have neither heard his voice at any time, nor seen his shape.”
    “Me,” a personal pronoun, indicating an actual entity, is what was sent by God, not a plan or foreknowledge of Christ (read also Jn. 3:16, 6:38). Also, Jesus’ comment to the Jews about their not hearing God’s voice or seeing God’s shape would have been absurd had He not actually heard or seen them Himself, calling attention to both His deity and His eternal nature.

    ~Jn. 1:18 – “No man hath seen God at any time; the only begotten Son, which is in the bosom of the Father, he HATH DECLARED [him].”
    Strong’s G1834 (exegeomai)
    Thayer’s “unfold, declare”
    Vine’s “lit., “to lead out,” signifies ‘to make known, rehearse, declare’… in the sentence ‘He hath declared Him,’ the other meaning of the verb is in view, to unfold in teaching, ‘to declare’ by making known.”
    Given the context that “No man hath seen God,” it is obvious that the point that John is trying to make is that the Son can declare God because He HAS seen Him, and a plan or a thought of foreknowledge cannot do anything, including seeing God.

    ~Jn. 17:5 – “And now, O Father, glorify thou me with thine own self with the glory which I HAD with thee BEFORE THE WORLD WAS.”
    Because the second person of the Trinity, known as Jesus on Earth, existed before the foundation of the world and had glory with the Father, He is both eternal and God.

    ~Heb. 1:8 – (Ps. 45:6) “But unto the Son [he saith], Thy throne, O GOD, [is] for ever and ever: a sceptre of righteousness [is] the sceptre of thy kingdom.”
    Here, God Himself is referring to Jesus as “God.” If anyone should know, it would be Him, and your (Dale’s) comment that “the correct reading of verse 8 is ‘Your throne is God’” with the accompanying explanation (July 20) illustrates that you are not as studied in Hebrew or Greek as you claim to be. Many times, you have criticized Trinitarians for what you believe to be a total lack of studying on our part into the Hebrew and Greek to find out what Scripture is really saying (“Have you checked out the Greek…? … You have to dig more than what is on the surface if you what to discover truth”). The truth is that in both the Hebrew (Ps. 45:6) and the Greek (Heb. 1:8), the phrase is “the throne of you.” It is clearly possessive. In addition, your claim that this phrase is a figure of speech is just biblically egregious. You can’t, as you have here and with the Logos (Jn. 1:1) take that which disagrees with Oneness doctrine and attempt to force it into some type of figurative pigeonhole. There are rules and language conventions that govern how we are to encode and decode words and phrases, and they will reveal that some type of figurative language is being used, and the fact is that there is just absolutely nothing in either the Psalms’ verse or the Hebrews’ verse that is doing this. If you’re going to insist that we are to understand this phrase as a metonymy rather than in the plain, literal sense in which it is written, then the burden of proof is yours to provide the internal evidence to support your claim.

    ~ Heb. 3:1-6 – “Wherefore, holy brethren, partakers of the heavenly calling, consider the Apostle and High Priest of our profession, Christ Jesus; Who was faithful to him [GOD THE FATHER] that appointed him [JESUS], as also Moses [was faithful] in all his house. For this [man-JESUS] was counted worthy of more glory than Moses, inasmuch as he who hath builded the house [JESUS] hath more honour than the house. For every house is builded by some [man]; but HE THAT BUILT ALL THINGS [IS] GOD. And Moses verily [was] faithful in all his house, as a servant, for a testimony of those things which were to be spoken after; But Christ as a son over his own house; whose house are we, if we hold fast the confidence and the rejoicing of the hope firm unto the end.”
    Doesn’t this passage clearly say that Jesus, as the builder of the house, is God?

    Other Concerns

    On July 14, Dale wrote, “I have already explained the meaning John 8:58. Jesus was not claiming to be God. God was expressing himself through Christ (the logos) by speaking directly through him like God does through saints who give forth a prophecy.” Dale, you can’t just say things and expect them to be accepted without offering any proof. In the first place, biblical prophets always prefaced their prophecies by announcing that it was, indeed, the LORD who was speaking and not them as when Elisha said, “Hear ye the word of the LORD” (II Kings 7:1b) and as Jeremiah did when he said, “Moreover the word of the LORD came unto me, saying” (Jer. 1:11a) and as Ezekiel did when he said, “hear the word of the Lord GOD; Thus saith the Lord GOD” (Eze. 6:3b). Secondly, can you give an example of even one “saint” who has spoken prophecy and not credited God in some way to distinguish that the words were from God and not from him/her? For someone who accuses others of taking liberties with the Word, you’re going to have to offer something other than your opinion because this verse clearly attributes the utterance to Jesus. In addition, the context also supports that Jesus was speaking for Himself. This is borne out in verses 52-59 where we learn that the subject of the passage is clearly Jesus, not the Father. Also, if He weren’t really speaking for Himself but for God the Father, why would the Jews have picked up stones to throw at Him (v. 59)? Certainly they knew that God was around before Abraham, and if they were mistaken in thinking that Jesus was talking about Himself and not God, certainly Jesus would have corrected them. There is a very good article on Jesus calling Himself ‘Ego Eimi.’ Google “The Purpose and Meaning of ‘Ego Eimi’ in the Gospel of John” by James White. I would be interested in what you think.

    On July 13, Andybob wrote, “Jesus was only a man like you and I….” With all due respect, even a partial list includes the facts that Jesus was the Messiah sent by God to die for mankind; He incurred the full wrath of God for each of our sins; He was born of a virgin after the Holy Spirit came upon Mary and the Highest overshadowed her; He was tempted by Satan himself for 40 days while on a complete fast; He was sinless; He forgave sins; He is the Truth; He knew the hearts and minds of people; He is the only Mediator between God and man; He is the firstborn of the dead; He is king of kings and Lord of lords; He is the Light in a darkened world; He is the only Way to the Father; He is now sitting at the right hand of majesty. What “man” is He like?

    On July 16, Dale quoted Donald Lee Barnett: “But this cannot be Jesus in the time of the Old Testament Scriptures (called the pre-incarnate Christ) because Jesus didn’t live at the time that the Old Testament Scriptures were penned; He was born near the close of the Old Testament age in Bethlehem (hundreds of years after the last of the Old Testament was penned).” In the first place, if you’re going to quote someone as a biblical scholar to prove your points, you need to choose someone whose behaviors are in keeping with someone whose life is clearly guided by the truth and purity of the Holy Spirit, and clearly, his was not. Secondly, what you have chosen as support makes no sense. Did you take the time to actually read what he said? He’s trying to get rid of the existence of Jesus in the OT because Jesus hadn’t been born yet. Of course, it can’t be Jesus the man because He hadn’t been born yet. That’s exactly why He’s called the “pre-incarnate Christ,” something Barnett even acknowledges.

    On July 20, Dale wrote, “If the Jews believed in a Trinity, they certainly would have recognized Jesus as the Second Person of the Triune God and accepted Him.” Based upon this logic, then, tell me why the Jews didn’t recognize Jesus as the Messiah because He was the Messiah, and they certainly believed that a Messiah was coming.

    On July 20, Dale wrote, “We will never see God in heaven except in Jesus and in one another.” Matthew 5:8 says, “Blessed are the pure in heart, for they shall see God.”

    On July 20, Dale wrote, “John 10:33 says the Unbelieving Jews were ready to stone Jesus for they thought he was claiming to be God in John 10:33. This was their false perception for Jesus never claimed this. In fact he refuted this by saying:…” In your explanation, you have again attempted to rid Jesus of His deity by saying that He actually “refuted” it, but, in reality, He did no such thing. First, we read in verse 33 that the Jews picked up stones to kill Jesus for blasphemy according to their law (Lev. 24:11-16) “because that thou, being a man, makest thyself God.” What you failed to include in your explanation was the other bookend to the passage, verse 39, which says, “Therefore they sought again to take him: but he escaped out of their hand.” In other words, Jesus’ explanation in verses 34-38 couldn’t mean that He was refuting the Jews “false perception” because after Jesus, the master teacher, finished His explanation, the Jews, again, attempted to stone Him, and because no new information was given, we can rightly assume that it was for the exact reason, that He “maketh [Himself] God. In fact, this isn’t even the first time this type of scenario occurred. In John 5:18, we read, “Therefore the Jews sought the more to kill him, because he not only had broken the sabbath, but said also that God was his Father, making himself equal with God,” and Jesus didn’t offer one word of correction here either.

    On July 20, Dale wrote, “Christ was perfected: Christ grew in favor with God and man (Luke 2:52). If Jesus was God why does he need to grow in favor with God? Did he grow in favor with himself? Did God the son grow in favor with God the Father, if so, how is he coequal?… Jesus learned obedience from the things he suffered (Heb 5:8). This does not mean he was ever disobedient but his relationship with his father become stronger and deeper as he obeyed and did the will of his father each day. …His love for God grew each step of obedience in doing God’s will every single day. None of this makes any sense if he was God! How can the almighty God suffer in any way? Did he learn obedience to himself?” These comments, in addition to Andybob’s list detailing the attributes of God and those of Jesus, cannot be explained or understood outside the Trinity and the incarnation of Jesus (second Person). As John 1:14 and Matthew 1:23 prove, God became man and dwelt among us. Jesus was, as I wrote earlier, 100% God and 100% man. How this works, I don’t know, but when Scripture is read in light of this fact, then one does not have to invent conversations or manipulate the plain sense of the written Word to develop doctrine, and one does not have to resort to fallacious argument to support his/her theology. In order to stand as perfect judge, perfect mediator, perfect Savior, and perfect empathizer with mankind, God became one of us, willingly forgoing His rightful rule, honor, and privilege. In this capacity, He grew in favor with God BECAUSE He learned obedience as a man upon the Earth, something He hadn’t needed to do as part of His eternal status because the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit were in perfect and complete harmony. As eternal God, He never suffered, and as any believer knows, any great, lasting, and meaningful growth in Christ comes only through suffering, whether at the hands of others or in dying to oneself in daily life or in tragedy because it is these things that compel us to look outside of ourselves and to rely upon the Spirit in all things rather than in our flesh. This is exactly what Jesus Christ did on Earth. He humbled Himself, not availing Himself of His rightful due because, had He, it would have defeated one of the purposes of His coming to Earth, to perfectly model the behavior that we are called to do so that one day we will also be glorified. This is the whole point of Philippians 2:5-11.

    This response is long, so I know it will take you awhile to go through it and respond given your busy schedule. Again, I would please ask that you confine your answers to the specific points that I have addressed because I only addressed those points that both of you brought up. Also, I don’t mind being wrong, but I don’t just want to be given scriptures that appear to contradict my opinion. I also want thorough explanation as to why my comments are unsound.
    I will check back every day to see if you have any questions or if I need to clarify anything.

    Thanks for your patience! I pray that I have rightly divided the Word and that I have explained it in love. May God grant each of us the wisdom and discernment we need to understand the great truths He has given us.

    Barbara

    • Barbara LeFevre

      Andybob~

      There are some verses that I inadvertently left out of the discussion centering around the claim that Jesus is never identified as God. Matthew 3:3 says, “For this is he [Jesus] that was spoken of by the prophet Esaias, saying, The voice of one crying in the wilderness, Prepare ye the way of the Lord, make his paths straight.” As the context reveals, John the Baptist is heralding the arrival of Jesus Christ as a fulfillment of what Isaiah prophesied: “The voice of him that crieth in the wilderness, Prepare ye the way of the LORD, make straight in the desert a highway for our God’ (Is. 40:3). Now, one may make the argument that Jesus is merely ‘Lord’ based upon the Matthew verse because the word used is “kyrios,” which has several applications. However, the Isaiah verse is not so general, clearly using the word “LORD,” or “Yahweh,” in reference to Jesus. Also, that Jesus is God is just one idea that can be taken from Malachi 3:1b which says, “and the Lord, whom ye seek, shall suddenly come to his temple, even the messenger of the covenant, whom ye delight in.” The “messenger of the covenant” is Jesus, and this excerpt says that He will “come to his temple.” If the temple is “his,” then He is God.

      I know you have a lot to go through, but I think that these are crucial verses that need to be brought into harmony with what you believe. Let me know what you think.

      Barbara

      • http://www.aol.com andybob98

        Sister Barbara,

        You’re getting close to the revelation of who God is and who Jesus is…

        I used to believe like you did in that Jesus had a dual nauture 100% man and 100% diety.

        The greek word EN is used a lot in the verses you’ve pointed out and I am praying that you will get the revelation that it was GOD (Yahweh) “in” Jesus Christ doing the works.

        Once you see this you will understand that God was in Christ reconciling the world to Himself just as He (Yahweh) is in us reconciling the world to himself.

        I felt offended by the way you approached your responses to me. As to how a human being is made in the womb of a woman because most educated adults understand how life is concieved. You totally missed the point in that Jesus, the man, did not exist until the the Holy Spirit of God visited her when Gabriel spoke to her and Jesus (The Man) was created in her womb. This is what I mean by saying a person cannot exist until they exist.

        Emanuel = God With Us… God IN Christ answers one of the verses you mentioned.

        Yahweh (God) did the miracles through the man Christ Jesus.

        The word “Christ” means annointed that is God annointing the man.

        You need to stop looking at the trinitarian teaching that Jesus pre-existed because it was God that always existed and when the man Jesus Christ was created he had to grow up like the rest of mankind does and as he grew up he learned many things. One of them was learning to be obedient to God. Scriptures says he learned obedience through the things he sufferred.

        God, who knows all things, does not have to learn these things because He is ALL Knowing… right? But a man has to learn them and as the scriptures say Jesus learned.

        It was hard for me to understand just like it is for you but when I realized that it was God IN Christ these hard to understand scriptures were easy to understand.

        As you go through the Gospels in your daily readings take note as to whether or not it is God in Christ speaking or doing a miracle or it is the man Christ Jesus speaking.

        When Jesus was baptized by John in the river Jordan it was not God being baptized but the man Christ being baptized.

        When Jesus was hungry and ate something it was not God who was hungry it was the man Jesus Christ because God is a spirit that fills heaven and earth.

        When Jesus Christ died or was tempted it was a man being tempted not God because God cannot be tempted.

        When Jesus Christ prayed it was not one God praying to another God but it was the man Jesus Christ praying to our God and Father, Yahweh.

        When Jesus Christ was beat up and whipped it was not the all powerful God being beat up and whipped it was the man.

        There are so many scriptures that when viewed with the understanding that Jesus Christ a man with God living in him doing the works then they make perfect sense.

        Hang in there sis!

        Your Brother,
        AB

        • Barbara LeFevre

          Andybob~

          In entering this dialogue with you, I only asked a few considerations. One was that you address the exact issue/verse/question that I put forth as I did with you and Dale, and another was that you give a thorough explanation as to why my comments were wrong if they were. After spending many hours composing a response with lengthy explanations and scriptural support, I was met with a handful of one-liners that were nothing more than condensed repeats of previous responses. The rest of your response was taken up with comments telling me that I need to “stop looking at the trinitarian teaching that Jesus pre-existed…” or that I “…totally missed the point in that Jesus, the man, did not exist until the the Holy Spirit of God visited her….” when you offer no proof of either of these statements. In fact, you didn’t offer any proof for anything you wrote because you prove your points by using faulty interpretation, by isolating verses from their context, and by totally ignoring the verses that contradict what you believe. For example, you not only took great and unfounded liberties with the wording of Matthew 1:23 to arrive at your conclusion that Jesus is not God, you didn’t address John 20:28 at all because there is no credible way to rid Jesus of His deity in this verse.

          As I’ve always said, if I am wrong, I want to know, but merely telling me I’m wrong because I believe something is not a sound conclusion; you have to provide solid evidence. I’m not trying to do anything but get you to look at the verses that you and Dale have used to support your Oneness belief and see if they can truly stand within themselves and in light of other Scripture. I gave what I believe to be thorough explanations that were both reasonable and biblically credible to prove a Triune God, and I did so by addressing the exact verses and explanations that you and Dale gave, but you were unable to offer anything to contradict my arguments. The fact is, people can explain what they understand, so you shouldn’t have had any problem presenting a well-thought-out rebuttal to everything that I wrote.

          I certainly don’t want to continue if this is the type of dialogue that is going to take place. If you would like to go through my response and tell me exactly why my reasoning is wrong, then I will listen. If you just want to look at a few examples, then that is fine, too. I would be very interested in how you reconcile Oneness doctrine to the following verses: Matthew 3:3 (Is. 40:3); John 17:5, 20:28; Hebrews 1:8 (Ps. 45:6), 3:1-6.

          I hope to hear from you.
          Barbara

          • Barbara LeFevre

            The last Scripture passage I cited is in Hebrews.

  • David Barnett

    John 1:1-14 (NKJV)
    1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
    2 He was in the beginning with God.
    3 All things were made through Him, and without Him nothing was made that was made.
    4 In Him was life, and the life was the light of men.
    5 And the light shines in the darkness, and the darkness did not comprehend it.
    6 There was a man sent from God, whose name was John.
    7 This man came for a witness, to bear witness of the Light, that all through him might believe.
    8 He was not that Light, but was sent to bear witness of that Light.
    9 That was the true Light which gives light to every man coming into the world.
    10 He was in the world, and the world was made through Him, and the world did not know Him.
    11 He came to His own, and His own did not receive Him.
    12 But as many as received Him, to them He gave the right to become children of God, to those who believe in His name:
    13 who were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God.
    14 And the Word became flesh and dwelt among us, and we beheld His glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father, full of grace and truth.
    John 8:58 (NKJV)
    58 Jesus said to them, “Most assuredly, I say to you, before Abraham was, I AM.”
    Revelation 19:11-16 (NKJV)
    11 Now I saw heaven opened, and behold, a white horse. And He who sat on him was called Faithful and True, and in righteousness He judges and makes war.
    12 His eyes were like a flame of fire, and on His head were many crowns. He had a name written that no one knew except Himself.
    13 He was clothed with a robe dipped in blood, and His name is called The Word of God.
    14 And the armies in heaven, clothed in fine linen, white and clean, followed Him on white horses.
    15 Now out of His mouth goes a sharp sword, that with it He should strike the nations. And He Himself will rule them with a rod of iron. He Himself treads the winepress of the fierceness and wrath of Almighty God.
    16 And He has on His robe and on His thigh a name written: KING OF KINGS AND LORD OF LORDS.

  • David Barnett

    Colossians 2:5-9 (NKJV)
    5 For though I am absent in the flesh, yet I am with you in spirit, rejoicing to see your good order and the steadfastness of your faith in Christ.
    6 As you have therefore received Christ Jesus the Lord, so walk in Him,
    7 rooted and built up in Him and established in the faith, as you have been taught, abounding in it with thanksgiving.
    8 Beware lest anyone cheat you through philosophy and empty deceit, according to the tradition of men, according to the basic principles of the world, and not according to Christ.
    9 For in Him dwells all the fullness of the Godhead bodily;

    • Barbara LeFevre

      David~

      Thank you for these verses. I know you posted a couple responses during this dialogue. I had totally forgotten about Revelation 19:13, which is another powerful witness for the deity of Christ. I pray that Andybob, Dale, and the others who hold to Oneness doctrine will be honest with these and other verses that contradict what they believe.

      Have a blessed weekend~
      Barbara

  • http://www.capitaldynamicsre.com Kenneth Jelladian

    Barbara:

    Here is my reply to your reply of July 18, 2012 from the category, “The Trinity: What Difference Does It Make?” Thank you for your reply of July 18, 2012. In your reply, I still haven’t received satisfactory answers to my assertions in your response to my first letter of July 2nd, so I repeat my assertions in this letter. You provide your own verses, in an attempt to support your own views, which I seek to address in this letter, but you do not and/or do not adequately address my assertions.

    Let’s first define the Trinitarian model so that we may have a point of reference for the purpose of clarity and understanding in this dialogue and reply.
    The trinitarian doctrine espouses co-equality in the relationship between The Father and The Son and the postulation that “there is only one God in three persons and that each person is God, whole and entire.” Wikipedia. Robert Bowman, Jr. defines the Trinity further, as we see in his “Commentaries, paragraph IV. C. 1. “ ‘ God exists as three “ ‘ persons ‘ ” as long as these persons are not separate beings. ” Don Stewart states that, “they are all Equally God,” in his BLB post June 26, 2012 in “The Definition of the Trinity.”
    So, Barbara, let’s continue. How then would you reconcile the trinitarian paradyne with the following verse’s?: “Ye have heard how I said unto you, I go away, and come again unto you. If ye loved me, ye would rejoice, because I said, I go unto the Father: for my Father is greater than I.” {John 14:28 KJV}. “My Father, which gave them me, is greater than all: and no man is able to pluck them out of my Father’s hand.” {John 10:29 KJV}. The question begged is if co-equality exists between Father and Son, why would The Son say that “my Father is greater than I?” and “greater than all?”
    Your 1st response leaves me unsatisfied, for want of credibility. You state, “He [Yahushua/Jesus] is not speaking from His eternal “equal” position in the Trinity but from an earthy position of submission to God as a man, just exactly what we are expected to do.” What is the scriptural basis for your assertion? I would like responses that use scriptural bases. Did it occur to you that Christ had to have been in submission to The Father also when He was sent from Heaven; He was then not acting from “an earthly position.” No man-made disqualifiers to justify one’s dogma (Trinitarianism) need be added to scripture–there are no assertions that state that Yahushua’s non-equal status was caused by His Descension. With no qualifiers, the truth of the Messiah’s status is clearly explained in scripture: “For I came down from heaven, not to do mine own will, but the will of him that sent me.” {John 6:38}. And revealed is His eternal position of submission : “If ye then be risen with Christ, seek those things which are above, where Christ sitteth on the right hand of God.” {Col. 3:1}. “I am: and ye shall see the Son of man sitting on the right hand of power, and coming in the clouds of heaven. {Mark 14:62}; And Acts 7:55; Ephesians 1:20; Heb 1:3; Luke 22:69; Mark 16:19}. Sitting at the right denotes being in submission. Why not take Yahushua/Jesus at His Word, rather than reading into The Word in order to justify your dogma, instead of letting The Word speak for itself? The scriptural basis that the Father is greater is stated as an absolute, which makes it clear and evident of the Father’s greater stature than the Son, contrary to the Trinitarian, anti-scriptural, man-made false dogma claiming co-equality. Remove your trinitarian blinder’s! All of you! Take them off! Come out of her my people! (Rev. 18:4}.
    “But I would have you know, that the head of every man is Christ: and the head of the woman is the man: and the head of Christ is God.” {1 Corinthithians 11:3}. Would you attempt to twist the purity of this verse also with that dogmatic creed? If Father and Son are “Co-Equal, how is co-equality status supported by the scriptural truth?: God is the Head of Christ. {1 Corinthian 11:3}. Please, no answer that uses the man-made, absurd, trite, scripturally defying fabrication akin to Christ was in submission to God while on the earth, therefore, only during that earthly time He was not equal. There is an essential heirarchy. That heirarchy applies “in earth as it is in Heaven.” {Mat. 6:10}. “The Kingdom of Heaven is at hand.” {Mat. 3:2; 4:17; 10:7}.
    If the Son was of co-equal status with the Father, “wholly God,” He would know all things. Mark 13:32 gives us a hint otherwise. “But of that day and that hour knoweth no man, no, not the angels which are in heaven, neither the Son, but the Father.”
    His lesser status than the Father is evidenced from His own words: “My Father, which gave them me, is greater than all…” which would include Himself, Yahushua/Jesus. {John 10:29}; Yahushua/Jesus say’s that He ascends to my God and your God, the “my” and “our” connoting the greater status of the object of the “my” and “our.” {John 20:17}; The Messiah’s reference to “my God” is also seen in Rev. 3:12, and observe that He is speaking from His place in the Heavenly’s and not from a place of His embodiment while on the earth! Yahushua/Jesus states that the servant is not greater than his lord and he that is sent is not greater than he that sent him. {John 13:16}. Your response sounds too much, to me, like a mental accommodation to side-step scripture in a need to maintain foundational support of the “sacred cow” that is the Trinity. Does a being’s earthly existence and position negate that being’s essential beingness? I think not. The same principle would apply to the Being Yahushua/Jesus, as evidenced in the aforementioned scriptures.
    Additionally, the possessive word “my, ” which Yahushua/Jesus uses, reveals the distinction of two beings. The trinity holds The Father and The Son as co-equal and each as being “wholly God.” “They are all equally God.” {definition by Don Schwarz in “The Definition of the Trinity,” BLB post June 26, 2012. The trinitarian view that there is one Being expressing as both Father and Son is not true. The key to understanding this paradox comes from embracing The Father and The Son as Elohim (Mighty Ones), operating in Echad, for then there is the recognition that there is a Being that is The Father and a Being that is The Son. The trinitarian, and it’s close cousin, Sabellianism, aka Modalism, view of One Being being both Father and Son, to me, would very much leave me with an empty feeling by not acknowledging and thus being able to honor the (interdependent) existence of Both. “Remember now your Creator’s…” {Eccl. 12:1}. Footnote 1 – “Et borecha. Literally: “your creators.” A reference to the plurality of divinity. Also the alef taf, or et (in the actual Hebrew) before “Creators” is a direct object pointer, indicating that the Creators are alef taf, [Father-YHWH And YHWH-Yahushua].” Restoration Scriptures True Name Edition. Note that the trinitarian influenced KJV uses the singular word “creator.” Robert Bowman Jr. in his Commentaires, approaches the treasure that would unlock the key by touching on the word elohim, but he then “walks” away in confusion, using undocumented and incomprehensible phrases like, “the “’literary plural’” (possibly, though never clearly, attested in Paul) is irrelevant to texts in which God is speaking, not writing,” {IV. C. 2.b.} or, “The “’ plural of deliberation’” (as in “’Let’s see now…’”) is apparently unattested in biblical writings, and cannot explain Genesis 3:22 (“’like one of us’”). {BLB Commentaries, IV. C. 2. d}. Brother Bowman’s statement, “and nontrinitarian interpretation cannot account for these occurrences,” {IV. C. 2.} is not true, as it is a nontrinitarian interpretation with the help of the Aramaic translation using the correctly translated word “Elohim” that does give comprehension to these verses. Brother Bowman uses complex sentence structures which sound impressive but these examples are vacuous “jibberistic” nonsense. Thomas Jefferson described Trinitarian religionists as using “unintelligible propositions.” On the contrary, Elohim, when properly understood as being “ Two Eloah Class” Beings, operating in echad (unity), fully clarifies verses like Genesis 3:22; 1:26; and 11:7. “And Elohim said, Let Us make man in Our image, after Our likeness…” {Genesis 1:26}. Footnote 6 – “Our image and Our likeness, “ speaks of the pluarality of the one YHWH. “And YHWH Elohim said, See, the man has become as one of Us…..” {Genesis 3:22}. Restoration Scriptures True Name Edition.
    Referring again to Revelations 3:12, even after Yahushua’s (Hebrew name of Jesus) resurrection and ascension, He refers to “My God,” consistently; 4 times. How do YOU reconcile your trinitarian view with this declaration, repeated 4 times, from Yahushua/Jesus Himself? You didn’t answer this last time. From these word’s spoken by our Savior, it is clear to me that there is The Father AND The Son, working in Unity (Echad) with One Another and not one being both, as the trinitarian doctrine presupposes. If Yahushua was “God, whole and entire,” as defined in the doctrine of the Trinity, this reference to “My God,” in the possessive, other then Self sense, would not occur.
    There is a difference between The Father/Abba indwelling The Son/Moshiach/Messiah , who will’s to operate in unity with the Father vs. the trinitarian view which holds that Yahushua IS The Father, expressing as the 2nd person of the Trinity.
    We read in John 14:20– “At that day ye shall know that I am in my Father, and ye in me, and I in you.” How do you reconcile that Yahushua/Jesus is “in” The Father if He, Yahushua/Jesus, as the trinitarian perspective views it, is The Father? When we are in Him, that does not make us Him nor when Yahushua is in us does that make Him us. Neither did you answer this in your reply to me.
    Yahushua said, “your will be done?” {Mat. 26:42}. If Yahushua was The Father, as the trinity pre supposes, there would only be one Will-we wouldn’t then see Yahushua needing to align His Will with His Father’s Will. Facts are facts. Again, we experience the expression of echad/unity, which denotes two operating in unity, AS One. In John 5:30, HalleluYah Scriptures, we read, “Of Myself I am able to do naught. As I hear, I judge, and My judgment is righteous, because I do not seek My own desire, but the desire of the Father who sent me.” One, Yahushua/Jesus, who is dependent upon the other, The Father, cannot be the other. One who seeks to subjugate His desire and His will to another cannot be the other. In the context of Yahushua speaking in John 5:30, He is speaking in terms of being one in echad/unity with His Father; He is not speaking of being The Father.
    I did look at Brother Bowman’s article and I did not find “irrefutable evidence in support of the Trinity.” I think it would be better if you would try to draw support for your views from Robert Bowman, Jr.’s article perhaps by quoting him rather than assuming that I study his article. His premises did not alter my view. I did agree with his one premise that “Jesus is not God the Father.” BLB Commentaries. VIII. D., though he contradicts himself and say’s, “Jesus Christ is God, ” in VI. A. 4., while strangely inserting an attempted qualifier, stating, “(due to Jesus becoming a man)”. More doctrinal overlay.

    In dialoguing, I will use the format of quoting you and then offering my reply, as I do in the following:

    Barbara’s statement: “If Jesus isn’t God, then we run into a whole lot of problems, including the facts that the Father erred when sending Him as the perfect sacrifice for our sins (Jn. 3:16).”

    Kenneth’s reply: Yahushua/Jesus, though not God The Father, is yet God’s Perfect Son, the only begotten, the only One Worthy to be sent. {Hebrews 5:9}. Your presumption is that Jesus is God the Father. Firstly, presumption is the lowest form of knowledge—therefore, it is erroneous to draw a conclusion from a presumption. You might read (again) Robert Bowman, Jr’s. article, “An Outline Study,’” in the BLB commentaries, where he state’s in VIII. (D). “Jesus is Not God The Father.” As said before, I am in agreement with Brother Bowman on this.

    Going beyond this dialoguing/verse referencing, etc., I want to share with you an experience I had some years back. On one ordinary day, at least ordinary up until this certain moment, I only know to describe this experience by saying that The Holy Spirit came upon me, softly piercing my consciousness with the revelation that Yahushua/Jesus died for us, taking upon Himself the sins of mankind. I was left with this absolute knowing, ingrained into the core of my being, the truth of the Atoning Sacrifice of our Savior. I will never, ever, forget that. The scriptures say it, but I KNEW IT. That knowing, that His Son was and is the Perfect Sacrifice, is part of the fabric of my being. The irony was that I wasn’t seriously on the Path then. Goes to show what Father will do to keep His children, to set and reset them on the Path of Eternality.

    Kenneth’s reply, con’t: Regarding Jn 3:16, Our Father so loved us that He sent His only begotten Son. The Father didn’t send Himself, He sent His Son Yahushua. “Come ye near unto me, hear ye this: I have not spoken in secret from the beginning; from the time that it was, there am I: and now the Lord GOD, and his spirit, hath sent me. {Isaiah 48:16 – KJV}. “Come near to Me, listen to this; I have not spoken in secret from the beginning; from the time that it was, I was there: and now the Master YHWH, and His Ruach, has sent Me.” {Isaiah 48:16 Restoration Scriptures True Name Edition}. Jesus is “in the Father,” as Elohim/Mighty One’s, or Eloheinu, Our Mighty Ones. “And this is life eternal, that they might know thee the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom thou hast sent. “ {Jn 17:3 KJV}. “This says YHWH the Melech (King) of Yisrael, and His Redeemer YHWH tzevaoth (hosts, armies); I am the first and I am the last; and beside Me there is no Elohim.” {Isaiah 44:6}. Footnote 11: “In Hebrew Ve goaloh YHWH tzevaot, and His Redeemer YHWH of Hosts, meaning the tool by which He Himself will save us, is also YHWH. This is another reference to the Savior, emanating from Father YHWH, without being the Father.” Footnote 12: “So that the definition of Elohim is Father YHWH + His Redeemer YHWH=YHWH-Echad. Leaving out either power leaves one with error rather than truth.” – Restoration Scriptures True Name Edition.

    The Father sent His Perfect Son and the Son completed perfectly the divine Work of The Atonement, the most precious gift of Love to humanity. Imagine a parent willingly sacrificing his child; he would Grieve…he would grieve…. One grieves for another that one loves. One being grieves for another being. If God were Jesus, as the trinity states, He wouldn’t be grieving for Himself. He is grieving for His Son. This is off the path a bit, Barbara, but yet relevant: You state in one of your post’s, “How can the Almighty suffer in any way?” on August 2, from “The Trinity, What Difference Does It Make?” The Father suffered when His Son was pierced: Zechariah 12:10. The Father suffered in being weary—Isaiah 7:13; Jer. 15:6. The Father is a jealous God, which connotes suffering when we do not act right—Ex. 20:5; 34:14; Deuteronomy 4:24; 5:9; Nahum 1:2. And He changes not. {Mal. 3:6.} And His Son suffered, (Read Luke 9:22; 17:25;22:15; 24:46, Acts 3:18; 26:23; and especially John 12:27.) which, in reading your writings, I know that you know. What is perplexing to me is that being that you know that Yahushua/Jesus suffered, and you believe that Yahushua/Jesus is God (The Almighty), why then, Barbara, would you ask , “How can the Almighty suffer in any way?”

    One day I was given a horrifying revelation. My spirit was taken to the Cross. I saw and felt and was immersed in the experience of Yahushua being crucified. I saw his bloodied body hanging on the stake, His skin having been whipped to bloody shreds, His face marred. Suffering. It was unthinkable that human’s could do that to another–Pharisees, Romans….. and us. Our Saviour took that for us, and The Father suffered, watching while His Son was being pierced. {Zechariah 12:10}. There are Two-Only One Ultimate Source as Supreme Being of all and His Redeemer Son. And the Trinity does disservice to our Father and His Son for not recognizing that: “To say that Jesus Christ is God the Son is idolatry.” To say: “Jesus Christ is the Son of God is Truth.”

    I have read Trinitarian’s say that the trinity can only be known through revelation. Yes, BUT, in my experiences of receiving revelation, the revelation has always been specifically, with no ambiguity, supported by The Word. As in the above example, the revelation is supported by scripture in Isaiah 52:14. I have had other revelations, again, all specifically supported by scripture. I have yet to see a scripture given by one who believes in the trinity give a verse that unambiguously validates the trinity—only verses that Trinitarian’s say infer “The Divine Mystery” that is the Trinity and verses that have been reputed by scholarly research as corrupt additions, as in 1 John 5:7 (notice the italics in some versions, i.e. KJV AMP); Matthew 28:19. For an explanation of the corruption/insertion of false text as seen in 1 John 5:7, refer to my blog posted on July 28, 2012, 9:04 AM in “The Trinity: What Difference Does It Make?” Regarding the corrupted verse of Matthew 28:19, which adds the trinitarian supported text: “in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost” which is widely used by trinitarians to support their belief, there is this research: “Go ye, and make disciples of all nations in my name”

    Matthew 28:19 as Quoted by Eusebius Pamphili (~260 – 340 A.D.)

    [Quotation found in his “Oration in praise of the Emperor Constantine,” Chapter XVI, (335 A.D.), in “The Church History of Eusebius”, Book III, Chapter V (324 A.D.). in his Demonstratio Evangelica Book III, Chapter 6 (318 A.D.), in his Theophania, etc. (contexts in Appendix 1).

    From earlier manuscripts, Eusebius Pamphilus quoted Matthew 28:19 in his writings without any trinitarian formula (to see other studies done by renown scholars).

    Genuine ancient manuscripts did read in Mt. 28:19 as follows (see the original consistency in the use of the first person as underlined):
    “Mt. 28:18: And Jesus came and spake unto them, saying, All power is given unto me in heaven and in earth.
    Mt. 28:19: Go ye, and make disciples of all nations in my name:
    Mt. 28:20: Teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you: and, lo, I am with you always, even unto the end of the world. Amen.”
    And not as we have it altered now in all the latter Bible versions:
    Mt. 28:19 Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them * in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost.
    That altered commandment, as we have it printed now, was never fulfilled by any of the Apostles, because it was not the original order given to them by Jesus Christ. We can easily see it, if we read by ourselves the book of Acts (and/or all books of the New Testament). This truth can only be seen by those who have “eyes to see and ears to ear”, not by those which have been already blinded (cauterized) by the traditions of men. The Word of God needs to be our own and our only norm of belief and practice, not doctrines or dogmas made by men, neither men’s religions or writings. If we compare the original and trustworthy Scriptures of the Bible as originally revealed by God, with church history and writings of men, we can see the abyss of difference, and then we can decide if we are going to believe in God’s Word or in men’s opinions..
    Notoriously, Brian Hoeck reports that more recently, at least two New Testament ancient texts have been found that make no mention of any trinitarian formula in Mt. 28:19:
    “Go forth into all the world and teach all the nations in my name in every place.” (Matthew 28:19 as cited in: E. Budge, Miscellaneous Coptic Texts, 1915, pp. 58 ff., 628 and 636).
    And:
    “Go and teach them to carry out all the things which I have commanded you forever.” (Matthew 28:19, Hebrew Gospel of Matthew, translated by George Howard from Shem Tob’s, Evan Bohan).

    Ethelbert W. Bullinger states: “…there is one great difficulty with regard to the [trinitarian] words [in Mt. 28:19, as we have them in our versions now]: …that, the Apostles themselves never obeyed this command; and in the rest of the New Testament there is no hint as to it ever having been obeyed by anyone. Baptism * was always in the name of the one person of the Lord Jesus [Master Yahushua The Messiah]. “It is difficult to suppose that there would have been this universal disregard of so clear a command, if it had ever been given; or [if] it ever really formed part of the primitive text. As to the Greek MSS, there are none beyond the fourth Century [Note: And of the fourth century, there are two: the Vaticanus and the Sinaiticus—BOTH CORRUPT. All other known Greek MSS are from 5th Century and upward], and it seems clear that the Syrian part of the Church knew nothing of these words. It looks… as though the words got into the text (perhaps from the margin) in the Church of North Africa [possibly Alexandria, Alexander’s and Athanasius’ headquarters, and that the Syrian Churches did not have them in theMSS at their disposal” (Word Studies on the HOLY SPIRIT, pp. 47-49).

    Fredrick C. Conybeare notes that, “it may be remarked that in the oldest Syriac MS the folio which contained the end of Matthew has disappeared” (Zeitschrift f. d. Neutest. Wiss. Jahrg. II, 1901, p. 275), and that “in the only codices which would be even likely to preserve an older reading [a non-triune reading of Matt 28:19], namely the Sinaitic Syriac and the oldest Latin Manuscript, the pages are gone which contained the end of Matthew”… “Eusebius cites this text of Matthew 28:19 again and again in works written between 300-336 AD, namely in his longCommentaries on the Psalms,Commentaries on Isaiah, hisDemonstratio Evangelica, hisTheophany, …in his famous History of the Church, and in his Panegyric of the Emperor Constantine. I have, after a moderate search in these works of Eusebius, found eighteen citations of Matthew 28:19, and always in the following form: “Go ye and make disciples of all nations in my name, teaching them to observe all things, whatsoever I commanded you”… I have collected all these passages in theZeitschrift fur die neutestamentliche Wissenschaft, edited by Dr. Erwin Preuschen in Darmstaft in 1901, except one, which is in a catena published by Mai in a German magazine”.

    To those who believe in the trinity, study for yourselves, prove it out, and if you come to see that there are verse(s) i.e. 1st John 5:7; Matthew 28:19; 1st Tim. 3:16*, that have been corrupted, which is a sin, as evidenced in Deuteronomy 12:32, do not use those verses to support your belief, and do question that doctrine, i.e. trinitarianism, that uses corrupted verses as a foundation for it’s existence.

    *The trinitarian influenced KJV uses the terminology, “…God was manifest in the flesh…” The Aramaic translation reads: “…this mystery of righteousness which was revealed in the flesh and righteous in the spirit…” Aramaic English New Testament.

    I write of the corruption of 1st John 5:7 in my blog on July 28, 2012. See, The Trinity: What Difference does It Make?

    From the scriptures, I see no support that “Jesus is God.” As Brother Bowman states, “Jesus is Not God The Father.” BLB Commentary, VIII. (D). I see Yahushua/Jesus as the agent of the Father who operates in unity with the Father but who is not The Father, and who acknowledges the Father as being greater then Himself. {John 14:28}. Please refer back to the 4th paragraph at the beginning of this letter.

    Barbara states: “Your concern is that you don’t believe that the verses that you have cited support the definition of Trinity that you used from Wikipedia, which is the correct definition.”

    Kenneth replies: No Barbara, that is not my concern. Rather, it is my view that the trinitarian paradyne is in contradiction to the verses that I cited.

    Barbara states: “…there is just no way, unless one either totally disproves or totally ignores each example given that it can biblically supported (grammar error Barbara’s) that there is not a Triune God, so my question is, were you able to prove each example false?

    Kenneth replies: Yes, now let’s continue to look at your examples:

    Barbara states: “If Jesus isn’t God, then we run into a whole lot of problems, including the facts that He wrongly accepted worship as God {John 9:38}.”

    Kenneth’s response: In the verse you quoted, Barbara, John 9:38, Yahushua, when speaking to the healed man, first identified Himself in John 9:35 as the “Son of God.” He did not refer to Himself as God. Also, “The Aramaic root sgd means ‘To prostrate oneself before’, and is the most submissive form of worship. (PY). In the Middle East it is also common for servants to prostrate and bow low before their Master, especially when a great kindness or debt is forgiven them. ” Footnote 98 to John 9:38. Aramaic English New Testament.

    Barbara states: If Jesus isn’t God……He forgave sins which is God’s pejorative [prerogative] alone {Lk 5:20}. (Kenneth state’s: the definition of “pejorative” is “ ‘Having or indicating a disparaging meaning; depreciative.’ ” The intended word would be prerogative.)

    Kenneth’s reply: Barbara, you state what the Pharisee’s said to Yahushua/Jesus: “….Who is this which speaketh blasphemies: who can forgive sins, but God alone?” {Luke 5:21} Yet look at what Yahushua answered: “But that ye may know that the Son of man hath power upon earth to forgive sins…..” {Luke 5:24.} If it is God’s prerogative alone, why do we see Yahushua The Son forgiving? {Luke 5:20}. If it is God’s prerogative alone, why did The Father give Yahushua the authority to execute judgment? {John 5:27}. If it is God’s prerogative alone, how do you explain Exodus 23:21: “Give heed to Him, listen to and obey His voice; be not rebellious before Him or provoke Him, for He will not pardon your transgression; for My Name is in Him.” (YWHW’s/Yahuweh’s Name is in His Son Yahushua).

    Barbara states: If Jesus isn’t God……He never denied the Pharisees statement about making Himself God (Jn. 10:33).

    Kenneth states: You have to read ahead a few verses. He did deny the Pharisees by responding to them in verse 36, “…I am the Son of God,” {John 10:36} and also where Yahushua say’s to them this truth, “the Father is in Me and I in Him.” {John 10:38}. It is the Father’s Spirit (“in me”) that was working through Yahushua/Jesus. If Jesus was God, He would refer to Himself as God. Yahushua/Jesus did not refer to Himself as God. Never ever. He referred to Himself as being sent into the world by His Father and to Himself as The Son of God. He is speaking this in the sense of operating in unity with His Father. The Hebrew word to describe this type of dynamic relationship is echad, unity. “I and HaAv (The Father) are echad (in unity).” {Yn (John) 10:30 OJB/Orthodox Jewish Bible}. The trinitarian view holds that God is Yahushua and Yahushua is God. “They are all equally God,” from Don Stewart’s FAQ’s, June 26, 2012 , “What is the Doctrine of the Trinity?” BLB. The verses from John 10, correctly translated and understood, show the plurality of Diety.

    Barbara states: “If Jesus isn’t God……[why] Thomas’ declaration that He is God. Jn. 20:28.

    Kenneth replies: This is not a verse that I consider reliable as a basis for establishing that Yahushua is God (The Father) as translated from the KJV. This confusion is the result of the King James translator’s using the term “God” in place of the correctly translated word, Eloah, or Elohim. The Restoration Scriptures True Name Edition reads, “And Thomas answered Him, My Master and My Eloah.” (Mighty One). Thomas is recognizing Yahushua/Jesus as the Messiah, the Mighty sent One from YHWH. The Aramaic interpretation reads, “My Master and My Elohim.” Aramaic English New Testament. Elohim (Mighty Ones) is an acknowledgment of The Father AND The Son. The Hebrew mindset of that day held a very strong expectation of the return of The Messiah, so it is more likely that Thomas was referring to Yahushua as The Messiah, Mighty Sent One as Savior of the people, recognizing Him as Elohim, One in Echad with the Father. In this sense, Thomas is honoring Yahushua as Master-Messiah who is also Elohim, One in unity with The Father. “I and the Father are One (echad-operating in unity).” {John 10:30}. Combine the facts that the Jews were strongly monotheistic, which would have the disciples, i.e. Thomas, not view Yahushua/Jesus as God Himself, but rather as their Messiah, the sent one, Yahushua/Jesus as Diety, in echad with the Father, as Elohim.

    Barbara, in your first response to me, you state, “One thing we must both bear in mind and that is that we both must base our interpretations and conclusions on the entire counsel of God (1 Tim. 3:16), not on isolated verses.” I agree. (Notwithstanding that 1 Tim. 3:16 is a corrupted verse). For greater credibility and with no ambiguity, in order to establish the status of Who Yahushua/Jesus is, let us look instead to the apostles Peter and John. Peter, who had the annointing of The Holy Spirit on him, and John, “whom Jesus loved,” are one’s to whom I would refer to in describing the true Stature of who Yahushua/Jesus is. Of the Stature and Divine Nature of Yahushua/Jesus, I am rather convicted to stand with Peter, WHILE Peter was under the Annointing of Father’s Holy Spirit!: “And Simon Peter answered and said Thou art the Christ, the Son of the living God.” {Matthew 16:16 KJV}“Shimon Keefa said, “You are the Mashiyach (Messiah), the Son of the Living Elohim.” {Matthew 16:16 Aramaic English New Testament}. And to stand with John, “whom Yahushua/Jesus loved.” {John 13:23; 20:2; 21:7; 21:20}. “And we believe and are sure that thou art that Christ, the Son of the living God.” {John 6:69}. “And we believe and know that you are the Mashiyach, the Son of the Living Elohim!” {John 6:69 – Aramiac English New Testament}. “And we believe and are sure that You are the Moshiach, the Son of the living YHWH. {John 6:69 – Restoration Scriptures True Name Edition}.

    I want to add, the value of this verse goes straight to and gives witness to the Ishmaelites and the Edomites who believe in Issa as the son of the virgin mother Mary/Mariam/Maryim and a Great Prophet of The Almighty, but who believe that He never physically died. And yet we have the account of Thomas who knew that Yahushua/Jesus was tortured and put to death by the Roman authority’s at the execution stake, absolutely believing that His Master and Messiah was dead, and needing physical, tangible, palpable proof that His Messiah “was raised from the dead.” {Gal. 1:1; Eph. 1:20; 1 Peter 1:21; Col. 2:12; Rom. 10:9}. And here is Thomas, with all of his doubts about whether Yahushua/Jesus could actually be alive, and Yahushua then physically appear’s to Thomas, telling Thomas to feel His wounds, proving that He was crucified, tortured and resurrected from the dead.

    Barbara states: “If Jesus isn’t God……He couldn’t have been eternal (Rom 1:20).

    Kenneth replies: Micah 5:2 tells us otherwise: “But thou, Bethlehem Ephratah, though thou be little among the thousands of Judah, yet out of thee shall he [Yahushua/The Messiah] come forth unto me that is to be ruler in Israel; whose [Yahushua/The Messiah] goings forth have been from of old, from everlasting.” {KJV}. Micah 5:4 clearly identifies Yahushua/Jesus as the everlasting one who is being spoken of in verse 2. 5:4. “And he [Yahushua/Jesus] shall stand and feed in the strength of the LORD/YHWH/FATHER, in the majesty of the name of the Lord his [Yahushua’s/Jesus’] God; and they shall abide: for now shall he be great unto the ends of the earth.” {KJV}.” Now, from the Orthodox Jewish Bible, we read Micah 5:2. “But thou, Beit-lechem Ephratah, though thou be little among the Alphei Yehudah (Thousands of Yehudah), yet out of thee shall He [Moshiach] [Messiah] come forth unto Me [Hashem] [meaning literally, The NAME, which is a reference to FATHER YHWH] that is to be Moshel Yisroel; whose goings forth (i.e. origins) have been mikedem, (from everlasting), mimei olam (from the days of eternity).” {Orthodox Jewish Bible/OJB}. “And He shall stand and feed Yisrael in the strength of YHWH, in the majesty of the Name of YHWH His Elohim.” {Micah 5:4 {Restoration Scriptures True Name Edition}. Footnote 8 reads: “Yahushua’s strength and authority came from the Greater YHWH, His Father, as well as His usage of the Name of YHWH.” “And He shall stand and shepherd in the strength of YWHW, in the excellency of the Name of YHWH His Elohim.” {Micah 5:4 – Halleluyah Scriptures}.

    Another substantiation of the eternal nature of Yahushua/Jesus can be understood by looking at the Aramaic translation of Romans 1:20, wherein we read: “For, from the foundations of the world, the hidden things of Elohim are seen by the mind in the things he created even his eternal power and divinity, so that they might be without excuse.” {Romans 1:20}. Aramaic English New Testament. The reference is to Elohim, Mighty Ones (YHWH AND Yahushua), both of whom are eternal. Also, when I read Acts 7:55; Ephesians 1:20; Col. 3:1; Heb 1:3; Luke 22:69; Mark 16:19: Rev. 3:21. I do get the sense that Yahushua/Jesus IS eternal. From these verses cited, how does a trinitarian perceive the phenomenon of Yahushua sitting with His Father “in His throne,” “at his own right hand,” if there is just One being? I’d very much like to hear a trinitarian perspective in response to this question. (An answer related to their being “three” persons from One Being would merit an “F,” as in flunk, as John 8:42 negates this premise). Yahushua/Jesus said to them, “If Elohim were your Father, you would love Me, for I came forth from Elohim, and am here. For I have not come of Myself, but He sent Me.” {John 8:42 Halleluyah Scriptures}.

    Barbara states: “If Jesus isn’t God……He doesn’t [then] contain the fullness of the Godhead bodily.” (Col. 2:9).

    Kenneth replies: Col. 2:10 say’s that we have also been made complete in Him. That action of being made complete in Him doesn’t make us Him, nor does that action of the fullness of El-Elyon dwelling in Yahushua/Jesus bodily make Yahushua/Jesus El Elyon (the Most High). …”for my Father is greater than I.” {John 14:28 KJV}. “My Father, which gave them me, is greater than all: {John 10:29 KJV}.

    And there is more scripture testifying that Father gave to Yahushua/Jesus His glory. “I will that they also, whom thou hast given me, be with me where I am; that they may behold my glory, which thou hast given me: for thou lovedst me before the foundation of the world.” {John 17:24 – KJV}.

    To address a related issue, the term “Godhead” is not in the original manuscripts, thanks to corruption in translations. The term “Godhead bodily” is not in these other 4 translations given that have been translated from the original manuscripts. For the sake of clarity, let’s start by referencing the KJV first and then comparing the KJV to other versions: “For in him dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead bodily.” “And ye are complete in him, which is the head of all principality and power.” {Colossians 2:9,10 KJV}. Now in contrast to the KJV, let’s look at 4 other versions: Col. 9. “Because in Him dwells all the completeness of the Almighty bodily, Col. 10. and you have been made complete in Him, who is the Head of all principality and authority.” {Halleluyah Scriptures}. Col. 9. “In whom dwells all the fullness of Elohim bodily.” Col. 10.. “And in him you are also complete because he is the head of all principality’s and authority’s.” {Aramaic English New Testament}. Col. 9. “For in him dwells the fullness of El-Elyon [The Most High] in bodily form.” Col. 10. “And you are complete in Him, who is the Head of all principality and power.” {Restoration Scriptures True Name Edition}. Col. 9. “Because in Moshiach kol melo Elohim (all the plentitude of G-d) finds its bodily maon laShechinah (dwelling place for the Shechinah/The Divine Presence of YHWH/Yahuweh. Col. 10. And you have been granted melo (plentitude) in Moshiach, who is the Rosh (Head) of all rule and authority. {Orthodox Jewish Bible/OJB}. We see from the aforementioned correctly translated verses that Yahushua/Jesus has the delegated power and authority (Fullness) in Him from The Father.

    That fullness proceeds from the Higher Hierarchical Order from Father to the Son. Yahushua/Jesus received Authority and Power from the Father–notice that Yahushua/Jesus always perfectly communed/prayed to and deferred to the Father. “…let your will be done.” {Matthew 26:42}. One who derives/receives Power and Authority from another cannot be of the stature or magnitude of that other. We have to use logic too when studying scripture.

    The Holy Spirit/Ruach ha Kodesh proceeds forth from Yahuweh. Just as when we receive our authority and power to heal the sick from Yahushua/Jesus, we are not Yahushua/Jesus. The Ruach ha Kodesh Ruach=Breath, ha=the, Kodesh=Holy, the Holy Breath of Yahuweh, or Holy Spirit is another Name for Father Yahuweh, who’s Power He gave to The Son.

    Barbara sates: “If Jesus isn’t God……[then] He blasphemed God by claiming the titles of Alpha and Omega, Lord, and Almighty (Rev. 1:8) for Himself.

    Kenneth replies: Barbara, we need a deeper understanding of this verse that just is not revealed unless we study the root meaning of the words. I will defer to Andrew Gabriel Roth’s Aramaic English New Testament footnote #3 reference to this verse: “Alap-Taw holds a universe of meaning; each Hebrew/Aramaic letter holds many specific values. Aleph speaks of the absolute Unity of YHWH; Taw is the Perfection of YHWH; this is remez (hint) of the Urim and Thummin. This also reveals “YHWH is Salvation” as the First, Last Beginning and the End. The Ten Commandments begin with the letter Aleph, “Anochi (I) am YHWH your Elohim who has brought you out of the land of Egypt…” (Exodus 20:2) . The Father YHWH is Ain Sof (without end He is infinite; therefore, “the Arm of YHWH (Mashiyach [Messiah] spoke and appeared to Moshe [Moses] . Taw reveals the Perfection of Mashiyach; Taw is the first letter of Tefilin (prayers), Torah and Teshuva (turning to YHWH [ The Father] which speaks of the transformation of the natural man into a Tzadiq, [righteous] spiritual man. Alap-Taw speaks of Alap/Head (Keter) and Taw/Feet (Malchut) of the sefirot and both the government of Mashiyach [Messiah] and the harmony of all things; and there are countless other Hebraic connections. These words and letters are important to reveal the nature of Mashiyach, which is why such a sober warning is given in Revelation 22:18-19. It’s sad to note that James Murdock simply translated “Alap-Taw” into the Greek “alpha and the omega” rather than restore the original; however, Murdock had a propensity to Grecianize the Aramaic NT. Much more revelation of the Kingdom is available to Bible students who consider the original language, and the application of the four basic levels of interpretation; peshat (simple), remez (hint), drash (allegory) and sod (hidden) as they study. The Greek translators either did not realize the prophetic significance of each word and letter, or perhaps the revelation was far too controversial in the religio-political system of their day. Alap-Taw speaks of Emet (Truth) which is the basis of the true Emunah (Faith) “which was once delivered to the set-apart believers.” These and more discussions are detailed in two publications by Andrew Gabriel Roth; Ruach Qadim, and Path to Life.”

    Barbara states: ”Either there is more than one God, a direct contradiction to many verses, including Deuteronomy 6:4, or else there is a real possibility that there is at least the hint of a Triune God. You brought up the Hebrew word “echad,” and it is this exact word that is used in Deuteronomy 6:4, denoting unity, not numerical oneness, so this is something else to consider. In fact, in one article I read, numerical oneness is never used in reference to God. I understand that you have concerns that need to be addressed, but based upon these truths, which cannot contradict your verses by the way, which of these possibilities can you honestly say is the most biblically reasonable?”

    Kenneth replies: I would have to answer NOT APPLICABLE to your “either” “or” scenario, as it presents a stereotypical box where the truth does not reside. Let’s look for truth outside of tradition’s unholy box. Let’s consider this unity vs. numerical oneness. The trinitarian view holds that there is only One that expresses in Three, and a person would be inclined to accept this conception of Diety as a numerical One should they limit their self to a translation such as provided in the KJV, which reads, “Hear , O Israel: the LORD our God is one Lord:” {Deuteronomy 6:4 KJV}. Let’s look at translation’s that render the original Hebrew intent: “Shema (Listen) Yisrael: YHWH is our Elohim (Mighty Ones), YHWH is Echad (In Unity).” – Restoration Scriptures True Name Edition {Devarim 6:4} (Deuteronomy 6:4) or, “4|Shema Yisroel Adonoi Eloheinu Adonoi Echad.” – {Orthodox Jewish Bible/OJB. Devarim 6:4}. Adon means Master, Adonoi is the possessive plural form, meaning our Masters. Eloheinu means Our Mighty Ones, and is the possessive plural form of the singular form Eloah, meaning Mighty One/God. From these Hebrews translations, we see that there is One that comprises Two: Elohim (Mighty Ones), a collective noun, a relationship, which connotes a numerical two, those Two being The Father and The Son. It is not in the Trinitarian sense that holds that the Father is the Son/The Son is The Father.

    Barbara states: “Then answered Jesus and said unto them Verily, verily, I say unto you, The Son can do nothing of himself, but what he seeth the Father do; for what things soever he doeth, these also doeth the Son likewise. For the Father loveth the Son, and sheweth him all things that himself doeth; and he will shew him greater works than these, that ye may marvel.” [John 5:20 KJV ]. It’s the phrase “The son can do nothing of himself” that is of importance. It’s not that the Son cannot literally do anything of himself; He’s the Sovereign Creator for heaven’s sake, meaning He can do EVERYTHING by himself, even raise Himself from the dead (Jn. 10:18) although He even submits this to the Father.

    Kenneth replies: It is troublesome that you dismiss a verse because it does not fit your belief system. The verse clearly say’s that ‘the Son can do nothing of himself,’ and you toss it out, declaring that it doesn’t mean what it say’s. This is an audacious presumption, seeking to alter scripture, insinuating that our Messiah should word things differently or that He doesn’t mean what He say’s. This verse blows to bits the trinitarian view, because if, “they are all equally God,” then the son could do everything of himself, but this would inconvenience some of those who adhere to the trinitarian view and who would rather rebut scripture. We see in scripture that the Father will show The Son greater works {John 5:20}. How does the trinitarian view reconcile this verse with their “equally God” stance, for if The Father and The Son were equally God, The Father would have no need to show the greater works to The Son.

    Barbara states: “I believe that the verses and explanations that you have given regarding the unity between the Father and the Son can also be explained through the explanations I have given.

    Kenneth replies: As seen, no, they cannot.

    Barbara states: “In other words, your concerns that you don’t believe that the verses that you have cited support the definition of the Trinity is because your explanations are coming from a modalistic viewpoint. I hope that I have clarified them enough for you to study other verses within the proper framework. If I haven’t answered your questions clearly enough, let me know.”

    Kenneth states: Barbara, your answers obfuscate. Also, it is rather that I do not see the Trinity as being supported by scriptural verse(s). And it is curious to me that you contrive that my “explanations are coming from a modalistic viewpoint. I am not a Modalist, which is a close cousin of Trinitarianism. The Modalist views “one God successively appearing as three different modes.” “Modalism, as a general system, teaches that God is one person which reveals Himself at different times as different manifestations…” (I provided a blog on July 28th, 9:04 AM, which defines “Modalism.)”

    Rather, I believe that there is One Supreme Being AND His Creator, Savior Son, Yahushua ha Moshiach, who, eternally under The Father’s Supreme Authority, performs and fulfills the Will of The Father, as He did when He came and completed perfectly the Work of the Atonement. They are Two “Eloah1 Class” Beings, not One expressing as three persons.2 If there was just One being, Yahushua/Jesus couldn’t have come “of myself.” “Jesus said unto them, If God were your Father, ye would love me: for I proceeded forth and came from God; neither came I of myself, but he sent me.” {John 8:42}. 1 Singular form meaning Mighty One. (The plural ELOHIM = MIGHTY ONES). 2 “ ‘ God exists as three “ ‘ persons ‘ ” as long as these persons are not separate beings,” from Commentaries, Robert Bowman, Jr. Paragraph IV. C. 1.

    “Now a mediator is not a mediator of one, but God is one.” {Gal. 3:20 – KJV}. In the KJV Amplified Version, it states, “Now a go-between (intermediary) has to do with and implies more than one party [there can be no mediator with just one person]. Yet God is [only] one Person [and He was the sole party in giving that promise to Abraham….” {Gal. 3:20 KJV Amplified}. The brackets [ ] in the foregoing Amplified verse are the Amplified’s, not mine. Brother Bowman states, “Gal 3:20 speaks of God as one party in the covenant between God and man, not as one person.” BLB Commentaries, IV. B. 2. The KJV Amplified speaks of God as one Person and Brother Bowman speaks of God as three persons. The trinitarian view can trip over itself even with the “help” of fellow Trinitarians. I ask a rhetorical question, “Which is it, one person or three persons?” An Aramaic translation clarifies the “one”as being Elohim–Father and Son, Two Beings, not one being as two persons. “Now a Mediator does not represent one party, but Elohim is one.” {Aramaic English New Testament}. Another rendering is taken from the Restoration Scriptures, “Now a Mediator does not represent one party, but YHWH/Yahuweh is Echad,” meaning Two Beings relating in unity, one with the other.

    Thomas Jefferson, 3rd President of the United States, answer’s the question well: “ It is too late in the day for men of sincerity to pretend they believe in the Platonic mysticisms that three are one, and one is three: and yet that the one is not three, and the three are not one…But this constitutes the craft, the power and the profit of the priests. Sweep away their gossamer fabrics of factitious religion, and they would catch no more flies. We should all then, like the Quakers, live without an order of priests, moralize for ourselves, follow the oracle of conscience, and say nothing about what no man can understand, nor therefore believe.” “The priests have so disfigured the simple religion of Jesus that no one who reads the sophistications they have engrafted on it, from the jargon of Plato, of Aristotle and other mystics, would conceive these could have been fathered on the sublime preacher of the Sermon on the Mount. Yet, knowing the importance of names, they have assumed that of Christians, while they are mere Platonists, or anything rather than disciples of Jesus.”

    “Jesus answered and said unto him, If a man love me, he will keep my words: and my Father will love him, and we will come unto him, and make our abode with him.” John 14:23.

    I do appreciate the opportunity of dialoguing.

    Your Brother In Christ,

    Kenneth Jelladian

    • Barbara LeFevre

      Kenneth~

      Thank you for your response. You have written a great deal, so I’m sure it is going to take me the better part of the week to get something written and posted.

      Yours in Christ~
      Barbara

      • Barbara LeFevre

        I have one other question. I don’t know if you have mentioned it before, but would you mind telling me what denomination you attend? Understanding someone’s perspective helps me when I am developing my answers.

        Thanks!

        • http://www.capitaldynamicsre.com Kenneth Jelladian

          Barbara, I would prefer not. I seek to let The Word mold me, not a denomination. I write as an individual, not as one representing or being defined by a denomination. We wouldn’t want to set forth a denominational filter with which I may be stereotyped. I study and strive to abide by the Word, I commune with Elohim, and the fruits of that study and relationship are as represented in the words that I write, at least to the best that I am able.

          • Barbara LeFevre

            Okay. I appreciate your responding and do understand your comments.

  • Barbara LeFevre

    Kenneth~

    You have brought up a great many issues, and I want to give you the best possible answers that I can. I always ask the Lord’s guidance and wisdom when preparing answers, but there are a couple things that I have not received an answer to, so I won’t be able to post it presently as I had planned. I can’t give an exact date, so please keep checking back every day or so. Thanks.

    Yours in Christ~
    Barbara

  • Barbara LeFevre

    Kenneth~

    Hi. I assume you’re checking back, so I just want to keep you abreast of things. I’m almost done, but there are things that I will be doing for the next couple days, so I’m guessing that I will have it posted by Tuesday or Wednesday. Thanks.

    Barbara

  • http://www.capitaldynamicsre.com Kenneth Jelladian

    Barbara, I check back occasionally. It is unfortunate that BLB has relegated this Trinity blog to obscurity in it’s placement. One has to go to Search mode to find it, which will keep it obscure from thousands of seekers. I can’t even find my first July 2 blog regarding the Trinity. There was so much truth spoken in many of the various writers’ discussions and it was the topic that stirred the most response and probably caused most readers to search out scripture. I hope BLB didn’t do this because so much was spoken adverse to the trinity, a position I deduce they adhere to. I hope that BLB reconsiders and returns this topic to front placement.

    • Barbara LeFevre

      Kenneth~

      I don’t know what you mean by “Search mode” or “front placement,” so I can’t be any help on those. As far as I know, everything can just be found according to the dates posted. I do know that BLB doesn’t move or remove people’s opinions just because it disagrees with them, and you are correct; BLB does support the doctrine of the Trinity. I don’t know where the specific post is to which you are referring, but you did write one to me on July 11. I hope this helps some.

      Barbara

  • Barbara LeFevre

    Kenneth~

    Well, Saturday is looking pretty good! :) I would really like it if I had the time to devote to doing nothing but writing for days on end, but like everyone else, I have other things to do in my life. Anyway, you wrote so much, and I can’t address each and every point/verse/source individually, so I have really tried to combine topics and such so that your concerns get answered thoroughly. It has taken some time just to figure out what to write and where to write it because you bring up most of your points several times. I know you are trying to be thorough, but on this end, it is kind of overwhelming. I’m sure you understand. I just want to let you know what’s going on.

    Barbara

  • Barbara LeFevre

    Kenneth,

    I appreciate your responding. Before I begin, I do have a few general comments to make on some of your specific comments and your response in general:

    (K) You provide your own verses, in an attempt to support your own views, which I seek to address in this letter, but you do not and/or do not adequately address my assertions.

    (B) If I don’t “adequately address [your] assertions,” I will attempt to do better; however, to criticize me for using “[my] own verses, in an attempt to support [my] own views” seems an odd thing to say. What else would I use to support my views, and more to the point, aren’t you doing the same thing? In addition, you wrote, “Why not take Yahushua/Jesus at His Word, rather than reading into The Word in order to justify your dogma, instead of letting The Word speak for itself?” If it is true, as you wrote at the conclusion of your post that you “appreciate the opportunity of dialoguing,” then may I suggest that we do that and forgo the criticisms and insults, which carry no intellectual or argumentative weight, and focus on the issue at hand, that of determining whether God’s Word really does or does not support the Trinity? I do want to let the Word speak for itself as you do; we just disagree on what it is saying. I will come in agreement with you that we both allow the Word to speak for itself, that we will reconcile Scripture to reveal God’s truth.

    (K) Let’s first define the Trinitarian model…, “there is only one God in three persons and that each person is God, whole and entire.” Wikipedia. Robert Bowman, Jr. defines the Trinity further,…as “God exists as three “ ‘ persons ‘ ” as long as these persons are not separate beings. ” Don Stewart states that, “they are all Equally God,” in his BLB post June 26, 2012 in “The Definition of the Trinity.”


    (B) Because I had, in my original response, said that the Wikipedia definition agrees with the view of the Trinity, and because I had specifically written that Trinitarians do not believe, as do those who hold to modalism, that Jesus IS the Father, why have you, again, brought up this distorted view throughout your response as you have in the following example: “… The Son/Moshiach/Messiah , who will’s to operate in unity with the Father vs. the trinitarian view which holds that YAHUSHUA IS THE FATHER [bold mine], expressing as the 2nd person of the Trinity”? Obviously, when you repeat a concern that I have already clarified, it makes me wonder if you even read what I wrote. Moreover, being attentive to what I have actually written will prevent you from falsely making comments such as “…presumption is the lowest form of knowledge—therefore, it is erroneous to draw a conclusion from a presumption.”

    (K) This is off the path a bit, Barbara, but yet relevant: You state in one of your post’s, “How can the Almighty suffer in any way?” on August 2, from “The Trinity, What Difference Does It Make.”

    (B) I didn’t ask that question; Andybob did. If you go back to the post, you will see that this sentence is part of a larger paragraph of his that I enclosed with quotation marks.

    (B)) A great deal of your proof originates from two sources, the “Restoration Scriptures True Names Edition” and Aramaic versions. As to the first, I won’t be addressing any of the reasoning that you have put forth from this source because I know that God was able to preserve His Word and that He didn’t need to “restore” anything no matter how “spiritual” it may sound. After being delivered from 40+ years of Mormonism, I realized that God is not the inept bumbler that this and other churches made Him out to be, that He was and is perfectly capable of transmitting AND preserving His Word just how He wanted and that He doesn’t need anyone or any group from the nineteenth, twentieth, and twenty-first centuries going back and correcting all the supposed lies, mistranslations, and other errors that His creation added or removed while He was, apparently, not paying attention. What you are asking me to believe is that God stood by while millions upon millions of people were unaware that the Bible they were reading and putting their faith in for their eternal destinies directly contradicted II Timothy 3:16. Sorry. That’s just too fantastic. As to the latter, all of the manuscripts that were used in compiling the NT were in Greek, not Aramaic, so I think we should stay with the translations from the Greek. A wonderful website that offers some great insight into this and other issues is “Joyfully Growing in Grace.” Although there is an ‘Articles’ link, if you just Google “Hebrew Roots Movement-Messin’ With the Word,” you will find an article that deals directly with some of the publications that have taken liberties with the Word. While it would be well worth your time to read the article, here is a short excerpt that sums it up: “It would be reasonable to conclude that if it were God’s intent that His Word was to be correctly communicated to the world in Hebrew, that the gathering at Pentecost would have been an ideal time and place to make that clear. Instead, God made provision, by His Holy Spirit, for every person, from every nation, to hear the Gospel in their own tongue. Interesting on even a deeper level, because Acts 2 says that “God fearing Jews from every nation under heaven had come to Jerusalem”. If there was ever a crowd gathered that probably knew Hebrew, it was this bunch! When the New Testament says “God fearing Jews” it means the ultra-faithful to Judaism, and they would KNOW their Hebrew. Yet God made sure that the Gospel was available IN THEIR OWN LANGUAGES!”

    (K) You state, “He [Yahushua/Jesus] is not speaking from His eternal “equal” position in the Trinity but from an earthy position of submission to God as a man, just exactly what we are expected to do.” What is the scriptural basis for your assertion…. Did it occur to you that Christ had to have been in submission to The Father also when He was sent from Heaven; He was then not acting from “an earthly position.” No man-made disqualifiers to justify one’s dogma (Trinitarianism) need be added to scripture–there are no assertions that state that Yahushua’s non-equal status was caused by His Descension. With no qualifiers, the truth of the Messiah’s status is clearly explained in scripture: “For I came down from heaven, not to do mine own will, but the will of him that sent me.”

    The scriptural basis that the Father is greater is stated as an absolute, which makes it clear and evident of the Father’s greater stature than the Son, contrary to the Trinitarian, anti-scriptural, man-made false dogma claiming co-equality. …Please, no answer that uses the man-made, absurd, trite, scripturally defying fabrication akin to Christ was in submission to God while on the earth, therefore, only during that earthly time He was not equal. There is an essential heirarchy. That heirarchy applies “in earth as it is in Heaven.” …If the Son was of co-equal status with the Father, “wholly God,” He would know all things. Mark 13:32 gives us a hint otherwise. “But of that day and that hour knoweth no man, no, not the angels which are in heaven, neither the Son, but the Father.”
His lesser status than the Father is evidenced from His own words: “My Father, which gave them me, is greater than all…” which would include Himself, Yahushua/Jesus. {John 10:29}; …Yahushua/Jesus states that the servant is not greater than his lord and he that is sent is not greater than he that sent him. {John 13:16}.

    B) You brought up a great many points in this very long paragraph. I tried to cut in down for this response, but in doing so, I inadvertently left out some of the ellipses, so please pardon that.

    ~Because I know that God’s Word does, indeed, teach that Jesus is God along with the Father and the Holy Spirit, for which I offer scriptural evidence later, I really hadn’t thought out the idea that you put forth, that when He was sent by the Father that He was acting in submission while still in heaven, so I do appreciate your bringing that to my attention. Because all Scripture must be reconciled, I needed to understand how Christ, who is wholly God and equal to the Father, would be in submission to Him, so I took it to the Lord in prayer. As we know from the verse you cited, I Corinthians 11:3, “…that the head of every man is Christ; and the head of the woman [is] the man; and the head of Christ [is] God.” Clearly, there is, as you pointed out, an “essential hierarchy,” denoting submission, but does this translate into inequality between the Father and the Son, as you believe? The fact is that submission doesn’t mean that two entities are not of the same equal essence as we know from the husband and wife relationship in the above Scripture. Although there is a difference in respective roles, which places the husband over the wife, what they are, essentially, doesn’t change; they are still both human beings. We also both know from our experiences that we take on different roles, sometimes as the boss and sometimes as the subordinate, but that doesn’t define who we are. We’re not more or less human because of the role in which we find ourselves, and the same is true with the Father and the Son. Although Christ, even in heaven, was in submission to the Father, that is His role, but it doesn’t define who He is, His nature or essence. You answered this yourself when you wrote, “Does a being’s earthly existence and position negate that being’s essential beingness? I think not.” In like manner, God’s existence and position don’t negate who He is essentially, either. I think that this explains how Christ can be wholly God and still function in a submissive role to the Father.

    ~I will admit that I don’t fully understand Mark 13:32. I do understand how God could come to Earth, and by virtue of taking on flesh (Jn. 1:14), be restricted and no longer be omnipresent. I also understand how God could voluntarily limit or deny His power, therefore no longer being omnipotent. I do not understand, however, how God can choose not to know something but because there is sufficient proof that Christ is, indeed, God, I just have to understand that it had something to do with His coming in the likeness of man (Phil. 2:7) although He is no longer operating under that restriction: “Who being the brightness of [his] glory, and the express image of his person, and upholding all things by the word of his power, when he had by himself purged our sins, sat down on the right hand of the Majesty on high” (Heb. 1:3). This snag in my understanding, however, doesn’t put to rest the truth of Jesus’ deity. The beauty of God’s Word is that He never expected us to derive truth from one or two or even more sources. He filled His written Word with numerous proofs on every doctrine so that, if one is vague, there are others in which we can bring the truth into focus.

    ~ As to another comment you made, biblically, “sitting at the right hand” does not denote submission, at least as far as you interpret it, that Christ is not God. In Hebrews 1:3b we read, “when he had by himself purged our sins, sat down on the right hand of the Majesty on high.” The phrase “right hand” (dexios, Strong’s G1188) is a metaphor, and it means “a place of honor or authority” (Strong’s) or “power [or] authority” (Vine’s).

    (K) Your response sounds too much, to me, like a mental accommodation to side-step scripture in a need to maintain foundational support of the “sacred cow” that is the Trinity. Does a being’s earthly existence and position negate that being’s essential beingness? I think not.

    (B) The rest of your comments in this paragraph again illustrate that you either don’t understand the Trinity or that you didn’t read what I wrote, so I won’t comment on them except to say that, yes, it is very clear that “The Father AND The Son [are] working in Unity (Echad) with One Another” because they really are not “one being both” as you have consistently misunderstood the Trinity. After reading your response so very many times, I can’t help but think how much time you wasted writing about a non-issue.

    (K) He refers to “My God,” consistently; 4 times. How do YOU reconcile your trinitarian view with this declaration, repeated 4 times, from Yahushua/Jesus Himself? You didn’t answer this last time. From these word’s spoken by our Savior, it is clear to me that there is The Father AND The Son, working in Unity (Echad) with One Another and not one being both, as the trinitarian doctrine presupposes.

    (B) Yes, it is very clear that the Father and the Son are two separate beings, which is the Trinitarian view.

    K) I did agree with his [Bowman’s] one premise that “Jesus is not God the Father.” BLB Commentaries. VIII. D., though he contradicts himself and say’s, “Jesus Christ is God,

    (B) You may not believe that “Jesus Christ is God,” but Bowman can’t “contradict himself” as you assert if what he is defining is within a Trinitarian model, and it is.

    (K) Your presumption is that Jesus is God the Father. Firstly, presumption is the lowest form of knowledge—therefore, it is erroneous to draw a conclusion from a presumption. You might read (again) Robert Bowman, Jr’s. article, “An Outline Study,’” in the BLB commentaries, where he state’s in VIII. (D). “Jesus is Not God The Father. …Regarding Jn 3:16, Our Father so loved us that He sent His only begotten Son. The Father didn’t send Himself, He sent His Son Yahushua.”

    (B) Well, obviously, if I don’t believe that Jesus is the Father, I can’t really be guilty of “presumption,” so you are wrong on that. Just what was your goal in entering this dialogue? As I see it, it wasn’t to find the truth or even to honestly address points and verses about the Trinity or the deity of Christ because, after going through it for weeks, your entire response is pretty much nothing more than a straw-man argument, disproving the non-issue that Jesus isn’t the Father in the Trinity. Why didn’t you read what I wrote?

    (K) “To say that Jesus Christ is God the Son is idolatry.” To say: “Jesus Christ is the Son of God is Truth.”

    (B) It is my prayer that after you study what I have written and revisit Bowman’s article without being encumbered by the false belief that Jesus is God the Father, an idea that would very much and negatively color your conclusions, that you will see the truth of God’s Word outside the “doctrines or dogmas made by men, … men’s religions or writings.”

    (K) I have read Trinitarian’s say that the trinity can only be known through revelation.

    (B) I have read that exact statement from Oneness believers on this blog several times. If what you mean by “revelation” is the revealed Word of God, then, yes, it is through revelation because we believe that the doctrine of the Trinity has been fully revealed throughout Scripture; therefore, believers can know it (Jn. 16:13). If, however, you mean something akin to a dream or vision, please provide the exact quote and source because not one person who has made this claim has actually done so. If, though, you are referencing point 2 of the article found in the “International Standard Bible Encyclopedia” that both Dale and Andybob have done to disprove the Trinity, please read the entire article because it very much supports it.

    (K) Regarding the corrupted verse of Matthew 28:19, which adds the trinitarian supported text: “in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost” which is widely used by trinitarians to support their belief, there is this research: “Go ye, and make disciples of all nations in my name” Matthew as Quoted by Eusebius Pamphili (~260 – 340 A.D.) From earlier manuscripts, Eusebius Pamphilus quoted Matthew 28:19 in his writings without any trinitarian formula (to see other studies done by renown scholars).

    (B) I found this explanation to explain Eusebius’s use the Triadic formula. This was posted in several short increments, so in order to avoid any confusion between these writers and myself I will divide it with a series of short lines (—).

    ———————
    Peter Head quoted from his book, (thanks Peter).

    http://groups.yahoo.com/group/textualcriticism/message/1565 – Peter Head
    The omission of the phrase can be explained as due to Eusebius’ tendency to abbreviate, as Eusebius elsewhere often cites the longer form [Contra Marcellum I.1.9; I.1.36; Theologia III. 5.22; EpCaesarea 3 (Socrates, Eccl.Hist 1.8); Psalms 117.1-4; Theophania 4.8].

    I gather this is six such cases, instead of the commonly-stated-on-the-web four.
    Two of them I found on the web.

    ~http://www.ccel.org/ccel/schaff/npnf204.ix.ii.html
    Letter of Eusebius of Cæsarea to the people of his Diocese – 323 AD

    “our Lord, sending forth His disciples for the preaching, said, “Go teach all nations, baptizing them in the Name of the Father and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost”.

    ~http://www.tertullian.org/fathers/eusebius_theophania_05book4.htm
    Theophania – Book 4

    After his resurrection from the dead, all of them,– being together as they had been commanded,–went to Galilee, as He had said to them. But, when they saw Him, some worshipped Him, but others doubted. But He drew near to them, spoke with them, and said: “All power (both) in heaven and earth, is given to me of my Father. Go ye and make Disciples of all nations, and baptize them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost. And teach them to observe all that I have commanded you. And, behold! I am with you always even to the end of the world.”
    ———————————-

    I also copied the following excerpt contributed by “TheLayman” from a dialogue on the “Christian Discussion Forum”:

    And what of others. Well the Didache and Justin Martyr certainly allude to the passage directing baptism in the name of the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit (indeed this is the “Lord’s baptism” in these writings). But what of others who lived well before Eusebius? Did they actually quote the passage? Well, yes they did, and here is a quick sampling:

    “Go and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Spirit.” By this He showed that whoever omits any of these three, fails in glorifying God perfectly. (Hippolytus, c. 205)

    For the law of Baptism was enjoined and its ritual prescribed. “Go,” he says, “teach the nations, baptizing them in the name of Father and Son and Holy Spirit.” (Tertullian, c. 200)

    He commands them to baptize into the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit—not into a unipersonal God. (Tertullian, c. 213)

    “Go therefore and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and the Son, and the Holy Spirit.” He suggests the Trinity, in whose sacrament the nations were to be baptized. (Cyprian, c 250)

    I thought those would be a nice sampling of quotes since Eusebius wasn’t even born until 260 A.D. I hope my point is obvious. Not only did Eusebius quote Matthew 28:19 correctly and as it appears in your Bible, but Ante-Nicene Fathers were quoting it so long before he was even born that Eusebius probably only got to read copies of copies of the ones being quoted by the time he was old enough to read. So, not that there was any need to consult the “Patristic Writings” in this case since the manuscript evidence is overwhelming, but since we have, the evidence from the “Patristic Writings” was also overwhelming before Eusebius was born (I wonder how the author missed that).

    (Barbara’s Note: I did not include any of the above information to argue any individual’s personal theology or church affiliation, so please do not address that in your response. I only offered it solely to counter what you put forth as evidence from Eusebuis’s writings, that not only did he cite the phrases in question, he wasn’t even the first one to do so.)
    ———————————-
    (K) I have yet to see a scripture given by one who believes in the trinity give a verse that unambiguously validates the trinity—only verses that Trinitarian’s say infer “The Divine Mystery” that is the Trinity and verses that have been reputed by scholarly research as corrupt additions, as in 1 John 5:7 (notice the italics in some versions, i.e. KJV AMP); Matthew 28:19. For an explanation of the corruption/insertion of false text as seen in 1 John 5:7, refer to my blog posted on July 28, 2012, 9:04 AM in “The Trinity: What Difference Does It Make?”

    (B) One of the major objections put forth by those in your camp is that Trinitarians look to a Triadic formula to support their belief, ignoring the reality that this particular verification is actually a very small part of what is put forth as evidence. When you say that you “have yet to see a scripture…that unambiguously validates the trinity,” that is just not true. In addition to the people who have contributed to this discussion, Robert Bowman’s article gives absolute proof of the Trinity; you just don’t want to acknowledge it. You have also wrongly concluded that just because the Trinity is inferred that the verses are somehow ambiguous, but such is not the case. It is true that there are no verses that emphatically state that there is a Triune God, but if one takes into account all Scripture, then it becomes evident. That is, if it can be shown that the Father is God and that the Son is God and that the Holy Spirit is God, then there are either three Gods or a Triune God. I don’t know what other conclusions can be drawn. Below are just some of the verses that imply the Trinity through the deity of Christ. Most of them are ones that I gave to Andybob in my response to him, but he hasn’t responded to them yet:

    ~Matthew 1:23 – “Behold, a virgin shall be with child, and shall bring forth a son, and they shall call his name Emmanuel, which being interpreted is, God with us” (Matt. 1:23). Andybob explained away Jesus’ deity in this verse by interpreting it to mean “God IN Christ,” but one would have to add to the Word of God to arrive at that conclusion. We know that Jesus’ proper name was never meant to be “Emmanuel” because an angel of the Lord told Joseph, “thou shalt call his name JESUS” (Matt. 1:20-21). The “name” or ‘onoma’ (Strong’s G3686) in this context refers to Jesus’ character, that He was God manifested in the flesh, not that God worked through the flesh, mind you, but that He was “made flesh” (Jn. 1:14).

    ~ Matthew 3:3 says, “For this is he [Jesus] that was spoken of by the prophet Esaias, saying, The voice of one crying in the wilderness, Prepare ye the way of the Lord, make his paths straight.” As the context reveals, John the Baptist is heralding the arrival of Jesus Christ as a fulfillment of what Isaiah prophesied: “The voice of him that crieth in the wilderness, Prepare ye the way of the LORD, make straight in the desert a highway for our God’ (Is. 40:3). Now, one may make the argument that Jesus is merely ‘Lord’ based upon the Matthew verse because the word used is “kyrios,” which has several applications. However, the Isaiah verse is not so general, clearly using the word “LORD,” or “Yahweh,” in reference to Jesus. Also, that Jesus is God is just one idea that can be taken from Malachi 3:1b which says, “and the Lord, whom ye seek, shall suddenly come to his temple, even the messenger of the covenant, whom ye delight in.” The “messenger of the covenant” is Jesus, and this excerpt says that He will “come to his temple.” If the temple is “his,” then He is God.

    
~ John 20:28 – “And Thomas answered and said unto him, My Lord and my God.” In order to explain away Christ’s deity in this verse, Dale scripted a fictitious monologue including explanations as to the number of breaths Thomas took as well as where he was looking. He also offered explanations about punctuation and even called into question the meaning of the word “and” used between the phrases. I find it so disheartening that people will go to such lengths to rid the Bible of what it is plainly saying. What earthly good or eternal purpose does this accomplish? It certainly doesn’t change what is being said. The fact is, we are told exactly where Thomas’s phrases, “My Lord and my God” were directed. They were “unto him,” meaning, of course, Jesus Christ. The truth is that God, in His wisdom, inspired men to convey His truth exactly how He wanted, and He has given us the Holy Spirit to take that truth and convey it to believers (Jn. 16:13). God’s Word is perfectly understandable and reconcilable, and believers don’t need the addition of imaginary conversations from any person or group to enlighten us to that truth. I’m sure you can see how dangerous this practice is because, if we allow these non-scriptural monologues and dialogues to color the meaning of what is being said in one verse, then where does that end? What person or group gets to decide whether it is true or not? What a mess is created when these liberties are taken with God’s holy Word.
    I included the next two verses in my response to Andybob and Dale to illustrate that, contrary to Oneness theology, Jesus, as the second Person of the Trinity, did exist as a living entity in eternity before He was born to Mary. His eternal existence implies deity.

    ~Jn. 5:37 – “And the Father himself, which hath sent me, hath borne witness of me. Ye have neither heard his voice at any time, nor seen his shape.” 
“Me,” a personal pronoun, indicating an actual entity, is what was sent by God, not a plan or foreknowledge of Christ (read also Jn. 3:16, 6:38). Also, Jesus’ comment to the Jews about their not hearing God’s voice or seeing God’s shape would have been absurd had He not actually heard or seen them Himself, calling attention to both His deity and His eternal nature.

    ~Jn. 1:18 – “No man hath seen God at any time; the only begotten Son, which is in the bosom of the Father, he hath declared [him]” (Strong’s G1834 (exegeomai).
Thayer’s Lexicon reads, “unfold, declare.”
 Vine’s Dictionary says, “lit., “to lead out,” signifies ‘to make known, rehearse, declare’… in the sentence ‘He hath declared Him,’ the other meaning of the verb is in view, to unfold in teaching, ‘to declare’ by making known.” 
Given the context that “No man hath seen God,” it is obvious that the point that John is trying to make is that the Son can declare God because He HAS seen Him, and a plan or a thought of foreknowledge cannot do anything, including seeing God.

    ~Acts 20:28 – “Take heed therefore unto yourselves, and to all the flock, over the which the Holy Ghost hath made you overseers, to feed the church of God, which he hath purchased with his own blood.” The “Restoration Scriptures True Name Version” says the same thing: “Take heed therefore to yourselves, and to all the flock, over which the Ruach Hakodesh hs made you overseers, to feed the congregation of Yisrael in vuvh, which He has purchased with His own dahm.” The footnote says, “The blood of YHWH-Eloah is a reference to His deity.”

    ~Phl. 2:6-8 – “Who, being in the form of God, thought it not robbery to be equal with God: But made himself of no reputation, and took upon him the form of a servant, and was made in the likeness of men: And being found in fashion as a man, he humbled himself, and became obedient unto death, even the death of the cross.” According to Strong’s, the word “form” means “the form by which a person or thing strikes the vision; the external appearance” (morphe, G3444). Thayer’s provides the following explanation on this passage: “…who, although (formerly when he was [? Greek] he bore the form (in which he appeared to the inhabitants of heaven) of God (the Sovereign…), yet did not think that this equality with God was to be eagerly clung to or retained…but emptied himself of it…so as to assume the form of a servant in that he became like unto men and was found in fashion as a man.” Vine’s says, “[Form} denotes ‘the special or characteristic form or feature’ of a person or thing; it is used with particular significance in the NT, only of Christ, in Phl 2:6, 7, in the phrases ‘being in the form of God,’ and ‘taking the form of a servant.’ An excellent definition of the word is that of Gifford: ‘morphe is therefore properly the nature or essence, not in the abstract, but as actually subsisting in the individual, and retained as long as the individual itself exists . . . . Thus in the passage before us morphe Theou is the Divine nature actually and inseparably subsisting in the Person of Christ . . . . For the interpretation of ‘the form of God’ it is sufficient to say that (1) it includes the whole nature and essence of Deity, and is inseparable from them, since they could have no actual existence without it; and 2) that it does not include in itself anything ‘accidental’ or separable, such as particular modes of manifestation, or conditions of glory and majesty, which may at one time be attached to the ‘form,’ at another separated from it . . . . The true meaning of morphe in the expression ‘form of God’ is confirmed by its recurrence in the corresponding phrase, ‘form of a servant.’ It is universally admitted that the two phrases are directly antithetical, and that ‘form’ must therefore have the same sense in both.’” * 
[* From Gillford, “The Incarnation,” pp. 16, 19, 39.]” Even without this explanation, the verse itself leaves no alternative other than Jesus is God.

    ~Heb. 1:8 (Ps. 45:6) – “But unto the Son [he saith], Thy throne, O GOD, [is] for ever and ever: a sceptre of righteousness [is] the sceptre of thy kingdom.”
Here, God Himself is referring to Jesus as “God,” and if anyone should know, it would be Him. Jehovah’s Witnesses and other groups who try to rid Jesus of His deity claim that this verse reads, “Your throne is God,” which is disproven in both the Hebrew and Greek in which is the phrase “the throne of you.” It is clearly possessive. Dale also claimed that this phrase is a figure of speech, which is scripturally intolerable. As I told him, “You can’t, as you have here and with the Logos (Jn. 1:1), take that which disagrees with Oneness doctrine and attempt to force it into some type of figurative pigeonhole. There are rules and language conventions that govern how we are to encode and decode words and phrases, and they will reveal that some type of figurative language is being used, and the fact is that there is just absolutely nothing in either the Psalms’ verse or the Hebrews’ verse that is doing this. If you’re going to insist that we are to understand this phrase as a metonymy rather than in the plain, literal sense in which it is written, then the burden of proof is yours to provide the internal evidence to support your claim.”

    ~ Heb. 3:1-6 – “Wherefore, holy brethren, partakers of the heavenly calling, consider the Apostle and High Priest of our profession, Christ Jesus; Who was faithful to him [GOD THE FATHER] that appointed him [JESUS], as also Moses [was faithful] in all his house. For this [man-JESUS] was counted worthy of more glory than Moses, inasmuch as he who hath builded the house [JESUS] hath more honour than the house. For every house is builded by some [man]; but HE THAT BUILT ALL THINGS [IS] GOD. And Moses verily [was] faithful in all his house, as a servant, for a testimony of those things which were to be spoken after; But Christ as a son over his own house; whose house are we, if we hold fast the confidence and the rejoicing of the hope firm unto the end.”


    Doesn’t this passage say that Jesus is the builder of the house and that the builder of the house is God?

    (K) The Word of God needs to be our own and our only norm of belief and practice, not doctrines or dogmas made by men, neither men’s religions or writings.

    (B) Although you did cite the “Word Studies” site as a source, you did not specify what portion of that article was cut and pasted into your response. It is one thing to copy a paragraph or two, if you give proper credit, but had I not gone to this site, I wouldn’t have known that so much of what you gave me as reasoning wasn’t even your words, including the sentence under (K) above.

    (K) Ethelbert W. Bullinger states: “…there is one great difficulty with regard to the [trinitarian] words [in Mt. 28:19, as we have them in our versions now]: …that, the Apostles themselves never obeyed this command; and in the rest of the New Testament there is no hint as to it ever having been obeyed by anyone.

    (B) With reference to being baptized in the name of the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit you wrote, “That altered commandment, as we have it printed now, was never fulfilled by any of the Apostles, because it was not the original order given to them by Jesus Christ.” I believe that the problem that you, Bullinger, and others have is that you are looking at this command solely as a directive for water baptism although Matthew 28:19 doesn’t even mention water baptism. A clearer understanding of Jesus’ command in the Matthew verse can be seen in Acts 19:

    v. 4: “Then said Paul, John verily baptized with the baptism of repentance, saying unto the people, that they should believe on him which should come after him, that is, on Christ Jesus.” This is a baptism, or reconciliation, unto the Father about which Mark also wrote in 1:4, signifying that one has received salvation through acceptance as Jesus Christ as Savior.

    v. 5: “When they heard [this], they were baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus. This is water baptism unto Jesus, signifying the believer’s death and resurrection in Jesus Christ.

    v. 6 “And when Paul had laid [his] hands upon them, the Holy Ghost came on them; and they spake with tongues, and prophesied.” This is baptism unto the Holy Spirit over and above what a believer receives at his or her salvation (I Cor. 12:13).

    As you can see, the apostles very much baptized “in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit,” according to Matthew 28:19. It was just on three different occasions and not just for water baptism as is usually assumed when reading this verse. I do realize that many, if not most, Christian pastors use all three names (titles) when performing water baptisms. Technically, this may not be biblically accurate, and perhaps they need to implement the exact wording in order to fully bring each baptism into focus, but I certainly do not see anything sinful or heretical if they don’t.

    (K) *The trinitarian influenced KJV uses the terminology, “…God was manifest in the flesh…” The Aramaic translation reads: “…this mystery of righteousness which was revealed in the flesh and righteous in the spirit…” Aramaic English New Testament.

    (B) Here are a few examples of Matthew 28:19 that illustrate that the phrases in question were included in many versions that predate what you referred to as the “trinitarian influenced KJV”:

    ~Geneva (NT 1557): “Go therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the Name of the Father, and the Sonne, and the holy Ghost,”

    ~William Tyndale (1526): “Go therfore and teache all nacions baptysinge them in the name of the father and the sonne and the holy goost:”

    ~John Wycliff (1384): “Therfor go ye, and teche alle folkis, baptisynge hem in the name of the Fadir, and of the Sone, and of the Hooli Goost;”

    ~West Saxon (c 990):” farað witodlice & lærað ealle þeoda & fulligeað hig on naman. fæder. & suna. & þæs halgan gastes.”

    (K) From the scriptures, I see no support that “Jesus is God.” As Brother Bowman states, “Jesus is Not God The Father.”

    (B) That “Jesus is Not God The Father” has nothing to do with whether Jesus is God. I don’t understand why you insist on arguing a non-issue unless you truly don’t understand what the Trinity is.

    (B) “…there is just no way, unless one either totally disproves or totally ignores each example given that it can biblically supported (grammar error Barbara’s) that there is not a Triune God, so my question is, were you able to prove each example false?

    (K) Yes, now let’s continue to look at your examples.

    (B) Considering that your statements about the Trinity, throughout this response, are built upon the erroneous premise that Trinitarians believe that “Jesus is God the Father,” you couldn’t have possibly proven the examples false.

    (B) If Jesus isn’t God…He forgave sins which is God’s prerogative alone.

    (K) Barbara, you state what the Pharisee’s said to Yahushua/Jesus: “….Who is this which speaketh blasphemies: who can forgive sins, but God alone?” {Luke 5:21} Yet look at what Yahushua answered: “But that ye may know that the Son of man hath power upon earth to forgive sins…..” {Luke 5:24.} If it is God’s prerogative alone, why do we see Yahushua The Son forgiving? {Luke 5:20}. If it is God’s prerogative alone, why did The Father give Yahushua the authority to execute judgment? {John 5:27}. If it is God’s prerogative alone, how do you explain Exodus 23:21: “Give heed to Him, listen to and obey His voice; be not rebellious before Him or provoke Him, for He will not pardon your transgression; for My Name is in Him.” (YWHW’s/Yahuweh’s Name is in His Son Yahushua).

    (B) I really don’t know why you are asking “Why?” Is it, or is it not, solely God’s prerogative to forgive sins? Unlike people who can tell others, upon their acceptance of Christ, that their sins have been forgiven, Jesus wasn’t doing this. He was actually forgiving people their sins based upon their faith. Had Jesus not rightly forgiven sins, even under the auspices of the Father, wouldn’t He have corrected the Pharisees?

    (K) [in reference to Jn. 10:33] You have to read ahead a few verses. He did deny the Pharisees by responding to them in verse 36, “…I am the Son of God,” {John 10:36} and also where Yahushua say’s to them this truth, “the Father is in Me and I in Him.” {John 10:38}.

    (B) In your explanation, you have again attempted to rid Jesus of His deity by saying that He did actually “deny” it, but, in reality, He did no such thing. First, we read in verse 33 that the Jews picked up stones to kill Jesus for blasphemy according to their law (Lev. 24:11-16) “because that thou, being a man, makest thyself God.” Although you try to offer an explanation of verses 33-38, what you failed to include in your explanation is the other bookend to the passage, verse 39, which says, “Therefore they sought again to take him: but he escaped out of their hand.” In other words, Jesus’ explanation in verses 34-38 couldn’t mean that He was refuting the Jews “false perception” because after Jesus, the master teacher, finished His explanation, the Jews, again, attempted to stone Him, and because no new information is given, we can rightly assume that it was for the exact reason, that He “maketh [Himself] God. In fact, this isn’t even the first time this type of scenario occurred. In John 5:18, we read, “Therefore the Jews sought the more to kill him, because he not only had broken the sabbath, but said also that God was his Father, making himself equal with God,” and Jesus didn’t offer one word of correction here either. As to your last sentence, no one is denying Jesus’ statement here, but this has nothing to do with whether Jesus is God.

    (K) If Jesus was God, He would refer to Himself as God.

    (B) I think that we can get into very dangerous scriptural ground when we presume what Jesus should’ve/could’ve/would’ve said in any given situation, which is exactly what Dale did in his responses. Elsewhere you wrote two things: “…rather than reading into The Word in order to justify your dogma, instead of letting The Word speak for itself” and “presumption is the lowest form of knowledge—therefore, it is erroneous to draw a conclusion from a presumption.” In this one sentence, you have done exactly what you took me to task for although you were wrong in your criticism of me.

    (K) He referred to Himself as being sent into the world by His Father and to Himself as The Son of God… “I and HaAv (The Father) are echad (in unity).”

    (B) Absolutely

    (K The trinitarian view holds that God is Yahushua and Yahushua is God.

    (B) No. The Trinitarian view is that God is the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit and that Jesus is God but not that Jesus is the Father as in the first person of the Trinity. In fact, that is the distinction that is being made in John 1:1, that Jesus is God but God is much more than Jesus. I don’t mean to beat this to death, but as I have mentioned, your definition of the Trinity isn’t even correct, so I have two questions. Where did you get this definition, and do you think that just maybe you could be wrong given the fact that you don’t even know what the Trinity is? I also have one other point to make. If what you’ve been taught as the definition of the Trinity clearly contradicts what Trinitarians believe is the correct definition, then don’t you think you need to at least look at it from the correct perspective before making judgment? I’m not saying, here, that you have to begin your study with the premise that the Trinity is biblically correct, only that you need to begin it with the correct definition because, obviously, if your definition is wrong, and it is, then how can your conclusion possibly be right?

    (K) “They are all equally God,” from Don Stewart’s FAQ’s, June 26, 2012 , “What is the Doctrine of the Trinity?” BLB. The verses from John 10, correctly translated and understood, show the plurality of Diety [sic].

    (B) Don Stewart’s comment does reflect the Triune nature of God, but I’m not sure why you have brought this up because I already know this. Because your last sentence is not set apart by any citation giving credit to anyone else, I assume that this is your sentiment. I’m not sure what your point is. Are you saying that there are two Gods? Please give further clarification as to why you have included this excerpt into your argument so that I can address your exact concern.

    (K) (in reference to my citing John 20:28 as proof that Jesus is God): This is not a verse that I consider reliable as a basis for establishing that Yahushua is God (The Father) as translated from the KJV.

    (B) As I have written in this and my previous post, Trinitarians do not believe that “Yahushua is God (The Father).” However, here are, again, four examples that are not “translated from the KJV” that do, indeed, testify that Jesus is God, strongly implying a biblical Trinity:

    ~Geneva (NT 1557): “Then Thomas answered, and said vnto him, Thou art my Lord, and my God.”

    ~William Tyndale (1526): “Thomas answered and sayde vnto him: my Lorde and my God.”

    ~John Wycliff (1384): “Thomas answeride, and seide to him, My Lord and my God.”

    ~West Saxon (c 990): “Ðomäs &swarode & cwæð to him; þu [eart] min god & min drihten.” (B) The word order already refers to Jesus as God, and the word “drihten” means 1. Lord, governor, leader or 2. The Lord; God (Wiktionary).

    (K) Barbara, in your first response to me, you state, “One thing we must both bear in mind and that is that we both must base our interpretations and conclusions on the entire counsel of God (1 Tim. 3:16), not on isolated verses.” I agree. (Notwithstanding that 1 Tim. 3:16 is a corrupted verse).

    (B) I believe you misread what I wrote. I didn’t cite I Timothy 3:16; I cited II Timothy 3:16 as the source of the verse I quoted. Secondly, all of the manuscripts that were used in formulating the NT were in Greek, not Aramaic, so I don’t need to take my understanding from the Aramaic.

    (K) For greater credibility and with no ambiguity, in order to establish the status of Who Yah shua/Jesus is, let us look instead to the apostles…. I am rather convicted to stand with Peter, WHILE Peter was under the Annointing of Father’s Holy Spirit!: “And Simon Peter answered and said Thou art the Christ, the Son of the living God.” {Matthew 16:16 KJV}

    (B) I agree.

    (B) “If Jesus isn’t God……He couldn’t have been eternal (Rom 1:20).

    (K) Micah 5:2 tells us otherwise: “But thou, Bethlehem ratah, though thou be little among the thousands of Judah, yet out of thee shall he [Yahushua/The Messiah] come forth unto me that is to be ruler in Israel; whose [Yahushua/The Messiah] goings forth have been from of old, from everlasting.” {KJV}. Micah 5:4 clearly identifies Yahushua/Jesus as the everlasting one who is being spoken of in verse 2. 5:4.

    (B) Please tell me what kind of reasoning this is. That Jesus IS the One “whose goings forth [have been] from of old, from everlasting” (v. 2), is, without question, what points to His deity. A being cannot exist outside of time, meaning that He is self-existent, uncreated, unless He is God. Yes, “Micah 5:4 clearly identifies Yahushua/Jesus as the everlasting one who is being spoken of in verse 2.

    (K) I do get the sense that Yahushua/Jesus IS eternal. From these verses cited, how does a trinitarian perceive the phenomenon of Yahushua sitting with His Father “in His throne,” “at his own right hand,” if there is just One being? I’d very much like to hear a trinitarian perspective in response to this question. (An answer related to their being “three” persons from One Being would merit an “F,” as in flunk, as John 8:42 negates this premise).

    (B) Again, your understanding of the Trinity is skewed. Sometimes, in trying to define the Trinity, the words chosen have a different meaning to the listener than to the speaker. After all, it’s not easy explaining an infinite entity with a finite mind. Those who use the word “being” don’t mean it in the sense of one numerical entity, as modalists do, but that each (Father, Son, Holy Spirit) is fully God, existing in complete unity, or oneness, with the other members of the Trinity that makes up the one God. You are right that “their being ‘three’ persons from One Being would merit an ‘F,’ as in flunk,” but this isn’t the definition of the Trinity. Also, throughout your response, you have referred to Jesus as YHWH, which, as you know is the sacred name of God, the great “I AM,” meaning “to be.” There is, therefore, no reason to “sense that Yahushua/Jesus IS eternal” because Scripture plainly says so, something with which you agree. What I don’t understand is how you can accept the reality that Jesus is YHWH, the self-existent One and then deny that He is God. I can’t understand why you would suggest that a numerical-one God, which, by the way, He is never referred to as, who is a jealous God (Ex. 20:5) and Who rightfully doesn’t and won’t share any portion of His glory with anything or anyone would allow another entity, Jesus, no matter how righteous He is, to share His personal name. In addition, I would very much like to hear a reasonable explanation to clarify how a self-existent entity is not God.

    (B) “If Jesus isn’t God……He doesn’t [then] contain the fullness of the Godhead bodily.” (Col. 2:9).

    (K) Col. 2:10 say’s that we have also been made complete in Him. That action of being made complete in Him doesn’t make us Him, nor does that action of the fullness of El-Elyon dwelling in Yahushua/Jesus bodily make Yahushua/Jesus El Elyon (the Most High).

    (B) You are right, but just because two verses are together doesn’t necessarily mean that there is an equal correlation between them. In verse 9, the Greek word “theotes” (Strong’s G2320) is used for the phrase “of the Godhead,” and it means “ (1 deity a) the state of being God, Godhead.” In the BLB commentaries, Richard C. Trench writes, “But in…(Col. 2:9) St. Paul is declaring that in the Son there dwells all the fulness of absolute Godhead; they were no mere rays of divine glory which gilded Him, lighting up his person for a season and with a splendour not his own; but He was, and is, absolute and perfect God; and the Apostle uses θεότης to express this essential and personal Godhead of the Son.” Verse 9 completes the previous eight verses about who Christ is within Himself while verse 10 tells whom believers are in Christ, an explanation that goes to the end of the chapter. The first is Who He is by virtue of His being God while the latter is who we are by virtue of he being in us. We are told, “For in him we live, and move, and have our being; as certain also of your own poets have said, For we are also his offspring” (Acts 17:28). We are all this because we are in Christ, but never is it written that Christ is dependent upon the Father for Who He is, only that He submits Himself to the Father for what He does of which I wrote earlier.

    (K) And there is more scripture testifying that Father gave to Yahushua/Jesus His glory. “I will that they also, whom thou hast given me, be with me where I am; that they may behold my glory, which thou hast given me: for thou lovedst me before the foundation of the world.” {John 17:24 – KJV}.

    (B) Jn. 17:5 – “And now, O Father, glorify thou me with thine own self with the glory which I HAD with thee BEFORE THE WORLD WAS” (caps mine).
Because the second person of the Trinity, known as Jesus on Earth, existed before the foundation of the world and had glory with the Father, He is both eternal and God. Being fully submitted to the Father, Jesus committed all to Him, including all that He had before coming to Earth. Remember, we are told “Who in the days of his flesh, when he had offered up prayers and supplications with strong crying and tears unto him that was able to save him from death, and was heard in that he feared;Though he were a Son, yet learned he obedience by the things which he suffered; And being made perfect, he became the author of eternal salvation unto all them that obey him” (Heb. 5:7-9).

    (K) …the term “Godhead” is not is the original manuscripts….{Halleluyah Scriptures}. Col. 9. “In whom dwells all the fullness of Elohim bodily.”

    (B) You are right. The word “‘Godhead’ is not in the original manuscripts.” The word is “theotes” (Strong’s G2320), and it means “1) deity a) the state of being God, Godhead.”

    (K) That fullness proceeds from the Higher Hierarchical Order from Father to the Son. Yahushua/Jesus received Authority and Power from the Father–notice that Yahushua/Jesus always perfectly communed/prayed to and deferred to the Father. “…let your will be done.” {Matthew 26:42}. One who derives/receives Power and Authority from another cannot be of the stature or magnitude of that other. We have to use logic too when studying scripture.

    (B) I already explained how Jesus can be God and still be in subjection, or One who “derives/receives Power and Authority from another,” so there is no need to address any of the following explanations that you have given to rebut my original comments. You are very adept at using any and all sources that deny the Trinity while not giving even one good explanation as to why God would allow His Word to be corrupted for so many hundreds and hundreds of years, leading untold millions of people into the false, polytheistic, worship that would send them to hell for eternity. As you said above, “We have to use logic too when studying scripture.” In addition, you need to give a reasonable explanation to explain away the verses and passages that I provided for examination earlier in my response.

    (B) “If Jesus isn’t God……[then] He blasphemed God by claiming the titles of Alpha and Omega, Lord, and Almighty (Rev. 1:8) for Himself.

    (K) Barbara, we need a deeper understanding of this verse that just is not revealed unless we study the root meaning of the words. I will defer to Andrew Gabriel Roth’s Aramaic English New Testament footnote #3 reference to this verse….

    (B) Despite your lengthy explanation, Christ still attributes to Himself titles of God. For someone who has repeatedly criticized me for not reading what is plainly written, I don’t understand why you take exception to what is written in this verse. The book of Revelation is Jesus Christ revealing Himself, and He is perfectly capable of using words that convey exactly what He means. What about the word “Almighty”? How do you explain that away?

    (B) ”Either there is more than one God, a direct contradiction to many verses, including Deuteronomy 6:4, or else there is a real possibility that there is at least the hint of a Triune God.

    (K) I would have to answer NOT APPLICABLE to your “either” “or” scenario, as it presents a stereotypical box where the truth does not reside. Let’s look for truth outside of tradition’s unholy box.

    (B) Your comments are fallacies. My premise is legitimate, especially because I used the qualifying phrase “that there is at least the hint of a Triune God.” Also, your comment about a “stereotypical box where the truth does not reside” is circular reasoning. The explanation that follows your “unholy box” remark about Deuteronomy 6:4 and the word “Elohim” is something that you have addressed several times with numerous citations and explanations, this particular one ending with the same incorrect conclusion: “It is not in the Trinitarian sense that holds that the Father is the Son/The Son is The Father.” I want you to really think about something, here. Your understanding, as I have commented here and elsewhere, is wrong. If you are mistaken in your understanding of the very definition of the Trinity, then there is no logical way that you could have disproven all of Robert Bowman’s examples as you claim because rule number one is that to develop a sound argument, the premise has to be right. I’m assuming you agree with this.

    (K) It is troublesome that you dismiss a verse [Jn. 5:20] because it does not fit your belief system. The verse clearly say’s that ‘the Son can do nothing of himself,’ and you toss it out, declaring that it doesn’t mean what it say’s. This is an audacious presumption, seeking to alter scripture, insinuating that our Messiah should word things differently or that He doesn’t mean what He say’s.

    (B) I’ve not “Insinuat[ed]” any such thing. I think Jesus says exactly what He means and means exactly what He says. Given that you have repeatedly acknowledged Him as the self-existent One through the name YHWH, it stands to reason that it isn’t that He can’t do anything of Himself but that He chooses not to. He is a separate being with a will of His own, but He chooses, as we are to choose, to surrender all to Him as He surrenders all to the Father. This was already addressed throughout this response (e.g. Phil. 2:6-8).

    (K) I ask a rhetorical question, “Which is it, one person or three persons?”

    (B) In the first place, this is not a “rhetorical question.” A rhetorical question is a figure of speech that is formed as a question in order to get someone to think or listen more carefully such as “Do you think money grows on trees?” or “Do you think I’m stupid?” It is not asked with the expectation of receiving an answer whereas, in our dialogue, asking the question of whether or not God is one or three persons is the very premise being examined, and an answer is very much expected. Secondly, while I would say that the word “person” to further define the word “One” was not the greatest choice, I don’t see how your sarcasm aids in this discussion. As I wrote earlier, it’s not easy defining the infinite with a finite mind, and while we do need to be careful with what words we choose, I think if you took all of what is being said in that verse, you would come to understand why that word was chosen.

    (K) Thomas Jefferson described Trinitarian religionists as using “unintelligible propositions.”

    (B) In addition to the above quote, you ended your response with a short, yet scathing, discourse on the Trinity, also by Jefferson. If I may, I know that you are passionate about what you believe, and although I, just as passionately, believe that you are wrong, I want to share something to help you in writing an argument. When seeking sources to support for your viewpoint, who you quote is just as important as what you quote. That Thomas Jefferson was a great patriot and highly accomplished, both professionally and personally, goes without saying. However, his talents and achievements don’t necessarily translate into his being a credible authority on Scripture, especially in light of the fact that he had a total disdain for the written Word of God. When someone chooses, as Jefferson most certainly did, which parts of the Bible that he or she accepts as truth (self-reasoned truth, not the eternal and inspired truth of God), and when someone refers to the book of Revelation as “merely the ravings of a maniac,” as he also did, then I think that it can be rightfully concluded that, despite any statement to the contrary, he was not a Christian; therefore, he wouldn’t have been able to rightly divide the Word (II Tim. 2:15), about the Trinity or anything else, because that ability only comes through God’s Spirit (Jn. 16:3, I Cor. 2:14). The bottom line is, then, if you are going to hold up Jefferson as a credible authority on the Trinity, then you cannot distance your beliefs from the rest of his theology. To find out more about Jefferson’s views on the Bible and God, Google “The Bible According to Thomas Jefferson/The Humanist” and then you may think twice about bringing your spiritual understanding alongside his.

    I have done my best in answering your concerns, and I believe that I have given solid scriptural support as well as logical reasoning. If I haven’t been clear enough, please let me know. I don’t want to continue with responses that are this long. They are just too time-consuming, and to be honest, there was just too much repetition. While I do welcome your thoughts on what I have written and don’t want to limit anything you feel the need to say, I believe the issue of whether Jesus is God can be put to rest in the series of verses and passages that I provided after your comment, “I have yet to see a scripture given by one who believes in the trinity give a verse that unambiguously validates the trinity…” as well as in several other verses and passages (e.g. Jn. 10:33-39; 17:5). Because we both know that no Scripture can be at variance with any other Scripture, if these nine examples prove that Jesus is God, or if you can show that they don’t, then we will save a lot of time going back and forth on definitions of the Trinity.

    I pray that God will keep our hearts soft and our minds sharp as we seek to know His truth.
    Barbara

    • Barbara LeFevre

      Kenneth~

      Sorry. I inadvertently left out an explanation about Jesus’ comment, “I go unto the Father: for my Father is greater than I” (Jn. 14:28b). In the first place, Jesus didn’t say ‘better,’ that the Father was better than He is, which denotes innate superiority with regard to who He essentially is. Secondly, this, again, refers to Christ’s position in the Father, His role as the Second Person of the Trinity, which was especially more apparent during His incarnation.

      I did have one other comment. You used the word ‘Elohim’ (Mighty Ones) many times to tell me that the Father and the Son are “a collective noun, a relationship, which connotes a numerical two, those Two being The Father and The Son” in order to correct me that the Son is not God the Father. I already addressed this numerous times in my response, so my purpose, here, is not to bring that up again, but it did get me to thinking about something that also proves that Jesus is God. There are only three intelligent beings in the universe above the animal kingdom, God, Angels, and mankind, which means that Jesus has to be one of these. You refer to Him as a Mighty One, but that isn’t an existent being, created or not. As eternal, He can’t be a man, and He certainly isn’t an angel. This only leaves God. Let me know what you think.

      Barbara

  • http://www.capitaldynamicsre.com Kenneth Jelladian

    Barbara, well, the way I’ve put it together in my mind rest’s with the phrase, the “only Begotten Son.” The word “only” carries significant meaning. The Son is THE ONLY Eternal Being who always was in The Father and not the Father. He is the only “brought forth” Son. One of His purpose’s is to cause manifestation in the physical world as The Creator. Father is the Designer, the Head and Lead Architect, The Source, The Supreme Being.

    As to Yahushua being God, as in God The Father, no man could see God and live. The Hebrews well knew that. So that logically dispels the concept of Yahushua being God. Though it does not dispel that fact that Yahushua is still Deity. I think that the Hebrew descriptive term “Elohim” does explain the relationship and the dynamic between The Father and The Son quite well by piercing the paradox of the relationship that exists between our Deity’s. The Son has received a granted Authority and Power from the Father and they work together in Love and Unity. With the paradyne that the word Elohim describes, I am able to “perceive” inclusively The Father and The Son, rather than being limited in my “perception” and experience of just One Being. This inclusive “perception” allows me to honor and go before and relate to and experience The Father for Who He is and to honor and be with Yahushua (ha Moshiach/the Messiah) for Who He is. It fits me. Yahushua appeared to me when I was 23 years old. Truly, He is THE KING–He is Royal Power, Light, Graceful, Noble, Supportive. Ohhh my.

    As regards responding to your letter, because I run a business, which consumes quite a bit of my time, I think that I might respond in shorter segments, such as is the nature of this letter, and respond whenever. I did devote quite a few hours and even major portions of my day’s to the last letter in response to your letter because I felt strongly compelled to do so, and because I was able to express the essential things that I wanted to regarding the subject of the trinity, I don’t expect a need for such lengthiness in further writings. That should give us both a sigh of relief.

    Blessings,

    Kenneth

    • Barbara LeFevre

      Kenneth~

      Well, I’m glad that we are in agreement about exchanging shorter responses. It was too much for me, also.

      You wrote, “As to Yahushua being God, as in God The Father, no man could see God and live. The Hebrews well knew that. So that logically dispels the concept of Yahushua being God.” I almost don’t know what to say. While writing my last response, I brought to your attention, multiple times, that Trinitarians don’t believe that Jesus is God the Father, so why are you still insisting, as you have in your first sentence, that this is what we believe? This, of course, also makes your third sentence erroneous because it is based upon an unsound premise about which I also wrote in my response. That Jesus isn’t God, “as in God The Father,” has nothing to do with His being God, so you have not “logically [dispelled] anything.

      Your second paragraph is just a repeat of what you have already told me rather than an answer to what I wrote. My question is, because there are only three intelligent beings above the animal kingdom in the universe, God, angels, and mankind, which one is Jesus? You don’t need to go into any long, theological explanations about “paradigms” or the word “Elohim” or what you “perceive.” All you need to do is to write the one word/title that reflects your opinion.

      You wrote, “I did devote quite a few hours and even major portions of my day’s to the last letter in response to your letter because I felt strongly compelled to do so, and because I was able to express the essential things that I wanted to regarding the subject of the trinity, I don’t expect a need for such lengthiness in further writings.” Well, you know what? I also spent “quite a few hours and even major portions of my day’s [sic]” working on my response, too. What this sounds like to me in light of the fact that you only responded to one issue from my response, and that incorrectly, is that you are only “compelled” to give information when it is to tell people that they are wrong but never when you are called upon to answer their rebuttals. Put another way, your being compelled either came from your flesh or from the Spirit. If it was from your flesh, then you were not acting in accordance to God’s will. If, however, it was from the Spirit, then that same Spirit who had you spend “quite a few hours and even major portions of [your] day’s [sic]” expressing these “essential things…regarding the…trinity” would also make sure that you had the time to answer any rebuttals to what you wrote, regardless of whether you were trying to “run a business.” In addition, I’m not saying that you have to agree with me, but considering we are called to reason together (Is. 1:18) and to contend for the faith (Jude 1:3), it is reasonable to expect that you logically and biblically address my answers and tell me why they are wrong. I might not have the demands on my time that you do, but my time is still valuable, and if I spend it answering your concerns, especially since you criticized me that I “don’t adequately address [your] assertions,” then I certainly think you should address mine.

      Quite frankly, I don’t want to go around and around, ad nauseam, about the definition of the Trinity because, for some reason, you are unable to understand it. Therefore, as I suggested in my last post, let us forgo trying to define the Trinity and examine whether Scripture allows for Jesus being God because if He is, then you would certainly have to acknowledge that a Trinity is possible. In addition, because neither of us wants to spend our time on writing such extensive responses, I think the answer can be found in the following verses. Rather than copy the explanations, I thought you could go to my post to read them so that you don’t ask questions about something I have already answered. I’ll even make this easy on the demands on your time. There are eight verses/passages that I believe conclusively prove that Jesus is God. I’ve chosen two (marked with asterisks), and you can choose two and then tell me why my interpretation is wrong. If I am, I will admit it and apologize. To keep this short as possible, let’s please stick to the topic at hand and not veer off into the issues you have, again, brought up about “Jesus not being God the Father,” the word “Elohim,” or what you “perceive.” We’ve discussed the first two, and the third is subjective.

      ~Matthew 1:23 ~Matthew 3:3 ~John 10:33-39 ~John 20:28 ~Acts 20:28 ~Philippians 2:6-8* ~Hebrews 1:8 (Ps. 45:6)* ~Hebrews 3:1-6

      After we are done with the four verses/passages, then we can, if you want, take the other issues and discuss them.

      Have a good week~
      Barbara

      • Barbara LeFevre

        I do have one more request. I want to know which of the three (God, angels, mankind) that Jesus is. This only requires that you type one word, so it shouldn’t take any time at all. Thank you.

  • http://www.capitaldynamicsre.com Kenneth Jelladian

    Elohim.

    • Barbara LeFevre

      Kenneth~

      Why can’t you answer the question I asked? Saying that Jesus or anyone is an “elohim” doesn’t carry any argumentative weight because the word has many denotations:

      1) (plural)
      a) rulers, judges
      b) divine ones
      c) angels
      d) gods

      2) (plural intensive – singular meaning)
      a) god, goddess
      b) godlike one
      c) works or special possessions of God
      d) the (true) God
      e) God

      (Strong’s H430, BLB)

      I have, as you have asked, provided eight verses as proof that Jesus is God, so I am now asking the same thing of you. Please furnish the Scripture reference that proves that Jesus is merely “divine” or “a mighty one” at the exclusion of His being God. Between the verses I gave and the verse or verses that you are going to give, we should have no trouble finding the truth of God’s Word on this topic.

      Thanks!
      Barbara

  • http://www.capitaldynamicsre.com Kenneth Jelladian

    Define “God.”

    • Barbara LeFevre

      God, Kenneth, big “G” God. We’ve been doing his for 2-3 months; you know full well what I mean, so I’m not going to define anything anymore. If you can’t remember what I said, then please go back to my responses to refresh your memory.

      I say that Jesus is God, and I gave you eight verses in support of that. You say that Jesus is an Elohim, but not “the (true) God” or “God,” and all I am asking is that you choose one of the seven remaining examples from Strong’s given from my last post that you think refers to Jesus and then provide the Scripture reference in support of it. Either Jesus is God, or He is not, and you have two ways to prove me wrong, through the eight verses I gave or through the one verse you’re going to give. I will await your answer.

      • Barbara LeFevre

        Kenneth~

        It’s been five days since I last posted, and I thought I would have heard from you by now because you usually respond fairly quickly. I know you might be busy with your business. I was just wondering when you think you might have something about those verses I gave.

        Thanks~
        Barbara

        • http://www.capitaldynamicsre.com Kenneth Jelladian

          Barbara, I’m about 2/3rds done. Been working long hours–YHWH keeps Blessing me. Praise Him. Ken.

  • http://www.capitaldynamicsre.com Kenneth Jelladian

    Barbara:

    The word “God” is a neutered terminology describing Deity which is sorely lacking in it’s ability to convey a description of The Powers that have created, love and preside over us. You didn’t accept the one word, “Elohim,” describing Yahushua/Jesus that I provided, so it was logical that I provide you with the opportunity to define the terminology, “God,” so that I could see if by your definition, I could answer Yes or No to your question. You chose not to define, hence, I cannot answer your question, at least not in the “yes” or “no” manner that you so adamantly seek. You seek to have me give a Yes or No answer, a Yes answer which would suit your particular box or veiwpoint and a no answer that would enter the absurd. I won’t do that. I answered your question in one word as you asked, using the plural collective noun, “Elohim,” which is a word evidenced by scholars as sourced from the Khabouris Codex and various other credible texts and is an answer that conveys my viewpoint. You seek to compel me to answer in a way that conforms to your viewpoint–in dialoguing in this manner, you might as well just dialogue with yourself. I notice that this domineering style of force is your MO as you communicate with others in this blog. Dee B chastised you for this. Your manner is lacking a “soft heart,” which you ask other’s to do, but do not do yourself. Father want’s our love with all of our heart, soul, strength and mind and I do commend you that you have the soul, strength and mind aspect down–you are very much to be credited for the knowledge that you have acquired and your love of Him by using your mind as you seek Him. Now balance with the heart. I confess that the “soft heart” is something that I need developed in me and I will endeavor to do that with you. When I write, I only mean to edify another.

    Using your definition’s of Elohim in your Sep’t. 7 blog above, I would describe Yahushua/Jesus as being in the category of 1 a – rulers, judges and 1 b – divine ones–observe the plurality. As to your above statement that my describing Jesus as “elohim” carries no argumentative weight, please reconsider, in light of this fact: In Strong’s H430, which you yourself provided, “Elohiym,” is defined as, “gods in the ordinary sense;” “but spec. used (in the plur. thus, esp. with the art.) of the Supreme God;” Observe that Deity is defined in the second definition as “especially” and in the “plural form” of Supreme God, exactly the meanings that I choose to convey in my use of the word Elohim. The use of the word “especially” that Strong’s uses denotes the commonly accepted understanding of the word “Elohim,” as the plural form of The Supreme Being. As the context within which a word is used convey’s it’s intended purpose, one would know that I intended to describe the Deity’s that preside over us. Yahushua/Jesus is not an elohim, as you describe how I describe Him–that would be equivalent to a person saying that He is one of many gods; Rather, Yahushua/Jesus IS Elohim. Elohim is the perfect word to convey his Being and His Stature. The plural connotes that Yahushua serves with His Father as an Eloah Class Being. The Father is The Supreme Being, Yahushua is not The Supreme Being and serves in perfect union (echad) as Deity with The Supreme Being. “Shema Yisrael: YHWH is our Elohim. YHWH is Echad.” {Devarim/Deuteronomy 6:4}.

    Notwithstanding the above, here are 3 scriptures that will help provide an answer to your question: “I want to know which of the three (God, angels, mankind) that Jesus is. I use a translation that uses the word God, seeing that you prefer that terminology:

    A. “No man has seen God at any time……” {1st John 4:12}.
    B. “No man hath seen God at any time;:…” {John 1:18}.
    C. “And Manoah said unto his wife, We shall surely die, because we have seen God.” {Judges 13:22} (This scripture reveals the Hebrew mindset, which would have been shared by the disciple Thomas.)

    In light of the above verses, if you accept that Jesus could be seen by people, than you would also have to accept that Jesus isn’t God, the Supreme Being.

    Let’s analyze now the various scriptures that you attest to as supporting your acceptance of Jesus as God:

    1 ~ Matthew 1:23 – We have to turn to the Hebrew language to understand the intent of this verse. The key to understanding is in the word/title(not a name), “Emmanuel/Emmanu-El. The “El” conveys the eternal nature of the Messiah who was long prophesied to come (and who did come); “Emmanu” means, “with us.” Yahushua was sent into the world {John 17:18} by His Father, The Supreme God, to do the will of the Father, to perform the works of the Father, and He did so, so perfectly that to experience Yahushua/Jesus was to experience God, and that is the meaning of this verse. He could rightly say, “…whoever see’s me sees the Father…” {Jn. 14:9} “Don’t you believe that I am in my Father and my Father is in me.” {Jn. 14:10} When Yahushua is saying Father, this insinuates another Being and One of Higher Authority. If there is another Being, then the Trinitarian conceptualization cannot be valid. When Yahushua/Jesus refers to His Father, this connotes that Yahushua is not that Higher Authority–He is deferring to a Higher Being, as He does throughout scripture, and therefore He is not the Supreme Being/God/Big-G, as you define. Also, He say’s that He is “in” his Father—making it nonsensical for Him to be The Supreme Being if He is saying that He is “in” the Supreme Being.

    Side note: I think, Barbara the most wonderful thing that we can experience while we’re on this earthly sojourn is to palpably experience His Divine Presence and His Love.

    2 ~ Matthew 3:3 ~ The King James uses the word LORD, which mean’s Master. The cross reference is Isaiah 40:3, where John the Baptist cries the command to “Prepare the way of The LORD,” LORD referring to the Master Yahushua/Jesus as the Messiah. Read ahead to Isaiah 40:10, and you will see a clear reference to Yahushua as Messiah and YHWH’s “arm,”: “….and his Arm shall rule for Him: see, His reward is with Him, and His work before Him.” The reward is Salvation and Eternal life, the work is redemption and restoration, certainly rewards and works that Yahushua the Messiah achieved for us. (The Name Yahushua means “Yah saves,” or “Salvation of Yah.”) If Yahushua is ruling “for Him,” He must not be Him. Right? I see no where in this verse any conveyance of meaning that Jesus is Big-G.

    3 ~ Next, John 10:33-39 – Here are those darn Pharisees again, telling lies, whining to Yahushua that He is blaspheming by “mak[ing]Yourself God.” Because someone say’s that another is something doesn’t make that other that something, especially if it come’s from the lip’s of “whitewashed sepulchers.” Observe again that Yahushua/Jesus was “sent” by the Father, v: 36, sent denoting under the authority of, thus distinguishing Himself as a Being that is not The Supreme Being/The Father. And in v: 38, that Yahushua/Jesus is “in” the Father and The Father “in” Him, a dynamic that I have already elaborated on in par. 1.

    Yahushua didn’t respond to the Pharisees the way he responded to Pilate, by saying, “Thou sayest it.” {Mark 15:2} He clearly disacknowledged their identification of Him as being God/Supreme Being, identifying Himself instead in v: 36 as “the Son of God,” another clear description defining His status as one who is under the authority of another-that other being YHWH/The Supreme Being. Diety consists of two Beings, as we see scripture identify the Father and The Son in Proverbs 30:4. And The One Supreme Being has no equal, Isaiah 40:25.

    4 ~ John 20:28 – I have elaborated my answer to this verse in my previous response to you on August 12. Essentially, Peter, WHILE EXPERIENCING THE POWER OF THE HOLY SPIRIT UPON HIM AS ACKNOWLEDGED BY YAHUSHUA/ JESUS and John both refer to Yahushua/Jesus as the Messiah, not as The Supreme Being manifest in the Flesh. These identifications by Peter and John far outweigh Thomas’ identifying proclamation of Jesus as “God,” especially in light of the terminology “God” being a westernized, neutered term. You can refer to A, B and C above as added refutation. Paragraph #7 below further elaborates on this.

    5 ~ Acts 20:28 – “…the church of God..” “…he hath purchased.” The word “church” means structure. It is not a word that was in any of the original texts. An appropriate translation would instead read “assembly” or “congregation.” Yahushua “purchased” us, bought us with His blood. We are His assembly/congregation/body on the earth. I do not read into this that His “purchase” is indicative of His being God, if that is your intended meaning in presenting this verse. It does tell us that He is the sent One, the Messiah, instrumental in our Salvation through His offering of Himself, His Blood. In John 10:29, we see that The Father gave the church, the “assembly,” us, to Yahushua/Jesus. It was God’s first to give. Yahushua is the inheritor, through His atoning sacrifice.

    The Trinitarian view holds that there is One Being who is The Supreme God with Christ also being that same Supreme Being although appearing as the 2nd Person of the trinity. And for the Trinitarians to use the term “2nd Person,” instead of acknowledging the existence of a 2nd Being, is just semantical trickery and equivalent to pulling a rabbit out of a hat. The non-trinitarian view, the view that I possess, hold’s that there are two Beings, working in unity (echad) with one other.

    6 ~ Philippians 2:6-8 – I suspect that we’re going to get into some Trinitarian induced confusion, but here goes:

    The phrase, “equal with God,” presumes that there are two beings, which supports a non-trinitarian view. Yahushua, as described in v: 6 manifested in the “form” of God. Some translations say the “likeness” of God. The verse doesn’t say that God Himself manifested. It does convey that Yahushua so perfectly reflected a likeness to The Father, fully expressing God, being the “Face of God,” that it was considered that he was “equal” with God. Being in the likeness presumes that there is another, which negates there being One. Yahushua perfectly expressed the attributes of The Supreme Being, His Father. V:9 goes on to say that YHWH highly exalted Him, Yahushua/Jesus, and gave Him His (YHWH’s/Yahuweh’s) Name—Yah hushua. Commonly, one exalts another and the righteous do not exalt their selves, hence YHWH would not have exalted Himself. Only prideful people and Satan exalt themselves.

    7 ~ Hebrews 1:8 (Ps. 45:6) – “To wit, that God was in Christ, reconciling the world unto himself, not imputing their trespasses unto them; and hath committed unto us the word of reconciliation.” {II Corinthians 5:19}. With God in Christ, Christ would be referred to as God, in that Christ carried the fullness and the attributes of God, perfectly reflecting the Father. That doesn’t make Him God. Again, scripture’s distinguish and differentiate the existence’s of Two Beings, Two ruling Powers and each’s proper hierarchical position within that Divine order of Power.

    8 ~ Hebrews 3:1-6 – Is this your equation?: God built the house, (v: 4); Christ AS A SON
    (caps mine) rules over his own house v:6, therefore Christ Yahushua/Jesus is God? If so, no, this does not support the belief that Jesus is God. The King James Amplified Version elucidates this well, as we read, v:6, “But Christ (the Messiah) was faithful over His [own Father’s] house as a Son [and Master of it]. And it is we who are [now members] of this house, if we hold fast and firm to the end our joyful and exultant confidence and sense of triumph in our hope [in Christ].” (All brackets, parentheses, and italics are the Amplified’s). This interpretation speaks of two individual Beings in the explanation that it is God’s house and Christ is Master over His Father’s house. There is a distinction between God and Yahushua the Son, God building the house and Yahushua the Son presiding as Master over it. They are two Beings, each expressing in their own autonomy, yet with the Son always seeking to operate in Unity with God and thus confirming that Yahushua/Jesus is not God/Ein Sof.

    Observe in Hebrews 3:4, wherein it stated that God built all things, (which would include the house). Hebrews 1:2 clarifies by stating that God made the worlds by His Son and appointed the Son heir of all things. We see the action of Two Beings, the Son working in unity with the Father, to build the house and to inherit being Master over it.

    Because there are no verses in scripture that validate the Trinitarian view that One God expresses as three Persons, I can only believe that these verses speak of two Beings, which nullifies the concept of the Trinity which declares of One Being. Robert Bowman, Jr., in support of the trinity, defines the One Being of the trinity as follows: “Over 7,000 times* God speaks or is spoken of with singular pronouns (I, He, etc.); but this is proper because God is a single individual being; thus these singular forms do not disprove that God exists as three “persons” as long as these persons are not separate beings.” An Outline Study, by Robert Bowman, Jr. Chapter IV. Is God One Person? Section C.1. *What Bowman is inaccurately referring to is that The Supreme Being’s Name YHWH/Yahuweh, which was written apprx. 7,000 times in the original texts, was transcribed to the word “God.”

    When wily Robert state’s that “these singular forms do not disprove that God exists……separate beings,” this is a wily but fictitious, ineffectual way of supporting a doctrine. It may not disprove, but it also does not prove, either. i.e. the reality of the light bulb was proved and created after a series of disprovings, but the disprovings did not prove the reality of the light bulb.

    I was a bit shocked when you said in your previous response to me, and I quote, “He is a separate being with a will of His own, but He chooses, as we are to choose, to surrender all to Him as He surrenders all to the Father.” Your statement is the antithesis of the definition of the trinity, as described two paragraphs above. Your view is exactly how I believe. As the point of our dialogue has been to prove or disprove the validity of the trinity, and we agree that he is an individual/“separate” being, as you have stated, and the Trinitarian doctrine espouses “not separate beings,” it appears that we have come to agreement in support of a non-trinitarian view.

    Your Brother In Christ,

    Kenneth

    • Barbara LeFevre

      Kenneth~

      I have read your comments, but I won’t be able to get anything written and posted for a week or so.

      Barbara

  • http://www.capitaldynamicsre.com Kenneth Jelladian

    Barbara: I came across this verse which was as a Gold nugget quietly setting on an emerald and ivory pedestal, there to be discovered and utilized, for those who have ears to hear and eyes to see: {Hebrews 1:9} “Thou hast loved righteousness, and hated iniquity; therefore God, even thy God, hath anointed thee with the oil of gladness above thy fellows.”

    The preceding verses of this chapter are speaking of The Son, Yahushua/Jesus. Then, in this 9th verse, the reference is to The Son’s, Yahushua/Jesus’s God–“God, even Thy God.” This verse negates the whole trinitarian doctrine, which espouses “coequality”: “distinct yet coexist in unity, and are co-equal, co-eternal and consubstantial.” {Wikipedia}. If one part of an equation, i.e. coequality, that comprises a theory/doctrine is found false, then the theory/doctrine itself is proved false and cannot stand. Standing in the Truth that Yahushua/Jesus looks to His God, a Supreme Being above the Divine Diety stature of Yahushua/Jesus Himself, we see the negation of the trinitarian theorized coequality status.

    YHWH extended to Yahushua the use of HIS/YHWH’s Power and Authority to act, to create, {Isaiah 40:10}. The Father’s Name is in the Son, {Exodus 23:21}, meaning Yahushua is of the Essence of, and has been given the use of The Power and Authority of The Father. Though these verses point to Yahushua administering at a level equal to that of Yahuweh, it does not equate to Yahushua being the equal of Yahweh. As an example, when Joseph was given prime ministerialship of Egypt from Pharaoh, using the power and authority that Pharaoh gave to him, this did not make Joseph Pharaoh. Likewise, by virtue of the fact that there is a Source, YHWH, that Yahushua derived His Power and Authority from, this does not make Yahushua (equal to) YHWH.

    Correction to my blog on September 20: The Name YHWH/Yahuweh was translated (in westernized translations) and altered from the original texts to the word “LORD,” (all caps) in the Old Testament, not to the word “God.” It can be said that in the New Testament The Name YHWH/Yahuweh was changed to the word “God.” Yahushua/Jesus is referred to as “Lord,” (1 cap followed by 3 lower case letters) in the New Testament. This grammatical usage, i.e. “LORD” and “Lord,” subtly points to the non-coequality status of both Diety’s.

    Your Brother In Christ,

    Kenneth

    • Barbara LeFevre

      Kenneth~

      This is just a short note to tell you that I have read your latest post. I hope to have something to you in the next 3-4 days.

      Have a blessed day!
      Barbara

  • Barbara LeFevre

    Kenneth~

    I will briefly try to answer your comments about doctrine. As to the rest, I will let the Lord judge between you and Dee and me.

    With regard to the word “Elohim” and your comment that I am seeking an “answer which would suit [my] particular box or viewpoint,” let me, again, clarify what I asked of you because you have, again, misrepresented what I have said. In the first place, the nine definitions that I provided for you were from Strong’s Concordance, not from my own resources, so if you have some concerns that they don’t accurately reflect your view, obviously that has nothing to do with me. Secondly, out of those nine definitions, two of them referred to Elohim as being “the (true) God” and “God,” which I eliminated from your consideration based upon everything YOU had written, that Jesus fitting one of these definitions is not what you accept, so I fail to understand your criticism of me here, either. This leaves seven definitions from which to choose to categorize Jesus. This isn’t a trick question. I merely asked you to “Please furnish the Scripture reference that proves that Jesus is merely ‘divine’ or ‘a mighty one’ at the exclusion of His being God.” Lastly, if you’re going to offer “the Khabouris Codex” and “various other credible texts that support [your] viewpoint,” then you have the burden of proof to provide them. Merely alluding to a source is a fallacy.

    The explanation you give in your second paragraph ends with “…Yahushua/Jesus IS Elohim….The Father is The Supreme Being, Yahushua is not The Supreme Being” cannot be a correct understanding of who Jesus is no matter how many times you use the phrase “Eloah Class Being” for the simple reason is that the word “God” (Elohim), in the only verse you were able to provide to support your theory (Deut. 6:4), is inextricably linked to the word “Yehovah” (Strong’s H3068), and the definition of Jehovah is “the existing One.” It is “the proper name of the one true God.” Yes, God the Father worked through Jesus, and, yes, they were in “unity” as you wrote, but you have written many times, “YHWH-Yahushua” (Aug. 12), which means, according to Strong’s, that He IS “the existing One” because He has “the proper name of the one true God.” Now, if “Yahushua is not The Supreme Being,” then why has He, in Scripture and even by you, been falsely given the name of “Yehovah” to which He has no right? What you are suggesting is that God is a liar and that His Word is not true. To clarify, if Jesus isn’t the “one true God,” then why did God allow a lie into His Word? I prefer to think just the opposite, “God forbid: yea, let God be true, but every man a liar; as it is written, That thou mightest be justified in thy sayings, and mightest overcome when thou art judged” (Rom. 3:4). What this verse is saying, Kenneth, is that God’s Word judges what we say; we don’t judge what it says.

    Regarding the three scriptures you gave, I’m not sure of the relevance of the Judges’ verse. Isolating I John 4:12 from the rest of God’s Word is proof texting because had you included other relevant verses for examination, you would know that it is speaking of God the Father. We can know this because the other verse you cited, John 1:18, actually tells us that it is God the Father that “no man hath seen.” We are also given some other information in this verse that, when harmonized with other Scripture, which is how Scripture is to be understood, demonstrates that Jesus is, indeed, God. John 1:18 says, “No man hath seen God at any time; the only begotten Son, which is in the bosom of the Father, he hath declared [him].” First we are told that “no man” has seen God but that “the only begotten Son” has seen Him. We know this because He is “in the bosom of the Father” and has “declared [him].” We also know that Jesus has seen God because in John 6:38a, He says, “For I came down from heaven.” When we examine the facts that no “man” has seen God but that Jesus has seen God, we know that He isn’t a man. When we view that truth with the fact that there are only three entities above the animal world, God, angels, and man, then Jesus is either God or an angel. Again, reasoning demands that He is God.

    ~Matthew 1:23 – You left something out of your definition of the word “El.” Yes, it very much “conveys the eternal nature of the Messiah,” and because the word means “God,” the title is very clearly interpreted, “God with us,” not ‘God working-through-the-Messiah with us.’ In addition, it is a fallacy to arbitrarily dismiss one thing just because it occurs simultaneously with something else. For example, just because Jesus came to Earth to do the will of the Father doesn’t necessarily negate the idea that He is God. I already explained how “submission doesn’t mean that two entities are not of the same equal essence,” that roles that God or humans perform have nothing to do with their essential “Godness” or “humanness,” respectively. Why are you questioning me about something I already explained?

    ~Matthew 3:3 – Actually, this verse uses the word “Lord,” not “LORD.” The cross reference, as I wrote in my original response, does say “Prepare the way of the LORD,” and “LORD” means “Yĕhovah,” not “Master,” so there is very much a “conveyance of meaning that Jesus is Big-G.” I did read verse 10, and it tells us that this person whom we know to be Jesus (“the Lord God)” is coming with a “strong [hand.” It says that “his [the Lord God Jesus’] arm shall rule for him,” meaning that He has the power within Himself to bring under rule and to rule. In English, a pronoun refers back to its antecedent. To say that the “his” in the phrase “his arm” refers to the Father is illogical because He isn’t even mentioned, here or in the next verse. It’s all about Jesus. Are we to believe that out of the four references to this entity in this verse that three of them are about Jesus but the one isn’t although there is neither anything stated nor implied that it is someone other than Jesus?

    John 10:33-39 – With regard to your first two sentences, you are very adept at incorporating arguments into the mix that have nothing to do with what we are discussing. Why don’t you address what is actually written in this passage? The Pharisees were going to stone Him because He “makest [Himself] God.” He never denied it as He most certainly would have if He weren’t because He never sinned (I Pet. 2:22), and lies of omission are certainly sins, especially one that is blasphemy. They, again, attempted to stone Him (v. 39). I really don’t care that “Yahushua didn’t respond to the Pharisees the way he responded to Pilate” or anyone else, and I’m sure that this is going to be the exact argument you have put forth to rid Jesus of being God in John 20:28 because He had told Peter that He was “Christ, the son of the living God” (Matt. 16:16b). (I just checked, and that’s exactly what you did, so I will just answer it all now.) That anyone could put together such a flimsy argument to rid the Word of God of what it is clearly saying makes no sense to me, but let’s take your argument to its logical end. You are trying to force a limited identity on Jesus, that of being only the Son of God and not the Supreme God by only taking Matthew 16:16 into consideration and not John 20:28. Your argument is based upon the fact that, in the Matthew verse, Peter was “… EXPERIENCING THE POWER OF THE HOLY SPIRIT UPON HIM AS ACKNOWLEDGED BY YAHUSHUA/ JESUS.” Your reasoning here fails because of the one simple truth and that is that “All Scripture [is] given by inspiration of God” (II Tim. 3:16a), meaning that Peter’s experience with the Holy Spirit is no more spiritually true or significant than the rest of Scripture because they were both God-breathed. Therefore, John 20:28 is equally as true as what Peter was told; he just experienced a rhema word from God, something that believers have always received. That you would actually make a distinction, claiming that “These identifications by Peter and John far outweigh Thomas’ identifying proclamation of Jesus as ‘God,’” very much establishes that you not only do not rightly divide the Word of God (II Tim. 2:15), you actually take away from it (Deut. 4:2) to develop doctrine.

    Acts 20:28 – I would think that if you and others spent just a little less time beating the “ekklesia/church” definition to death, perhaps you could move on to some really important truths from Scripture. According to Strong’s “ekklesia” never means “structure.” That the word is also used to mean a building proves nothing except that language evolves, so I think we can safely use the word “church” without losing site of what it is referring to unless you don’t think people are smart enough to understand the difference between a building and a body of believers. That said, let’s move on to something worth discussing. The phrase in question is “the church of God, which he hath purchased with his own blood.” You commented, “I do not read into this that His “purchase” is indicative of His being God.” You then cited John 10:29 to prove that the church is God the Father’s, which is absolutely true, but as Jesus also tells us, “I will build MY church; and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it” (Matt. 16:18b, caps mine), a pretty arrogant thing to say unless it is true. Now, here’s the problem you have with the phrase in question. If the word “God” in Acts 20:28 is referring to God the Father, rather than Jesus, as you believe, then please give the Scripture in support of the rest of the verse, that “he hath purchased with his own blood.” When and where did God the Father purchase anything with “his own blood”?

    ~Philippians 2:6-8 – The only “confusion,” here, is your failure to understand the definition of the Trinity, which I have explained I don’t know how many times. The Trinitarian view not only presumes “that there are two beings,” it presumes that there are three (God the Father + God the Son + God the Holy Spirit = God.) I gave a fairly thorough explanation that you either didn’t read or didn’t understand, so I don’t see any reason to address anything that you wrote. If you didn’t read it, then why are you in this dialogue? If you didn’t understand it, then maybe you need to take some real time and study it because it is very much saying that Jesus is God if read correctly.

    Hebrews 1:8 (Ps. 45:6) – You wrote, “With God in Christ, Christ would be referred to as God, …That doesn’t make Him God.” Are you serious? Do people actually believe this illogical nonsense that you feed them? Christ is being referred to as God, but that doesn’t make Him God? Really? You have done nothing for three months but demand a verse that says that Jesus is God, and then when you are given one, you say that it doesn’t mean He is? Unbelievable.

    You know what? I’m done. I was going to respond to the rest of your comments, but why should I bother? You’re not in this to find the truth. You’re in this to have a forum by which you can foist your illogical conclusions upon others. I have spent three months and countless hours writing answers with logic and biblical support to each one of your objections to the Trinity and Jesus being God. My hope has been that, at some point, you would at least be honest enough to address the very real problems in your reasoning and your conclusions, but you haven’t been, and you never will be unless you take a cold, hard look at what you believe in the light of God’s revealed Word so that you come to sound conclusions rather than the drivel that you’ve given me here or in the past. For example, how can you keep insisting that the concept of the ‘Trinity’ isn’t in the Bible when you can’t even define it, even after three months? How can you say you have the truth when your conclusions are all based upon fallacy, everything from attacking me and others rather than the issue to arguing non-issues to not rightly dividing the Word to offering conclusions without offering proof to proof texting and the list goes on and on. How can you say you are right when you haven’t been able to dismantle even one of my arguments, but I have dismantled every one of yours? How can you say you are right when you are unable to reconcile Scripture? You are very fond of adding the “eyes to see and ears to hear” phrase to your opinions to imply that those who don’t agree with your interpretation of Scripture are walking in blindness, so let me put something before you for consideration. Who is actually blind? Is it me or the person who would actually write, “Christ is being referred to as God, but that doesn’t make Him God”?

    Kenneth, you are wrong, and I am going to continue to hold you up in prayer so that you will actually have the corresponding reality to the phrase “eyes to see and ears to hear.” You don’t need to respond to this because I won’t be coming back. I certainly don’t wish you any ill will, but at some point, I need to cut my losses. At some point reason must be met with reason, and I just can’t abide any longer in your constant refusal to face that fact.

    Barbara